Michael Jackson's attitude towards women in his music

[mj_frenzy]

There's nothing subtle about the title 'Streetwalker'. I'm not convinced Michael is going for subtlety here.

But does he? It's the video that brings in the theme of a high-class prostitute.

This just proves that lyrics are always open to interpretation. I don't understand the lyrics of Who Is It in this way at all. It's the video that presents a story about a prostitute. The lyrics just tell a story of a guy who's girlfriend has left him and he doesn't know who she's been having the affair with. It doesn't really matter, of course, the song *could* be about a prostitute and the deluded client she managed to scam but the lyrics don't make that clear and I don't think they are referring to it in a subtle way, either. It's another Leave Me Alone. The lyrics and the video don't match up but people always now assume that LMA is about media intrusion whereas the lyrics tell a different story.

There's a story here about betrayal, loss and broken dreams. I'm not so convinced WII is about deluded clients and prostitutes.

The 'Who Is It' music video works as an extension of the song.

In other words, it is revealed in that why the woman cheats on him (because she is a high-class prostitute).

It appears that Michael Jackson had an obsession with themes of prostitution in his songs, especially when he was writing and recording songs for the 'BAD' album and for the 'Dangerous' album.

Notice that he also wrote and recorded the 'Do You Know Where Your Children Are' song, which refers to prostitution again (the mother is a prostitute, and her children run away from home and they become victims of prostitution).

 

[SRT99]

PS: I do believe everyone should feel free to express their views here on the forum, but sadly in my opinion this thread is very close to the trolling line.

Don't worry. mj_frenzy has been doing this for years, even before I got on here. He has constantly said things without citing sources, and when he does, he tends to get the interpretation of whatever the source says wrong. He's always had people correcting him and telling him to stop (or telling him to properly cite his sources at the very least), but he keeps fighting it and mostly ignores it, and tends to start things like this. He's sorta like a pariah here with a lot of people.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Don't worry. mj_frenzy has been doing this for years, even before I got on here. He has constantly said things without citing sources, and when he does, he tends to get the interpretation of whatever the source says wrong. He's always had people correcting him and telling him to stop (or telling him to properly cite his sources at the very least), but he keeps fighting it and mostly ignores it, and tends to start things like this. He's sorta like a pariah here with a lot of people.

Yet, in our interaction at one point (in the 'Did Michael Have Any Opinions About Nirvana?' thread), I was able to find the Dave Grohl's quote from the Classic Rock Interview.

It was the quote that you were not able to find although you searched all the websites.

 

[SRT99]

Yet, in our interaction at one point (in the 'Did Michael Have Any Opinions About Nirvana?' thread), I was able to find the Dave Grohl's quote from the Classic Rock Interview.

It was the quote that you were not able to find although you searched all the websites.

Yeah, I may have made a mistake there on my part, but you continue to make mistakes and never really learn. We wouldn't be here if you would just simply cite your sources instead of just saying "according to some sources" or "one source." You found it somewhere, just say where you got it. Easy.

 

[staywild23]

Yeah, I may have made a mistake there on my part, but you continue to make mistakes and never really learn. We wouldn't be here if you would just simply cite your sources instead of just saying "according to some sources" or "one source." You found it somewhere, just say where you got it. Easy.

There's also the issue of ethically citing sources. As in, not misrepresenting their intended meaning to fit our own narratives...

 

[DuranDuran]

but he keeps fighting it and mostly ignores it

Notice he or she never directly responded to what I mentioned about other artists music like The Beatles' Run For Your Life, blues songs, gangsta rap, & Disco Duck.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Yeah, I may have made a mistake there on my part, but you continue to make mistakes and never really learn. We wouldn't be here if you would just simply cite your sources instead of just saying "according to some sources" or "one source." You found it somewhere, just say where you got it. Easy.

Keep in mind that there are certain cases when sources set conditions in order to reveal information.

For example, they want to remain anonymous, hence "according to some sources" or "one source", etc.

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

I'm all for having a discussion about Mike but when MJFrenzy starts posting his "sources" that conveniently back up his point it's tough to remain objective

So here's a quote to back up my point

"Michael Jackson was a once in a lifetime talent and to call him genius is an understatement.
He also LOVED women"
Source : SmoothCriminal1995


I don't mean for this to be a dig at you MJFrenzy, you do have a lot of interesting points but when you won't quote or reveal your sources that help your point it can become tiresome

 

[SRT99]

Keep in mind that there are certain cases when sources set conditions in order to reveal information.

For example, they want to remain anonymous, hence "according to some sources" or "one source", etc.

Either way, you continue to say things without making sure you made a mistake. You never go back and fix it. You continue to misinterpret things that you find, whether intentional or not and let people get onto you for it. When you do cite sources, you never really bother exactly quoting what you found, and sometimes, it seems like you make things up and are just stating opinions. You also like, when you call people out, to go back to older posts they made several years ago and act as if they've never learned. I remember looking through your older posts once and you actually used to properly cite stuff and people didn't constantly hate you for it, but you've done a complete turn of that. You can go back to doing that or still continue to do this and get hate. Listen and understand this or ignore the criticism like you always do.

 

[SRT99]

I'm sorry. I'm tired, and when I got tired, I see stuff like this and I tend to get involved. When I do, I think I may be misremembering things here so I may not be remembering certain things correctly about this person, to begin with. Some of my points still stand though. I have seen him do some things like not citing sources at all and making stuff up out of his a** or calling people out over things that people said six or seven years ago and trying to act like people can never learn. I guess he's learned a little bit because I have seen him recently mentioning where he found his info but it still doesn't look like he really quotes his stuff from what I've seen from everyone and their reactions. I just wish he wouldn't pontificate and say things and state them as fact. He has the ability to fix info that he actually found that may have some misinformation, but I've never really seen him do that. I just don't like seeing people here who want to do stuff like this every day and cause sturs in the forums. Sometimes when he's around and he says something, he has that ability to make a thread become dysfunctional, and for some reason, no one stops him, even himself. I don't think he's really breaking any rules that I know of, but still. I like being here, but when he does stuff like this, it turns me away from that particular thread. What could be just a normal thread where people can talk about something while also saying where they got their info from, he can come into it and turn it on its head.

Anyways, I've rambled long enough. Just wish this person could listen to people and not act like he knows what he is talking about and never correct himself. He thinks he is always right, from what I've seen at least.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Keep in mind that there are certain cases when sources set conditions in order to reveal information.

For example, they want to remain anonymous, hence "according to some sources" or "one source", etc.

You know fine well that people are simply asking where you get your information from. Unless you're implying you have confidential sources linking to the articles you're regurgitating isn't that hard.

 

[Hess]

I have never understood Who Is It as if MJ sings about prostitution. - I do know the video is made that way, but that is not how I think MJ really thought when he wrote the song. - This is more tlike the directors take IMO.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Going by this logic, then why aren't all of those blues, country, gangsta rap, rock, etc artists in jail for all the things they claim to do in their songs? What about horrorcore rap, death metal, & goth music? Although not all blues songs are about sad or bad things happening, the entire genre is largely about that. That's what the word "blues" means. Such as "my woman or man is cheating on me", "my dog left", "I got drunk and got in a fight and shot a man", and so on. Do you think Rick Dees really met a disco duck or Charlie Daniels had a fiddle battle with the devil? I guess Weird Al must like food since many of his songs are about that, He even has a compilation album called The Food Album.

There is a lot of intentional fakeness in the rap genre and you know that.

Most rappers lie in their songs in order to present themselves as wealthy but also as criminal personalities.

That is because success in that genre is measured by mainly two factors: wealth and criminality.

That fakeness is also apparent in their music videos: they are seen driving luxurious and expensive cars or posing in luxurious and expensive houses which actually are not theirs.

On the other hand, Michael Jackson's lyrical content of many of his songs that portray women in a negative light tally with his true beliefs and attitude towards women as expressed to Rabbi Shmuley Boteach.

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

There is a lot of intentional fakeness in the rap genre and you know that.

Most rappers lie in their songs in order to present themselves as wealthy but also as criminal personalities.

That is because success in that genre is measured by mainly two factors: wealth and criminality.

That fakeness is also apparent in their music videos: they are seen driving luxurious and expensive cars or posing in luxurious and expensive houses which actually are not theirs.

On the other hand, Michael Jackson's lyrical content of many of his songs that portray women in a negative light tally with his true beliefs and attitude towards women as expressed to Rabbi Shmuley Boteach.

I don't trust that man as far as I can throw him, sure there is tapes and interviews but he portrays Michael in a more negative light than I believe is true. One of the many people that took advantage of Mike during the 2000's.

The thing is if you've only had bad relationships personally and been aware of bad relationships around you, that's going to effect how you perceive the world.

I'm not absolving Michael completely but it is understandable if every time you open yourself up to somebody they not only betray your trust, but do it on a worldwide scale, by selling their story to tabloids. Naturally you're going to be reluctant to continue down the same path and you will have a bitter perception

 

[DuranDuran]

There is a lot of intentional fakeness in the rap genre and you know that.

Most rappers lie in their songs in order to present themselves as wealthy but also as criminal personalities.

That is because success in that genre is measured by mainly two factors: wealth and criminality.

That fakeness is also apparent in their music videos: they are seen driving luxurious and expensive cars or posing in luxurious and expensive houses which actually are not theirs.

All music must be "fake" then, since pretty much everything in hip hop has been in songs long before it existed. There's the Johnny Cash killing a man to watch him die. Folsom Prison Blues came out in the 1950s. There's pre-hip hop songs that have violence like Bad Leroy Brown (Jim Croce), Freddie's Dead (Curtis Mayfield), The Payback (James Brown), Copacapana (Barry Manilow), Maxwell's Silver Hammer (The Beatles), etc. There's a lot of old R&B, classic rock, & country songs where guys brag about having a lot of women or being good in bed. Morris Day's entire image is about being cool and having money. There's songs in the 1920s about doing drugs, usually reefer or cocaine. Dr. Feelgood by Mötley Crüe & Smuggler's Blues by Glenn Frey are about drug dealers. Roxanne by The Police is about a prostitute and Steely Dan songs are often about deviants & lowlifes.

A lot of oldies are about cars. There's the heavy metal & progressive rock songs about Dungeons & Dragons/Renaissance Faire style topics. Most songs aren't even written by the singer/group performing them. In the entire history of the recording business, a very small percentage of acts self-wrote their songs. It's doubtful that Elton John's songs are about himself, since he only writes the music and the lyrics are written by someone else, usually Bernie Taupin. In the band Rush, the lyrics are usually written by the drummer and not the lead singer. I don't think most of the Beach Boys were really surfer dudes, lol. I don't understand why some people think songs are automatically true and about something that really happened to the singer, when that is not said about any other type of entertainment. I've seen people think that in some music reaction videos. People don't think Al Pacino is really a gangster.

 

[zinniabooklover]

All music must be "fake" then, since pretty much everything in hip hop has been in songs long before it existed. There's the Johnny Cash killing a man to watch him die. Folsom Prison Blues came out in the 1950s. There's pre-hip hop songs that have violence like Bad Leroy Brown (Jim Croce), Freddie's Dead (Curtis Mayfield), The Payback (James Brown), Copacapana (Barry Manilow), Maxwell's Silver Hammer (The Beatles), etc. There's a lot of old R&B, classic rock, & country songs where guys brag about having a lot of women or being good in bed. Morris Day's entire image is about being cool and having money. There's songs in the 1920s about doing drugs, usually reefer or cocaine. Dr. Feelgood by Mötley Crüe & Smuggler's Blues by Glenn Frey are about drug dealers. Roxanne by The Police is about a prostitute and Steely Dan songs are often about deviants & lowlifes.

As a child one of my fave songs was Jimi Hendrix singing 'Hey Joe'. I had no idea then, and still don't know even now, whether Jimi had a negligent attitude towards women but I never had any doubt that he was just singing a song (that he didn't even write). He was telling a story. He wasn't actually condoning violence towards women, imo, or telling us what HE would do if his 'woman done him wrong'. It's probably true that popular music (pop, blues, rock, jazz etc) doesn't always celebrate women in an empowering way and I'm not defending the dubious lyrical content of many popular songs that are out there. But I think it's also true that a lot of the stories in pop music lyrics are just that - stories.

I don't understand why some people think songs are automatically true and about something that really happened to the singer, when that is not said about any other type of entertainment. I've seen people think that in some music reaction videos. People don't think Al Pacino is really a gangster.

Exactly so.

 

[DuranDuran]

As a child one of my fave songs was Jimi Hendrix singing 'Hey Joe'. I had no idea then, and still don't know even now, whether Jimi had a negligent attitude towards women but I never had any doubt that he was just singing a song (that he didn't even write). He was telling a story. He wasn't actually condoning violence towards women, imo, or telling us what HE would do if his 'woman done him wrong'. It's probably true that popular music (pop, blues, rock, jazz etc) doesn't always celebrate women in an empowering way and I'm not defending the dubious lyrical content of many popular songs that are out there. But I think it's also true that a lot of the stories in pop music lyrics are just that - stories.

It's also ironic that mj_frenzy says that something is fake and also is spouting off what critics think. Critics praise artists like John Lennon, who is said to be a "working class hero" and John Mellencamp & Bruce Springsteen, who make songs about the working man and small town life. When all 3 are millionaires, lol. They weren't born rich, but they were while still writing songs about the lower class. Is that all that much different from rappers saying they have bling bling? I've read Springsteen's autobiography, and I think he said he's never had a 9 to 5 job, he's only been a musician since his teen years. Critics also praise David Bowie, who made songs about being an alien from outer space called Ziggy Stardust. What does Bono have to do with singing about Martin Luther King Jr? U2 are from Ireland. Even Chuck D says he likes some Elvis Presley music and think he's talented, Chuck said it was the mainstream perception & praise of Elvis that he doesn't agree with. That he's credited with inventing rock n roll, when that wasn't the case and that Elvis is "The King Of Rock n Roll". Elvis himself did not like that title.

As far as not praising women, that's not just entertainment. That's just the way it's been in everyday life, probably since there's been people. Doesn't Adam blame Eve for eating the fruit that gets them kicked out of the Garden of Eden? There's always been a "casting couch" in the music/movie/TV world.

 

[zinniabooklover]

It's also ironic that mj_frenzy says that something is fake and also is spouting off what critics think. Critics praise artists like John Lennon, who is said to be a "working class hero" and John Mellencamp & Bruce Springsteen, who make songs about the working man and small town life. When all 3 are millionaires, lol. They weren't born rich, but they were while still writing songs about the lower class.

John Lennon had a very middle-class upbringing. I doubt he knew f-all about the working classes - although Paul would have had some idea and Ringo probably did, too. It's like The Clash. Love Joe Strummer but he went to private school, IIRC. He certainly didn't come from a poor background. Doesn't make his music any the less potent. His music and lyrics were great but none of us was buying the backstory.

Is that all that much different from rappers saying they have bling bling? I've read Springsteen's autobiography, and I think he said he's never had a 9 to 5 job, he's only been a musician since his teen years.

It's the genius of lyricists, isn't it (not that I'm claiming Bruce as a genius). They can write about stuff they haven't experienced and capture it in a way us non-musicians just couldn't. And sometimes there might be a tiny kernel of their own story in one particular song but it still won't qualify as autobiographical.

 

[mj_frenzy]

It's also ironic that mj_frenzy says that something is fake and also is spouting off what critics think. Critics praise artists like John Lennon, who is said to be a "working class hero" and John Mellencamp & Bruce Springsteen, who make songs about the working man and small town life. When all 3 are millionaires, lol. They weren't born rich, but they were while still writing songs about the lower class. Is that all that much different from rappers saying they have bling bling? I've read Springsteen's autobiography, and I think he said he's never had a 9 to 5 job, he's only been a musician since his teen years. Critics also praise David Bowie, who made songs about being an alien from outer space called Ziggy Stardust. What does Bono have to do with singing about Martin Luther King Jr? U2 are from Ireland. Even Chuck D says he likes some Elvis Presley music and think he's talented, Chuck said it was the mainstream perception & praise of Elvis that he doesn't agree with. That he's credited with inventing rock n roll, when that wasn't the case and that Elvis is "The King Of Rock n Roll". Elvis himself did not like that title.

These examples do not necessarily cancel all the other fair points that music critics have made in their reviews over the years.

 

[Agonum]

Never thought I'd say this but Frenzy got a point lol.
Another song that was left out that also paints women, or a woman , in an unflattering light is Jane is a groupie

I think he (@mj_frenzy) has presented an interesting topic for discussion, but that the idea of Michael “exhibiting misogynist tendencies” is absurd.

By the way, you could look at it differently, too, by asking yourself what songs he have written about men, and how those men are portrayed. The Jacksons’ That’s What You Get (For Being Polite) (1978) and Michael’s D.S. (1995) comes to mind. The former, despite having the protagonist named ‘Jack’, was autobiographical — as revealed in Moonwalk: “‘That’s What You Get for Being Polite’ was my way of letting on that I knew I wasn’t living in an ivory tower” — while the latter is Michael’s one and only diss song. Go figure.

 

[Agonum]

Hey Midwest, I do think Michael had contempt for women, as a sex. Not every single woman he came across, obviously. Nor am I saying he harmed women or refused to employ them or discriminated against them. There's no harm in admitting he has said rather troubling things about women. It could be a result of many things.

Care to exemplify?

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I think he (@mj_frenzy) has presented an interesting topic for discussion, but that the idea of Michael “exhibiting misogynist tendencies” is absurd.

By the way, you could look at it differently, too, by asking yourself what songs he have written about men, and how those men are portrayed. The Jacksons’ That’s What You Get (For Being Polite) (1978) and Michael’s D.S. (1995) comes to mind. The former, despite having the protagonist named ‘Jack’, was autobiographical — as revealed in Moonwalk: “‘That’s What You Get for Being Polite’ was my way of letting on that I knew I wasn’t living in an ivory tower” — while the latter is Michael’s one and only diss song. Go figure.

Why did you bump an MJ_Frenzy thread? Why would you do that? A plague on your housing. A plague on your balls.

 

[Agonum]

Why did you bump an MJ_Frenzy thread? Why would you do that? A plague on your housing. A plague on your balls.

Gee, that’s an expression I haven’t come across before. “A plague on your housing”. Sounds good!

(What does it mean?)

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Gee, that’s an expression I haven’t come across before. “A plague on your housing”. Sounds good!

(What does it mean?)