Michael May not find justice in our legal system but....

[Ejacobs29]

I have a question...do you think there is a jury in the world, who knew all we know,with all the evidence..would let this doctor walk??

Remember in 2005 with all the damage done to Michael by the media..An all white jury acquitted him of ALL charges. This will be the biggest trial in our countries history. I doubt they could find 12 people who hate Michael enough to let this doctor walk. This DA is wrong in his charges and he is only concerned with his political career.

Spend some time researching Steve Cooley..

 

[honeysucklejasmine]

I have a question...do you think there is a jury in the world, who knew all we know,with all the evidence..would let this doctor walk??

Remember in 2005 with all the damage done to Michael by the media..An all white jury acquitted him of ALL charges. This will be the biggest trial in our countries history. I doubt they could find 12 people who hate Michael enough to let this doctor walk. This DA is wrong in his charges and he is only concerned with his political career.

Spend some time researching Steve Cooley..

I would be very surprised if Murray is not convicted of the charge as it stands - the evidence against him, as we know it, is significant and his actions (or lack thereof) are medically indefensible. I was amazed that the justice system was able to have any say let alone overrule the medical board and allow him to continue to practice. The sanction the judge gave him (ie not being allowed to give "heavy sedation") was a joke. On that basis I worry that he may not be punished to the fullest extent of the law but for him not to serve ANY jail time would be scandalous.

In my opinion I do think the chances of him walking would be greater were the charges changed to Murder 2 - so I'd rather see him convicted of a lesser charge than get off scot free on a higher one - I'm with Mesereau on that. (Btw I do think what was done constitutes Murder 2 under 'dangerous conduct & lack of concern for human life' but convincing a jury of this beyond reasonable doubt would be difficult IMO) *goes off to read about Cooley*

 

[Beachlover]

For those of you who wish to fight with us for MJ, rather than sit around and be critical of others trying to help..please contact The DA and tell him with no Justice for Michael no AG seat for him. This is his site.

http://www.stevecooley.com/about.html

Thanks for your help, Michael needs our help!!!

Here is what I am confused about.

If I insist and push them to go for Murder just because I personally want to see Dr. Murray suffer because he is the sole cause of Michaels death, then I am also taking a gamble that IF there really isn't enough evidence to convict Dr. Murray in a court of law by a jury of Murder, then he will walk?

So, basically you are asking all of the fans here who have not seen the evidence and the complete police investigation, nor the complete toxicity report from his hair, nor spoken to everyone in the house, the EMT's themselves, or the physicians at the hospital.......to take YOUR word for this and to ignore what the DA feels is the right thing to do?

So, I assume you know for sure that Dr. Murray will be convicted and not walk away entirely? You are sure of this?

You are willing to take this gamble and at the same time you are willing to trash the name of Cooley who is actually ON OUR SIDE in all of this?

 

[Beachlover]

Emoonwalker,

We seem to be talking about 2 different things here. I don't know where you live but what I am saying is the DA office IN LA has not been successful in trying high profile case's. They lost OJ ( Gil Garcetti, DA at the time) they lost Robert Blake and they had to do the Spector case twice to just barely get a conviction. Do you understand what I am trying to explain? It's DA's office track Record. Steve Cooley is the current DA. If he had waited for LAPD to finish their case and went to a GJ they could have come up with a higher charge. This DA is running for a higher office and wanted a win, more than he wanted Justice for Michael. The Autopsy showed such high levels of propofol ( amount unknown, pending toxicology) That it was seeping from his eyes!! That is not 25milg. as Murray stated! Murray lied, he did not try to save Michael and we want Justice. Our only recourse is at the polls. November 2, 2010. If you do not wish to help, that is fine. No one is forcing you to.

Can you explain what you mean by if he had waited?

The fans here were chomping at the bit DEMANDING, CALLING the office, EMAILING and SCREAMING for a conviction. Wait longer? Are you serious? No one wanted to wait here. They wanted this man brought in sooner, like 3 days later.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

I was amazed that the justice system was able to have any say let alone overrule the medical board

they didnt overrule. the medical board asked the judge to pull his licence i think as a part of the bail condiditions as it takes a while to go through the process of pulling his licence if u go through the normal process. so the medical board saw this is a quicker option (dont know how much it is done in cases?) the judge refused but said no diprivan etc. sothe medical board is going through the process of pulling his licence the standard way

 

[elusive moonwalker]

I would be very surprised if Murray is not convicted of the charge as it stands - the evidence against him, as we know it, is significant and his actions (or lack thereof) are medically indefensible. I was amazed that the justice system was able to have any say let alone overrule the medical board and allow him to continue to practice. The sanction the judge gave him (ie not being allowed to give "heavy sedation") was a joke. On that basis I worry that he may not be punished to the fullest extent of the law but for him not to serve ANY jail time would be scandalous.

In my opinion I do think the chances of him walking would be greater were the charges changed to Murder 2 - so I'd rather see him convicted of a lesser charge than get off scot free on a higher one - I'm with Mesereau on that. (Btw I do think what was done constitutes Murder 2 under 'dangerous conduct & lack of concern for human life' but convincing a jury of this beyond reasonable doubt would be difficult IMO) *goes off to read about Cooley*

yeah i agree pretty much with that

 

[ivy]

I have a question...do you think there is a jury in the world, who knew all we know,with all the evidence..would let this doctor walk??

Spend some time researching Steve Cooley..

speaking from purely statistical research info - doctors are hardest person to convict and the reasons are psychological. it's rooted in the cognitive dissonance theory. people believe that doctors are good people and they goal is to help people. (remember the oath) therefore it is very hard for people to accept that doctors can be bad or have malice - if they do nobody will be able to trust a doctor with their health and life. in order to overcome this negative conflict people generally will classify doctors actions as an "accident"..

don't get me wrong - I want to see Murray to be found guilty and convicted but also I think higher charges such as Murder 2 will increase the chance of him walking away free and that's something that I don't want for certain. I'm still sticking with T-mez.

 

[honeysucklejasmine]

they didnt overrule. the medical board asked the judge to pull his licence i think as a part of the bail condiditions as it takes a while to go through the process of pulling his licence if u go through the normal process. so the medical board saw this is a quicker option (dont know how much it is done in cases?) the judge refused but said no diprivan etc. sothe medical board is going through the process of pulling his licence the standard way

Hi, that's interesting...I'm surprised the medical board does not have an independent procedure in place for relatively prompt license suspension as they do here (UK). If what you say is true and the board has deferred to the judge to suspend Murray because their own official process is too slow then that is negligent of the board as they are knowingly allowing other patients to be put at risk. I expect this would leave them wide open to litigation (and rightly so) should another patient come to harm under the 'care' of Murray. I agree he has been prevented from sedating patients but the board has no knowledge as to whether the rest of his medical conduct can be deemed safe until THEY investigate. I can only hope his license is revoked soon because he (and the rest of the Dr Feelgoods out there) are an insult to Drs who do uphold 'first do no harm'.

Apologies to the mods if this has drifted off topic

 

[ivy]

honeysucklejasmine - it is a slow process in US unfortunately. furthermore every state medical board has to do their own licence suspension. for example now California is trying to suspend his licence even if they succeed and even if they can get it suspended quickly, Murray can still practice medicine in Texas as Texas is not trying to suspend/revoke his licence.

 

[ensleyave]

He should be suspended until their investigation is complete. We need new procedures. What you said about drs. facing prosecution and getting convicted is right on. I have posted about docs and law inforcement and our view of them in this country. Sometimes they do have malice and we need to really and open heartedly look at each case individually and not as a profession either way to decide.

 

[honeysucklejasmine]

honeysucklejasmine - it is a slow process in US unfortunately. furthermore every state medical board has to do their own licence suspension. for example now California is trying to suspend his licence even if they succeed and even if they can get it suspended quickly, Murray can still practice medicine in Texas as Texas is not trying to suspend/revoke his licence.

I know...it's very frustrating and the beaurocracy of the system defies logic.

 

[Ashtanga]

This is the YT links for it. Its in parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxJyE...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgD4C...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeF4c...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=105yQ...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC4Lh...layer_embedded

Thanks! Well, now I need courage to watch it.

 

[Autumn II]

Here is what I am confused about.

If I insist and push them to go for Murder just because I personally want to see Dr. Murray suffer because he is the sole cause of Michaels death, then I am also taking a gamble that IF there really isn't enough evidence to convict Dr. Murray in a court of law by a jury of Murder, then he will walk?

Thanks for your post. I will consider carefully. First, there are some assumptions here that have not been proven, in part because there is much that is unknown, and in part because there may be things that are known by the LAPD and the DA, but are not known to the general, interested, public. We do not KNOW that Murray was the "sole cause of Michael's death." We have no way of knowing that, yet. I'm not saying there was a conspiracy, or there was not, but just that we do not know. None of us do.

So, basically you are asking all of the fans here who have not seen the evidence and the complete police investigation, nor the complete toxicity report from his hair, nor spoken to everyone in the house, the EMT's themselves, or the physicians at the hospital.......to take YOUR word for this and to ignore what the DA feels is the right thing to do?

I dont' think ANYONE is asking this? Just because we do not know everything, does not mean we know nothing. This is complicated. The law is never simple, or completely untainted. There is the ideal, and there is the messiness of personalities and conflicting interests. For one thing, politics always play a part, in pretty much everything? This D.A. is running for Attorney General. To me, that is significant. We don't yet know the effects one way or another, but there surely are some. There are those on this board who played an important role in the trial, mostly because journalists read here, and the Santa Barbara Police Department read here, and even if we did not "testify," in a sense, our information kept them more honest. It's called "freedom of the press," and believe it or not, message boards like this ARE a kind of "press" in that our words are widely read. This board is IMPORTANT, and what we say here is important.

So, I assume you know for sure that Dr. Murray will be convicted and not walk away entirely? You are sure of this?

Nothing is certain when it comes to a jury.

You are willing to take this gamble and at the same time you are willing to trash the name of Cooley who is actually ON OUR SIDE in all of this?

I certainly would not "trash" Cooley. I don't know him. I am also not convinced that he is on "our side." I have only one side at this point, and that is hoping, HOPING, that the truth comes out, whatever it is, and that Michael achieves justice, and that his children do.

Would I be willing to take this gamble? I do not speak for ANYONE else, ok. Personally, YES. It would be worth the risk, to me personally. If Murray did more than make a simple mistake, to ME (and not speaking for anyone else here), I would be willing to take that risk to find out the truth. If Murray walks, that would be terrible. If the entire truth would come out at a civil suit, that would be acceptable to me. It actually WOULD, because at least we would know, and then God, or karma, or whatever one may believe, would take care of Murray. It would be worth it to me, to KNOW. I fully respect that others may feel differently.

Peace,

Victoria

 

[Beachlover]

Thanks for your post. I will consider carefully. First, there are some assumptions here that have not been proven, in part because there is much that is unknown, and in part because there may be things that are known by the LAPD and the DA, but are not known to the general, interested, public. We do not KNOW that Murray was the "sole cause of Michael's death." We have no way of knowing that, yet. I'm not saying there was a conspiracy, or there was not, but just that we do not know. None of us do.

I dont' think ANYONE is asking this? Just because we do not know everything, does not mean we know nothing. This is complicated. The law is never simple, or completely untainted. There is the ideal, and there is the messiness of personalities and conflicting interests. For one thing, politics always play a part, in pretty much everything? This D.A. is running for Attorney General. To me, that is significant. We don't yet know the effects one way or another, but there surely are some. There are those on this board who played an important role in the trial, mostly because journalists read here, and the Santa Barbara Police Department read here, and even if we did not "testify," in a sense, our information kept them more honest. It's called "freedom of the press," and believe it or not, message boards like this ARE a kind of "press" in that our words are widely read. This board is IMPORTANT, and what we say here is important.

Nothing is certain when it comes to a jury.

I certainly would not "trash" Cooley. I don't know him. I am also not convinced that he is on "our side." I have only one side at this point, and that is hoping, HOPING, that the truth comes out, whatever it is, and that Michael achieves justice, and that his children do.

Would I be willing to take this gamble? I do not speak for ANYONE else, ok. Personally, YES. It would be worth the risk, to me personally. If Murray did more than make a simple mistake, to ME (and not speaking for anyone else here), I would be willing to take that risk to find out the truth. If Murray walks, that would be terrible. If the entire truth would come out at a civil suit, that would be acceptable to me. It actually WOULD, because at least we would know, and then God, or karma, or whatever one may believe, would take care of Murray. It would be worth it to me, to KNOW. I fully respect that others may feel differently.

Peace,

Victoria

I guess what I am saying simply is that I feel it is not worth taking the chance.

It is the DA that is trying the case. They are the ones with the evidence in their hands. They are the ones with the full knowledge of the law. They are the ones that have only blamed Murray and I haven't heard any talk of others being involved.

Since they are the ones who basically have all the interviews and know the case, and they made this decision, and also T MEZ stated that this is what he would do in light of the evidence he knew of, I am inclinded to stick with their original charge and hope they can prove it and win the case.

The family can file a civil suit in any case.

None of this will bring 'justice' to me either way. I guess I am too philosophical in my thinking but I still feel that Michael was treated badly for too long and by too many and convicting Murray is not going to bring my heart justice for all that was done to Michael, nor should Murray be responsible for that anyway.

Even if Murray went to jail for the rest of his life it would not change the past and that is the shame of it.

 

[Autumn II]

I guess what I am saying simply is that I feel it is not worth taking the chance.

And I do feel it's worth taking the chance. Respectfully, agree to disagree, here. To me ANYTHING is worth the pain of not ever really knowing. .

I want to HEAR the testimony of Murray, of the body-guards, of the family, of Randy Philips, of Kenny Ortega, of the Follower Fans, of Frank DiLeo, of Tohme Tohme, of the medical experts, and of everyone who possibly knows anything. To me, it's worth the risk. I respect that others may feel differently . .

 

[MJearthsong]

And I do feel it's worth taking the chance. Respectfully, agree to disagree, here. To me ANYTHING is worth the pain of not ever really knowing. .

I want to HEAR the testimony of Murray, of the body-guards, of the family, of Randy Philips, of Kenny Ortega, of the Follower Fans, of Frank DiLeo, of Tohme Tohme, of the medical experts, and of everyone who possibly knows anything. To me, it's worth the risk. I respect that others may feel differently . .

Of course. Worth it. At least they would try to get some justice. Now I dont even care, with IM he will walk away, seriously, or have a year or two. That's not justice.

 

[Beachlover]

And I do feel it's worth taking the chance. Respectfully, agree to disagree, here. To me ANYTHING is worth the pain of not ever really knowing. .

I want to HEAR the testimony of Murray, of the body-guards, of the family, of Randy Philips, of Kenny Ortega, of the Follower Fans, of Frank DiLeo, of Tohme Tohme, of the medical experts, and of everyone who possibly knows anything. To me, it's worth the risk. I respect that others may feel differently . .

Silly question, but don't they also testify in manslaughter trials too?

 

[Autumn II]

Of course. Worth it. At least they would try to get some justice. Now I dont even care, with IM he will walk away, seriously, or have a year or two. That's not justice.

Thanks. At this point, I don't really care, either, if he "walks." I realize that others may believe differently, but I do believe there is a higher power where justice ultimately resides. The pain of not knowing, is too much for many of us, and I'm sure his children deserve to know. Punishment for Murray will not bring Michael back. But KNOWING, and hearing the testimonies, regardless of the outcome, will bring closure to many of us.

I think the charges were too light. At this moment in time, I do not really CARE. I just want everyone who has something to say, to be able to say it. God will take care of the rest, I choose to believe.

 

[Beachlover]

Victoria, don't they also testify in an IM case also?

 

[Autumn II]

Victoria, don't they also testify in an IM case also?

Sure they would. I happen to believe that the charges were too light, for whatever reasons. I respect others who think the charges were correct. We can't change the charges. I just want the truth to be told, and I'm sorry they did not go for a higher charge, and take the risk. That's it. That is my opinion. Others may have different opinions.

 

[KJ777]

I would hope whoever has pertinent information about Michael's death would be allowed to come forward and testify during trial with what they know, so that those who cared about Michael Jackson know for themselves what happened to him. I think he is owed that much...anyone is. If for whatever reason they are not called during trial, I hope they would have the courage to speak up anyway. The hell he went through...the constant lies told on his name for so many years by the same system seeking "justice" now for him is ironic. Can't say that I have any faith in it...but I do believe someone knows something. Knowing the truth is so important for peace of mind, if not closure.