Michael - The Great Album Debate

:doh::no:

thank you for retrieving my grocery list! But, wooden beam? :scratch: :lol:

EDIT: Love, do you remember when kopwatcher tried to start a campaign which involved both doubters and believers? There was a lot of apathy amongst the believers ('meh, Mike's not here, what does he care? It's just the nature of posthumous releases') and the action didn't go through....We need BOTH sides to do anything effectively...
 
Exactly, that's just it. Even from the perspective of someone who just wants to make money, I don't see why they did not decide to take the Cascio tracks off the album after the initial backlash. I guess they underestimated the negative response that would follow after the release, but still, concerns had already been expressed about these tracks by people involved with the project and Michael's family members. Why run the risk?

If they'd have issued a statement in November saying that the decision was made to pull the Cascio tracks off the album, all would have been fine. We might have discussed the Cascio tracks as an intruiging subject, like a "wtf happened there?" topic, but other than that, we would have all enjoyed and focused on the album.

That's something that confuses me as well..Like I hear people say "Well Sony/Estate are a buisness they just want to make money." but putting 'controversial' material and altering lyrics like they did for Hollywood Tonight is not a way AT ALL to maximize profit..Michael is the highest selling artist of all time for a reason, his musical vision sells..Yet they opted to put some tracks with an odd voice and change up the original concepts of his songs..It's like, what the hell?

Also like you said, it's very odd how even with all the concerns about the authenticity from fans and his family that they just went a long with it..I don't know if they were underestimating the negative response, being naive or they honestly meant for it to happen this way but I don't see how anyone can defend the way they have handled this album. All I know is they better clean up their act before they release another album of his, otherwise they shouldn't bother releasing anything until someone else takes charge.
 
see, from everything I wrote you chose only this part - banning and deleting videos. this is the focus of the doubters community now, instead of trying to reach out to more fans and start a campaign, people talk about how unfairly they are being treated. I don't know all the details why each particular person was banned. But the doubters are being rude while discussing the songs, and they don't even realize it themselves. Sometimes talk becomes very hostile. The other side can be rude as well, I remember one of the most adamant believers (is that what you call us? :) ) whose name I can't recall now was banned because he was very rude to the other side. I agree that the doubters get more bans. But I don't think it's because the moderators are biased but because the doubters talk more about it. I don't see a lot of discussion about this matter from the believers, because they just enjoy the songs and don't participate in these threads for the most part. So the doubters are the only ones who talk about it and the discussions become heated and people can banned. That's how I see this whole situation.

Anyway, all this unfair treatment that you believe is going on should not stop you if you want to find the truth. You should stop discussing the same thing over and over and over and start acting.

I know you are not a follower of this discussion. But, I want to let you know that some of the most uncalled for comments and rudest comments are actually left by people who supposedly enjoy the songs.

Some comments I personally received are the likes of "get a life", "make real friends", "stupid", "whinner", etc...

Rude behavior comes from both sides. Actually, if people enjoy the songs, see no problem and have nothing to prove, why do they feel the need to be insulting to others? :scratch:

This is not directed to you at all. Just a question that I have on my mind now.
 
EDIT: Love, do you remember when kopwatcher tried to start a campaign which involved both doubters and believers? There was a lot of apathy amongst the believers ('meh, Mike's not here, what does he care? It's just the nature of posthumous releases') and the action didn't go through....We need BOTH sides to do anything effectively...

Exactly! How do I explain it... We actually did act upon our words. But, whenever we tried to start, we are met by a lot of apathy. Many people actually prefer to have "new" music than no music...

This is not an easy campaign. Although I think we have commonground, I'm just delusional.
 
The issue is that the Estate doesn't have a clue what's a job perfectly done, cuz they ARE businessmen and they trust the ones who are supposed to do their job - SONY music. But SONY music cares about its own publicity and that's why they do not promote MJ; they promote themselves by putting the name Michael Jackson next to SONY Music.
 
The issue is that the Estate doesn't have a clue what's a job perfectly done, cuz they ARE businessmen and they trust the ones who are supposed to do their job - SONY music. But SONY music cares about its own publicity and that's why they do not promote MJ; they promote themselves by putting the name Michael Jackson next to SONY Music.

They really need to hire people to be in charge of the artistic side of things, to ensure that the products we get are Michael's vision or as close as possible to it can be..but I'm not sure if the executors will do that, they probably would have by now if they were going to. =\
 
they promote themselves by putting the name Michael Jackson next to SONY Music.

This. It all boils down to the same problem: People/businesses/'friends' that use MJ's name to promote and gain money. Yet, the issue of vocal authenticity gets swept under the rug, but when Aaron Carter uses MJ's name, then we jump all over it and start campaigning (which is awesome!), but why can't we do the same when it comes to Michael's musical integrity? Do fans want authentic music the way Michael left it, or just anything that's thrown at them to satisfy the thirst?
 
This. It all boils down to the same problem: People/businesses/'friends' that use MJ's name to promote and gain money. Yet, the issue of vocal authenticity gets swept under the rug, but when Aaron Carter uses MJ's name, then we jump all over it and start campaigning (which is awesome!), but why can't we do the same when it comes to Michael's musical integrity? Do fans want authentic music the way Michael left it, or just anything that's thrown at them to satisfy the thirst?

What Sony did with the album Michael and Vision an what Aaron Carter did are the same thing at the end of the day - profiting from Michael Jackson's name.
 
What Sony did with the album Michael and Vision an what Aaron Carter did are the same thing at the end of the day - profiting from Michael Jackson's name.

Well when you see that MJ's own father is encouraging his friend live on CNN -four days after MJ's death- to promote blu-ray and new technologies, why wouldn't many so called friends do the same a year or two after?

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Considering Michael left NOTES on how he wanted the songs. "do a smooth bass line on Hollywood" and he had lyrics for a bridge? why couldnt they use that, i understand Teddy may have wanted more artistic royalties...but its not Mochael Jackson ft. Teddy Reily....its just Michael Jackson. Michaels emotion for Hollywood, was not to pass and make it, but to fail and go back home. Mistake #1 - Changing Michael's Vision

Cascio tracks....im sure its been said allready. Just dont put them on a album. Mistake #2- Dont put questionable songs on Michael's posthumous albums

Finally, if you seriously want to make money. Promote the Album, let the common citizen know its being released. Advertise. Advertise. Advertise. I cant stress that enough. Put a few million in to run a "Buy MICHAEL, the posthumous album from the greatest artist thats ever lived" campiagn. Mistake #3 -Dont underadvertise, Michael Jackson can and will sell music....if its promoted right. just look at Invincible, that could have easiley made $30 Million, with Music videos, and more radio airplay.
 
Considering Michael left NOTES on how he wanted the songs. "do a smooth bass line on Hollywood" and he had lyrics for a bridge? why couldnt they use that, i understand Teddy may have wanted more artistic royalties...but its not Mochael Jackson ft. Teddy Reily....its just Michael Jackson. Michaels emotion for Hollywood, was not to pass and make it, but to fail and go back home. Mistake #1 - Changing Michael's Vision

Cascio tracks....im sure its been said allready. Just dont put them on a album. Mistake #2- Dont put questionable songs on Michael's posthumous albums

Finally, if you seriously want to make money. Promote the Album, let the common citizen know its being released. Advertise. Advertise. Advertise. I cant stress that enough. Put a few million in to run a "Buy MICHAEL, the posthumous album from the greatest artist thats ever lived" campiagn. Mistake #3 -Dont underadvertise, Michael Jackson can and will sell music....if its promoted right. just look at Invincible, that could have easiley made $30 Million, with Music videos, and more radio airplay.

MJ's music sells anyway, be it a new or an old album, for SONY it doesn't make a difference, they cash in anyway.
 
^^sadly, many people saw Michael Jackson as an ATM machine even when he's here with us. The difference is that when he's here with us. Nobody dared to compromise Michael's artistic integrity. Now, he's gone. The artistic integrity he spent his whole life building is already abused.

Again, tabloid junks come and go in no time. In five years, nobody will remember what Aaron Carter said in 2011. But, Michael's arts will remain forever.
 
Well why dont we do something and stand up to the people that are abusing his artistic vision? I mean, obv the estate only cares about their name being cleared, and Sony is only in it for money and they will just slap a album together. Why dont the fans have some control? Most of us here would like to see: DYKWYCA, STTR, Hot Street, Niteline, D.I.E, and I am the Loser, on future albums.
 
^^ Exactly, that has absolutely nothing to do with monkeys or their balls :nono:
 
Well why dont we do something and stand up to the people that are abusing his artistic vision? I mean, obv the estate only cares about their name being cleared, and Sony is only in it for money and they will just slap a album together. Why dont the fans have some control? Most of us here would like to see: DYKWYCA, STTR, Hot Street, Niteline, D.I.E, and I am the Loser, on future albums.

It really is extremely difficult to get all the fans together as a group like an "unofficial Estate" to protect Michael's artistic legacy. It's because fans are not on the same page on this matter.

First, let me put a disclaimer. In no way, I'm suggesting a group of fans is "better" or more "loyal" than another group. We are all fans. Period.

Different people have different musical taste and different preference. For instance, I see the song Monster as an insult to Michael. It's like a slap to his face. The vocals are distorted. The production is horrible. The lyrics are mediocre. However, to others, Monster is a masterpiece. Some here suggested the song features Michael's "best vocals". Some here prefer the album Michael to Michael's prior works. Some here wants a "new" album than no album. Some wants pieces of Michael than no Michael.

There is no right or wrong. It's just that we are not on the same page. Many fans just don't see anything wrong with the Estate and Sony. So, how can we act together?

The Aaron Carter stunt is a clear cut. Aaron Carter's behavior is questionable. No fan would argue that.
 
Also, something I argued back when I was a believer, while the songs are fake and threaten his artistic vision/integrity greatly, they don't necessarily do any immediate harm if that makes any sense.

Aaron Carter saying he was given wine and cocaine from MJ is a really directly hurtful thing to Michael and his family, friends and fans.

The Cascio songs, on the other hand, don't make out Michael in a negative light(message-wise I'm speaking), they are more deceptive.
 
Also, something I argued back when I was a believer, while the songs are fake and threaten his artistic vision/integrity greatly, they don't necessarily do any immediate harm if that makes any sense.

Aaron Carter saying he was given wine and cocaine from MJ is a really directly hurtful thing to Michael and his family, friends and fans.

The Cascio songs, on the other hand, don't make out Michael in a negative light(message-wise I'm speaking), they are more deceptive.

Yup. The Cascio songs, no matter how average they are, are not going to mimimize Stranger in Moscow. Billie Jean is still as great as it is, Cascio tracks or not. So, many fans see no harm, but something to gain. Hey, we did get a new album, didn't we?

Some might argue that we need posthumous release to reinforce Michael's legacy. Again, who can say who's right and who's wrong? Different people choose to honor Michael differently. While I see the new album is everything against what Michael fought so hard for in his life, others view the new album as a "gift" from the Estate.

This will be an endless debate. I hope people see why it's so difficult to ACT. It's not that we never act upon our words. It's just so challeging to get everyone on the same page. It's not just a petition or an open letter. We are talking about the way we view Michael, as an artist and how his legacy shall be preserved and respected.
 
Well i still think we should band together as fans and create an unnoffical estate.

The example you stated: Monster as a masterpeice/Monster as a horrible peice of production. This can be overcome with compromise as we all like the same thing: Michael's Music. For the record i like Monster, i think its a wonderful piece. Do i have my doubts about it? of course. Is it something that compares to Billie Jean, Who is it, or Speechless? No.
A Second arguement is the posthumous release. Some want them, some dont. and if the releases are released:
1. Would they contain the Casico Matrial if evidence is released along with it?
2. Would the songs be finished following Michael's notes?
3. or would we leave them the way they were left?
4. or would we pull a Teddy Reilly?



http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/117568-quot-Unoffical-Estate-quot?p=3430260#post3430260
 
BUMP!

Where's everyone at? Keep the discussion going. Maybe when we get to page 1000, then this debate can finally be over. Until then, however, we must keep treading along.

love is magical, Arklove, all the rest of you Michael Jackson fans! The discussion at Maximum-Jackson is slow too. :(
 
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