Latest on MJJC
BUMPER SNIPPET
Guests
Well it's your opinion, but I seriously doubt Bruce listened to Michael's voice as relentlessly as MJ hard core fans among which there are experts and professionals and who completely disagree. Only the fact that you need to evoke experts to tell you who's voice it is is extremely disturbing for fans in general.
I never needed Bruce to tell me who sings any other song except the Cascios' ones. How relieving...NOT!
I'm not convinced that Bruce knows Michael's voice better than some fans. Bruce never had to differentiate between Michael and a really good impersonator before. His job never required him to analyze vocal tracks to determine if they're really Michael.
Agreed....I don't need any 'experts', Teddy Riley, the Cascios, the Jackson family, the comparisons to determine what I'm hearing...To me, that's absurd..I've been listening to this man since I was a child...All of a sudden, we're to rely on what these people tell me I"m hearing when that's never had to happen before? On top of it all, there is absolutely zero evidence that Michael even recorded these songs...
love is magical
Proud Member
Interesting point! Bruce Swedien is one talented sound engineer. He's definitely a genius and one of the best in his field. But, he's not a forensic singing voice recognition expert. Does his job require him to read wave form analysis and have in-depth knowledge of human anatomy? Mind you, I'm not discrediting Mr. Swedien. He has my utmost respect. But, he's an engineer. He has a good working knowledge on which mic to use, how to mix a record and what sonic quality of the intruments are. When recording with Michael, Bruce did not just focus on Michael's voice, did he? He had to also listen to the instrumentations, the harmonies and the background vocals. He has a good pair of ears in music in general. He knows how to capture sound in its best form. However, he's not a forensic audiologist. It's fair to say there are very few working forensic singing voice recognition experts. This field is simply not practical (a rapist or a terrorist is not likely to sing while commiting a crime.) While much resource was spent on speech recognition throughout the year, there is still a long way to go for singing voice recognition technology.
I added this one before I'm not sure if you saw it
edited to add: and both in academia and in legal testimony credentials is everything. so again technically a guy with a PhD and with 20 years expertise in voice recognition would be > than a 20 year MJ fan.
this is the reality. If this was to see a courtroom and they got Swedien on stand and when he explained his credentials, history etc he would be more knowledgeable than any fan.
and you should know this in your personal life. why are you doing the job you are doing and people trusting your evaluations? because you have the expertise and credentials.
It's pure reality.
sure experts can be wrong. it's just they are "less likely" to be wrong.
and don't you find it hilarious that one hand we see "experts can be wrong" argument and on the other hand we see "I can't be wrong" argument? and that's why a fan would never be taken seriously.
Frankyboy5
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2011
- Messages
- 1,389
- Points
- 48
It could be that when they mean background vocals they mean stuff like "hooo!" "hooohohooouuu" or "aaoww!!"
I'm of the opinion that there is almost no, if any, MJ in the background vocals.
SHE WAS MY BAYBE - James Porte
People stabbin ur back - James Porte
Another thing I wonder is SINGING the Cascio tracks. As as a tribute artist I find them EXTREMELY easy to sing. Something like Behind the Mask, Beat it at its original pitch, and even stuff from Invincible are a struggle to sing because MJ uses the high voice which is not falsetto. Best of Joy is also pretty hard to switch from head voice to falsetto and back. The vocals in Cascio are pretty easy to do, as with Jason's songs.
I'm of the opinion that there is almost no, if any, MJ in the background vocals.
SHE WAS MY BAYBE - James Porte
People stabbin ur back - James Porte
Another thing I wonder is SINGING the Cascio tracks. As as a tribute artist I find them EXTREMELY easy to sing. Something like Behind the Mask, Beat it at its original pitch, and even stuff from Invincible are a struggle to sing because MJ uses the high voice which is not falsetto. Best of Joy is also pretty hard to switch from head voice to falsetto and back. The vocals in Cascio are pretty easy to do, as with Jason's songs.
StellaJackson
Proud Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2008
- Messages
- 2,767
- Points
- 83
Ivy, I skimmed through your answers but when I saw that you haven't listened to Burn 2Nite there is no point in discussing this any further with you. One thing I will say, you state you aren't that invested in this topic yet you seem to spend plenty of time in here tearing apart the things that people say. But hey, we are only fans so who cares for our opninion? Absolutely disgusting. I'm done.
you do realize that for months I haven't written a single thing about the songs and I only stopped here weeks later to give a friendly warning to you to not "divide" the fans and not to disrespect their opinions? so if you are going to accuse me with something at least accuse me with something that I do.
then you asked me a bunch of questions, even though I kept it short I still spent time to answer them all. and is this your response? just because I haven't listened to burn2nite, I'm not good enough for you to respond? Please get off your high horse. Only 1 question was about burn2nite and most of them wasn't even dependent on that song. see what I'm saying? if you want answers you need to show respect. If you aren't going to show respect then there's no sense in asking questions to start with.
and I'm sorry that I not only READ your questions but SPENT time to answer them. Don't worry I won't make the mistake of "valuing the fellow fan" again..
StellaJackson
Proud Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2008
- Messages
- 2,767
- Points
- 83
Agree with this. it's not only absurd but a little offensive as well. As the fans who ultimately put our money down for Michael products it is our opinion that is the most important. The fans are indeed the experts when it comes to Michael's voice. If we don't believe songs are genuine then we will vote with our feet. The controversy killed this record. I hope they learn from the mistake of using Cupeta tracks.
^^ Ivy, you say that you've come in here to give a friendly warning not to 'divide' the fans, but the reality is that the fanbase IS divided....I find it unfair to be blaming the fans for this mess...Giving warnings to say WE'RE dividing the fans is even further dividing the fans!..Let's not play the blame game....We're just trying to get to the bottom of this. Also, I think simple questions asked to the believers doesn't mean we're out to belittle anyone. It's just questions that are really never answered, not necessarily by you, but in general, I mean....
There are those who believe the tracks are real and those who don't. That's the way it is. Don't blame the fans...That's disrespectful to us just as belittling an opinion is disrespectful to you and others who don't share the same opinion. This is not meant to start an argument, I'm tired of that, but I just wanted to point that out..
That's all I'm saying.
There are those who believe the tracks are real and those who don't. That's the way it is. Don't blame the fans...That's disrespectful to us just as belittling an opinion is disrespectful to you and others who don't share the same opinion. This is not meant to start an argument, I'm tired of that, but I just wanted to point that out..
That's all I'm saying.
Last edited:
StellaJackson
Proud Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2008
- Messages
- 2,767
- Points
- 83
I tend to agree with Bumper that after Burn 2nite there is nothing left to debate. We can only hope they don't use any more Cascio tracks. Having said, there may be a monster lingering around Cirque Du Soleil...
And yes Arklove, the very fact that the fan base is so divided in itself is proof that there is something wrong with these songs. The controversy only surrounds tracks from that session, which says an awful lot. If Michael's own fans can't recognise him in a bunch of songs from one mysterious session which has no supporting evidence, but do recognise the characteristics of a known impersonator, then clearly there is a problem.
And yes Arklove, the very fact that the fan base is so divided in itself is proof that there is something wrong with these songs. The controversy only surrounds tracks from that session, which says an awful lot. If Michael's own fans can't recognise him in a bunch of songs from one mysterious session which has no supporting evidence, but do recognise the characteristics of a known impersonator, then clearly there is a problem.
Last edited:
I know that fan base is divided and I'm not blaming fans for that. For me saying that "how can some people yet still defend these songs" is further diving the fans. Like you said it's the way it is that there are some fans that believe the songs to be "real" so why is their belief is being questioned?
turn the tables around. would you enjoy poster in this thread calling you "some people" and keep mentioning that they can't believe your non-stop discussion of this issue and question your thought process? would that make you feel all nice and fine?
and "can't believing" to what other people "yet still" think brings nothing to the table in regards to "getting to the bottom" of this. Like I always say you have your ideas and opinions, defend that, express that, explain that. You don't need to question other people to win an argument.
StellaJackson
Proud Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2008
- Messages
- 2,767
- Points
- 83
Let The Monster Go is awesome!!! Lol.
Jesta
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2011
- Messages
- 2,192
- Points
- 0
Look, this has been going on FOREVER. Plus, Ivy is one of the few believers remaining in this thread. Thus, she's the de facto debater when it comes to this topic (her and KingMikeJ). I can imagine that this alone would make her pretty stressed out, hence her un-investment of the whole subject. Emotions are running high with everyone due to MJ's birthday yesterday, which doesn't help. She rarely gets ticked off and normally explains her views in a polite and concise manner.
Grent
Guests
The thing is, to screw with those songs, no matter WHO is singing, and release them is just plain wrong in the first place.
So there is no need to defend them in any case.
Even if it was MJ on those records, we should all be mad at Cascio and those who are responsible for the release.
Those who defend are plainly anti-conspiracy-theorist.
And if you ask me, with something like the Cascio issue, fans NEED to be divided. I feel ashamed being associated with those 3 songs.
So there is no need to defend them in any case.
Even if it was MJ on those records, we should all be mad at Cascio and those who are responsible for the release.
Those who defend are plainly anti-conspiracy-theorist.
And if you ask me, with something like the Cascio issue, fans NEED to be divided. I feel ashamed being associated with those 3 songs.
You know, I don't believe StellaJackson meant JUST YOU in particular regarding the 'some people' statement...I agree that I simply don't understand why some people believe that these songs are Michael. It's not meant to be insulting! I'm sorry you take it that way, but this is the reality. We don't understand, and we'd like to know why. That's why it's a discussion.
When I agree with the statement 'how can people still defend these songs', it's not to put a division, it's a question! But take it as you want.
@Grent....Yes, that's exactly it! With what we know as the butchering that's been done to these songs, regardless of if it's Michael or not, the songs are STILL being defended and it's this very fact that is making us wonder and scratch our heads.
oh I'm not in this thread as a "debater" anymore. I have no intention to debate or defend the songs.
That said I personally thought we - as fans- made a huge improvement in regards to getting along better despite of our different opinions. so to me that calling fellow fans "some people" - like a rejected group of people and adding "yet still" - like they are clueless beyond idiocy was so uncalled for and was so unnecessary. and that's not "getting to the bottom" of anything.
StellaJackson
Proud Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2008
- Messages
- 2,767
- Points
- 83
Arklove - you're right. I don't intend to offend anyone. I simply don't understand how believers in general can defend these songs. I'm not very good at expressing exactly what I mean, but you kind of said it for me. 
ps: I didn't take it personally. I just didn't like the referring to other fans as "some people" like a rejected group. Today stella's answer to me "not respond to me as I haven't listened to burn2nite" still makes me think that there's a grouping and rejecting and not valuing people is going on.
because even when I took it as a question and answered to "why" I still got the response of "nah I'm not gonna respond because u aren't worthy" reply back.
StellaJackson
Proud Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2008
- Messages
- 2,767
- Points
- 83
My intention is not to offend anyone or divide anyone. People are divided anyway. If you took what I said the wrong way then that's not my problem.
I don't know, Ivy....You may change your mind after hearing Burn2Nite..
To a lot of us, the debate is over after this leak. It's simply not him. It's listening to a song that we're told is Michael Jackson, and I say, 'No, it's not'...Why? Because it's a different person! That's why! That's why it really is pointless to debate with anyone who hasn't heard this song yet. Simple, not insulting...Again, take it as you will, but this constant thinking that we're out to insult you or anyone else is taking it a bit too far.
You're right about one thing, I believe that we as fans in this thread have come a long way in tolerating different opinions and ideas...If you check out some of the other threads in this forum, some of the comments made about the Jackson's or other fans is appalling....We're angels compared to these people...Some of them don't even TRY to speak with a bit more respect. So I stand where I stand on this.
To a lot of us, the debate is over after this leak. It's simply not him. It's listening to a song that we're told is Michael Jackson, and I say, 'No, it's not'...Why? Because it's a different person! That's why! That's why it really is pointless to debate with anyone who hasn't heard this song yet. Simple, not insulting...Again, take it as you will, but this constant thinking that we're out to insult you or anyone else is taking it a bit too far.
You're right about one thing, I believe that we as fans in this thread have come a long way in tolerating different opinions and ideas...If you check out some of the other threads in this forum, some of the comments made about the Jackson's or other fans is appalling....We're angels compared to these people...Some of them don't even TRY to speak with a bit more respect. So I stand where I stand on this.
Last edited:
KingMikeJ
Proud Member
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2010
- Messages
- 2,721
- Points
- 0
I don't know, Ivy....You may change your mind after hearing Burn2Nite..
Even if Ivy listens to Burn Tonight and thinks it is 100% not Michael Jackson, why would that affect her opinions on the other Cascio tracks? Like you have said many times, you trust your ears and I am sure Ivy trusts her ears as well.
:clapping: Most of us.
I never said it would or wouldn't affect her opinions on the other tracks. We're simply just talking about Burn2Nite...
KingMikeJ
Proud Member
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2010
- Messages
- 2,721
- Points
- 0
Oh, well then I have misunderstood something. What did you mean by "You might change your mind"? If you're not referring to the other Cascio tracks what are you referring to? It couldn't change Ivy's opinion of Burn Tonight if she hasn't heard it yet and therefore has no opinion of it.
Ok, well, maybe not change her mind, but at least question a bit more lol...That's why I put the
to indicate that she likely won't change her mind cuz she's so stubborn It was more in fun P.S. If you really believe deep down that the tracks aren't Michael, then click the 'thanks' button in this post
Last edited: