Michael - The Great Album Debate

and they don't even sound remotely close to me



like I said even if I did listen to them and came to the conclusion of "jason" it won't mean a thing as my evaluation of other songs will still be "not jason". I won't magically start hearing jason on monster if I haven't heard him there for a year. so even in that case it would leave me with "cannot be determined" outcome.

I personally would not jump to either side if I have conflicting opinions on these songs.

and correct my memory if I'm wrong: but didn't you believe for a while the vocals to be Michael? (or was that someone else?) so what is confusing about that? now that you changed your opinion you expect everyone to change it? you should be one of the people that's most open to the idea of other people hearing different stuff.
I understand. Yes, I was a believer for a little while, but like I've explained numerous times I thought Breaking News sounded strange immediately and thought it sounded almost exactly like Let Me Let Go, obviously a Jason Malachi song(I thought it was MJ at the time).

I admit that I feel completely stupid for ever thinking Michael sang on the songs. However, I do I guess give myself a little bit of a break considering Michael is pasted on songs like Monster and Breaking News about 25-30 times through various ad-libs and sound bites.

The songs get more and more like Jason Malachi every day and less and less like the Michael I know and love.

I can tell Michael's voice. It's so crazy how we can pick out all the words and ad-libs pasted in because they are so blatantly MJ and the other parts are so blatantly Malachi.

When I first heard Malachi's music and knew it wasn't Michael, like How I Do, Tell It Like It Is, Let Me Let Go... I was disappointed in myself that my mind couldn't tell the difference.

But it's like getting a Dr. Pepper and getting a Dr. Thunder, maybe at first you think they taste the same but after a while you notice the Dr. Thunder tastes like complete crap compared to the real deal.
 
I understand. Yes, I was a believer for a little while, but like I've explained numerous times I thought Breaking News sounded strange immediately and thought it sounded almost exactly like Let Me Let Go, obviously a Jason Malachi song.

I admit that I feel completely stupid for ever thinking Michael sang on the songs. However, I do I guess give myself a little bit of a break considering Michael is pasted on songs like Monster and Breaking News about 25-30 times through various ad-libs and sound bites.

The songs get more and more like Jason Malachi every day and less and less like the Michael I know and love.

I can tell Michael's voice. It's so crazy how we can pick out all the words and ad-libs pasted in because they are so blatantly MJ and the other parts are so blatantly Malachi.

At least you have the guts and honesty to admit it and I admire you for that.
 
Hey Pentum, I listened to that Stalking clip you sent, it sounds like the words are edited from the song Invincible? I didn't even realize the word stalking was in Invincible or...? I'm a little confused, could you explain it a bit for me? :( I knew the "why" and "me" were but where is "stalking" from? It goes by so fast.

Great work, though, listening again and it seems you've almost recreated the identical line from Monster using only Invincible.
 
Can anyone explain to me in all logic why I have been able to recognize MJ's slightest note when a new song came out in each era, and I don't hear him at all in any of the Cascio tracks except the obvious copy-pastes? This is what is making me sick with these songs. I haven't found a single plausible explanation except what my mind says: it is NOT Michael Jackson. Period.

So, where is the logic here? When I heard Monster for the first time I immediately frowned from the first notes, not even being sure at that time if the song was the Cascio song or not. I thought it was a joke or a fan made when it leaked on a hip hop blog.

Here is what happened. Your reaction to Breaking News was different to everything else that happened before because of the following circumstamces, which had never applied before :

1- It was a posthumous release based on vocals never meant for release, with heavy post-production work.
2- It featured third-person lyrics right from the beginning, which was unsettling in a MJ song.
3- It originated from mysterious, unprofessional recording sessions among friends.
4- There had been rumours of the vocals being fake before you even heard the song.

Those 4 factors are why your reaction was different. All 4 factors coalesced into a reaction of emotional rejection. Add to this the echo chamber for emotions and outrage provided by the Internet, and here we are. As for why your reaction to all of the other Cascio songs is the same, that's because you can't shake your conviction they're fake now. Basically, at this point, you can only hear Malachi because that's what you expect to hear.

Had KYHU been the first song to stream, this debate would not even exist.
 
Hey Pentum, I listened to that Stalking clip you sent, it sounds like the words are edited from the song Invincible? I didn't even realize the word stalking was in Invincible or...? I'm a little confused, could you explain it a bit for me? :( I knew the "why" and "me" were but where is "stalking" from? It goes by so fast.

Great work, though, listening again and it seems you've almost recreated the identical line from Monster using only Invincible.
The WHY, YOU and ME is from Invincible. So the line is recreated using the three words directly from the song. Stalking is Jason and the other wod after "WHY" is Jason.
 
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Here is what happened. Your reaction to Breaking News was different to everything else that happened before because of the following circumstamces, which had never applied before :

1- It was a posthumous release based on vocals never meant for release, with heavy post-production work.
2- It featured third-person lyrics right from the beginning, which was unsettling in a MJ song.
3- It originated from mysterious, unprofessional recording sessions among friends.
4- There had been rumours of the vocals being fake before you even heard the song.

Those 4 factors are why your reaction was different. All 4 factors coalesced into a reaction of emotional rejection. Add to this the echo chamber for emotions and outrage provided by the Internet, and here we are. As for why your reaction to all of the other Cascio songs is the same, that's because you can't shake your conviction they're fake now. Basically, at this point, you can only hear Malachi because that's what you expect to hear.

Had KYHU been the first song to stream, this debate would not even exist.
Why then, when I first heard KYHU, did I notice the incredibly weird Malachi shaky vibrato and my heart sank?

Why then was I instantly reminded of Let Me Let Go, a Jason Malachi song, a song I didn't even know was fake at the time?
 
Here is what happened. Your reaction to Breaking News was different to everything else that happened before because of the following circumstamces, which had never applied before :

1- It was a posthumous release based on vocals never meant for release, with heavy post-production work.
2- It featured third-person lyrics right from the beginning, which was unsettling in a MJ song.
3- It originated from mysterious, unprofessional recording sessions among friends.
4- There had been rumours of the vocals being fake before you even heard the song.

Those 4 factors are why your reaction was different. All 4 factors coalesced into a reaction of emotional rejection. Add to this the echo chamber for emotions and outrage provided by the Internet, and here we are. As for why your reaction to all of the other Cascio songs is the same, that's because you can't shake your conviction they're fake now. Basically, at this point, you can only hear Malachi because that's what you expect to hear.

Had KYHU been the first song to stream, this debate would not even exist.
How insulting to people's intelligence. You are making out that we want these songs to be Jason. But we don't, we desperately want them to be Michael. I don't want to think that Michael was stabbed in the back in such a way after his death. I want to be able to look forward to new songs, not worry about whether they will use more of these songs. And as for your points -

"1- It was a posthumous release based on vocals never meant for release, with heavy post-production work."

So were the other 7 songs on Michael. Same goes for Blue Gangster, Do You Know Where Your Children Are, Slave To The Rhythm, Love Never Felt So Good, I am A Loser, Place With No Name. Yet they all sound like Michael. It is only Cascio tracks that sound so wrong.

"2- It featured third-person lyrics right from the beginning, which was unsettling in a MJ song."

So? The other 11 don't, yet they still don't sound like Michael.

"3- It originated from mysterious, unprofessional recording sessions among friends."

WBSS 2008, originates from the same studio, at the same time yet it sounds fine. And as has been said so many times, even in an unprofessional setting, such as on the phone, out and about, in an interview, Michael still sounds like Michael when he sings. And the Cupeta vocal traits such as the vibrato, accent, pronounciation, snorts etc are all there. Whether you think it is him or not, it is a fact that they are in the songs. Likewise, it is a fact that Michael's own trademarks are absent.

"4- There had been rumours of the vocals being fake before you even heard the song."

I, like most fans, was disgusted at the comments from family members that it was fake and totally disregarded them prior to Breaking News. It should also be noted that none of the family members actually mentioned Jason at that time, so it wasn't like the idea was being put into people's heads. I personally didn't even go on the forums on the day it streamed because I didn't want the surprise of the song to be spoiled. Jason Malachi was far from my mind and it had been a long time since I had heard any of his stuff, yet within the first verse of BN, I instantly recognised him. Also, a friend of mine, who does not use any MJ forums, and wasn't even aware of any authenticity controversy from family or fans, texted me straight after she'd heard BN expressing her disappointment that it wasn't Michael. So how was she influenced by anybody? Unfortunately, it is just the same tired old excuses from believers.

And as for saying KYHU would not have had the same reaction, well let me tell you that that was the song that sealed the deal for me. It is so blantantly Cupeta and his awful singing, especially near the end. So don't insult people by saying that we've been influenced by others. We are capable of making our own minds up, based on what we hear or don't hear in the songs, and I for one hear Jason Cupeta. I don't hear Michael at all, except for the pastes. If you want to turn this around, then we could say you were influenced by the statement from the Estate and have long since made your mind up that it is Michael. It's a lot harder to change from that opinion into the uncomfortable territory of the songs being fake, than it is to change from the opposite perspective.
 
Here is what happened. Your reaction to Breaking News was different to everything else that happened before because of the following circumstamces, which had never applied before :

Thank you for your attempt, but if it were that simple I wouldn't be discussing this matter for a year now.

1- It was a posthumous release based on vocals never meant for release, with heavy post-production work.

Just like other leaks we heard such as Slave to the rhythtm, Blue Gangsta, Do you know where your children are, and many other songs that have never been released nor meant to be released including humming and singing on a telephone line quality, yet the vocals were perfectly Michael. So I really don't see what in this first argument of yours makes sound Michael different from other unreleased songs.

2- It featured third-person lyrics right from the beginning, which was unsettling in a MJ song.

Again, this is not the first time. MJ did things in the 3d person lyrically speaking, so this is really not an issue to me. And again, the lyrics have nothing to do with the voice.

3- It originated from mysterious, unprofessional recording sessions among friends.

Why mysterious? What is mysterious about it? Does it mean because we don't know something (= mysterious) than it is normal that the voice is different and that sounds Jason Malachi? I already provided several videos in which MJ sings in all kinds of environments, professional, unprofessional, inside, outside, and his voice remained his voic and didn't sound anyone else's.

4- There had been rumours of the vocals being fake before you even heard the song.

Rumours to which I had never paid attention as usual. I first heard the songs, then I learned about the Cascios. I didn't care who were the Cascios at all. All I wanted is to hear new MJ songs no matter from where or recorded by whom or how. The thing is, I heard Jason malachi instead.

Those 4 factors are why your reaction was different. All 4 factors coalesced into a reaction of emotional rejection. Add to this the echo chamber for emotions and outrage provided by the Internet, and here we are. As for why your reaction to all of the other Cascio songs is the same, that's because you can't shake your conviction they're fake now. Basically, at this point, you can only hear Malachi because that's what you expect to hear.

Had KYHU been the first song to stream, this debate would not even exist.

The 4 factors you mentioned are absolutely not answering my question to why I hear the same voice as I heard in 2007. Be it KYHU, BN or Monster, they don't sound MJ at all. Although I admit, as I always have, I have more difficulties with slower songs as they are much easier to sing than the faster songs. For example when I hear Monster, it's a big palm face! The singer doesn't sound as MJ at all. Not a bit. From the beginning till the end. Even the "TOO BAD" part in Monster sounds exactly the same as a part of the song in "Let me let go". It's almost plagiarism.
 
The WHY, YOU and ME is from Invincible. So the line is recreated using the three words directly from the song. Stalking is Jason and the other wod after "WHY" is Jason.

Oh "STALKING" part is certainly not Michael! When I heard it for the first time I was "WTF is this?! What happened to his accent and timbre!?"
 
Sorry Pentum, didn't mean to depress you. It's a sad truth that he has passed and things like this are done to his legacy, definitely, but it just makes me reflect on how huge of a loss it was for music and the world, it makes me appreciate him. Such an amazing and important person and I can't wait for more and more people to support him!

Love the album cover, too. :)
 
The "keep" in Breaking News was also sampled from Invincible... always the same song, always the same dirty work..

please check it:
http://www.mediafire.com/?roqlag2ncl4t369

Who worked on "Breaking News" and "Monster" ? - Teddy...
Are there other songs with words replacement ? - not that I know..

I still don't draw any conclusion.. ;)

Now my question is: How did the Cascio extract the "yeah-eah-eah" from Invincible to paste it on Monster? You can find it in the so called "demo" version.. :-/
 
The "keep" in Breaking News was also sampled from Invincible... always the same song, always the same dirty work..

please check it:
http://www.mediafire.com/?roqlag2ncl4t369

Who worked on "Breaking News" and "Monster" ? - Teddy...
Are there other songs with words replacement ? - not that I know..

I still don't draw any conclusion.. ;)

Now my question is: How did the Cascio extract the "yeah-eah-eah" from Invincible to paste it on Monster? You can find it in the so called "demo" version.. :-/

That was probably Teddy's job for SONY --processing. Who else provided him with the Invincible a cappela material?
 
Wow, the keep part being from Invincible makes sense. I'll have to give Breaking News a listen. And Monster..
 
IVY, did you ever answer my question about the now-removed old threads section?
 
yes.. but it was said that this demo was the version given by the Cascio..
John McCain worked on the songs before giving them out to different producers. He might've added the ad libs the Cascios did not have access to. It is not possible that the Monster demo @ 1 min that leaked is straight from the Cascio's basement because of the ad libs, unless the Estate were working with them
 
John McCain worked on the songs before giving them out to different producers.
john-mccain-mobile-wallpaper.jpg
 
IVY, did you ever answer my question about the now-removed old threads section?

I honestly have no idea. I know the threads were there and I know that everything is archived. Probably Gaz will know if we lost them during the db crash.
 
I'm sorry Pentum, I'm just ruining your day aren't I? :( I didn't mean to be rude to you, you know I love you don't you?!
 
John McCain worked on the songs before giving them out to different producers. He might've added the ad libs the Cascios did not have access to.
In fact I read a bit quickly when I mentioned Roger Friedman the other day. ;) He said that McClain worked on songs too. He doesn't say explicitly which songs, but he's referring to recent songs other than the Cascio's.

And Stella said that the protools session was given directly from the Cascio to Sony.. :-/

It is not possible that the Monster demo @ 1 min that leaked is straight from the Cascio's basement because of the ad libs, unless the Estate were working with them
I agree with you..

I need to compare the speed of "yeah-eah-eah" between the demo, the final version and Invincible.. that would give us a clue, I think. But I don't have the spectrograms software to be accurate..
 
In fact I read a bit quickly when I mentioned Roger Friedman the other day. ;) He said that McClain worked on songs too. He doesn't say explicitly which songs, but he's referring to recent songs other than the Cascio's.
I know, but it just makes sense that he must've like worked a bit on it, because how would the Cascios have access to Invincible multitracks?
 
I know, but it just makes sense that he must've like worked a bit on it, because how would the Cascios have access to Invincible multitracks?
It seems more probable that Teddy did this work himself..

BUT some screams from Monster are used in Black Widow. Did he work on that song too??
 
That would mean that himself has 'Vince multitracks or was given them along with the tracks.
Does Sony keep the multitracks after they release an album? Would they be able to provide them?
We are now trying to understand how the Estate was involved in this rip-off .. I think that's important, and we need a strong certitude before to judge them guilty.

Some other clues:
- we know for sure that Teddy added 2 "aah" in Monster, at 3'25 (they are present in 50 cents version but not in the early mix) => so he had access to multitracks.
- he also removed the scream from ghost.
- this "aah" was also used in Black Widow. Did he work on that song?
- BN and Monster seem to be the same dirty work, KYHU and Stay is another style, All I need still another style.. Teddy seems to be the one who sampled Invincible to paste words everywhere.
 
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