Michael - The Great Album Debate

StellaJackson;3710681 said:
Why won't you show him any Malachi clips? What are you afraid of?

Talking to that sound engineer is interesting because of the facts that he – and only he, because of his position -- can bring to the table: the number of tracks he received, what he was told to do with them, what Porte told him back then, why they were the way they were, his expertise as a sound engineer, etc.

The same sort of silly, unscientific, misleading, subjective comparisons and “gut-feelings” that got us in this mess in the first place is exactly what DOES NOT interest me: I can get plenty of that here. This correspondence is interesting because it focuses on facts or expertise, two things that he has more of than we do.

As an example, my next question to him is “What are the titles of the songs you were given to work on?” That’s what I’m talking about: facts that are relevant to the case.

This isn’t about “converting” him to your opinion, so you no longer have to deal with the annoyance of a different point of view than yours.
 
kreen, if you e-mail him again, could you perhaps ask him:

-In a bit more detail what kind of work he did on the mixes?
-Whether the mixes that ended up on the album sounded very different to those he handled, e.g.: different instrumentation, different tempo, etc?
-What he meant by this comment in his previous e-mail:

I think it's cool that you guys are searching for some truth in all this which is why I'm happy to share some information. Most people who worked on that album are probably more concerned with covering their own asses than revealing what they know.
(I am not implying anything btw, am just wondering what exactly he is referring to).
 
If he only just could participate for a little while in this thread, just long enough to answer all of our questions......(maybe once is enough)....that would be better than e-mailing back and forth.

But of course I'm happy with Kreen asking him questions and him answering them. Better than nothing at all. I'm pretty surprised by his cooperation btw. I expected the door to be shut in front of our faces again.

And I saw his username below this thread, so he probably read some posts (if it wasn't someone trying to be funny, that is).

@Socav...yeah..that line has got me thinking too. I hope Angelo Montrone is the 'reveals what he knows' type..:)
 
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A few quick points :

1- Regarding the lyrics on the Cascio songs : who cares about lyrics on a pop song?

Michael Jackson did.

Not everything has to be a part of high culture to contain depth and relevance.
 
kreen, if you e-mail him again, could you perhaps ask him:

-In a bit more detail what kind of work he did on the mixes?
-Whether the mixes that ended up on the album sounded very different to those he handled, e.g.: different instrumentation, different tempo, etc?
-What he meant by this comment in his previous e-mail:


(I am not implying anything btw, am just wondering what exactly he is referring to).

Good questions, I'll ask them. But you can't ask too many questions in the same email, because that's when the person just goes, "to heck with this, this takes too long".

I think it's better to communicate through email than on a forum, because on a forum, the discussion always gets highjacked by the more emotional people, for whom it's not so much about getting to the truth as it is about winning.
 
kreen;3710701 said:
Talking to that sound engineer is interesting because of the facts that he – and only he, because of his position -- can bring to the table: the number of tracks he received, what he was told to do with them, what Porte told him back then, why they were the way they were, his expertise as a sound engineer, etc.

The same sort of silly, unscientific, misleading, subjective comparisons and “gut-feelings” that got us in this mess in the first place is exactly what DOES NOT interest me: I can get plenty of that here. This correspondence is interesting because it focuses on facts or expertise, two things that he has more of than we do.

As an example, my next question to him is “What are the titles of the songs you were given to work on?” That’s what I’m talking about: facts that are relevant to the case.

This isn’t about “converting” him to your opinion, so you no longer have to deal with the annoyance of a different point of view than yours.


I know he can only give facts that pertain to what he was involved in doing, which, while interesting, don't provide definitive proof either way. The one thing we can confirm from him is that the tracks he worked on did not contain the vocals we hear now. As to why, he has offered his opinion. He also has offered his opinion on things like the vibrato. There are other people who have different opinions as to the cause of this. And it would be interesting to hear his opinion on that. It's a shame he can't explain any of the other issues but that's not surprsing. The reason people have consistently identified Jason for the last two years is because the songs sound exactly like him. You talk about unscientific and misleading, while failing to acknowledge that there is not one single piece of evidence to back up your position that it's Michael on the songs. This whole thing has nothing to do with emotions or gut feelings but what people hear. Nobody here wants to be in a position where we don't hear Michael on the tracks. But we don't hear him. I know it's easier for you to label people as "crazy fans" but you are completely missing the point. If you want to talk about gut feelings then that is all you have.

As for suggesting that it's the fans who got us in this mess in the first place then it's clear you simply don't understand this issue. What got us in this mess is the fact that a bunch of songs were sold for ridiculous amounts of money that the seller claimed were the work of Michael Jackson yet was unable to back up his story when it was pointed out by fans, family and producers that the songs don't sound like Michael. As soon as I heard Breaking News, without any foreknowledge of the controversy, I instantly recognised the voice of Jason Malachii. Let's not forget that JM was identified as the possible vocalist almost a month before Breaking News was streamed or heard by fans. So don't try to shift the blame on to the fans because that's really rather ridiculous.

The people (Cascio/Porte) who sold these songs to Sony have failed to provide one scrap of proof that Michael ever recorded them despite the fact that a great many fans, his own children and previous people who have worked with him state that they do not recognise the voice as being that of Michael Jackson.

As for Jason Malachi, what you have to understand is this. Let's say we had never heard of the guy. He'd never released any songs. The Cascio tracks come out and the reaction is still going to be the same. They don't sound like Mj. They sound like an impersonator. The only difference is that people would be trying to figure out who that impersonator was. With Jason, we have a match in the voice. It isn't like people just chose him at random because he is an impersonator. His voice is instantly recognisable on the songs. The tone, accent, vibrato, pornounciation are all identical to his. Now if you believe it is not him singing then that's fine but all we ask is an explanation for those issues. In two years not one has been given. If it's not Jason then those "Jasonisms" must be the result of something else. It certainly isn't because they are guide vocals or demo vocals because we have a wealth of others to compare them to. It isn't Michael's age or wellbeing because we have other recordings from that era including This Is It rehersals where he sounds just like himself despite being tired and not singing full out. It isn't the studio because we have WBSS 08 vocals recorded there which sound fine and Michael never had any of those issues when singing while out and about or down the phone. Those issues are only present on the Cascio tracks. So what is the explanation and can evidence and examples be provided? Jason was more than happy to speak out and clear up previous confusion about his own songs but he refuses to engage in any way over this issue, despite the damage that it's done him and his idol. Even his own producer publicly stated that he recognises Jason on these songs as he recorded him for years. He received no financial gain from saying that. He still stands by that today because he was contacted about it for something. All of this is before we even get in to the many other issues, such as the changing stories, lack of one single outtake (12 tracks and not one time where they picked up Michael speaking during the recording process? Come on.) You can take any Mj recording, be it a demo, album song, live vocal and put it against one from another era and find multiple matches in sound and technique yet this cannot be done with the Cascio tracks. Not to mention that Michael's recording habits, which can be found all over every other recording, are completely absent. Not one finger snap, clap or hiccup. Yet we can put these songs against any Jason track and the matches are there. The snorts. The totally different pronounciation. The uncontrolled vibrato. The way in which the end of lines go "down" because he can't hold the note. All only on Cascio and only on Jason tracks. And this is someone singing full out. Listen to Water. Since when did Michael have to strain himself like that just to lay down a supposed guide vocal? All of these issues are on the versions that were collected from Eddie Cascio on July 10th 2010, meaning they originate from the Cascio end, so that is where the answers lie, hence people quite rightly asking Eddie for answers. When you couple all of this together, along with the absolute lack of proof, then it is only logical to have serious concerns and ask if this is an impersonator who laid down vocals with Eddie Cascio following Michael's death, with Jason Malachi being the most likely candidate.
 
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^^^Another very important and recognizable match with Jason are the (awful IMO) yelps. I'm not a soundengineer, but I don't think these matches (snorts, yelps, whining way of singing) are an artifact from pitch correction or autotune. I also don't think pitchcorrection or autotune or whatever programm that is used, erases letters out from words..like the 't' in wanting.

And why is this thread private again btw? Someone knows?
 
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At Stella...
p937f.gif
 
I know he can only give facts that pertain to what he was involved in doing, which, while interesting, don't provide definitive proof either way. The one thing we can confirm from him is that the tracks he worked on did not contain the vocals we hear now. As to why, he has offered his opinion. He also has offered his opinion on things like the vibrato. There are other people who have different opinions as to the cause of this. And it would be interesting to hear his opinion on that. It's a shame he can't explain any of the other issues but that's not surprsing. The reason people have consistently identified Jason for the last two years is because the songs sound exactly like him. You talk about unscientific and misleading, while failing to acknowledge that there is not one single piece of evidence to back up your position that it's Michael on the songs. This whole thing has nothing to do with emotions or gut feelings but what people hear. Nobody here wants to be in a position where we don't hear Michael on the tracks. But we don't hear him. I know it's easier for you to label people as "crazy fans" but you are completely missing the point. If you want to talk about gut feelings then that is all you have.

As for suggesting that it's the fans who got us in this mess in the first place then it's clear you simply don't understand this issue. What got us in this mess is the fact that a bunch of songs were sold for ridiculous amounts of money that the seller claimed were the work of Michael Jackson yet was unable to back up his story when it was pointed out by fans, family and producers that the songs don't sound like Michael. As soon as I heard Breaking News, without any foreknowledge of the controversy, I instantly recognised the voice of Jason Malachii. Let's not forget that JM was identified as the possible vocalist almost a month before Breaking News was streamed or heard by fans. So don't try to shift the blame on to the fans because that's really rather ridiculous.

The people (Cascio/Porte) who sold these songs to Sony have failed to provide one scrap of proof that Michael ever recorded them despite the fact that a great many fans, his own children and previous people who have worked with him state that they do not recognise the voice as being that of Michael Jackson.

As for Jason Malachi, what you have to understand is this. Let's say we had never heard of the guy. He'd never released any songs. The Cascio tracks come out and the reaction is still going to be the same. They don't sound like Mj. They sound like an impersonator. The only difference is that people would be trying to figure out who that impersonator was. With Jason, we have a match in the voice. It isn't like people just chose him at random because he is an impersonator. His voice is instantly recognisable on the songs. The tone, accent, vibrato, pornounciation are all identical to his. Now if you believe it is not him singing then that's fine but all we ask is an explanation for those issues. In two years not one has been given. If it's not Jason then those "Jasonisms" must be the result of something else. It certainly isn't because they are guide vocals or demo vocals because we have a wealth of others to compare them to. It isn't Michael's age or wellbeing because we have other recordings from that era including This Is It rehersals where he sounds just like himself despite being tired and not singing full out. It isn't the studio because we have WBSS 08 vocals recorded there which sound fine and Michael never had any of those issues when singing while out and about or down the phone. Those issues are only present on the Cascio tracks. So what is the explanation and can evidence and examples be provided? Jason was more than happy to speak out and clear up previous confusion about his own songs but he refuses to engage in any way over this issue, despite the damage that it's done him and his idol. Even his own producer publicly stated that he recognises Jason on these songs as he recorded him for years. He received no financial gain from saying that. He still stands by that today because he was contacted about it for something. All of this is before we even get in to the many other issues, such as the changing stories, lack of one single outtake (12 tracks and not one time where they picked up Michael speaking during the recording process? Come on.) You can take any Mj recording, be it a demo, album song, live vocal and put it against one from another era and find multiple matches in sound and technique yet this cannot be done with the Cascio tracks. Not to mention that Michael's recording habits, which can be found all over every other recording, are completely absent. Not one finger snap, clap or hiccup. Yet we can put these songs against any Jason track and the matches are there. The snorts. The totally different pronounciation. The uncontrolled vibrato. The way in which the end of lines go "down" because he can't hold the note. All only on Cascio and only on Jason tracks. And this is someone singing full out. Listen to Water. Since when did Michael have to strain himself like that just to lay down a supposed guide vocal? All of these issues are on the versions that were collected from Eddie Cascio on July 10th 2010, meaning they originate from the Cascio end, so that is where the answers lie, hence people quite rightly asking Eddie for answers. When you couple all of this together, along with the absolute lack of proof, then it is only logical to have serious concerns and ask if this is an impersonator who laid down vocals with Eddie Cascio following Michael's death, with Jason Malachi being the most likely candidate.


Excellent summary Stella from the doubters' point of view.

The believers either:

-undermine those discrepancies
-act as if there was only one discrepancy on those tracks due to "processing' and ignore all other ones
-don't question the official version because it is "official"
-or are led to believe that doubters have some kind of secret paranoid agenda or conspiracy

how unfortunate.
 
Sigh.Stella would rather cycle round n' round than add something new.
Would you mind summarizing the conversation between you and JB if JB revealed something new to you?
 
I'd like a believer to pick that apart, and reply to every single point made in a well thought out and logical manner. So far, in 2 years, this hasn't happened.
 
I'd like a believer to pick that apart, and reply to every single point made in a well thought out and logical manner. So far, in 2 years, this hasn't happened.

Well, the believers have been answering, but with incredible scenarii evoking:

-MJ being sick
-MJ being old
-processing
-pvc pipe
-melodyne
-autotune
-MJ being a wreck
-MJ doing the songs for fun
-demos
-studio imperfections
-no photos, no videos cuz MJ never wanted to be filmed in the studio
-amateur producers
-MJ singing in the shower
-...

and what's actually funny is that we are supposed to believe that all this happened at the same time without questioning the voice at all.
 
Question : so John Branca told a few fans here that he does think the songs are authentic, right?

Ok. Let's assume that he really thinks they are authentic.

Whatever evidence there is of the songs being authentic or not, or whatever ABSENCE of evidence there is of the songs being real or not, it's hard to imagine anyone having better access to it than John Branca.

It's also hard to imagine someone CARING more about whether the songs are real or not than John Branca. For us, it's just a matter of customer satisfaction or defending MJ's legacy. For him, it's all of those things, IN ADDITION to major legal and financial consequences. It's a different league or repercussions altogether.

So we have a man who must CARE about the truth, and who has the means to ascertain the truth -- means that we can only dream about here, mere fans on a MJ forum.

So WHY does he think the songs are authentic if it's an impostor singing on them?
 
I'd like a believer to pick that apart, and reply to every single point made in a well thought out and logical manner. So far, in 2 years, this hasn't happened.

If you go through the last, what, 19 000 posts, you'll see that I, as well as several other people, have indeed dealt with every single point raised in that "wall of text" from Stella (hey Stella, paragraphs are your friend!). Many times of course, my answer is "I don't know why". But like I've said many times, the failure to explain everything does not negate all that is explained.
 
Question : so John Branca told a few fans here that he does think the songs are authentic, right?

Ok. Let's assume that he really thinks they are authentic.

Whatever evidence there is of the songs being authentic or not, or whatever ABSENCE of evidence there is of the songs being real or not, it's hard to imagine anyone having better access to it than John Branca.

It's also hard to imagine someone CARING more about whether the songs are real or not than John Branca. For us, it's just a matter of customer satisfaction or defending MJ's legacy. For him, it's all of those things, IN ADDITION to major legal and financial consequences. It's a different league or repercussions altogether.

So we have a man who must CARE about the truth, and who has the means to ascertain the truth -- means that we can only dream about here, mere fans on a MJ forum.

So WHY does he think the songs are authentic if it's an impostor singing on them?

That's not what was said. It was a private conversation between me and John Branca. Many aspects of the songs were discussed and I will post the info as and when I feel ready.
 
MJ never needed any autotune or digital processings. Why would they alter his voice if it was really MJ? I don't believe he was really such wreck in 2007 or so when Cascios were supposedly recorded. In TII he sings brilliant.
 
Question : so John Branca told a few fans here that he does think the songs are authentic, right?

Ok. Let's assume that he really thinks they are authentic.

Whatever evidence there is of the songs being authentic or not, or whatever ABSENCE of evidence there is of the songs being real or not, it's hard to imagine anyone having better access to it than John Branca.

It's also hard to imagine someone CARING more about whether the songs are real or not than John Branca. For us, it's just a matter of customer satisfaction or defending MJ's legacy. For him, it's all of those things, IN ADDITION to major legal and financial consequences. It's a different league or repercussions altogether.

So we have a man who must CARE about the truth, and who has the means to ascertain the truth -- means that we can only dream about here, mere fans on a MJ forum.

So WHY does he think the songs are authentic if it's an impostor singing on them?

Public relations? Imagine the juicy headlines that his admitting the songs are fake would generate.
 
MJ never needed any autotune or digital processings. Why would they alter his voice if it was really MJ? I don't believe he was really such wreck in 2007 or so when Cascios were supposedly recorded. In TII he sings brilliant.

On WBSS 2008 and on Hold My Hand he sings brilliant.
 
^^^^^

[youtube]x7NXA1crk44[/youtube]

...:wub:

(So tell me what we're wai--t--ing for)

No snorts, no yelps...just perfect.
 
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MJelboo;3711664 said:
Public relations? Imagine the juicy headlines that his admitting the songs are fake would generate.

Ah, so Branca didn't tell the truth about what he thinks to Stella? In that case, we also shouldn't believe him when he said the other Cascio tracks would never be released...

But aside from that, this reason doesn’t make sense. They’d certainly be ridiculed if they admitted they were fooled, but the situation that is going on right NOW, if they really do think the songs are fake, is much worse: right now, they’re at the mercy of a number of 20-year-old fraudsters, who could at any moment reveal the hoax, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, which would lead to huge financial and legal repercussions for all involved – including Branca, the Estate, Sony, etc., ESPECIALLY if it turned out they KNEW the tracks were fake and did nothing.

There are two possibilities regarding Branca. Either he thinks the songs are real, in which case we can trust his opinion, considering he has access to all the evidence, or lack thereof.

Or he thinks the songs are fake. In which case, he would have sued the Cascios, withdrawn the “Michael” album from the market, or at the very least stopped its promotion (I’ll point out that the album is still sold on the official MJ website), and issued an apology based on the idea that they were the victims of fraud, and rectified the situation as soon as they heard about it.

Right now, what you’re suggesting is that John Branca and John McClain are, for lack of a less vulgar word, Eddie Cascio and James Porte’s bitc***.
 
Chamife;3711676 said:
^^^^^

[youtube]x7NXA1crk44[/youtube]

...:wub:

(So tell me what we're wai--t--ing for)

No snorts, no yelps...just perfect.

Listening to “Price of Fame”, have you noticed how MJ messes up the “phhh” sound on “fortune”, “fame” and “feel” starting at 1:55? He sounds like he’s doing the “motorboating” sound my kids do when they’re at the pool, you know, “phrrphrr”. So is it MJ singing, or should I start scouring the Web for an MJ impersonator with too much saliva?

Or could it be just the difference between demo vocals and final takes?
 
kreen;3711714 said:
Listening to “Price of Fame”, have you noticed how MJ messes up the “phhh” sound on “fortune”, “fame” and “feel” starting at 1:55? He sounds like he’s doing the “motorboating” sound my kids do when they’re at the pool, you know, “phrrphrr”. So is it MJ singing, or should I start scouring the Web for an MJ impersonator with too much saliva?

Or could it be just the difference between demo vocals and final takes?

you answered your own question, possibly, in the last line of your paragraph.
My question to you. Are you interested in buying a copy of a Cascio..album..or are you trying to campaign to force others to do so?
 
kreen;3711714 said:
Listening to “Price of Fame”, have you noticed how MJ messes up the “phhh” sound on “fortune”, “fame” and “feel” starting at 1:55? He sounds like he’s doing the “motorboating” sound my kids do when they’re at the pool, you know, “phrrphrr”. So is it MJ singing, or should I start scouring the Web for an MJ impersonator with too much saliva?

Or could it be just the difference between demo vocals and final takes?
Even if there's a messup in how he pronounces that sound, there's still not a single instance where it sounds off or un-Michael, compared to the Cascio tracks where they sound completely off and un-Michael.

It's strange. People who support the Cascio songs would probably say the difference is the Cascio songs are over-processed, the Bad demos are untouched. However, we throw Michael's voice through every single sort of melodyne effect and it still sounds like Michael, there's no processing that makes the Cascio nuances appear.

The Bad demos are amazing, by the way. Michael through and through. :)
 
If you go through the last, what, 19 000 posts, you'll see that I, as well as several other people, have indeed dealt with every single point raised in that "wall of text" from Stella (hey Stella, paragraphs are your friend!). Many times of course, my answer is "I don't know why". But like I've said many times, the failure to explain everything does not negate all that is explained.

This isn't good enough. There should be logical reasons for everything. Simply stating "I don't know" weakens your stance when you have doubters giving logical reasons for these things you "don't know". Maybe, just maybe we're on the right track? Could this be possible? In many cases it does. See "guide vocals", when the singer on the tracks is singing at full strength using multiple takes and not flubbing a single lyric. See "bad equipment" when the sound quality is in fact quite good and certainly good enough to hear that it's clearly Michael in WBSS 2008. Etc...
 
kreen;3711714 said:
Listening to “Price of Fame”, have you noticed how MJ messes up the “phhh” sound on “fortune”, “fame” and “feel” starting at 1:55? He sounds like he’s doing the “motorboating” sound my kids do when they’re at the pool, you know, “phrrphrr”. So is it MJ singing, or should I start scouring the Web for an MJ impersonator with too much saliva?

Or could it be just the difference between demo vocals and final takes?

First Branca does not have any proof. If he had it he would certainly show it. He was fooled like many of you who actually take the official word as Gospel without daring to question it. I suppose you noticed all the photos in the studio when MJ recorded BAD. Even some extremely rare photos with Stevie Wonder which I had never ever seen in the late 80s when the album actually came out. BAD25 proved that the Estate finally listened to the fans and took MJ's advice "not to be messin' around".

Second, MJ's "f"s are not messed up. It's nothing unusual for that sound being sung so energeticly.

Third, from the very moment he starts singing, deep or high, you recognize the voice despite being demos and despite the fact that they were not final versions as you can hear him laughing at the end of one of the demos. Aside from that, you have probably noticed finger snaps and hand claps (which are absent from the Cascio tracks).

There is no single demo or song that can be compared with the Cascio horrors. Branca got fooled and he won't admit it, and some fans who stubbornly believe it's MJ will not admit it either, nor will they dare question Branca.

The believers other than "I don't know" and "might be", "maybe", "could be", "could have been", "might have been", "probably", etc. have no other arguments to prove that it is MJ singing the Cascio tracks. The doubters' doubts are however completely justified by the fact that there are way too many "maybes".
 
kreen;3711708 said:
Ah, so Branca didn't tell the truth about what he thinks to Stella? In that case, we also shouldn't believe him when he said the other Cascio tracks would never be released...

But aside from that, this reason doesn’t make sense. They’d certainly be ridiculed if they admitted they were fooled, but the situation that is going on right NOW, if they really do think the songs are fake, is much worse: right now, they’re at the mercy of a number of 20-year-old fraudsters, who could at any moment reveal the hoax, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, which would lead to huge financial and legal repercussions for all involved – including Branca, the Estate, Sony, etc., ESPECIALLY if it turned out they KNEW the tracks were fake and did nothing.

There are two possibilities regarding Branca. Either he thinks the songs are real, in which case we can trust his opinion, considering he has access to all the evidence, or lack thereof.

Or he thinks the songs are fake. In which case, he would have sued the Cascios, withdrawn the “Michael” album from the market, or at the very least stopped its promotion (I’ll point out that the album is still sold on the official MJ website), and issued an apology based on the idea that they were the victims of fraud, and rectified the situation as soon as they heard about it.

Right now, what you’re suggesting is that John Branca and John McClain are, for lack of a less vulgar word, Eddie Cascio and James Porte’s bitc***.

John McClain and Jackie Jackson said it from the day 1 that the songs are fake. McClain is not anybody's bitc***.
 
Branca got fooled and he won't admit it

Wait a minute here. Are you saying that Branca KNOWS the songs are fake and won't admit it because he's too proud, or are you saying that he still wrongly thinks they are real?
 
John McClain and Jackie Jackson said it from the day 1 that the songs are fake. McClain is not anybody's bitc***.

He is if he's still paying Eddie Cascio and James Porte royalties on fraudulent songs they fooled him into buying. In fact, that's pretty much a perfect illustration of being somebody's bitc*.
 
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