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Michael - The Great Album Debate

I am really happy because on many forums there is a comon sense that the tracks are fake. There are not many wars of fans as it used to be. We are together again.
 
such a shame.. this "I can't be bothered" shows that I gave a lot more importance and respect to your posts then you ever did to mine..

@Kapital - thank you
 
This whole thing is just sick.

And ivy,
About your reply to my post...

It seems like you kind of avoided my point.

If the Cascio's think this whole controversy is hurting Michael, why are they continuing it themselves? Why are they remaining completely silent? Why haven't they put an end to it by saying something better? Why haven't they communicated with the fans even a tiny bit?

Why don't they want Michael to stop being hurt?
 
^^ Because they believe it's the fans' fault for perpetuating all of this controversy.
 
Ivy, your voice is heard here. There are people who listen to you and give your posts condiserable thoughts. As a minority living in the U.S., I don't want to be treated differently becasue of my ethinicity. So, I understand where you are coming from and can certainly relate to your personal experience.

Back to topic!

I don't think it's any fan's fault. Both believers and the doubters are the victims. The Cascios may be the victims too. If the songs are 100% authentic, they are the victims as well. I think the situation will be much better if there is more transparency. Like what Joe Vogel said, it's up to Eddie Cascio to be more forthcoming.
 
Aniram said:
This whole thing is just sick.

And ivy,
About your reply to my post...

It seems like you kind of avoided my point.

If the Cascio's think this whole controversy is hurting Michael, why are they continuing it themselves? Why are they remaining completely silent? Why haven't they put an end to it by saying something better? Why haven't they communicated with the fans even a tiny bit?

Why don't they want Michael to stop being hurt?
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I can't answer for them. only they knew the answer to that questions. but if you want me guess I'll say it's because of the reaction and how people were quick to judge them and how they made fun of them when they tried to speak.

let me give you a real life example. the band that I worked with. They decided to break up in one point, obviously first the people that worked with them (such as me) knew this. at the time they decided to break up they had some advertising deals, concert deals signed. obviously the sponsors, record company wanted them to stay as a group for the duration of the deals. It was agreed that nobody would renew any deals but they had to honor the ones in place. This was a less messy choice then immediately breaking up and dealing with paying legal ramifications of breaking the deals early. so in short the band was breaking up but they were required to keep it a secret from the public and the fans for 8 months until they satisfy all the contracts they had in place.

Over time we had to tell it to industry insiders because we weren't able to accept any jobs after their break up date and the members were looking for individual recording deals etc. so over time insiders began learning what was happening but promised to keep it a secret and 99.9% of them did. 1 person broke the news on a TV program 2 months before they were supposed to break up.

Fans reaction was unbelievable, it was chaos. they were hurt, they didn't believe it, they cried. while this was happening the band was trying to meet up with the record company execs , sponsors and was begging them to let them give a statement to the fans to comfort them but there was a lot of politics going on , a lot of people needed to agree on conditions etc. you couldn't just run to the media with a statement. Band had one typed up within 3-4 hours but the discussion among the parties was taking time.

shortly (in a few hours actually) fans surprise and hurt turned into anger. and fans started accusations and speculations. they speculated that the lead singer was on a ego trip and wanted to go solo. they speculated that a certain member was more interested in producing and higher income. they speculated that another member was more interested in sex then giving a damn about the band and so on and so on. a million speculations and accusations were written on the fan forums. but they didn't even know one single fact or the reason for the break up.

during this - trying to get everyone on board for a statement - I got a call from the band telling me to give up and it didn't matter anymore. Surprised I went to meet the band and I argued with them the fans needed a statement because they were put into such a terrible position and they were blindsided with the news. Band made me read such forum posts I mentioned above and the keyboard player turned to me and said "I gave 14 years to this band. I respected and loved all the fans and now look to what they say about me. I don't care if they are hurt. after what they said about me they can go and f*ck themselves".. and that was it.. No statements, band felt that it didn't matter anymore. what I write quite often is actually what the lead singer said to me that day about being the cop, judge, jury and hangman. He believed the fans had "hanged" him so to speak and it was too late to change anything.

It's the reason why I call such attempts "futile" in this example. the minute people mocked Eddie about pushing the buttons, they made him less likely to respond. the minute you call him evil, compare him to Arvizo's etc and say that he has to be called shit, you lose any more chance to hear from him. I asked on this thread over and over again what would change your mind? for example for a second let's assume that it's real that he has handwritten lyrics. If he shows that and if people are going to respond to him "he faked them as he faked the songs" there's no need for him to respond. Look to this thread and you also have your answer. People can't be wrong. If they can't be wrong , why would he respond? see what I'm saying? This is not a debate, this is not an investigation. It's a lynching (generally speaking).
 
Yeah, but Ivy, most have NEVER been that way.

Most are honest, kind people, like you and I.

People are not going to hate Eddie Cascio forever, especially if he is trying to explain himself and shows us some proof.

The thing is, it seems like there isn't any proof or else he likely would have shown it, or someone would have. At least I believe that.
 
If these tracks are the only black mark on his record, and he did indeed took a bit of time for the fans, then I certainly won't hold many ill thoughts towards him. Heck, if these tracks were explained in Frank's book, I'll give them the merit that they're at least trying. But Ivy's story rings true in our situation.
 
What I mean, is people are not only pissed that they don't hear MJ, they are pissed that Eddie doesn't seem to give a crap and doesn't care about Michael's legacy by putting this issue to rest once and for all.

I mean, how can you sit there and go "The controversy is hurtful to Michael", while you have all the first-hand experience and evidence with you and do absolutely nothing with it. Ridiculous and foolish...
 
After reading what Ivy posted, I feel helpless. There are people who really want to listen to Eddie's side of story. And, if he feels frustrated because of some posts by fans who got too emotional. Then, I don't know what to say. It's just unfortunate for us all.
 
Aniram said:
What I mean, is people are not only pissed that they don't hear MJ, they are pissed that Eddie doesn't seem to give a crap and doesn't care about Michael's legacy by putting this issue to rest once and for all.

I mean, how can you sit there and go "The controversy is hurtful to Michael", while you have all the first-hand experience and evidence with you and do absolutely nothing with it. Ridiculous and foolish...
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Exactly, exactly, exactly....The issue is with the statement in bolded...Then do something about it! Tell us what you know, be honest, give us the evidence if you have it....Ignoring the issue isn't gonna do any good, and blaming the fans isn't gonna sit well with us either....How does that NOT hurt the fanbase?!? Telling us 'It's Michael....I was there pushing buttons'... and showing a picture of an empty studio with a mic stand and a pillow sans Michael is gonna generate some ridicule....That's just the way it is....As for the hateful comments, well, not ALL the fans are like that...But ridiculing because of the above doesn't equal to hate...It's the WAY with which they've dealt with the situation, and the WAY with which they tried to 'explain' why Michael sounds different....not the people themselves...
 
Aniram said:
Yeah, but Ivy, most have NEVER been that way.

Most are honest, kind people, like you and I.

People are not going to hate Eddie Cascio forever, especially if he is trying to explain himself and shows us some proof.

The thing is, it seems like there isn't any proof or else he likely would have shown it, or someone would have. At least I believe that.
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from my personal experience I can tell you that yes people will hate Eddie forever.

the band that I mentioned has been broken up for several years now and the lead singer is doing his own thing. Still some fan calls a show and accuses him of breaking the band. still whenever he releases any new work fans write that he's new work will never be as good as his work with the band , they'll never buy his albums or forgive him. Still during interviews he get the question of why they broke up and he still doesn't answer. He still thinks that the fans don't deserve an explanation simply based on the way that they acted. fans still do not know one single fact but they do believe that they have all the answers and figured it all out.


I didn't agree with them when they changed their minds and didn't release any statements. but today years later I agree that it was a futile attempt and they were already "hanged" and it couldn't be reversed.
 
Well, if that's truly what Eddie feels like, I guess we're never gonna get any type of explanation...and that's really sad for Michael and his legacy....

Of course, I don't believe they have any actual explanation or evidence, and that's why I believe he's ignoring the issue....Silence is golden..

But whatever...the situation is sorta hopeless, at least at this point :(
 
ivy said:
from my personal experience I can tell you that yes people will hate Eddie forever.

the band that I mentioned has been broken up for several years now and the lead singer is doing his own thing. Still some fan calls a show and accuses him of breaking the band. still whenever he releases any new work fans write that he's new work will never be as good as his work with the band , they'll never buy his albums or forgive him. Still during interviews he get the question of why they broke up and he still doesn't answer. He still thinks that the fans don't deserve an explanation simply based on the way that they acted. fans still do not know one single fact but they do believe that they have all the answers and figured it all out.


I didn't agree with them when they changed their minds and didn't release any statements. but today years later I agree that it was a futile attempt and they were already "hanged" and it couldn't be reversed.
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Okay, so Eddie is hurt.

Eddie has been "hanged".

Whatever!!!

But it's MICHAEL JACKSON here, not Eddie.

Michael Jackson has not been hung, has he?

Or has this situation hung him?

Eddie Cascio shouldn't give a darn either way if people accept him or not, if it's a "futile attempt".

He should set the record straight for Michael and Michael alone, if he really cares about Michael,

And if he REALLY believes this is hurting Michael, this whole controversy and this whole debate...

If he really feels that way, it's not about him anymore, this is about Michael...

And Michael isn't here to defend himself so Eddie or someone has to do it, or this debate could go on forever.

So Eddie thinks it's hurting Michael, and he could have the answers and evidence we need, he could at least give us his account of what went on. He could at least give examples of what Michael was like working on those songs in studio.

He could give us ANYTHING more.

Yet he does nothing and says it's hurting the legacy of his good friend. Foolish, completely foolish, and mean! In my opinion.
 
Ive been reading the past few pages. I feel a little guilty as a doubter, but being a believer i feel empty becuase i dont hear Michael on most tracks. (excluding Monster)
 
^^ Don't feel guilty because of what you hear or don't hear....It's not your job to shift your beliefs and what you hear because they can't be transparent with the fans. We're all trying to make sense of the situation and it's hurting the fanbase, but most of all, Michael and his legacy. That's the issue. It's not about us, it's about Michael...I don't want transparancy to appease myself...I want it for Michael...
 
Well, id like to believe that people are honest and good. After all, Michael went to the Cascios for years, and he even recorded there as i have come to learn. Why all the sudden would they just turn aganist Michael and give fake songs to Sony? You guys may say its for money....and it well likely cxould be.

BUT if the tracks are real and they were just messed up really really bad....we owe some people big apologies. How could we live with ourselves IF we are wrong? Knowing that we made assumptions, and helped tarnish someone's reputation for the time being. Would we be no better than the media that hounded Michael for years?

Then you may have a attitude: "Well i dont care. I know what i hear....or Where's the evidence?" well....i dont know what to say. I know, that being a "turned doubter" i would feel bad knowing that i helped hurt someone.
An example i will use is: The Holocust. Do you think after WW2 that some Nazi's/German people felt bad for discriminating aganist a race of people? Im sure some did. Knowing they cant take back the damage they did.
 
Billyjeanplxiv said:
Well, id like to believe that people are honest and good. After all, Michael went to the Cascios for years, and he even recorded there as i have come to learn. Why all the sudden would they just turn aganist Michael and give fake songs to Sony? You guys may say its for money....and it well likely cxould be.

BUT if the tracks are real and they were just messed up really really bad....we owe some people big apologies. How could we live with ourselves IF we are wrong? Knowing that we made assumptions, and helped tarnish someone's reputation for the time being. Would we be no better than the media that hounded Michael for years?

Then you may have a attitude: "Well i dont care. I know what i hear....or Where's the evidence?" well....i dont know what to say. I know, that being a "turned doubter" i would feel bad knowing that i helped hurt someone.
An example i will use is: The Holocust. Do you think after WW2 that some Nazi's/German people felt bad for discriminating aganist a race of people? Im sure some did. Knowing they cant take back the damage they did.
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:clapping:
 
Well, if it turns out we're wrong, then we're wrong...That's life....There could have been ways to prevent that, though...I'll admit I was wrong, and move on....I'm not gonna let it ruin my life, lol....

Either way, IF the songs are real, they should not have been released in the first place, and because of the way they sound, the Cascios should have known better than to release songs that don't do Michael justice, that ultimately sully his discography, his art, his blood, sweat and tears that he spent his life work on....Keep them in the damn vault then if they really, truly respect him and his legacy. If they care about Michael, then they need to deal with the consequences of what these songs have done and the way with which they've addressed the issue, or NOT address the issue, to be more precise.... It's not the fans fault and I stick to that...
 
Well admitting that we may be wrong wont help anyone at all. Thats like seeing someone getting robbed, and turning your head away. If we are wrong, i say we help try to undo the damage we may have caused.

Arklove, i agree. If these tracks are real, the way they sound is questionable still. I think they should remain in the vault. However, hearing any music Michael worked on....would be a honor and a sweet treat. I believe that releasing his unfinished work would be nice. Hold My Hand was lovely and such a treat to hear. We all enjoy Best of Joy, Behind the Mask, and Hollywood (bircheys mix i hope).
 
^^ What damage, though? The suspicion and skepticism? No wonder we feel that way! It's understandable from a fan's point of view. Of course, I'm speaking for myself and the other fans who haven't responded to this situation with hateful comments. I'm not a hateful person. But when you don't get answers, when you're ignored, and then blamed for causing the controversy, they shouldn't expect sunshine and roses.

Hearing unreleased material can only be enjoyed when the vocals aren't tampered with and basically started from scratch. But maybe that's just me.
 
Aniram said:
He should set the record straight for Michael and Michael alone, if he really cares about Michael,
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do you think the record could be set straight? Especially with this "I'm absolutely right" attitude?

I talked with many people and as far as I know there's no "absolute" evidence - such as video of Michael.

so let's go with the rumored evidence

handwritten lyrics - will it change the opinions of these "I am right it's 100% malachi" people?
sms messages between Michael and Eddie - come on we'll hear how it's doctored
musicians saying from their own mouth it's Michael - you know that fans will argue that they know Michael better then these people
expert reports - the reports that we know not to be perfect and has the possibility of being fooled and bought?

tell me how do you expect them to set this record straight and put this topic to rest? don't you see that if they don't have the absolute proof any more evidence they put out will only create more confusion and debate and not really bring any benefit.

Billyjeanplxiv said:
Well, id like to believe that people are honest and good. After all, Michael went to the Cascios for years, and he even recorded there as i have come to learn. Why all the sudden would they just turn aganist Michael and give fake songs to Sony? You guys may say its for money....and it well likely cxould be.

BUT if the tracks are real and they were just messed up really really bad....we owe some people big apologies. How could we live with ourselves IF we are wrong? Knowing that we made assumptions, and helped tarnish someone's reputation for the time being. Would we be no better than the media that hounded Michael for years?

Then you may have a attitude: "Well i dont care. I know what i hear....or Where's the evidence?" well....i dont know what to say. I know, that being a "turned doubter" i would feel bad knowing that i helped hurt someone.
An example i will use is: The Holocust. Do you think after WW2 that some Nazi's/German people felt bad for discriminating aganist a race of people? Im sure some did. Knowing they cant take back the damage they did.
Click to expand...

and that was what I was talking about with my initial posts and how I have a problem with accusing people without proof and with the delusion that I cannot be wrong. There's a thin line. It's okay to be skeptical about these songs and question them but some people have far passed that point and turned into a lynching mob. I never plan to be a part of that.

Arklove said:
^^ What damage, though? The suspicion and skepticism?
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do you think that musicians lined at Eddie's door to work with him? Porte?

how about by complaints removing their songs from later albums and from being single releases?

don't you think that if you are wrong that you have effectively killed their future music careers?

how about emotional distress? people calling them betrayers, frauds, liars, comparing them to Arvizo's Chandlers? How are you going to mend it? Do you remember how Michael was hurt by a certain word people call him?

Do you think "sorry my bad" will be enough?
 
ivy said:
and that was what I was talking about with my initial posts and how I have a problem with accusing people without proof and with the delusion that I cannot be wrong. There's a thin line. It's okay to be skeptical about these songs and question them but some people have far passed that point and turned into a lynching mob. I never plan to be a part of that.
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I dont want to be apart of the probelm, i want to work out a solution. I dont want to hang anyone. I know im not one of the ones who have far passed the point of sanity. I am however skeptical, and i question the songs. I also wish i could see some proof...but i also doubt that we will see any evidence. As you said Ivy "there may be little evidence"

I read somewhere that Michael didnt like to be recorded while recording. Michael was a personal private person.

All we may have is handwritten notes "if they exist"
and the music reports claimed to have been made...and even if "they may not be 100% accurate"
 
Handwritten lyrics, personal accounts of what went on, detailed accounts, you know...

Like... What did Michael say about the songs? What was it like? What did he think of them?

Just spill the whole beans on the songs and what you know, for the sake of Michael and his legacy.

That is, if he really thinks this is all hurting Michael...

Otherwise, in my opinion, he's full of it.

You can't just say something and then do nothing. All of us here have done more for Michael than Eddie has, in my opinion, by letting this nonsense continue...

Seriously, if Eddie released those things, if he gave us anything he had, if he gave a heartfelt explanation and told us everything he knows, if he related to the fans in any way whatsoever... SO MANY PEOPLE would be pleased, would be happy, would at least gain a bit of respect for Eddie.

I know I would!!!


And there are always going to be delusional people who, even after hearing Michael talking on the Hollywood Tonight Demo, will still think it's a fake song.
You can't help those people.

But you should not hold back your info just because a couple of delusional people will still refuse to accept it.
 
The Cascios didn't start their careers on a good foot by releasing songs that tarnish Michael Jackson's legacy. As an artist, you respect another fellow artist's legacy. They effectively damaged their own career, along with tarnishing Michael's own.

I never once compared them to the Arvizo's/Chandler's.

They did betray Michael for putting these songs out even IF they're Michael. They don't even sound like him! And certainly don't do him any justice. They were basically started from scratch and cut/pasted/massacred, etc...I don't accept that, and I'm damn sure Michael wouldn't either, considering what a perfectionist he was. This is a man who was obsessed with getting everything JUST right, who sweated over every detail...Who was disappointed with his historic Motown Billie Jean performance....If you love and respect Michael, if you've been friends with him for 25 years, you would know this and respect this and take these things into consideration before you go selling tracks in the state they're in.

Do you think they show any sorry for blaming the fans for the controversy and not communicating with them even though the fanbase is split and fighting?

Works both ways.
 
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