Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Aniram]

I don't know how Keep Your Head Up can be described as a perfect vocal.

In my opinion the vibrato completely messes up the potential power of the song. Once you realize it's there, it's hard to not notice it.

Even people who aren't fans of Michael Jackson notice the strange vibrato... That's not a perfect vocal, when random people are commenting on how screwed up it sounds.

 

[Dorian]

I don't know how Keep Your Head Up can be described as a perfect vocal.

In my opinion the vibrato completely messes up the potential power of the song. Once you realize it's there, it's hard to not notice it.

Even people who aren't fans of Michael Jackson notice the strange vibrato... That's not a perfect vocal, when random people are commenting on how screwed up it sounds.

That vibrato is added also in some copy pasted adlibs.As for flawless I think I was misunderstood.I was referring to the fact that he can keep up with the song, not that the vocals are perfect.

It's 9 AM in the morning here sorry .

 

[Pentum]

Remember that there are so many lines in the Cascio songs that are just pasted over another.

Example in B2N:

"And makes you wonde-e-e-er-friend of mine, sexy wine".

Also, what's so hard keeping up with the song? I'm keeping up with all songs I'm singing.

billyjean, looks lke you need to listen to some of the comparisons....

 

[ivy]

I think Dorian is talking about what I called as "flow" before by saying "keeping up with the song"...

Pentum lets try something. From Monster. please tell me what lines are pasted over each other. tell me the cuts and where and how they are pasted over

You can look at them coming out the walls
You can look at them climbing out the bushes
You can find them when the letter’s bout to fall
He be waiting with his camera on focus

Everywhere you seem to turn
there’s a monster
When you look up in the air there’s a monster
Paparazzi got you scared like a monster, monster, monster

same from kyhu

She's working two jobs, keeping alive,
She works in a restaurant night and day,
She waits her life away,
She wipes her tears away.

 

[dam2040]

@Pentum I used to hear people say it didn't sound like Jason because he supposedly struggles with keeping up with songs, I completely disagree myself

 

[Kapital77]

Billyjean, don't worry soon or later you will catch it is Jason on the tracks.There were many like you many months ago... that finally knows our truth.In my case, comparison posted on first days helped me to know it is Cupeta.

 

[Dorian]

I think Dorian is talking about what I called as "flow" before by saying "keeping up with the song"...

Exactly!LOL I couldn't remember the word .

 

[KingMikeJ]

Billyjean, don't worry soon or later you will catch it is Jason on the tracks.There were many like you many months ago... that finally knows our truth.In my case, comparison posted on first days helped me to know it is Cupeta.

Let her make her own decision.

 

[ivy]

Exactly!LOL I couldn't remember the word .

It's a hard thing to describe and I just came up the word with "flow". I'm not sure if that's the right word or not. You need to have a broader approach and listen to the full songs without focusing on the vibrato etc. When you do that you'll see that Jason struggles in his own songs and had a stop and go style due to his inexperienced nature. The cascio songs vocals have an ease, a flow to them which demonstrates a more technically advanced singer with better breathing ability.

now I'm curious about the cut and pastes in the above mentioned parts.

 

[SoCav]

I do not really understand the 'flow' argument. Why would the fact that the vocal melodies of Jason's songs generally have a different rhythm than a song like Monster mean that it is not him singing on Monster? I get the impression that you attribute these different rhythms to the singer's technique, whereas I think it is just a case of songwriting. It's just a different type of melody than we usually hear on a Jason Malachi song (although I have not heard all of his songs, so I am not even sure of that) - which makes sense, as the Cascio songs are written by different people than the Jason Malachi songs.

Why would Jason Malachi not be able to sing a song like Monster though? It's not like its terribly rhythmically complex - I have no trouble 'keeping up' with Monster and I am not a good singer at all. Plus, we are not talking about a live performance here, we are talking about a studio recording. He can cut as many takes as he wants and if he still has trouble keeping up with the song, software can be used to correct his flow afterwards.

To be honest, I find it difficult to understand how someone who believes that processing is capable of making Michael Jackson's voice sound extremely different (which I have seen you say, I think, ivy) can make an argument about flow. Would it not be much easier to make someone who does not have a terribly good flow stay in rhythm on a song than it would be to make someone's voice sound extremely different?

Btw, with regards to processing. I don't think I have seen anyone who believes it is Michael on those songs and who blames his different sounding voice on processing explain what type of processing this would have been? I am curious to hear what software/techniques you think are used.

 

[love is magical]

The discussion that tool place last night was interesting.

Ivy, I appreciate the personal experience you shared with us. It makes me try to see things from Eddie's perspective, which I failed to do most of the time.

While I understand why the base player in the band your worked with before were hurt by fans' comments, I also feel for the fans who loved the band and would like to get just an explanation. When the fans heard about the news of the band breaking up, many fans did not want to believe the news and were hurt. Hence, some of them might get emotional and said something they might later regret. I may sound heartless here, but the base player was a bit selfish and childish by not offering an explantion to the fans becasue of some negative commets in fan forum. How about the fans who were always loyal to them? Didn't he feel he punished himself and the fans by not giving any explanation?

It's not my intention to hurt anyone. It actually pains me to think that my doubts and skepticisms may hurt anyone, including Eddie. But, let's not generalize all doubters into one category. Of course, there are doubters who have strong conviction. Meanwhile, there are doubters, like me, who are actually willing to listen to Eddie, if he chooses to speak. The assumption that Eddie is hang by public opinion and nothing he can do to change peopel's opinions is simply not true. This controversy not only hurts Michael, but also the fans. This is an unfortunate lose-lose situation we are in.

It's true that the vocal quality of the songs Eddie produced is different from the other posthumously released Michael Jackson song. I cannot deny that. And, I just don't see how we can simply attribute the vocal difference to the songs' posthumous release nature. There are still many question marks in my mind.

 

[dam2040]

Let her make her own decision.

Your right, we shouldn't force opinions on others,we should just agree that we don't have the same opinons and move on,

 

[KingMikeJ]

The assumption that Eddie is hang by public opinion and nothing he can do to change peopel's opinions is simply not true.

:ermm:

I know I am absolutely correct.

I don't care. You will see in the end, that the doubters were always right. Please remember.

might be or might not be the case. honestly I don't care but I'm curious to see what will happen if people with such conviction are proven wrong. what then?

This will never happen, but if does, I'm dead.

 

[love is magical]

KingMikeJ,

Stella and Pentum are not representative of the whole fanbase. Again, it's not helpful to generalize all doubters into one group. There are people who have very strong convictions. Just like many things else in life, there are people who are very opinionated and will not compromised. But, there are also people who still have open minds and are willing to listen. To think that all doubters cannot reason and are unruly is just as ignorant.

Why don't you spend the time to find quotes from me, from Aniram, from Jesta and some others where we repeatedly asked our questions and begged for clarifications?

In my opinion, being more forth coming and keeping the communication channel open can help to solve difference. Of course it's Eddie Cascio who will utimately decide what's the best way for him to handle the situation. But, this world will be a much more chaotic place if people's attitude is "I'm hurt by people. They don't deserve an explanation. People can f*ck off."

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

Let her make her own decision.

Im a guy. Hence my name: Billy.

lol and i do believe that the tracks are vocally questionable. But i believe now a bit more than in the pervious weeks that Michael did sing on the tracks. I can hear a bit of him between overlayed vocals, autotuning, copy and paste etc. If you slow down the songs a bit in Audacity, i think you might hear a little more Michael...and less Jason. The Cascio tracks have been rumored to have been sped up a bit. Idk try lowing the speed of the song to about 0.974 on Audacity Beta.

 

[KingMikeJ]

Im a guy. Hence my name: Billy.

Oh yeah, sorry about that. :lol:

 

[Arklove]

I do not really understand the 'flow' argument. Why would the fact that the vocal melodies of Jason's songs generally have a different rhythm than a song like Monster mean that it is not him singing on Monster? I get the impression that you attribute these different rhythms to the singer's technique, whereas I think it is just a case of songwriting. It's just a different type of melody than we usually hear on a Jason Malachi song (although I have not heard all of his songs, so I am not even sure of that) - which makes sense, as the Cascio songs are written by different people than the Jason Malachi songs.

Why would Jason Malachi not be able to sing a song like Monster though? It's not like its terribly rhythmically complex - I have no trouble 'keeping up' with Monster and I am not a good singer at all. Plus, we are not talking about a live performance here, we are talking about a studio recording. He can cut as many takes as he wants and if he still has trouble keeping up with the song, software can be used to correct his flow afterwards.

To be honest, I find it difficult to understand how someone who believes that processing is capable of making Michael Jackson's voice sound extremely different (which I have seen you say, I think, ivy) can make an argument about flow. Would it not be much easier to make someone who does not have a terribly good flow stay in rhythm on a song than it would be to make someone's voice sound extremely different?

Btw, with regards to processing. I don't think I have seen anyone who believes it is Michael on those songs and who blames his different sounding voice on processing explain what type of processing this would have been? I am curious to hear what software/techniques you think are used.

I just wanted to comment on this....As far as 'flow' is concerned, I don't see it at all...This is why I don't see it: Monster and Let Me Let Go...both songs are very, very similar, not only in vocal, but in melody...Even if I'm listening carefully to a comparison of these two songs, even if I'm totally absorbed in the comparison, it's difficult to tell where one vocal/melody and entire song starts and where one ends....They completely flow into one another...All of it! So if I'm not paying attention at all, which I've done, I would be completely oblivious to the fact that they are different songs sung by supposedly two different people...

Not only that song, but I think it was a comparison of Room 2 Breathe and Keep Your Head Up, or one of the other ballads...The songs flow completely into each other, it's baffling, it really is....It's just not something to be ignored...

On top of that you add the snorts, the vibrato, the pronunciation....The vocals are just sooooo far off of Michael's own vocals and way too close to Jason's vocals...I'm not putting people down if they don't hear it, but I just don't understand HOW they don't hear it....To me, it all points that the vocals are fake...On top of all the other weird stuff that's gone one (PVC, shower, bad studio, among tons of other 'reasons', that everything was 'destroyed', including the hard drive it was on) like, what??? This doesn't make one question?

I just don't get it guys, I just don't get it :no: This should be raising red flags, not defense of these songs...I know we don't wanna condemn the Cascios and all....but that's difficult to do with all that's been going on....It's not something I can turn a blind eye about, nor should others....But that's just me and I can't let it go...

 

[dam2040]

But if MICHAEL JACKSON(!!) worked in YOUR studio, you would cherish EVERY single bit of footage,note or anything else you may have. Not a picture of a shower with a mic

 

[StellaJackson]

But if MICHAEL JACKSON(!!) worked in YOUR studio, you would cherish EVERY single bit of footage,note or anything else you may have. Not a picture of a shower with a mic

Yeah, Michael recorded part of one song with Barry Gibb and he's able to provide video of the recording. But Eddie seems to have nothing.

 

[StellaJackson]

KingMikeJ,

Stella and Pentum are not representative of the whole fanbase. Again, it's not helpful to generalize all doubters into one group. There are people who have very strong convictions. Just like many things else in life, there are people who are very opinionated and will not compromised. But, there are also people who still have open minds and are willing to listen. To think that all doubters cannot reason and are unruly is just as ignorant.

Why don't you spend the time to find quotes from me, from Aniram, from Jesta and some others where we repeatedly asked our questions and begged for clarifications?

In my opinion, being more forth coming and keeping the communication channel open can help to solve difference. Of course it's Eddie Cascio who will utimately decide what's the best way for him to handle the situation. But, this world will be a much more chaotic place if people's attitude is "I'm hurt by people. They don't deserve an explanation. People can f*ck off."

Thanks for that. I agree with you. My opinions represent me and no one else. I am 100% secure in my beliefs that it is Jason. In fact, I would say it is my "knowledge" that it is Jason, but I'm not going into that here.

 

[Arklove]

Yeah, Michael recorded part of one song with Barry Gibb and he's able to provide video of the recording. But Eddie seems to have nothing.

Yeah, exactly...We can say Michael didn't like being filmed while recording, and this may be true as a rule, but we've certainly seen him plenty of times in studio, and Eddie recorded 12 songs with Michael and he doesn't have a single shred of it on film? None at all? Really....

 

[ivy]

I just wanted to comment on this....As far as 'flow' is concerned, I don't see it at all...This is why I don't see it: Monster and Let Me Let Go...both songs are very, very similar, not only in vocal, but in melody...Even if I'm listening carefully to a comparison of these two songs, even if I'm totally absorbed in the comparison, it's difficult to tell where one vocal/melody and entire song starts and where one ends....They completely flow into one another...All of it! So if I'm not paying attention at all, which I've done, I would be completely oblivious to the fact that they are different songs sung by supposedly two different people...

Not only that song, but I think it was a comparison of Room 2 Breathe and Keep Your Head Up, or one of the other ballads...The songs flow completely into each other, it's baffling, it really is....It's just not something to be ignored...

On top of that you add the snorts, the vibrato, the pronunciation....The vocals are just sooooo far off of Michael's own vocals and way too close to Jason's vocals...I'm not putting people down if they don't hear it, but I just don't understand HOW they don't hear it....To me, it all points that the vocals are fake...On top of all the other weird stuff that's gone one (PVC, shower, bad studio, among tons of other 'reasons', that everything was 'destroyed', including the hard drive it was on) like, what??? This doesn't make one question?

I just don't get it guys, I just don't get it :no: This should be raising red flags, not defense of these songs...I know we don't wanna condemn the Cascios and all....but that's difficult to do with all that's been going on....It's not something I can turn a blind eye about, nor should others....But that's just me and I can't let it go...

first step outside the comparison audios - they are myopic in nature as they only focus on certain parts and certain words.

put jason malachi room 2 breath on play. close your eyes and listen till the end. forget vibrato etc and whether he sounds like michael or not. just pay attention to how he spaces his words. do you hear that he clearly separates his words? such as sometimes - you - need - to - step - outside - the - game.. continue listening the song. does it start to bug you in the end? do you get the feel that the spacing is annoying? finish the song

now play keep your head up. again don't worry about the voice , vibrato etc.. you are listening to the spacing. close your eyes. does it a lot more closely spaced? do you hear the ties the singer does? such as "shecries-s-s-sinside" listen to the end.. do you get that "easy flow" feel?

malachi - let me let go - again spacing.. do you hear the clearly separated words.

do I even have to write monster? it even sounds like it has been sung in one breath - I know it isn't and the faster up is making it feel like that.

listen to any michael jackson songs and you'll see that his words are more closely spaced and even tied to each other. for example he would be saying "ilove-e-you-u-more" like it's one word , that's what I keep calling "flow"

listen to any malachi songs and you'll see that his words are obviously spaced and his singing style sounds like " i - love - you - more" and have a stop and go feeling , lacking flow and seems like struggling

it's a overall feel you get and it's really hard to describe..

I'm hearing different techniques and different ability levels.

edited to add: you can even try justin timberlake's cry me a river and jason's acapella of it on youtube. if you compare jason's version you'll again hear that his words are more spaced then justin's are. and justin has flow and jason doesn't.

 

[StellaJackson]

first step outside the comparison audios - they are myopic in nature as they only focus on certain parts and certain words.

put jason malachi room 2 breath on play. close your eyes and listen till the end. forget vibrato etc and whether he sounds like michael or not. just pay attention to how he spaces his words. do you hear that he clearly separates his words? such as sometimes - you - need - to - step - outside - the - game.. continue listening the song. does it start to bug you in the end? do you get the feel that the spacing is annoying? finish the song

now play keep your head up. again don't worry about the voice , vibrato etc.. you are listening to the spacing. close your eyes. does it a lot more closely spaced? do you hear the ties the singer does? such as "shecries-s-s-sinside" listen to the end.. do you get that "easy flow" feel?

malachi - let me let go - again spacing.. do you hear the clearly separated words.

do I even have to write monster? it even sounds like it has been sung in one breath - I know it isn't and the faster up is making it feel like that.

listen to any michael jackson songs and you'll see that his words are more closely spaced and even tied to each other. for example he would be saying "ilove-e-you-u-more" like it's one word , that's what I keep calling "flow"

listen to any malachi songs and you'll see that his words are obviously spaced and his singing style sounds like " i - love - you - more" and have a stop and go feeling , lacking flow and seems like struggling

it's a overall feel you get and it's really hard to describe..

I'm hearing different techniques and different ability levels.

edited to add: you can even try justin timberlake's cry me a river and jason's acapella of it on youtube. if you compare jason's version you'll again hear that his words are more spaced then justin's are. and justin has flow and jason doesn't.

There is a very simple explanation for this. In Jason's own music, he is not trying to actually be Michael. In the Cascio tracks he is, so he is obviously going to go out of the way to make it sound as close as possible. And you can't just ignore the pronounciation, accent and vibrato. They are identical to Jason. Unless you have another explanation? And the comparisons don't focus on certain words or lines. The lengthy comparisons made by TPIMaster compare entire songs that are mixed together.

 

[ivy]

that's not "trying to be Michael". that's his style. that's his inferior style actually. look to justin example. same there. most singers over time and with training (with vocal coaches) develop better breathing styles which allows them to sing full sentences easily, they learn how to tie words etc.. when you listen (close your eyes) you get the feel that song is like "walk in the park" to them.. it has that ease that flow to it.. listen to any professional singer - even justin timberlake - you'll see it...

jason on the other hand is clearly less talented and more inferior.. jason isn't as talented as some of you make him out to be..

and if he was able to sing with a more superior technique (breathing and flow wise), there would be no reason to hold back on his own songs.

and yes I listened to TPImaster's comparison videos and mentioned the flow to him and he gave me examples from Jason's songs. Other than 2 line in 1 song jason was unable to have the "flow" that I'm talking about.

 

[love is magical]

ivy, i still don't understand the stop-and-go breakage you described. generally speaking, people don't pause between words when speaking or singing. i don't think jason is that bad that he has to breath between every words. i mean i can do better than that and i'm not a singer whatsoever. it seems to me that the spacing you heard is intentional due to rhythm of the songs and/or studio editings.

i, however, do agree with you that michael has unbelievable breathing technique. he's one master phraser. i am listening to RTT now. the way the first verse is sung sounds easy, but is actually quite difficult to get that smooth flow right. i wonder how many can sing RTT without messing up.

OT: am i the only one who get kicked out by mjjc every three minutes. by the time i finished typing, i'm asked to log on again. i don't know how many times i have to retype a post.

 

[ivy]

ivy, i still don't understand the stop-and-go breakage you described. generally speaking, people don't pause between words when speaking or singing. i don't think jason is that bad that he has to breath between every words. i mean i can do better than that and i'm not a singer whatsoever. it seems to me that the spacing you heard is intentional due to rhythm of the songs and/or studio editings.

i, however, do agree with you that michael has unbelievable breathing technique. he's one master phraser. i am listening to RTT now. the way the first verse is sung sounds easy, but is actually quite difficult to get that smooth flow right. i wonder how many can sing RTT without messing up.

OT: am i the only one who get kicked out by mjjc every three minutes. by the time i finished typing, i'm asked to log on again. i don't know how many times i have to retype a post.

no he's not breathing between all the words. this was something I was talking with bumper some time back. do you know multiple languages or heard them? that different people talk in a different rhythm? such as some nations talk faster, some are more slowly more spaced?

jason sings words in a fashion that they are clearly separated. he finishes his words. Michael sings words in a fashion that they are almost combined or tied together. I don't know how to explain. think of it like one of them is saying "you - all" and the other one is saying "y'all"

and you got what I'm talking about RTT - that feel that it's "so easy" , like a "walk in the park" with "smooth flow".

now listen to any jason's songs and tell me if it has that feel to them.

as for the rhythm of the songs do justin - cry me a river album release, justin -cry me a river live and jason -cry me a river acapella. you'll see that jason's words will be more spaced than justin. and justin doesn't even combine his words.

 

[StellaJackson]

no he's not breathing between all the words. this was something I was talking with bumper some time back. do you know multiple languages or heard them? that different people talk in a different rhythm? such as some nations talk faster, some are more slowly more spaced?

jason sings words in a fashion that they are clearly separated. he finishes his words. Michael sings words in a fashion that they are almost combined or tied together. I don't know how to explain. think of it like one of them is saying "you - all" and the other one is saying "y'all"

and you got what I'm talking about RTT - that feel that it's "so easy" , like a "walk in the park" with "smooth flow".

now listen to any jason's songs and tell me if it has that feel to them.

And how would you explain the Cascio vocalists vibrato being an exact match for Jason as well as the pronounciation, accent and youthfullness of the voice? Listening to Mamacita and Burn 2Nite back to back, the style, breathing etc is exactly the same. And you seem to be forgetting that the Cascio tracks are not recorded in the same way as one would normally expect. In some instances, entire lines are created by each word being from a separate take and cut together, making it sound like the singer is singing the entire line when he isn't. And don't forget that the breaths etc are all pasted in. You don't understand how the tracks were put together. You need to see the complete ProTools breakdown to understand this.

 

[ivy]

And how would you explain the Cascio vocalists vibrato being an exact match for Jason as well as the pronounciation, accent and youthfullness of the voice? Listening to Mamacita and Burn 2Nite back to back, the style, breathing etc is exactly the same. And you seem to be forgetting that the Cascio tracks are not recorded in the same way as one would normally expect. In some instances, entire lines are created by each word being from a separate take and cut together, making it sound like the singer is singing the entire line when he isn't. And don't forget that the breaths etc are all pasted in. You don't understand how the tracks were put together. You need to see the complete ProTools breakdown to understand this.

how do you know what I know and don't know? and did you see the complete protools breakdown? and haven't I been asking which words and where in songs are cut and pasted and get no response?

why do they need to cut and paste words if your lovely Jason is able to sound like Michael and have "flow" on demand? why would they need it if what I'm saying is just "due to rhythm" of his songs? do you want me to believe that they created "magic" by giving him the flow but they cannot correct the problematic vibrato?

so I'm confused here. what's your position? that Jason can sound like Michael when he wants and can deliver flow according to song style? or that he's talentless and they created the flow by studio magic? let me know when you make up your mind.

 

[KingMikeJ]

Thanks for that. I agree with you. My opinions represent me and no one else. I am 100% secure in my beliefs that it is Jason. In fact, I would say it is my "knowledge" that it is Jason, but I'm not going into that here.

So if you are 100% sure that it is Jason, what what your response be if Teddy released
a) handwritten lyrics
b) video footage of Michael recording

And before you say "these don't exist", I'm saying "What if?" Please give honest answers.

 

[StellaJackson]

how do you know what I know and don't know? and did you see the complete protools breakdown? and haven't I been asking which words and where in songs are cut and pasted and get no response?

why do they need to cut and paste words if your lovely Jason is able to sound like Michael and have "flow" on demand? why would they need it if what I'm saying is just "due to rhythm" of his songs? do you want me to believe that they created "magic" by giving him the flow but they cannot correct the problematic vibrato?

so I'm confused here. what's your position? that Jason can sound like Michael when he wants and can deliver flow according to song style? or that he's talentless and they created the flow by studio magic? let me know when you make up your mind.

Well first of all, please can you explain why you the vibrato, pronounciation, accent etc are an exact match for Jason? Why would Michael, for the course of 12 songs suddenly share all the same characteristics as Jason? Yes I have complete knowledge of the protools material. The smoking gun here is that the impersonator wasn't perfect. Many many takes were used. For example, the lines in the verses in Monster are not sung back to back. Each line is recorded individually and cut together in order to create a sense of flow, to make the singer sound better than he is. The breaths in between each line are pasted in. All the songs were originally at a slower tempo. Another issue is that there are certain MJ trademarks that can be found in his songs such as clicking fingers, tapping his foot etc. Or the "ah" he does. On the isolated lead vocal channel, these are completely absent from all 12 songs. For certain verses they used the lines that sounded best and cut them together. They had access to a tremendous amount of material. They also created new genuine MJ grunt patterns and beatboxes by cutting his old ones together.