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Michael - The Great Album Debate

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
I agree with you, but there are two main reasons why it can't work:

first - the fans are divided

second - as long as the Estate considers them genuine fighting against those tracks is just as if we fought against MJ himslef

Without any trace like worktapes etc and thanks to the Estate, yes the Cascio can get away with it. SONY is the least responsible in this case. They paid 250 millions for those tracks! It is "normal" that they protect their investment, any business would do so.
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1. I know they are and I don't expect the "believers" to participate since they don't have a problem with the songs. I was rather referring to the "doubters".

2. Well, thats the issue here. The official entities consider the songs to be genuine when we know they're not. Thats what we're fighting against since last November. I don't feel as if we're fighting against MJ, quite the contrary.

We need to find people(media preferably) that will take us seriously and investigate it on their own.

As for the comparison clips I have them uploaded on a streaming site but won't post it here untill I'm sure i can.
 
Willy said:
1. I know they are and I don't expect the "believers" to participate since they don't have a problem with the songs. I was rather referring to the "doubters".

2. Well, thats the issue here. The official entities consider the songs to be genuine when we know they're not. Thats what we're fighting against since last November. I don't feel as if we're fighting against MJ, quite the contrary.

We need to find people(media preferably) that will take us seriously and investigate it on their own.

As for the comparison clips I have them uploaded on a streaming site but won't post it here untill I'm sure i can.
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As long as there is no unity within the fanbase the fight will be hampered.

I didn't say that we fight against MJ, I meant that the Estate's word replaces MJ's word since MJ is not here to deal with the issue.

Regarding the investigation, it is sad, but if there are no traces to investigate nothing can really be investigated as long as those tracks are officially and legally accepted as genuine tracks. Someone within key people should speak out what happened to those songs if we want to learn more and investigate thoroughly. But so far they've all been simply mute.

You can post anything legal, which means comparisons of released songs. I said a few posts earlier what is strictly forbidden.
 
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Willy said:
1. I know they are and I don't expect the "believers" to participate since they don't have a problem with the songs. I was rather referring to the "doubters".

2. Well, thats the issue here. The official entities consider the songs to be genuine when we know they're not. Thats what we're fighting against since last November. I don't feel as if we're fighting against MJ, quite the contrary.

We need to find people(media preferably) that will take us seriously and investigate it on their own.

As for the comparison clips I have them uploaded on a streaming site but won't post it here untill I'm sure i can.
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It was stated by Friedman, who I believe was getting info from the Cascios in exchange for his support, thus why he broke the story about the songs, that McClain was reluctant to listen to them. This suggests to me that it was a private deal between Sony and EC, with the Estate's permission to use them coming after. They had those songs by the summer but the Estate didn't investigate the authenticity til mid October ie contacting Thad Nauden etc. So who raised the red flag? Taryll? Would he even know who Malachi was? And if Sony had been so confident all along then why did they also contact Nauden immediately after the Estate. Somebody, around 6 weeks after Riley and Stewart received their respective songs to work on, brought the suggestion of Malachi to the table. Who? What was said during the phone calls to Nauden? Why no denial from Nauden at the time and why the bragging? Just what was in the MJ Songbook? These are crucial question.
 
The other question is where were these songs recorded? Cupeta lives around 4 hours drive from Cascio. He works full time as a cop. I can't see them doing all those takes for all the songs in one weekend. Did he travel to the Cascio dungeon studio? Did he spend a week or more there? Did they record them somewhere neutral? Who was present at the sessions? Cascio, Porte and Cupeta? What about Frank Cascio? Can Jason Cupeta be traced to New Jersey between late 09/Spring 10? How was initial contact made between Eddie and Jason?
 
StellaJackson said:
It was stated by Friedman, who I believe was getting info from the Cascios in exchange for his support, thus why he broke the story about the songs, that McClain was reluctant to listen to them. This suggests to me that it was a private deal between Sony and EC, with the Estate's permission to use them coming after. They had those songs by the summer but the Estate didn't investigate the authenticity til mid October ie contacting Thad Nauden etc. So who raised the red flag? Taryll? Would he even know who Malachi was? And if Sony had been so confident all along then why did they also contact Nauden immediately after the Estate. Somebody, around 6 weeks after Riley and Stewart received their respective songs to work on, brought the suggestion of Malachi to the table. Who? What was said during the phone calls to Nauden? Why no denial from Nauden at the time and why the bragging? Just what was in the MJ Songbook? These are crucial question.
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Yes, that's what I call the Estate's negligence.

Taryll probably heard huge discrepancies --like all of us-- on those tracks, but didn't know about Malachi at that time.

Hence the question that I have been asking for a year -- have any musicologists and Teddy Riley ever heard of Malachi before saying that those tracks are genuine. Contacting Malachi to ask if he had to do anything with those songs is just laughable (as if he was going to say "yes, I did it").
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Yes, that's what I call the Estate's negligence.

Taryll probably heard huge discrepancies --like all of us-- on those tracks, but didn't know about Malachi at that time.

Hence the question that I have been asking for a year -- have any musicologists and Teddy Riley ever heard of Malachi before saying that those tracks are genuine. Contacting Malachi to ask if he had to do anything with those songs is just laughable (as if he was going to say "yes, I did it").
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I believe asking him if he was involved was the extent of their investigation regarding him. But who raised the possibility of it being him?
 
StellaJackson said:
The other question is where were these songs recorded? Cupeta lives around 4 hours drive from Cascio. He works full time as a cop. I can't see them doing all those takes for all the songs in one weekend. Did he travel to the Cascio dungeon studio? Did he spend a week or more there? Did they record them somewhere neutral? Who was present at the sessions? Cascio, Porte and Cupeta? What about Frank Cascio? Can Jason Cupeta be traced to New Jersey between late 09/Spring 10? How was initial contact made between Eddie and Jason?
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Just as I can't see MJ record 12 amateurish songs full of copy-pastes with James Porte and at the same time having nothing left in his own vault.
 
StellaJackson said:
I believe asking him if he was involved was the extent of their investigation regarding him. But who raised the possibility of it being him?
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The fans raised it!

But investigating and asking are two different things. They never investigated nor compared the voice to Malachi's.
 
StellaJackson said:
Bumper the 250 millions was the 10 project deal with the Estate. 1:TII soundtrack. 2:Vision 3: Michael plus 7 more by 2017. the Cascio tracks were bought seperately by Sony for around a quater of million per track at best estimate. They went straight to Sony with those songs, thus bypassing the Estate.
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what you refer to as "bought / sold" is actually not the songs but the exclusive release rights - to put the songs on the albums. However I don't think no record company would pay for them unless they got the approval from the other half of the equation - MJ Estate. What I'm trying to say is even though they "bought" the rights from Cascio and Porte , they would not be able to release them without the approval of the Estate. so no record company would pay quarter of a million per song for songs they don't know if they could release or not.

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Because of the Estate's lack of vigilance the songs passed as genuine.
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the examination listed at the Estate statement does not show "lack of vigilance".

They never investigated nor compared the voice to Malachi's.
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because it's leading. 'Is it Michael or not?" is the question to be answered. and for your argument "not Michael" is enough. "Who is it?" is not the question here.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
The fans raised it!

But investigating and asking are two different things. They never investigated nor compared the voice to Malachi's.
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No the fans didn't raise it until Breaking News streamed on Nov 8th. John Branca contacted Thad Nauden on October 18th. My point is that someone within, or close to, the Estate had raised the possibility of Jason's involvement at least several weeks before any of us heard BN.
 
StellaJackson said:
No the fans didn't raise it until Breaking News streamed on Nov 8th. John Branca contacted Thad Nauden on October 18th.
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As far as I know the report was issued after the fans' reaction. I don't know when they contacted JM, but it could have been done any time between the first streaming and the fans' reaction.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
As far as I know the report was issued after the fans' reaction. I don't know when they contacted JM, but it could have been done any time between the first streaming and the fans' reaction.
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It was done before the fans reactions and after the final track list determination in October. By the time they streamed Breaking News, they had already made their minds that the songs were authentic.
 
In my opinion, the very fact that they had to investigate the aunthenticity should have raised the red flag to a potential problem.
 
ivy said:
because it's leading. 'Is it Michael or not?" is the question to be answered. and for your argument "not Michael" is enough. "Who is it?" is not the question here.
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Maybe for you the question has been answered and you can live with it. But for many of us many questions have not been answered:

-vibrato
-husk/grit
-timbre
-copy-pastes in the middle fo the sentences
-ambiguity who sings what
etc...

Now all these characteristics can be found elsewhere than in MJ's voice, but of course if you limit yourself to a simple question and refuse to open the possibility that someone else might have sung them it is useless to discuss it.
 
As far as I am concerned, if I had the doubts and if I had the responsibility to investigate whether Jason had to do anything with it, I would not be convinced by their words only. I would compare his vocals and ask further questions.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
And who decides what has been done with style?
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Well, your posts were not done with style. Or class. And they certainly weren't art either. But I know that you don't get it and you never will, that's what I find disturbing. If you don't see the fine line between something that is suggestive and something that goes too far.

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
My pics came from kids allowed websites, deal with it.
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There is a huge difference between those pics being on the internet or plastering them all over a forum that is not meant for pics like that. Maybe you should find a forum where it is ok to post them, if they are so important to you, MJJC is not the right place for it.
 
ivy said:
it wasn't according to "me".
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I did not say it was. I just said if you can live with what they provide that's ok. I can't.

By the way asking if Malachi is on those tracks is not more leading than asking if it's MJ.

So if I hire musicologists and ask them simply: "analyse these vocals and tell me if you can tell if it is JM or not." If they come up with the answer "yes, it is." Then we'd have quite a conflicting situation, wouldn't we? But as long as we don't ask the question "is it Malachi or not?" there won't be any conflictual situation as no one will officially make the comparisons.

Milka said:
Well, your posts were not done with style. Or class. And they certainly weren't art either. But I know that you don't get it and you never will, that's what I find disturbing. If you don't see the fine line between something that is suggestive and something that goes too far.
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Thanks for the compliments, but just for your info, first my posts are not ONLY suggestive sex or jokes. You are obsessively focusing on those very posts right now as if I had never posted anything else. I can handle a serious conversation too. By the way I never meant to present them as art, but as jokes, so chillax.

I can see the line between what is suggestive and what is too far, but let's agree to disagree and say that your line is not mine. I never explicitely posted anything related to sex, so get over it.



Milka said:
There is a huge difference between those pics being on the internet or plastering them all over a forum that is not meant for pics like that. Maybe you should find a forum where it is ok to post them, if they are so important to you, MJJC is not the right place for it.
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You may dislike the pictures, but I did not break any rules as I explained that all the pics come from kids-allowed sites. The only rule I did not respect --as many in this thread, you included-- is being off-topic. Now, eat some chocolate it will help you to recover from the pics I posted.
 
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