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Michael - The Great Album Debate

qbee said:
Yes thats what I want to know. Why would MJ change his dialect and accent the way he pronounced words for just the casico tracks on not any other tracks he was recording. These are the ONLY tracks were MJ's voice sound off foreign to us.
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Yes, and why would anyone want to sing in a different accent? For 12 songs? Why sing that way? When Michael sings, it's effortless, it just flows out of him...In order to change his accent, he'd have to force it...And if he was just 'experimenting', why for 12 songs then?
 
love is magical said:
I don't understand why Michael would lose his tremendous singing ability only in these 12 songs. Possible reason #1: He may be sick. Yet, he's well enough to do not one, not two, but 12 demos. Possible reason #2: These were scratch vocals. Okay, why would the Michael Jackson did scratch vocals on songs that were mostly written an sung by others previously? To me, it makes more sense for Eddie and James Porte to play the demos with vocals recorded to Michael. Possible reason #3: Michael wasn't trying. But, since when Michael needed to struggle to sound good? He recorded Fall Again while watching his children playing.
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The other issue with reason no.1 is that WBSS 08 was recorded there. Same studio. Same equipment. Same time. Yet it sounds nothing like the Cascio vocalist.
 
Arklove said:
Yes, and why would anyone want to sing in a different accent? For 12 songs? Why sing that way? When Michael sings, it's effortless, it just flows out of him...In order to change his accent, he'd have to force it...And if he was just 'experimenting', why for 12 songs then?
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Maybe he felt he still had one more goal to accomplish in his career: to be the greatest Jason Malachi impersonator that ever lived. In that he succeeded.
 
love is magical said:
I don't understand why Michael would lose his tremendous singing ability only in these 12 songs. Possible reason #1: He may be sick. Yet, he's well enough to do not one, not two, but 12 demos. Possible reason #2: These were scratch vocals. Okay, why would the Michael Jackson did scratch vocals on songs that were mostly written an sung by others previously? To me, it makes more sense for Eddie and James Porte to play the demos with vocals recorded to Michael. Possible reason #3: Michael wasn't trying. But, since when Michael needed to struggle to sound good? He recorded Fall Again while watching his children playing.
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He recorded Fall Again while watching his children play really? I love that song. I wish it was on invincible. I don't know what to think about the cascio songs. I don't know why songs that were not Michael be put on the album for? I don't get the reason or motivation for that.
 
StellaJackson said:
One word to explain how they ended up on the album: Incompetence.

Two words to explain why they were made in the first place: Selfishness and arrogance.

One word that covers the entire situation: Greed.

One word that everybody forgot when it came to putting this album together: Respect.
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That could be yeah. If anyone working on the album had doubts that I assume those 3 songs could have been easily replaced with something else Michael did.I can still remember how everyone was looking forward to the album and it turned into all this mess.
 
marebear said:
He recorded Fall Again while watching his children play really? I love that song. I wish it was on invincible. I don't know what to think about the cascio songs. I don't know why songs that were not Michael be put on the album for? I don't get the reason or motivation for that.
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Yes. According to the writer of the song, Michael's children were in the next room, he had a camera installed in the room, do he could see his children while in the studio recording. I wish I have the link to that story now. BTW, the demo is a one-take memo. Michael didn't even have time to fully study the song. He agreed to do a demo. After recording the demo, he had to rush to attend the children as one of them misbehaved.
 
love is magical said:
Yes. According to the writer of the song, Michael's children were in the next room, he had a camera installed in the room, do he could see his children while in the studio recording. I wish I have the link to that story now. BTW, the demo is a one-take memo. Michael didn't even have time to fully study the song. He agreed to do a demo. After recording the demo, he had to rush to attend the children as one of them misbehaved.
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That is so interesting. I can just picture that. I think that is a pretty good one take. I am not an expert. I listen to it often.
 
Garden said:
I don't know, it's not the first time Michael ommits characters in a word... maybe there's a reason. Pronouncing the t makes the duration of the word a tiny little bit longer and it can be that a shorter duration was wanted for making the line more fluent... It would not surprise me. Didn't Michael sing "Heal The Worl"? (wirl lol) On other ocasions I clearly heard him pronounce "world"... @ Chamife : excellent idea! I'ld offer you a beautiful smiley now but I'm on phone modus and it doesn't work... Op voorhand al cheers op onze goede verstandhouding :)!
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As a linguist I can safely tell when someone is using a dialect and when someone is playing with languages sounds. The Cascio singer uses what appears to be MD's dialect.

Michael never did similar pronunciation to the Cascio singer. I am positive about that and I already elaborated my answer on a page 1700 or something. Music has nothing to do with someone's dialect.

When Michael plays with sounds you get something like "trrrr, tap tap, trrrr tapatap" in Remember The Time video while he's dancing. Or a beatbox as in Who Is It. Or hiccups, aows, hee-hees, gulps, yelps, cham-ons, dahs, hee-hees, tchikan atcha ooow as in TWYMMF, etc, etc. But MJ never used MD English characteristics, not to mention that the voice alone doesn't sound "orthodox" MJ's.

I'll give you an example, and fans from London can confirm, Londonians don't say "a bottle of water" but "a bo'l o' wo'a" . This is quite common phenomenon with Maryland's English.

Or if you prefer, to make it easier for you, in Westvlaams dialect, exactly the same phenomenon exists -ellision of consonants:

the standard Dutch "Wij gaan chokolade koeken maken" becomes in Western Flemish dialect: "We goon cho'ola koe'e ma'a".

MJ had never used such common dialectal characteristics, neither in his speeches, nor in his songs.

At one point MJ even uses the British pronunciation of the word "better". Despite that, he remains consistant and uses the standard pronunciation without elliding the "tt"s, whereas even in Britain the ellision is quite common.

p.s. In Heal The World, MJ pronounces the words without any dialectal influence. I don't recollect that he ellided the "d" at the end of the word, but even if he let's say did it, it is not a dialectal characteristics, but his own way of pronouncing it.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
As a linguist I can safely tell when someone is using a dialect and when someone is playing with languages sounds. The Cascio singer uses what appears to be MD's dialect.

Michael never did similar pronunciation to the Cascio singer. I am positive about that and I already elaborated my answer on a page 1700 or something. Music has nothing to do with someone's dialect.

When Michael plays with sounds you get something like "trrrr, tap tap, trrrr tapatap" in Remember The Time video while he's dancing. Or a beatbox as in Who Is It. Or hiccups, aows, hee-hees, gulps, yelps, cham-ons, dahs, hee-hees, tchikan atcha ooow as in TWYMMF, etc, etc. But MJ never used MD English characteristics, not to mention that the voice alone doesn't sound "orthodox" MJ's.

I'll give you an example, and fans from London can confirm, Londonians don't say "a bottle of water" but "a bo'l o' wo'a" . This is quite common phenomenon with Maryland's English.

Or if you prefer, to make it easier for you, in Westvlaams dialect, exactly the same phenomenon exists -ellision of consonants:

the standard Dutch "Wij gaan chokolade koeken maken" becomes in Western Flemish dialect: "We goon cho'ola koe'e ma'a".

MJ had never used such common dialectal characteristics, neither in his speeches, nor in his songs.

At one point MJ even uses the British pronunciation of the word "better". Despite that, he remains consistant and uses the standard pronunciation without elliding the "tt"s, whereas even in Britain the ellision is quite common.

p.s. In Heal The World, MJ pronounces the words without any dialectal influence. I don't recollect that he ellided the "d" at the end of the word, but even if he let's say did it, it is not a dialectal characteristics, but his own way of pronouncing it.
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Yes I read all of your texts here on this thread Bumper, I know your points of view. They always seem plausible and you earn a bouquet of flowers at least for your research and your efforts for this cause. Here you have it :give_flowers:, that's for your never diminuishing efforts.
Now for me, I don't know exactly why Bumper, is it me, is it you, but you can't completely convince me... But good for you there are plenty of others who do share your insights. You are good at what you do, please go on and keep enjoying it.
 
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Garden said:
Yes I read all of your texts here on this thread Bumper, I know your points of view. They always seem plausible and you earn a bouquet of flowers at least for your research and your efforts for this cause. Here you have it :give_flowers:, that's for your never diminuishing efforts.
Now for me, I don't know exactly why Bumper, is it me, is it you, but you can't completely convince me... But good for you there are plenty of others who do share your insights. You are good at what you do, please go on and keep enjoying it.
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Thanks for the flowers Garden.

You know, when I post something it's just like thinking aloud, my aim is not to convince anyone of anything. On the contrary, I exposed what I hear and I read what others say in the quest to try to assemble all the pieces of the puzzle which I do not detain.

In this particular case, although my Dutch is far from being perfect, I can however say when someone is from the Netherlands or from Belgium. The same goes for the Cascio singer. Although I don't speak MD's dialect, I can hear some elements of it and tell MJ never used it.

p.s. The reason why I am often playful is because I don't take myself seriously. Those who can think for themselves don't need anyone to convince them of anything. Yet, those who choose to believe me what I say, I am reassuring them, I am not playing any games. I am playfully serious and seriously playful.
 
As I see some people wrote their favorite songs from "Michael" so here are mine ;)

#1 Monster
#2 Hollywood Tonight
#3 Hold My Hand
#4 (I Can't Make It) Another Day
#5 Best Of Joy
#6 Behind The Mask
#7 Keep Your Head Up
#8 (I Like) The Way You Love Me
#9 Breaking News
# 10 Much Too Soon

And if anyone asked me if I would like the remaining Cascio songs to be released someday my answer is and will always be Yes.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
As I see some people wrote their favorite songs from "Michael" so here are mine ;)

#1 Monster
#2 Hollywood Tonight
#3 Hold My Hand
#4 (I Can't Make It) Another Day
#5 Best Of Joy
#6 Behind The Mask
#7 Keep Your Head Up
#8 (I Like) The Way You Love Me
#9 Breaking News
# 10 Much Too Soon

And if anyone asked me if I would like the remaining Cascio songs to be released someday my answer is and will always be Yes.
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Is Monster your favorite song?
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
As I see some people wrote their favorite songs from "Michael" so here are mine ;)

#1 Monster
#2 Hollywood Tonight
#3 Hold My Hand
#4 (I Can't Make It) Another Day
#5 Best Of Joy
#6 Behind The Mask
#7 Keep Your Head Up
#8 (I Like) The Way You Love Me
#9 Breaking News
# 10 Much Too Soon

And if anyone asked me if I would like the remaining Cascio songs to be released someday my answer is and will always be Yes.
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Mine:

#1 Hollywood Tonight
#2 Hold My Hand
#3 (I Can't Make It) Another Day
#4 Behind The Mask
#5 (I Like) The Way You Love Me
#6 Much Too Soon
#7 Best Of Joy
#0 Breaking News
#0 Monster
#0 Keep Your Head Up
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
As I see some people wrote their favorite songs from "Michael" so here are mine ;)

#1 Monster
#2 Hollywood Tonight
#3 Hold My Hand
#4 (I Can't Make It) Another Day
#5 Best Of Joy
#6 Behind The Mask
#7 Keep Your Head Up
#8 (I Like) The Way You Love Me
#9 Breaking News
# 10 Much Too Soon

And if anyone asked me if I would like the remaining Cascio songs to be released someday my answer is and will always be Yes.
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Do you think that is fair for MJ?
 
Mine:

Behind the Mask
Hollywood Tonight
The way you love me
Another Day
Hold my hand
Much too soon
Best of joy

And imposter's (after all of above mentioned):

Monster
Breaking News
Keep Your Head Up
 
BUMPER SNIPPET;3608710 said:
I bet "MJ" recorded more songs for the Cascios than for himself.

Kako je vrijeme u Rijeci? Ima l' sunca? :)
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Yes, and will record more in the future..

Evo u Rijeci sunce već par dana, uranilo proljeće.. Odakle si ti majstore, vidim zastava se vijori, al ne piše grad gore?
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
p.s. The reason why I am often playful is because I don't take myself seriously. Those who can think for themselves don't need anyone to convince them of anything. Yet, those who choose to believe me what I say, I am reassuring them, I am not playing any games. I am playfully serious and seriously playful.
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seriously playful. Hmmm. I like that. :naughty:
 
OnirMJ;3608715 said:
Yes, and will record more in the future..
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Hahahaha! :)

OnirMJ;3608715 said:
Evo u Rijeci sunce već par dana, uranilo proljeće.. Odakle si ti majstore, vidim zastava se vijori, al ne piše grad gore?
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Ja sam s otoka Braca i iz Sarajeva ;)
love is magical;3608716 said:
seriously playful. Hmmm. I like that. :naughty:
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Loooooooool
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Mine: Behind the Mask Hollywood Tonight The way you love me Another Day Hold my hand Much too soon Best of joy And imposter's (after all of above mentioned): Monster Breaking News Keep Your Head Up
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:) Nice to see another big Behind The Mask lover!
 
OnirMJ said:
There is another Cascio/Porte song on wikipedia "List of unreleased Michael Jackson material" article. The song is "Shine". Any info about that? Any connection with those 12 or not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unreleased_Michael_Jackson_material

http://repertoire.bmi.com/writer.as...67238&keyname=CASCIO EDDIE&querytype=WriterID
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This is a common mistake and it comes from the registrations with the BMI publishing catalogue site. There are 14 songs registered to Eddie Cascio there. 13 of those are the "Cascio" tracks (Monster is registered as a rap and non-rap version). The 14th track is indeed called Shine but it has nothing to do with MJ. It is a song performed by a gospel singer called Duwayne Starling, although it didn't make either of his albums. Now what is interesting, and I don't see it discussed ever, is that Starling is also credited in the album booklet as a backing vocalist on Keep Your Head Up. Here is a video of him performing.


[youtube]T3UxxvVFCjk[/youtube]
 
StellaJackson said:
This is a common mistake and it comes from the registrations with the BMI publishing catalogue site. There are 14 songs registered to Eddie Cascio there. 13 of those are the "Cascio" tracks (Monster is registered as a rap and non-rap version). The 14th track is indeed called Shine but it has nothing to do with MJ. It is a song performed by a gospel singer called Duwayne Starling, although it didn't make either of his albums. Now what is interesting, and I don't see it discussed ever, is that Starling is also credited in the album booklet as a backing vocalist on Keep Your Head Up. Here is a video of him performing.


[youtube]T3UxxvVFCjk[/youtube]
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Thanks for the info. Interesting..
 
StellaJackson said:
This is a common mistake and it comes from the registrations with the BMI publishing catalogue site. There are 14 songs registered to Eddie Cascio there. 13 of those are the "Cascio" tracks (Monster is registered as a rap and non-rap version). The 14th track is indeed called Shine but it has nothing to do with MJ. It is a song performed by a gospel singer called Duwayne Starling, although it didn't make either of his albums. Now what is interesting, and I don't see it discussed ever, is that Starling is also credited in the album booklet as a backing vocalist on Keep Your Head Up. Here is a video of him performing. [youtube]T3UxxvVFCjk[/youtube]
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(Off topic) Aleluia, that man got Soul running through his veins!
 
Such a shame he's in the backing vocals. I'd prefer him singing the lead over the current lead vocalist.

Maybe I would have believed the lyrics then, despite the amateur writing.
 
qbee said:
Yes thats what I want to know. Why would MJ change his dialect and accent the way he pronounced words for just the casico tracks on not any other tracks he was recording. These are the ONLY tracks were MJ's voice sound off foreign to us.
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He didn't change his accent or his dialect. It's your imagination and your will to believe that's playing tricks on you, as well as the presence of James Porte on vocals.

Like I've pointed out before, MJ sings the word "lost" as if it was pronounced "La-auh-st" in "You are my life". Doesn't mean the song was sung by an English impersonator.

As for why the vocals are weaker on the Cascio songs than on other songs, well actually they aren't always. KYHU is a nice performance; indeed, if that song had been the first one leaked, the whole controversy would have never happened. But yeah, on some other songs, MJ is obviously not trying hard -- which makes perfect sense, as these were incomplete vocals that were never meant to be released. And when some people say, well I've heard MJ ad-lib songs in videos and he always sounds incredible, again that's just beause that's what you choose to believe. I personally think his vocal on "Beautiful Girl", for example, is awful : nasal, stuffed-up, like he has a cold.

I'll add "All I need" to the list of Cascio songs with nice MJ vocals.

You know, from the first moment I heard MJ recorded those songs with Eddie while he was living with them in 2007, I thought, "he's doing this because he's broke and has no place to stay, so basically he's paying them for taking care of his family by helping Eddie with his music". That would explain MJ's lack of interest for the songs either while they were recorded or after. He loved the Cascios, but I'm not sure he was humble enough to include an unknown 19-year-old kid's songs on his next album.
 
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kreen said:
He didn't change his accent or his dialect. It's your imagination and your will to believe that's playing tricks on you, as well as the presence of James Porte on vocals.
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Are you joking? It's our imagination that the singer pronounces the word waiting = wai'in, JUST like Jason does?
 
@Kreen, in 1991, Michael was arguably on top of his game after the unprecedented success of Thriller and Bad, he was humble enough to include Teddy Riley, a producer who's still in his early 20's in Dangerous, a major artistic breakthrough.

BTW, Eddie is my age. He was in his mid to late 20's in 2007.

According to your theory, these tracks are demos that Michael had never considered releasing. Basically, he's so broke that he needed to pay the Cascios by singing in the basement (although I think Michael has too much dignity to ever entertain such idea). Then, it's fair to say these are songs fabricated from unwanted demos.
 
kreen said:
He didn't change his accent or his dialect. It's your imagination and your will to believe that's playing tricks on you, as well as the presence of James Porte on vocals.

Like I've pointed out before, MJ sings the word "lost" as if it was pronounced "La-auh-st" in "You are my life". Doesn't mean the song was sung by an English impersonator.

As for why the vocals are weaker on the Cascio songs than on other songs, well actually they aren't always. KYHU is a nice performance; indeed, if that song had been the first one leaked, the whole controversy would have never happened. But yeah, on some other songs, MJ is obviously not trying hard -- which makes perfect sense, as these were incomplete vocals that were never meant to be released. And when some people say, well I've heard MJ ad-lib songs in videos and he always sounds incredible, again that's just beause that's what you choose to believe. I personally think his vocal on "Beautiful Girl", for example, is awful : nasal, stuffed-up, like he has a cold.

I'll add "All I need" to the list of Cascio songs with nice MJ vocals.

You know, from the first moment I heard MJ recorded those songs with Eddie while he was living with them in 2007, I thought, "he's doing this because he's broke and has no place to stay, so basically he's paying them for taking care of his family by helping Eddie with his music". That would explain MJ's lack of interest for the songs either while they were recorded or after. He loved the Cascios, but I'm not sure he was humble enough to include an unknown 19-year-old kid's songs on his next album.
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We all have hell of imagination.

I just wonder how we managed to have the same imagination at the same time in different parts of the world without knowing each other and without talking to each other. We must have some super telepathic powers.

How convincing coming from someone who doesn't appreciate the album INVINCIBLE.
 
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