MJ’s smartest move

[HIStory]

^ So you measure everything in record sales?

And actually even your analysis of sales sounds rather arbitrary to me, but your statement was not about sales. Your statement was:

his most full adult oriented album regarding theme and subject matter was Thriller

This has nothing to do with record sales. Your claim was that Thriller has more adult oriented themes and subject matters than all of his other albums. Well, how is that true? Please show me how the themes on the Thriller album are more adult oriented than, say, the themes and lyrics on Dangerous or HIStory. Sales is no proof of any of that - especially when you have no actual data of the ages of the people who bought that album and even if you had you cannot make statements in the name of all of those people about why they bought that album - because of the music or the themes on it.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Thriller is the biggest selling album of all the time but it doesn't mean Michael was less successful because his subsequent albums sold less copies. He had the short film with more views in a premier with Black Or White, the most lucrative music contract in the 90s, the biggest selling double disc with HIStory his biggest grossing world tour with that album, the biggest selling remix album with Blood On The Dance Floor, the most watched tv interview, he put the Super Bowl half time shows on the map. Maybe people have the perception Michael was loved the most during Thriller but it was mainly in USA, after he released and toured with Bad, he was loved worldwide. My point is, even if he sold more copies with Thriller, he appealed a wider audience with his next ones and achieved bigger things in the 90s despite the humongous crusade the media embarked to destroy him.

Forgot to add, it's noticeable Brighter Days hasn't listened Michael's albums from the 90s, who had more adult, dark and way more complex subjects than any of the albums he did with Q. And IMO he wrote more meaningful lyrics with those albums and every genre he used took it to another level.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Thriller is the biggest selling album of all the time but it doesn't mean Michael was less successful because his subsequent albums sold less copies. He had the short film with more views in a premier with Black Or White, the most lucrative music contract in the 90s, the biggest selling double disc with HIStory his biggest grossing world tour with that album, the biggest selling remix album with Blood On The Dance Floor, the most watched tv interview, he put the Super Bowl half time shows on the map. Maybe people have the perception Michael was loved the most during Thriller but it was mainly in USA, after he released and toured with Bad, he was loved worldwide. My point is, even if he sold more copies with Thriller, he appealed a wider audience with his next ones and achieved bigger things in the 90s despite the humongous crusade the media embarked to destroy him.

Forgot to add, it's noticeable Brighter Days hasn't listened Michael's albums from the 90s, who had more adult, dark and way more complex subjects than any of the albums he did with Q. And IMO he wrote more meaningful lyrics with those albums and every genre he used took it to another level.

I bought every single michael jackson album upon release from BAD on

 

[barbee0715]

Adults were buying that album, especially after Billie Jean hit #1 on both the black music charts and then pop radio that followed, the song was already ar the top before he performed it on Motown 25, when he said, he liked the new songs, it was adults in that audience who were screaming for him to perform billie jean. Then after, when he released the videos fir billie jean and beat it, thats when the teenagers started buying Thriller and from that point on, he had a great balance of support from adults and teenagers alike.

That ended with the Bad album and the record sales reflected that

Do you mean that adults weren't buying Bad? Only teenagers? Because I was in my 20's then, and I could not WAIT for that album to be released and I was at the record store that day.

Or did you mean Dangerous and afterward?

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

I bought every single michael jackson upon release from BAD on

I don't know how you can say Thriller was an adult oriented album then. Even when he talked about the recklessness of having unprotected sex in Billie Jean, the album has an air of happiness and innocence for the most part. It disappeared completely in Dangerous, HIStory and BOTDF since they're his darkest and crudest ones, well Dangerous a little less than its predecessors.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

I don't know how you can say Thriller was an adult oriented album then. Even when he talked about the recklessness of having unprotected sex in Billie Jean, the album has an air of happiness and innocence for the most part. It disappeared completely in Dangerous, HIStory and BOTDF since they're his darkest and crudest ones, well Dangerous a little less than its predecessors.

The Girl Is Mine, Billie Jean, PYT, and especially Lady In My Life received enormous airplay on adult contemporary radio. Lady In My Life was the most requested love song on the Quiet Storn music segment on black radio at nighttime, it was often the last song to be played during that segment

 

[barbee0715]

IMO, Thriller is a very adult album with complex, dark themes that Michael kept exploring in his subsequent albums.

Maybe because of its crazy popularity or the organic and sophisticated arrangements instead of more electronic, industrial music, people don't remember it that way.

But besides Billie Jean and unprotected sex and false paternity claims, you have WBSS with the people who abuse you and use you. The ones who chew you up and spit you out. You have songs about one night stands in HN, interracial relationships with TGIM, gang and youth violence in the streets with Beat it. You also have his most wildly adult and passionate seduction song with LIML.

Michael definitely came of age in that album.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Thriller is the biggest selling album of all the time but it doesn't mean Michael was less successful because his subsequent albums sold less copies. He had the short film with more views in a premier with Black Or White, the most lucrative music contract in the 90s, the biggest selling double disc with HIStory his biggest grossing world tour with that album, the biggest selling remix album with Blood On The Dance Floor, the most watched tv interview, he put the Super Bowl half time shows on the map. Maybe people have the perception Michael was loved the most during Thriller but it was mainly in USA, after he released and toured with Bad, he was loved worldwide. My point is, even if he sold more copies with Thriller, he appealed a wider audience with his next ones and achieved bigger things in the 90s despite the humongous crusade the media embarked to destroy him.

Forgot to add, it's noticeable Brighter Days hasn't listened Michael's albums from the 90s, who had more adult, dark and way more complex subjects than any of the albums he did with Q. And IMO he wrote more meaningful lyrics with those albums and every genre he used took it to another level.

Thriller sold more copies internationally than all his following albums but he had the support of the american audience simultaneously

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Most of the media loved Thriller, it'd receive heavy rotation on radio stations, the short films on MTV, etc. You still fail to explain how it's more adult oriented in comparison to albums talking about lust, racism, prejudice, injustice, child abuse, anger, depression, etc.

Anyhow, it was very smart of Michael parting ways with QJ. His artistry, genius and talent grew up enormously in the 90s allowing him to explore new territories.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Most of the media loved Thriller, it'd receive heavy rotation on radio stations, the short films on MTV, etc. You still fail to explain how it's more adult oriented in comparison to albums talking about lust, racism, prejudice, injustice, child abuse, anger, depression, etc.

Anyhow, it was very smart of Michael parting ways with QJ. His artistry, genius and talent grew up enormously in the 90s allowing him to explore new territories.

Michael Jackson switched producers not because of anything to do with artistic growth but because Bad didnt outsell Thriller, he expected to sell 100 million copies of Bad when it went on to sale 25 million

Yes he made accomplished music in his career after Thriller but his most prolific, groundbreaking, signature music was whie working with Quincy Jones

When he started working on his last studio album which became known as Invincible, initially he did not seek Rodney Jerkins to produce, he wanted Quincy Jones to do it as he was attempting to rekindle the maguc

 

[barbee0715]

Michael Jackson switched producers not because of anything to do with artistic growth but because Bad didnt outsell Thriller, he expected to sell 100 million copies of Bad when it went on to sale 25 million

You said that before in another thread about Q, but what makes you think that? It sounds credible to me, but I've never heard that before.

I know Music was definitely changing and Teddy Riley has taken full credit for reintroducing Michael to young urban kids. Which is why NJS and rap are on the album.

(Even though I personally was disappointed with the new sound because I was no longer in that 15-25 yrs old record buying demo, I always thought of Michael as someone who liked ALL types of music and I never thought he was pandering to young fans. And some of it really grew on me,)

When he started working on his last studio album which became known as Invincible, initially he did not seek Rodney Jerkins to produce, he wanted Quincy Jones to do it as he was attempting to rekindle the maguc

Again, I've never heard that either. Is that from Quincy?

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

You said that before in another thread about Q, but what makes you think that? It sounds credible to me, but I've never heard that before.

I know Music was definitely changing and Teddy Riley has taken full credit for reintroducing Michael to young urban kids. Which is why NJS and rap are on the album.

(Even though I personally was disappointed with the new sound because I was no longer in that 15-25 yrs old record buying demo, I always thought of Michael as someone who liked ALL types of music and I never thought he was pandering to young fans. And some of it really grew on me,)


Again, I've never heard that either. Is that from Quincy?

It sounds credible because its true. After Bad did not surpass Thriller, Michael switched producer and manager. He was shocked and focused on becoming an international artist exclusively, and thats a major reason why his sales domestically was not able to return back to what he had grown accustomed to


If he was able to maintain his urban audience with Bad, he would not have felt the need the backing of Teddy Riley to try and regain it, even with that, Dangerous which I felt was an excellent album sold 6 million copies domestically during its initial run as Bad did

When Michael began working on his last studio album during the summer of 1999, it was being reported on urban radio, entertainment sources that Michael asked Quincy to collaborate together once again because he was trying to return back full circle to try and regain his American audience altogether

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

It sounds credible because its true. After Bad did not surpass Thriller, Michael switched producer and manager. He was shocked and focused on becoming an international artist exclusively, and thats a major reason why his sales domestically was not able to return back to what he had grown accustomed to


If he was able to maintain his urban audience with Bad, he would not have felt the need the backing of Teddy Riley to try and regain it, even with that, Dangerous which I felt was an excellent album sold 6 million copies domestically during its initial run as Bad did

When Michael began working on his last studio album during the summer of 1999, it was being reported on urban radio, entertainment sources that Michael asked Quincy to collaborate together once again because he was trying to return back full circle to try and regain his American audience altogether

Ill respond asap

 

[mj_frenzy]

When he started working on his last studio album which became known as Invincible, initially he did not seek Rodney Jerkins to produce, he wanted Quincy Jones to do it as he was attempting to rekindle the maguc

This is the first time I have ever heard this.

 

[mjjmsc]

To create great music videos for his songs!

 

[HIStory]

The Girl Is Mine, Billie Jean, PYT, and especially Lady In My Life received enormous airplay on adult contemporary radio. Lady In My Life was the most requested love song on the Quiet Storn music segment on black radio at nighttime, it was often the last song to be played during that segment

You are mixing up things here. Just because something is played by adult contemporary radio it does not mean the subject matter, the lyrics and the theme of the song is "adult". There is nothing more adult in the lyrics of The Girl Is Mine or P.Y.T. than, say, Jam or In The Closet or Who Is It or Will You Be There or Scream or They Don't Care About Us or Stranger in Moscow etc. On the contrary. Radio usually plays radio friendly stuff, mellow, smooth melodies - that is very true of adult contemporary radio too. Thriller is more radio friendly than some of his later works and that is why adult contemporary radio rather plays a song like The Girl Is Mine or P.Y.T. than Jam or Scream. It has nothing to do with the theme of the song being more adult. Please show me how is a song like The Girl Is Mine or P.Y.T. more adult in theme than those later more socially conscious, darker songs?

This is the first time I have ever heard this.

You hear it the first time because that is only the personal opinion of Bringing Brighter Days. Nothing wrong with having an opinion, but if someone keeps representing personal opinion and uncorroborated gossip as fact then that can be misleading. That Michael dropped Quincy just because Bad did not sell 100 million copies is not a fact but the opinion of Bringing Brighter Days. There is also no credible source for the claim that Michael tried to work with Quincy for Invincible. It's a gossip that Bringing Brighter Days supposedly heard on some urban radio back in the day and he takes and represents it as fact because he is a huge fan of Quincy.

IMO, Thriller is a very adult album with complex, dark themes that Michael kept exploring in his subsequent albums.

Maybe because of its crazy popularity or the organic and sophisticated arrangements instead of more electronic, industrial music, people don't remember it that way.

But besides Billie Jean and unprotected sex and false paternity claims, you have WBSS with the people who abuse you and use you. The ones who chew you up and spit you out. You have songs about one night stands in HN, interracial relationships, gang and youth violence in the streets. You also have his most wildly adult and passionate seduction song with LIML.

Michael definitely came of age in that album.

Yes, there are already some adult themes on Thriller, especially compared to Off The Wall. But when comparing to his later work - Dangerous, HIStory, BOTDF especially - I don't know how anyone could factually claim Thriller has more adult themes than those.

 

[SoCav]

From what we've learned about the OTW, Thriller and Bad sessions it seems pretty clear that Michael was growing more and more independent as time went on, culminating in him working with 2 different teams during the Bad sessions and developing demos to a higher level of completion before Quincy even got to hear them than he did before. Working with a different producer does not seem like an illogical next step at all in that progression.

It wouldn't surprise me if Michael being disappointed with the Bad sales played some kinda factor as well, as he did set very high goals, but I find it hard to believe it was the only or major reason. In any case, we cannot know for sure.

 

[barbee0715]

Yes, there are already some adult themes on Thriller, especially compared to Off The Wall. But when comparing to his later work - Dangerous, HIStory, BOTDF especially - I don't know how anyone could factually claim Thriller has more adult themes than those.

I don't think Thriller had MORE adult themes, but I think it was the FIRST to get really noticed for it.
He obviously took it much further later.
Because it's so radio friendly and so musical and so danceable that I think it gets dismissed as a piece of fluff these days.

 

[mj_frenzy]

You hear it the first time because that is only the personal opinion of Bringing Brighter Days. Nothing wrong with having an opinion, but if someone keeps representing personal opinion and uncorroborated gossip as fact then that can be misleading. That Michael dropped Quincy just because Bad did not sell 100 million copies is not a fact but the opinion of Bringing Brighter Days. There is also no credible source for the claim that Michael tried to work with Quincy for Invincible. It's a gossip that Bringing Brighter Days supposedly heard on some urban radio back in the day and he takes and represents it as fact because he is a huge fan of Quincy.

Thank you.

It wouldn't surprise me if Michael being disappointed with the Bad sales played some kinda factor as well, as he did set very high goals, but I find it hard to believe it was the only or major reason. In any case, we cannot know for sure.

MJ was (almost) always disappointed with his albums sales (even with “Dangerous” was never satisfied because he was hoping to sell 100 million copies of that album)…

 

[barbee0715]

It sounds credible because its true. After Bad did not surpass Thriller, Michael switched producer and manager.

OK, but where is this info coming from??

When Michael began working on his last studio album during the summer of 1999, it was being reported on urban radio, entertainment sources that Michael asked Quincy to collaborate together once again because he was trying to return back full circle to try and regain his American audience altogether

OK, but where did urban radio get their info from?? Did they interview Quincy or Michael??

 

[HIStory]

I don't think Thriller had MORE adult themes, but I think it was the FIRST to get really noticed for it.
He obviously took it much further later.
Because it's so radio friendly and so musical and so danceable that I think it gets dismissed as a piece of fluff these days.

We do not disagree. I do not mean to dismiss it as fluff. Definitely not. I only dispute the point that it's the album with the most adult themes and subject matters.

 

[barbee0715]

From what we've learned about the OTW, Thriller and Bad sessions it seems pretty clear that Michael was growing more and more independent as time went on, culminating in him working with 2 different teams during the Bad sessions and developing demos to a higher level of completion before Quincy even got to hear them than he did before. Working with a different producer does not seem like an illogical next step at all in that progression.

It wouldn't surprise me if Michael being disappointed with the Bad sales played some kinda factor as well, as he did set very high goals, but I find it hard to believe it was the only or major reason. In any case, we cannot know for sure.

Good post and I agree with you on the independence. Reading Chris Currells articles yesterday made me think that he was more than ready to go on his own and pretty much took over the production of BAD anyway.

He probably didn't even need Teddy Riley but he may have felt a little insecure without someone from the current music scene.

 

[Xscape2041]

Michael

d Quincy Jones to do it as he was attempting to rekindle the maguc

I dont believe this. Mj himself was pushing Rodney to go more futuristic and not for a retro Sound.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

This is the first time I have ever heard this.

I'm sure it is

Depending on the point of reference determines which entertainment source was presented with the information

This info wasn't presented to commercial radio but urban radio as Michael attempted to gear Invincible to urban radio in an attempt to reingratiate himself with the audience he knew he lost by the end of the 80s

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

I dont believe this. Mj himself was pushing Rodney to go more futuristic and not for a retro Sound.

I never said he was trying to go retro, I said he initially called on Quincy to recreate the magic

After Quincy declined, Michael sought another producer and was introduced to Rodney Jerkins through a third party

 

[InvincibleMJ]

^ Source please?

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Going back to work with Q wouldn't have been challenging or experimental for Michael, that's why he rejected Pharrel songs because for him it was going back to what he already did in Off The Wall and those songs ended on JT's debut album.

In the meantime, I believe the man himself on being challenging and experimenting with new things. He said he would love to work with him but he didn't seem convinced, he was rather being polite at 4:00.

You seem to have just opinions rather than facts, Brighter Days. If you don't have a source, I don't believe a word you told.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Going back to work with Q wouldn't have been challenging or experimental for Michael, that's why he rejected Pharrel songs because for him it was going back to what he already did in Off The Wall and those songs ended on JT's debut album.

In the meantime, I believe the man himself on being challenging and experimenting with new things. He said he would love to work with him but he didn't seem convinced, he was rather being polite at 4:00.

You seem to have just opinions rather than facts, Brighter Days. If you don't have a source, I don't believe a word you told.

If that was really the case, Michael would have stopped working with Quincy after Off The Wall, if it was really about trying new things, their collaboration would have ended in 1981, instead they worked on three straight albums over a 10 year period and created the greatest R&B album of all time, the greatest selling album of all time, and the most anticipated follow up of all time, not counting the other projects they worked on together

When he saw that Bad was not going to outsell Thriller, he not only switched producers but switched managers also, neither move was a coincidence

 

[HIStory]

^ Source please?

I am sure if Michael really had tried to work wit Quincy for Invincible we would already have information and knowledge about it from better sources than some hearsay, gossip or speculation on some "urban radio" that no one else heard other than this fan who happens to be very biased for Quincy.

If that was really the case, Michael would have stopped working with Quincy after Off The Wall, if it was really about trying new things, their collaboration would have ended in 1981,

And the same can be said about it if it was just about sales and success. As you know Michael was very disappointed with the way OTW was received by the industry so if failing to achieve the level of success that Michael anticipated for the album was the reason for him to leave Quincy then he would have left him after OTW.

Please realize that your opinion and speculations are just that, not facts. We have no way of knowing all the reasons why Michael left Quincy. I very much doubt it was just because Bad did not sell 100 million copies but in any case you cannot make definite statements about that as if you were in Michael's head knowing all his reasons.

There were already many disagreements in the studio between MJ and Quincy during the making of Bad (the whole Team A, Team B thing) and to me it seems that Michael started to feel a bit limited and restriced by Quincy at the time and that could have been among his reasons just as much as failing to sell 100 million copies of Bad. And I think he really needed that move to develope as an artist.

And you know, Michael was a very non-confrontational guy, so whatever problems (personal or professional) he might have had with Quincy at the time he would never tell that publicly. So that is another reason why we probably will never know all his reasons for leaving Quincy.

 

[mj_frenzy]

I'm sure it is

Depending on the point of reference determines which entertainment source was presented with the information

This info wasn't presented to commercial radio but urban radio as Michael attempted to gear Invincible to urban radio in an attempt to reingratiate himself with the audience he knew he lost by the end of the 80s

No, it is because I never cared about what people (radio producers, etc.) have said on the air all those years…

I never said he was trying to go retro, I said he initially called on Quincy to recreate the magic

After Quincy declined, Michael sought another producer and was introduced to Rodney Jerkins through a third party

First & foremost, MJ wanted to create new fans, & focused mainly on people who were not even born in the “Thriller” or “Bad” era (that’s why, he tried to create a totally modern sound, he adopted slang language in his lyrics, etc.).

Quincy Jones was not MJ’s first choice (I doubt if he was a choice for that album in general). It really sounds too off the point…

Also, Rodney Jerkins had already been introduced (by Teddy Riley) to MJ years before that supposed “declination”…