MJ’s smartest move

[Bringing Brighter Days]

No, it is because I never cared about what people (radio producers, etc.) have said on the air all those years…



First & foremost, MJ wanted to create new fans, & focused mainly on people who were not even born in the “Thriller” or “Bad” era (that’s why, he tried to create a totally modern sound, he adopted slang language in his lyrics, etc.).

Quincy Jones was not MJ’s first choice (I doubt if he was a choice for that album in general). It really sounds too off the point…

Also, Rodney Jerkins had already been introduced (by Teddy Riley) to MJ years before that supposed “declination”…

"He wanted to create new fans"

This is the crux of the entire situation and this focus of his is what caused so much flack over the years

This is far beyond any inclination about a supposed advocation of Quincy Jones

Ill respond back in full detail as soon as I get the chance to

 

[Xscape2041]

I never said he was trying to go retro, I said he initially called on Quincy to recreate the magic

After Quincy declined, Michael sought another producer and was introduced to Rodney Jerkins through a third party

I know you didn't say that. I just wanted to say, I doubt Michael called Quincy in the first place, because if he wanted to go for that futuristic sound, Quincy wouldn't have been his choice imo.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

I am sure if Michael really had tried to work wit Quincy for Invincible we would already have information and knowledge about it from better sources than some hearsay, gossip or speculation on some "urban radio" that no one else heard other than this fan who happens to be very biased for Quincy.

Oh, I'm sure too, but since it's being mentioned repetitively I think asking for the source is a legitimate request because I've never heard of it.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

No, it is because I never cared about what people (radio producers, etc.) have said on the air all those years…



First & foremost, MJ wanted to create new fans, & focused mainly on people who were not even born in the “Thriller” or “Bad” era (that’s why, he tried to create a totally modern sound, he adopted slang language in his lyrics, etc.).

Quincy Jones was not MJ’s first choice (I doubt if he was a choice for that album in general). It really sounds too off the point…

Also, Rodney Jerkins had already been introduced (by Teddy Riley) to MJ years before that supposed “declination”…

"First & Foremost, MJ wanted to create new fans"....

this is the crux of the whole situation that goes deeper than any producer he may have chose to work with after Quincy Jones

I never had a problem when Michael started working with other producers because he and Quincy had nothing else to prove together, they had made musical history, crafting the greatest R&B/soul album of all time, the greatest selling album of all time, and the most anticipated follow up of all time

it's not the fact that he did, it's why he did

as u just mentioned, he focused on and wanted to create a new fan following and did it in a way that undermined the support his original following provided for him to achieve what he did globally.....the fans from 1969-1984 picked up on that ambition and the focus of what MJ was looking to establish and that focus resulted in him losing half his fanbase with Bad

and for the remainder of his career from the time the Dangerous Album was released, Michael tried everything possible to regain the audience he lost.....featuring other premier stars/celebrities/athletes in his videos, working with young contemporary producers to shape his musical presentation: Teddy Riley, Dallas Austin, R. Kelly, Rodney Jerkins, conducting live prime time interviews with an attempt to boost record sales, Oprah Winfrey and Diane Sawyer...he never had to take any of those measures during the beginning of his adult solo career.....

what was lost through all of his is that Michael did make accomplished music post Thriller but the fact that he had spent his career beyond that point trying to create a new fanbase for himself undermined those efforts

instead of making that a sole focus, he should have let things evolve naturally and all of his subsequent albums after Thriller would have sold more than they actually did, he would have maintained the support of his original following while garnering a new generation of musical followers..he would have had the best of both worlds....his career pinnacle would have occurred beyond Thriller

and after History, u knew he would eventually try to return back to his "roots" after pop radio started to exclude him when he started working on what turned out to be his last studio album Invincible as his released singles "You Rock My World" and "Butterflies" were R&B oriented, and the album was promoted by urban radio first and foremost....


as far as his smartest move, I would say that he dedicated himself to his craft from the time he was a child prodigy and that he shared his talent with the world in fullness

 

[HIStory]

^ You say he should not have focused on sales - but you yourself very much do that by measuring his album's worths by their sales numbers. So which one is it?

I think it's simply unrealistic to expect that he would or should have kept selling like Thriller. That was a once in a lifetime - or rather once in history - event whether Michael himself accepted that or not. I really think it was a mistake from him to mention his sales expectations publicly because now even some of his fans keep suggesting that's all he cared about and that is just not true in my opinion.

And why he lost a part of his urban following after Thriller is a lot more complicated than the music and we have already discussed this in another thread. When Bad came out he was very harshly attacked by the media, but those attacks were not really focused on the music but on how he looked. That's when people started to think he was trying to be white and that is more the reason for losing some of his urban following in the US than anything else. And then there is this whole thing with the media playing "build you up, tear you down". After Thriller the "tear you down" phase was on.

and for the remainder of his career from the time the Dangerous Album was released, Michael tried everything possible to regain the audience he lost.....featuring other premier stars/celebrities/athletes in his videos, working with young contemporary producers to shape his musical presentation: Teddy Riley, Dallas Austin, R. Kelly, Rodney Jerkins, conducting

And was Quincy doing the same by featuring rap music and contemporary rap stars on his albums and taking in New Jack Swing while producing young stars like Tevin Campbell and others? This is the kind of music Quincy did in 1991:

Music always keeps evolving and it's natural that in 1991 Michael was not doing disco or post-disco music any more, no matter how much fun Off The Wall or Thriller was. And it's not like Michael collaborating with others started with Dangerous. He collaborated with Paul McCartney on Thriller precisely to get white adult contemporary radio play him. Or he had the most popular guitar player at the time Eddie Van Halen play in Beat It. Those moves are not any less calculated than anything he did on Dangerous.

live prime time interviews with an attempt to boost record sales, Oprah Winfrey and Diane Sawyer...he never had to take any of those measures during the beginning of his adult solo career.....

I don't think he "had to" do it in the 90s either. Actually I think these harmed him more than helped him on the long run. In the 80s the game was different - then it was "mysterious Michael". And the Elephant Man and the hyperbaric chamber. If you read his so called manifesto - that was written in 1979 way before Thriller or Bad or leaving Quincy. And that is already a draft of what he will do PR-wise to make himself mysterious. Those are PR tools as well. And those were used at the hight of his success. It's not like he did not do PR stunts in the 80s.

instead of making that a sole focus, he should have let things evolve naturally and all of his subsequent albums after Thriller would have sold more than they actually did, he would have maintained the support of his original following while garnering a new generation of musical followers..he would have had the best of both worlds....his career pinnacle would have occurred beyond Thriller

I do not think anything he could do to stop his sales from declining, simply because that's just the natural order of things. After Thriller the only way was down in terms of sales. Then there was the controversy around his looks and then the allegations. Ignoring all these factors affecting his sales will lead you to wrong conclusions IMO.

And how much those hip collaborators defined his music? Dallas Austin or R. Kelly weren't the main features of HIStory. They do not define that album. Teddy Riley was more a feature on the first half of Dangerous, but that was it basically - and like I said Quincy too did New Jack Swing at the time. Everyone in urban music did, so that choice was not unique to Michael. Had he stayed with Quincy they would have still probably done some sort of NJS featuring rap and rap stars and Slash and all. After all that type of thing did was done both on Thriller and Bad as well (Van Halen, Steve Stevens etc.).

The main task of HIStory was not to be radio friendly but to tell "his story". I am pretty sure Michael could have opted to do some catchy, shallow, meaningless pop music and possibly that would have sold more, but that's not what he wanted at the time, but to put his feelings in his music. And I think on Dangerous too. He noticably turned darker already on Dangerous than he was before. And BTW, you still have not answered the question how are the themes and subject matters on Thriller more adult than on Dangerous or HIStory? Because that is the whole point from where this discussion started.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

^ You say he should not have focused on sales - but you yourself very much do that by measuring his album's worths by their sales numbers. So which one is it?

I think it's simply unrealistic to expect that he would or should have kept selling like Thriller. That was a once in a lifetime - or rather once in history - event whether Michael himself accepted that or not. I really think it was a mistake from him to mention his sales expectations publicly because now even some of his fans keep suggesting that's all he cared about and that is just not true in my opinion.

And why he lost a part of his urban following after Thriller is a lot more complicated than the music and we have already discussed this in another thread. When Bad came out he was very harshly attacked by the media, but those attacks were not really focused on the music but on how he looked. That's when people started to think he was trying to be white and that is more the reason for losing some of his urban following in the US than anything else. And then there is this whole thing with the media playing "build you up, tear you down". After Thriller the "tear you down" phase was on.



And was Quincy doing the same by featuring rap music and contemporary rap stars on his albums and taking in New Jack Swing while producing young stars like Tevin Campbell and others? This is the kind of music Quincy did in 1991:

Music always keeps evolving and it's natural that in 1991 Michael was not doing disco or post-disco music any more, no matter how much fun Off The Wall or Thriller was. And it's not like Michael collaborating with others started with Dangerous. He collaborated with Paul McCartney on Thriller precisely to get white adult contemporary radio play him. Or he had the most popular guitar player at the time Eddie Van Halen play in Beat It. Those moves are not any less calculated than anything he did on Dangerous.



I don't think he "had to" do it in the 90s either. Actually I think these harmed him more than helped him on the long run. In the 80s the game was different - then it was "mysterious Michael". And the Elephant Man and the hyperbaric chamber. If you read his so called manifesto - that was written in 1979 way before Thriller or Bad or leaving Quincy. And that is already a draft of what he will do PR-wise to make himself mysterious. Those are PR tools as well. And those were used at the hight of his success. It's not like he did not do PR stunts in the 80s.



I do not think anything he could do to stop his sales from declining, simply because that's just the natural order of things. After Thriller the only way was down in terms of sales. Then there was the controversy around his looks and then the allegations. Ignoring all these factors affecting his sales will lead you to wrong conclusions IMO.

And how much those hip collaborators defined his music? Dallas Austin or R. Kelly weren't the main features of HIStory. They do not define that album. Teddy Riley was more a feature on the first half of Dangerous, but that was it basically - and like I said Quincy too did New Jack Swing at the time. Everyone in urban music did, so that choice was not unique to Michael. Had he stayed with Quincy they would have still probably done some sort of NJS featuring rap and rap stars and Slash and all. After all that type of thing did was done both on Thriller and Bad as well (Van Halen, Steve Stevens etc.).

The main task of HIStory was not to be radio friendly but to tell "his story". I am pretty sure Michael could have opted to do some catchy, shallow, meaningless pop music and possibly that would have sold more, but that's not what he wanted at the time, but to put his feelings in his music. And I think on Dangerous too. He noticably turned darker already on Dangerous than he was before. And BTW, you still have not answered the question how are the themes and subject matters on Thriller more adult than on Dangerous or HIStory? Because that is the whole point from where this discussion started.

Two brief points and Ill respond to this asap


If Michael had did things differently after Thriller, the media would have been able to get to him. It never would have happened. The media never built him up because commercial media did not latch onto him until he performed Billie Jean on Motown 25, after all these years, the narrative is that he started wearing the glove on Motown 25 when in actuality, he started wearing the single glove 4 years prior

Of the past quarter century, the technology has evolved but not the music. All that has happened is that themes and concepts of the past were recycled, sampled, or interpolated and presented to a larger audience as authentic when it really wasn't. That's why music is so stagnant today

 

[HIStory]

Two brief points and Ill respond to this asap


If Michael had did things differently after Thriller, the media would have been able to get to him. It never would have happened. The media never built him up because commercial media did not latch onto him until he performed Billie Jean on Motown 25, after all these years, the narrative is that he started wearing the glove on Motown 25 when in actuality, he started wearing the single glove 4 years prior

What does his glove have to do with anything?

Of the past quarter century, the technology has evolved but not the music. All that has happened is that themes and concepts of the past were recycled, sampled, or interpolated and presented to a larger audience as authentic when it really wasn't. That's why music is so stagnant today

Well, if you are of the opinion that music is always just eight notes in different variations since humans were able to do those eight notes then yes, music never evolves. Apart from that however, NJS obviously is a different sound than, say, disco or rock and roll. Whatever you want to call those differences in music is just semantics that I am not interested in discussing here because with that you are deflecting the actual topic to side issues again.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Two brief points and Ill respond to this asap


If Michael had did things differently after Thriller, the media would have been able to get to him. It never would have happened. The media never built him up because commercial media did not latch onto him until he performed Billie Jean on Motown 25, after all these years, the narrative is that he started wearing the glove on Motown 25 when in actuality, he started wearing the single glove 4 years prior


Of the past quarter century, the technology has evolved but not the music. All that has happened is that themes and concepts of the past were recycled, sampled, or interpolated and presented to a larger audience as authentic when it really wasn't. That's why music is so stagnant today

The press manipulation is what led to the shift on how the media portrayed him as he started planting those stories about the h chamber and elephant man's bones and telling publications such as the People magazine to refer to him as weird. It did not work and an artist of his stature never needed to go that route. That's when the media conflict exascerbated to the point of no return


The music industry is about finished. The rehashing of former themes is running its course. A Bruno Mars is viewed as a sort of musical vanguard when the reality is his latest hit single robs the music if at the least five great R&B acts of the past


This is why New Jack Swing rose to the forefront of the R&B as it served as a last bastion of sorts to preserve black authenticity before it broke off into fragments and gave way before one final brief resurgence on 2001 before falling off for good


When Quincy featured those artists on his music and videos, it was for a different purpose, it was to serve as a springboard to establish their careers or reastablish them and he featured young artists and legendary artists of the past. And even then by the beginning of the 90s, he was already forewarning how the quality of music was declining



In regards to the subject matter with Thriller, he featured something that all age groups could enjoy, he provided the full range which I would consider an artist's dream then, music that connected to people from 8 to 80, WBSS, Baby Be Mine, Billie Jean, Human Nature, PYT, Lady in My Life all carrt adult themes throughout but performed in such a manner that kids could interpret. The title track to this very day is played,in night clubs every year on Halloween


Beat it video had grown men who represented real street gangs in L.A., they were not dancers, thats how much pull MJ had then and the message was central promoting the idea we dont have to fight each other to solve our problems. It didnt get any better than that. He was literally,becoming the voice of an entire generation


Millions were taking heed to his message. It was working

 

[HIStory]

The press manipulation is what led to the shift on how the media portrayed him as he started planting those stories about the h chamber and elephant man's bones and telling publications such as the People magazine to refer to him as weird. It did not work and an artist of his stature never needed to go that route. That's when the media conflict exascerbated to the point of no return

The music industry is about finished. The rehashing of former themes is running its course. A Bruno Mars is viewed as a sort of musical vanguard when the reality is his latest hit single robs the music if at the least five great R&B acts of the past


This is why New Jack Swing rose to the forefront of the R&B as it served as a last bastion of sorts to preserve black authenticity before it broke off into fragments and gave way before one final brief resurgence on 2001 before falling off for good


When Quincy featured those artists on his music and videos, it was for a different purpose, it was to serve as a springboard to establish their careers or reastablish them and he featured young artists and legendary artists of the past. And even then by the beginning of the 90s, he was already forewarning how the quality of music was declining

Non of this addresses the points I raised. The state of the music of today, Bruno Mars etc. have nothing to do with our discussion. Also whether you blame Michael for the PR-backlash of the late 80s is besides the point of our discussion. The point I made was that the music wasn't necessarily the thing why his urban audience declined in the US. There are many other factors that you have to consider.

You again assume things about why Quincy did that kind of music and then assume things about why Michael did that. In your bias for Quincy you assume that his use of that kind of music had nothing to do with commercialism or trying to fit in with current trends, but in Michael's case his use of the same type of music is all about commercialism and an attempt to try to fit in with hip trends. I will call this double standards on your part.

BTW, I think Michael used NJS in a lot more creative way than Quincy did. Dangerous >>>>> anything Quincy did at the time.

And if Quincy does not try to follow hip trends then how on Earth did this horrible thing happen on his album?

https://open.spotify.com/track/0jiCWUiDknlyF5kmjScE1B

In regards to the subject matter with Thriller, he featured something that all age groups could enjoy, he provided the full range which I would consider an artist's dream then, music that connected to people from 8 to 80, WBSS, Baby Be Mine, Billie Jean, Human Nature, PYT, Lady in My Life all carrt adult themes throughout but performed in such a manner that kids could interpret. The title track to this very day is played,in night clubs every year on Halloween

Beat it video had grown men who represented real street gangs in L.A., they were not dancers, thats how much pull MJ had then and the message was central promoting the idea we dont have to fight each other to solve our problems. It didnt get any better than that. He was literally,becoming the voice of an entire generation

Millions were taking heed to his message. It was working

Again, this does not answer what my question actually was.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Non of this addresses the points I raised. The state of the music of today, Bruno Mars etc. have nothing to do with our discussion. Also whether you blame Michael for the PR-backlash of the late 80s is besides the point of our discussion. The point I made was that the music wasn't necessarily the thing why his urban audience declined in the US. There are many other factors that you have to consider.

You again assume things about why Quincy did that kind of music and then assume things about why Michael did that. In your bias for Quincy you assume that his use of that kind of music had nothing to do with commercialism or trying to fit in with current trends, but in Michael's case his use of the same type of music is all about commercialism and an attempt to try to fit in with hip trends. I will call this double standards on your part.

BTW, I think Michael used NJS in a lot more creative way than Quincy did. Dangerous >>>>> anything Quincy did at the time.

And if Quincy does not try to follow hip trends then how on Earth did this horrible thing happen on his album?

https://open.spotify.com/track/0jiCWUiDknlyF5kmjScE1B




Again, this does not answer what my question actually was.

The musical message, the universal message that he presented to the world from day one was never the issue

My previous post mentioned Thriller and the adult themes featured on many of his songs

All those songs that he featured on the History album that spoke to his anger of what he experienced two years prior, he never would have had to make those songs, even if they were good, if his career had not deviated from what made him truly successful

He never would have had to make the songs Scream, TDRCAU, This Time Around, Money, Tabloid Junkie, because the anger that he displayed distracted from the great message that was being embraced just ten years prior

 

[InvincibleMJ]

^ Dangerous is very much of a socially conscious album and he wasn't all that angry in 1991, was he? I don't see why the reason of why he wrote these songs is relevant and how it makes your point about adult theme stronger. He would have never had to make a song like Billie Jean if he didn't experience groupies, he would have never had to had a song like Leave Me Alone if the tabloid hadn't chased him.

 

[HIStory]

The musical message, the universal message that he presented to the world from day one was never the issue

My previous post mentioned Thriller and the adult themes featured on many of his songs

All those songs that he featured on the History album that spoke to his anger of what he experienced two years prior, he never would have had to make those songs, even if they were good, if his career had not deviated from what made him truly successful

He never would have had to make the songs Scream, TDRCAU, This Time Around, Money, Tabloid Junkie, because the anger that he displayed distracted from the great message that was being embraced just ten years prior

You keep ignoring all other factors of Michael's life and relate everything to his decline in success. So the allegations never happened? Because you know well that's what much of the HIStory album addresses. And TDCAU is one of his most popular songs today, go to Spotify or YouTube and see. It's being constantly used at protests, so sorry I just cannot see it as some "distraction from the great message" as you put it. It IS a great message! It's being widely used as a protest anthem as we speak!

All those songs that he featured on the History album that spoke to his anger of what he experienced two years prior, he never would have had to make those songs, even if they were good, if his career had not deviated from what made him truly successful

What do you mean by this? Had his success not declined he would have never been accused of child molestation? Because it's the allegations why the HIStory album happened, not decline in success.

The question was how does Thriller have more adult themes and subject matters than Dangerous or HIStory and you still did not really answer that. You go on about Thriller's popularity and mass appeal. That does not answer the question. Thriller's only socially conscious songs are Beat It and WBSS. Dangerous' socially conscious songs: Jam, WYWTOM, Heal The World, Black or White, Keep the Faith. I'd also say that Dangerous is more adult and more genuine in expressing relationships, romance and sex. It is also more adult in expressing inner turmoil (Will You Be There, Who Is It). Thriller is fun, but I think we learn more about Michael as a person from Dangerous than from Thriller. Same with HIStory.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

You keep ignoring all other factors of Michael's life and relate everything to his decline in success. So the allegations never happened? Because you know well that's what much of the HIStory album addresses. And TDCAU is one of his most popular songs today, go to Spotify or YouTube and see. It's being constantly used at protests, so sorry I just cannot see it as some "distraction from the great message" as you put it. It IS a great message! It's being widely used as a protest anthem as we speak!



What do you mean by this? Had his success not declined he would have never been accused of child molestation? Because it's the allegations why the HIStory album happened, not decline in success.

The question was how does Thriller have more adult themes and subject matters than Dangerous or HIStory and you still did not really answer that. You go on about Thriller's popularity and mass appeal. That does not answer the question. Thriller's only socially conscious songs are Beat It and WBSS. Dangerous' socially conscious songs: Jam, WYWTOM, Heal The World, Black or White, Keep the Faith. I'd also say that Dangerous is more adult and more genuine in expressing relationships, romance and sex. It is also more adult in expressing inner turmoil (Will You Be There, Who Is It). Thriller is fun, but I think we learn more about Michael as a person from Dangerous than from Thriller. Same with HIStory.

Anyone can research this for themselves


Michael lost appoximately 22 million record buyers within a span of two years from thr time of Bad's release until the conclusion of the Bad Tour that ended in Los Angeles in early 1989, really it was within 18 months

That is not an accident or some byproduct of an unfortunate luck of the draw

All this happened 4 years before the allegations of 93

Even with Dangerous, which I felt was an excellent album and should have received more critical acclaim than it did, by the Spring of 92, fell out of the Billboard top 100 some 5-6 months after its release. I loved Will You Be There as that is my favorite song he did since the 90s

After that, this is when by years end, he began scheduling more public appearances, scheduled the superbowl halftime show which I loved the heal the world performance, and scheduling that interview with Oprah, all thosr moves were designed to boost domestic sales of Dangerous because he knew he lost the audience from years before, an audience who would have been there all along if things would have been different

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

If you're not going to answer what is asked, stop derailing the thread, seriously stop! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but your opinion are not based facts, we get for you Quincy Jones is the best producer Michael worked with and at first sight achieved his major success, we get it but even music journalist/critics who have minded to know about his later work would agree with many of us he achieved his artistic and creative peak with the albums from the 90s.

To me, Michael is my favorite producer because he showed he had independence of his own and didn't need guidance anymore to create masterpieces and achieve massive success in places where people haven't even heard of the Thriller album. Teddy Riley collaborated in Dangerous yes but if you see Teddy's solo world, you'd realized who was the mastermind behind of the innovation and album quality.

 

[mj_frenzy]

And you know, Michael was a very non-confrontational guy, so whatever problems (personal or professional) he might have had with Quincy at the time he would never tell that publicly. So that is another reason why we probably will never know all his reasons for leaving Quincy.

If he revealed the problems in public it would have been too unethical…

 

[HIStory]

Anyone can research this for themselves


Michael lost appoximately 22 million record buyers within a span of two years from thr time of Bad's release until the conclusion of the Bad Tour that ended in Los Angeles in early 1989, really it was within 18 months

That is not an accident or some byproduct of an unfortunate luck of the draw

All this happened 4 years before the allegations of 93

Even with Dangerous, which I felt was an excellent album and should have received more critical acclaim than it did, by the Spring of 92, fell out of the Billboard top 100 some 5-6 months after its release. I loved Will You Be There as that is my favorite song he did since the 90s

After that, this is when by years end, he began scheduling more public appearances, scheduled the superbowl halftime show which I loved the heal the world performance, and scheduling that interview with Oprah, all thosr moves were designed to boost domestic sales of Dangerous because he knew he lost the audience from years before, an audience who would have been there all along if things would have been different

This is still not an answer to the question.

 

[analogue]

Deleted

 

[HIStory]

I'd also say that Michael was the real mastermind behind all of his albums with Quincy. Because if Quincy was the real mastermind (Like some people like to say) then why couldn't he achieve similar success with any other artist?

I think both Michael and Quincy had their strengths. I think Quincy was a great musical professional, with fine production skills. I generally like his production style and his jazz sensibilities. Another one of Quincy's strengths was to organize all that, to bring in the best instrumentalists etc. And I think he was also needed to bring Michael out of his shell as a songwriter and gain confidence in his skills in that area.

But while Quincy is one of the best craftsmen in the music industry he is not a profilic songwriter. Sure he did some songwriting during his career, but most of the time he did covers or got songwriters to write him the music that he then could produce. That's so even on his own albums. And after Michael moved on he could still write new songs for his new albums, while most of what Quincy did was rehashing old material or got Rod Temperton or others to write him some new ones.

I think they complemented each other well while working together: Michael delivered the songs and Quincy produced them.

 

[mj_frenzy]

"First & Foremost, MJ wanted to create new fans"....

this is the crux of the whole situation that goes deeper than any producer he may have chose to work with after Quincy Jones

I never had a problem when Michael started working with other producers because he and Quincy had nothing else to prove together, they had made musical history, crafting the greatest R&B/soul album of all time, the greatest selling album of all time, and the most anticipated follow up of all time

it's not the fact that he did, it's why he did

as u just mentioned, he focused on and wanted to create a new fan following and did it in a way that undermined the support his original following provided for him to achieve what he did globally.....the fans from 1969-1984 picked up on that ambition and the focus of what MJ was looking to establish and that focus resulted in him losing half his fanbase with Bad

and for the remainder of his career from the time the Dangerous Album was released, Michael tried everything possible to regain the audience he lost.....featuring other premier stars/celebrities/athletes in his videos, working with young contemporary producers to shape his musical presentation: Teddy Riley, Dallas Austin, R. Kelly, Rodney Jerkins, conducting live prime time interviews with an attempt to boost record sales, Oprah Winfrey and Diane Sawyer...he never had to take any of those measures during the beginning of his adult solo career.....

what was lost through all of his is that Michael did make accomplished music post Thriller but the fact that he had spent his career beyond that point trying to create a new fanbase for himself undermined those efforts

instead of making that a sole focus, he should have let things evolve naturally and all of his subsequent albums after Thriller would have sold more than they actually did, he would have maintained the support of his original following while garnering a new generation of musical followers..he would have had the best of both worlds....his career pinnacle would have occurred beyond Thriller

and after History, u knew he would eventually try to return back to his "roots" after pop radio started to exclude him when he started working on what turned out to be his last studio album Invincible as his released singles "You Rock My World" and "Butterflies" were R&B oriented, and the album was promoted by urban radio first and foremost....


as far as his smartest move, I would say that he dedicated himself to his craft from the time he was a child prodigy and that he shared his talent with the world in fullness

Or, just, he wanted to become even bigger than before…

I honestly do not see something blamable when an artist tries to expand his career (create new fans, etc.).

MJ, instead of being inactive, made a lot of strategic moves (after “Thriller” era) & not necessarily at the expense of his prior achievements.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

I can't believe MJ's nature to always aim for better and bigger is used against him :smilerolleyes:. Being ambitious does not mean you're only motivated by numbers.

 

[MAQ]

He did succeed though, didn't he? I mean, Dangerous was as commercially successful as Bad (it might have outsold Bad in fact) and became the best selling new jack swing album. Black or White became the most watched music video of all time with an estimated 500 million viewers and the single stayed at the top of Billboard Top 100 for 6 or 7 weeks. HIStory sold about 18 - 20 million albums (36 - 40 million units) and became the best selling double album. Scream debuted at #5 and You Are Not Alone at #1, both established records. Blood on the Dance Floor sold about 6 million records and became the best selling remix album. Dangerous is also the best selling album by a male artist in the 1990s. Even Invincible sold 5 million copies worldwide in 5 weeks, given the lack of promotion, and has sold around 9 - 10 million albums. He sold out the 2 MSG concerts in 5 hours. He sold out 50 shows in the O2 arena in 5-6 hours! 1 million tickets in 5-6 hours!

These all are mammoth achievements, I don't know how anyone can say that Michael lost most of his fans. His fans were in hiding though, I guess.

 

[HIStory]

Since this is about mainly US fans, let me post the sales numbers of MJ's adult solo albums in the US:

Off The Wall - 8 million
Thriller - 29 million
Bad - 9 million
Dangerous - 7 million
HIStory - 3.5 million (because it's a double album it is certified 7x Platinum)
Invincible - 2 million.

Now, the big "anomaly" is Thriller with it's crazy amount. Otherwise the sales numbers for Michael have been fairly consistently around the 7-9 million range in the US. Yes, there is a decline for HIStory and Invincible, but those were after the allegations. Plus HIStory was a double album (expensive) and it's not radio friendly.

Of course, compared to Thriller everything will look like a "flop". But let's compare those sales to other big stars.

Madonna:

Madonna - 5 million
Like a Virgin - 10 million (her biggest selling studio album!)
True Blue - 7 million
Like a Prayer - 4 million
Erotica - 2 million
Bedtime Stories - 3 million
Ray of Light - 4 million
Music - 3 million
American Life - 1 million
Confessions on a Dance Floor - 1 million
Hard Candy - 0.5 million
MDNA - 0.5 million
Rebel Heart - less than 0.5 million

Prince (only counting his biggest sellers):

1999 - 4 million
Purple Rain - 13 million (his biggest selling studio album)
Around the World in a Day - 3 million
Sign o' the Times - 1 million
Batman - 2 million
Diamonds and Pearls - 2 million
Emancipation - 2 million
Musicology - 2 million

Just taking randomly some fairly popular and long standing band - say, U2 (only counting their biggest sellers):

War - 4 million
The Unforgettable Fire - 3 million
The Joshua Tree - 10 million (their biggest seller)
Rattle and Hum - 5 million
Actung Baby - 8 million
Zooropa - 2 million
Pop - 1 million
All That You Can't Leave Behind - 4 million
How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb - 3 million
No Line on the Horizon - 1 million


So the point is, that compared to that Michael actually did quite well in terms of consistency of sales. Yes, he did not get anywhere near Thriller with his other albums, but selling three other albums in the range of 7-9 million is still a very successful and consistent run, even if we ignore Thriller for a moment. Nothing to be ashamed of and there is no reason to portray that as some sort of failure when other stars (and big ones such as the above ones) have their most successful albums around that range in sales numbers!

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Since this is about mainly US fans, let me post the sales numbers of MJ's adult solo albums in the US:

Off The Wall - 8 million
Thriller - 29 million
Bad - 9 million
Dangerous - 7 million
HIStory - 3.5 million (because it's a double album it is certified 7x Platinum)
Invincible - 2 million.

Now, the big "anomaly" is Thriller with it's crazy amount. Otherwise the sales numbers for Michael have been fairly consistently around the 7-9 million range in the US. Yes, there is a decline for HIStory and Invincible, but those were after the allegations. Plus HIStory was a double album (expensive) and it's not radio friendly.

Of course, compared to Thriller everything will look like a "flop". But let's compare those sales to other big stars.

Madonna:

Madonna - 5 million
Like a Virgin - 10 million (her biggest selling studio album!)
True Blue - 7 million
Like a Prayer - 4 million
Erotica - 2 million
Bedtime Stories - 3 million
Ray of Light - 4 million
Music - 3 million
American Life - 1 million
Confessions on a Dance Floor - 1 million
Hard Candy - 0.5 million
MDNA - 0.5 million
Rebel Heart - less than 0.5 million

Prince (only counting his biggest sellers):

1999 - 4 million
Purple Rain - 13 million (his biggest selling studio album)
Around the World in a Day - 3 million
Sign o' the Times - 1 million
Batman - 2 million
Diamonds and Pearls - 2 million
Emancipation - 2 million
Musicology - 2 million

Just taking randomly some fairly popular and long standing band - say, U2 (only counting their biggest sellers):

War - 4 million
The Unforgettable Fire - 3 million
The Joshua Tree - 10 million (their biggest seller)
Rattle and Hum - 5 million
Actung Baby - 8 million
Zooropa - 2 million
Pop - 1 million
All That You Can't Leave Behind - 4 million
How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb - 3 million
No Line on the Horizon - 1 million


So the point is, that compared to that Michael actually did quite well in terms of consistency of sales. Yes, he did not get anywhere near Thriller with his other albums, but selling three other albums in the range of 7-9 million is still a very successful and consistent run, even if we ignore Thriller for a moment. Nothing to be ashamed of and there is no reason to portray that as some sort of failure when other stars (and big ones such as the above ones) have their most successful albums around that range in sales numbers!

Michael viewed those sales as a failure and we're talking about the leading recording artist in the field

And the trajectory of those sales by those other artists shows that as pop music became more exclusive and the main focus for success, it overwhelmed the ability or willingness to stay the course as all these artists were drawn from their center, their image became more commercial and the rapport with the foundational support was undermind

 

[MAQ]

Michael viewed those sales as a failure and we're talking about the leading recording artist in the field

And the trajectory of those sales by those other artists shows that as pop music became more exclusive and the main focus for success, it overwhelmed the ability or willingness to stay the course as all these artists were drawn from their center, their image became more commercial and the rapport with the foundational support was undermind

I don't think Michael viewed them as failures, rather his hell bound critics viewed them as failures.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

If success in the music industry were seen only by sale numbers, all the acts would be seen as "utter failures" compared to the standards existed before piracy took over. The last performer who achieved selling 20 million copies worldwide was Adele 4 years ago. Taking into account how expensive HIStory was/is for being a double record, currently it has sold between 35-40 million copies worldwide.

You seem to make Michael look like a person only driven by sales numbers to succeed. Who else paralyzed the world for short film premieres? Who else has the most watched tv interview? Who else is closed to have the amount of records broken? Michael, just Michael! Even The Guinness World Records certified him as the most successful solo artist of all the time and it wasn't just because of Thriller.

 

[analogue]

One of his smartest moves was having his own camera crew recording the Martin Bashir interview. Michael wasn't as naive as some people think

 

[Psychoniff]

This going to hurt some feeling but it has to be said with honesty. MJ wasn't the savviest when it came to associations a lot of the time, both business but towards his personal life. He also wasn't a 'businessman' per se. Yes, he had great instinct, resourcefulness, initiative and the ability to think on his feet. But being a business requires more that just being savvy, who have to a great with your money and great man manager. He over spend on many things blindly (Invincible album), with which he felt he no limits financially. You could try to counteract it by saying it was 'yes men' but that's difference between an actually businessmen like Bill Gates and Richard Branson vs MJ who was resourceful person, but not the greatest business man. Brad S. said the same thing in a recent podcast. So overall I think his poor decisions affected things badly.

 

[MAQ]

This going to hurt some feeling but it has to be said with honesty. MJ was a the savviest when it came to associations a lot of the time, both business but towards his personal life. He also wasn't a 'businessman' per se. Yes, he had great instinct, resourcefulness, initiative and the ability to think on his feet. But being a business requires more that just being savvy, who have to a great with your money and great man manager. He over spend on many things blindly (Invincible album), with which he felt he no limits financially. You could try to counteract it by saying it was 'yes men' but that's difference between an actually businessmen like Bill Gates and Richard Branson vs MJ who was resourceful person, but not the greatest business man. Brad S. said the same thing in a recent podcast. So overall I think his poor decisions affected things badly.

I agree totally!

 

[barbee0715]

This going to hurt some feeling but it has to be said with honesty. MJ wasn't the savviest when it came to associations a lot of the time, both business but towards his personal life. He also wasn't a 'businessman' per se. Yes, he had great instinct, resourcefulness, initiative and the ability to think on his feet. But being a business requires more that just being savvy, who have to a great with your money and great man manager. He over spend on many things blindly (Invincible album), with which he felt he no limits financially. You could try to counteract it by saying it was 'yes men' but that's difference between an actually businessmen like Bill Gates and Richard Branson vs MJ who was resourceful person, but not the greatest business man. Brad S. said the same thing in a recent podcast. So overall I think his poor decisions affected things badly.

I think Michael made a lot of decisions by instinct. And hiring Branca and diLeo were instinctive but proved to be savvy decisions.
When he wanted to make Thriller, although too expensive for CBS, when he wanted that specific music catalog because the songs meant something to him, when he wanted that property to create Neverland, they were able to make the savvy financial deals to make it happen. And not waste Michael's money in the process.

Later attys and managers didn't have the same smarts and loyalties and they just threw Michael's money at projects.

 

[KOPV]

One of Mikes smartest moves was the lack of moves he did.... Meaning, he understood what over exposer can do to negatively effect a career, creating a sense of mystery - making seeing him a rarity which raises the value of an appearance..