Murray Trial - 6 October - Day 8 - Discussion

[cinzia]

OR thought just came to me.....he drained it in that urine bottle....the one that was on the nightstand. Maybe Murray himself was using that bottle to relieve himself in. seeing as Michael had the catheter on. Murray panicked like you said and dumped the stuff into the urine...and that is why it tested positive for propofol??? just an idea.

pretty creative idea but that would have been detectable. remember that propofol is milky in color.

 

[loveforever]

Well I just don't think it would be all that usual for a 50 yr old man to sleep with dolls, is all.......so that makes me wonder if someone put that doll there.

If I remember correctly it's a tiny doll placed on night stand, it's for display, I had a few on my table too. Btw I love those smiling babies pictures, they are so cute.

 

[lemon662]

I didn't see that, can someone post a picture?

Here's a link with the pic: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...el-Jacksons-doll-drug-stash-shown-jurors.html

 

[Mirabella76]

Just guessing. Flick was asked for many times about who made photos and whether they displaced items. She didn't remeber who made some photos and agreed that items were displaced. What if that unknown fingerprints was belong to one who made pics. Maybe one of investigators touched the evidence without gloves like Flick and Alvarez's fingerprintes were erased and because wasn't identified lately.

 

[xthunderx2]

pretty creative idea but that would have been detectable. remember that propofol is milky in color.

ok yes,,,it would be kinda white looking.. Guess I am far to tired to try and think anymore today...:hug:

 

[qbee]

Waiting for Chernoff to get some answers , as usual Walgren speaking in general . He told every monkey and his mama he gave him lorazepam , later he said I gave him lorazepam on two nigts previously. You found lorazepam in high concentraion and list it as a contributor to death still did not bother to test for it in any of the organs beside the blood!!! Idiots, no wonder Murray has no intention of pleading guilty .

Apparently level in organs are not not indicative of what was given that day but coud be day prior or 2 days past
The blood is most important for the last hours and the Prosecution expert gave the answers that was needed.
but Im concerned that you called prosecution idiots when you are not a medical expert or even knew what these
finding would finally show It was a good day in court again for the prosecution to show MJ did not swallow
multiple lorazapam pills nor did not have any demoral in his system. and that muniscule content in stomach is
normal and does not indicate it was taken orally.

 

[Autumn II]

I hate to say this but it seems really very bizarre and somewhat creepy that there was a porcelan doll in/on MJ's bed. Not sure if he routinely "slept" with such a doll.........or perhaps Murray put it there intentionally (prior to EMS arriving) to make MJ look somewhat "off"?

It could have belonged to Paris, his daughter, who was of the age to play with dolls at that time? (My daughter used to leave her stuff in my room all the time.)

 

[lemon662]

pretty creative idea but that would have been detectable. remember that propofol is milky in color.

True, Propofol in the vial is a milky color BUT if it was injected into a 1000ml bag of IV solution it would be diluted quite a bit and then if you dumped the remaining fluid, as someone suggested, into the urinal that contained the urine (to quickly get rid of it), it might not be evident that the urine was somewhat cloudy, particularly if that urine had been sitting in that container for some period of time.

 

[wendy2004]

I hate to say this but it seems really very bizarre and somewhat creepy that there was a porcelan doll in/on MJ's bed. Not sure if he routinely "slept" with such a doll.........or perhaps Murray put it there intentionally (prior to EMS arriving) to make MJ look somewhat "off"?

I think some things are just Michael...may seem a lil off to some...but what're you gonna do? When I saw the big pic of the baby on the chair I kinda smiled and smh...cuz it was just....Michael. It's like when he used to go out in public in jammie bottoms and a dinner jacket. You kinda shake your head (cuz you know ppl are gonna itch about it) but you smile cuz it's so Michael.

 

[Soundmind]

well, to clarify what he said, he did not really eliminate the theory that lorazepam was taken orally. Half life was more than 9 hours . If he took it orally hours before death it would have disappeared from his stomach but would still be detected in his blood. 1/40 was actually in regard to Flanagan's question whether the 6x lorazepam concentration in stomach to that of blood indicated an oral consumption , the expert said not really it was 1/40 to a 2mg pills .


He had no way of knowing whether it was taken orally or via an IV. I believe they need the liver concentration to do that which obvioulsy they did not measure " because lorazepam was not important to us"


That's my understanding of what he said , correct me if I'm wrong please .

 

[cinzia]

just to clarify.sorry im half asleep here. so in mjs blood he guesses at 11mg. thats seperate to what was found in the stomach.the amount in the stomach found was 1/40 of 2mg.



so defence claim there was 16mg in mjs stomach? and 4 in the blood?

kinda confused by the huge difference

This whole line of questioning is built on a foundation of sand IMHO. The defense presents as its basis a book with monographs about the post mortem redistribution of Lorazepam based on a sample of 2. The witness tries to avoid going down that road but is compelled to show that based on various assumptions and suppositions, one could use the loraz. blood levels to extrapolate backwards to arrive at an amount which would eventually degrade, due to half life, into the blood level found at autopsy. Based on this he arrived at 11 mg of lorazepam but could not assume a route of administration.
Based on analysis of the stomach, he concluded 1/40th of a 2 mg pill.
Now I'm wondering how long it takes a 2 mg pill to be digested so only 1'40th remains.
I also wonder if Anderson were asked, would the 11 mg have to be taken all at once or several at one time and later several more. After all, it is all assumptions and if I remember accurately, didn't Anderson say that no one does this retrograde extrapolation?
All of this from defense is assumptions and suppostions and what ifs. All that's lacking is an imaginary friend.

I don't recall def. saying 16 mg in stomach but then I was having a hard time following Flanagans tortured questioning...

 

[lemon662]

God, Nancy Grace is such an idiot. She's going on and on about how Propofol was found in "every organ of MJ's body........his pancreas, his spleen." Um, it was not found in every organ, nor these particular organs. She should get her facts straight before going off on one of her histrionic rants.

 

[CrazyVegasMJ]

Idk why exactly but I really kinda like Jane Valez Mitchell.. I remember her during the 2005 trial an even now she seems very fair about what she reports and how she covers both sides.. Plus this interview she just did with one of MJ's friends from the Partridge Family was really nice and it seemed like she and he were trying to convince people that he could not have committed such acts with kids and how he was always misunderstood..

 

[smoothlugar]

]just to clarify.sorry im half asleep here. so in mjs blood he guesses at 11mg. thats seperate to what was found in the stomach.the amount in the stomach found was 1/40 of 2mg.

so defence claim there was 16mg in mjs stomach?

That's what Chernoff said on the first day regarding total amount of medicine taken(8 pills of 2mg each).

and 4 in the blood?

That's what Murray admits giving 4mg of IV lorazepam .

kinda confused by the huge difference

Flanagan was much more confused!!

 

[rita.gibson]

OR thought just came to me.....he drained it in that urine bottle....the one that was on the nightstand. Maybe Murray himself was using that bottle to relieve himself in. seeing as Michael had the catheter on. Murray panicked like you said and dumped the stuff into the urine...and that is why it tested positive for propofol??? just an idea.

Anderson said that all he was aware was that it came from the crime scene, but that it could have been any ones urine,

 

[Milka]

Here's a link with the pic: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...el-Jacksons-doll-drug-stash-shown-jurors.html

Thank you! Like someone said, maybe it wasn't his. And if it was, that wouldn't surprise me either.

 

[cinzia]

True, Propofol in the vial is a milky color BUT if it was injected into a 1000ml bag of IV solution it would be diluted quite a bit and then if you dumped the remaining fluid, as someone suggested, into the urinal that contained the urine (to quickly get rid of it), it might not be evident that the urine was somewhat cloudy, particularly if that urine had been sitting in that container for some period of time.

But there were no drugs in the main tubing so he would have had to change the tubing also. And depending on how much IV solution was remaining in the bag, the urine would have been pretty dilute. I think this would have been detected by just a routine dipstick. But this does bring up something Anderson made plain, he doesn't know, no one knows, who that urine belonged to. Sure we can assume and I'm sure it was Michael's but proof of this? Where is it? Not that it changes much but still...

 

[smoothlugar]

well, to clarify what he said, he did not really eliminate the theory that lorazepam was taken orally. Half life was more than 9 hours . If he took it orally hours before death it would have disappeared from his stomach but would still be detected in his blood. 1/40 was actually in regard to Flanagan's question whether the 6x lorazepam concentration in stomach to that of blood indicated an oral consumption , the expert said not really it was 1/40 to a 2mg pills .


He had no way of knowing whether it was taken orally or via an IV. I believe they need the liver concentration to do that which obvioulsy they did not measure " because lorazepam was not important to us"


That's my understanding of what he said , correct me if I'm wrong please .

I understood that when he talked about that half life he was talking about blood levels, the time it would take the substance to disappear from the body.

Before talking about lorazepam he said related to propofol that the blood sample is the most reliable because due to post-mortem redistribution other peripherial organs are not so accurate and can get higher levels because of its redistribution.
So I assume something similar may happen with the lorazepam.

 

[xthunderx2]

Anderson said that all he was aware was that it came from the crime scene, but that it could have been any ones urine,

so I guess my theory may not be so far fetched then.. one never knows I guess

 

[wendy2004]

Anderson said that all he was aware was that it came from the crime scene, but that it could have been any ones urine,

I caught that part and was slightly disturbed by it becuz I thought it would have automatically been matched somehow to the urine in the bladder to determine it came from MJ. Plus, Murray, in his police interview, mentions he'd gone to the bathroom to "allegedly" empty jars of urine Michael had filled overnight. We know he didn't do that and lied about it cuz the jug was still full and no additional jugs (full or empty) were recovered. So, it appears the jar collected was the one and only jar in the bedroom.

In any case, the urine in the jar and in the bladder means Michael had propofol at least within the last 72 hrs prior to his death if Anderson's time schedule is on point.

 

[rainny]

I can't listen to Flanagan and absolutely can't take his manner of talking

He reminds me of actors playing lawyer in old black and white movies.

 

[Soundmind]

but Im concerned that you called prosecution idiots:sad: when you are not a medical expert or even knew what these

What do you call someone who classifies a drug that was detected in high concentration in blood as " unimportant" which was later stated as a contributing factor in death?

He told them I started to wean him off propofol using lorazepam and midazolam two days prior to death but neither the toxicologist nor the coroner felt they needed to verify the accuracy of that statement by testing for it in urine !!!


He told them I gave him lorazepam at 2 am , 5 am . 4 mg in total , but they found concentration consistent with larger dose , but they did not feel it was necessary to test for it in liver to see whether the result is consistent with the doctor's statement!!!


Only an idiot leaves a syringe inserted into the tube of an IV system at a death scene when the victim is 50 years old and there is no apparent cause of death. How could an investigator leave a bottle of juice at the scene found open near the bed ,what if he was poisoned?

what if Murray did not give them a statement ?

 

[adrianmonk]

well, to clarify what he said, he did not really eliminate the theory that lorazepam was taken orally. Half life was more than 9 hours . If he took it orally hours before death it would have disappeared from his stomach but would still be detected in his blood. 1/40 was actually in regard to Flanagan's question whether the 6x lorazepam concentration in stomach to that of blood indicated an oral consumption , the expert said not really it was 1/40 to a 2mg pills .


He had no way of knowing whether it was taken orally or via an IV. I believe they need the liver concentration to do that which obvioulsy they did not measure " because lorazepam was not important to us"


That's my understanding of what he said , correct me if I'm wrong please .

if lorazepam was taken orally, it would take a bit of time to take effect (1-2 hours after administration), so it is true that it could have hypothetically been gone from the stomach... HOWEVER, orally taken it would also have a more gradual onset of effect, so if Michael took 5 pills at once, Murray should have seen the effects of the drug even if he was in/out of the room on the phone/not paying attention, so i'm not sure how the defense can spin this in their favor???

 

[adrianmonk]

What do you call someone who classifies a drug that was detected in high concentration in blood as " unimportant" which was later stated as a contributing factor in death?

He told them I started to wean him off propofol using lorazepam and midazolam two days prior to death but neither the toxicologist nor the coroner felt they needed to verify the accuracy of that statement by testing for it in urine !!!


He told them I gave him lorazepam at 2 am , 5 am . 4 mg in total , but they found concentration consistent with larger dose , but they did not feel it was necessary to test for it in liver to see whether the result is consistent with the doctor's statement!!!


Only an idiot leaves a syringe inserted into the tube of an IV system at a death scene when the victim is 50 years old and there is no apparent cause of death. How could an investigator leave a bottle of juice at the scene found open near the bed ,what if he was poisoned?

what if Murray did not give them a statement ?

question, did the toxicologist know what murray stated he gave??

also, related question, Ms. Fleack stated that Murray only released medical records for previous years, do we know did Murray keep ANY record of what he was giving Michael in the last few months???

 

[rita.gibson]

I caught that part and was slightly disturbed by it becuz I thought it would have automatically been matched somehow to the urine in the bladder to determine it came from MJ. Plus, Murray, in his police interview, mentions he'd gone to the bathroom to "allegedly" empty jars of urine Michael had filled overnight. We know he didn't do that and lied about it cuz the jug was still full and no additional jugs (full or empty) were recovered. So, it appears the jar collected was the one and only jar in the bedroom.

In any case, the urine in the jar and in the bladder means Michael had propofol at least within the last 72 hrs prior to his death if Anderson's time schedule is on point.

I also wondered why they wouldn't have tried to match the two samples, but then I wondered if maybe the propofol would have made such a test imposible.


Thunder I hope we might get an answer to that somewhere along the way.

 

[Bridgett_361]

I think Anderson say the reason for not fully testing some thing is because the drug me have been in the prescribe dosees and not the overdose amount case in point. The Ativan was in the limit and not the over dose limit so they did not test the stomach for the drug. But we can look over the summery more when it's post.

 

[wendy2004]

question, did the toxicologist know what murray stated he gave??

also, related question, Ms. Fleack stated that Murray only released medical records for previous years, do we know did Murray keep ANY record of what he was giving Michael in the last few months???

There were no records from 2009. Walgren went down the dates of Murray's treatment (exams and whatnot) which dated back to 2006 yet NO 2009 exam sheets or records were submitted for 2009 when we know Murray started spending the night in May 2009. Hopefully, the jury took note of this omission. It shows Murray, to this day, is still hiding info and covering his butt. Where are the records from May and June before MJ died. There should have been some to document the treatments he was giving/doing. He wrote prescriptions for MJ in 2009 and most prescriptions are written based on some sort of examination of the patient...yet Murray submitted zero exam sheets for 2009.

 

[Autumn II]

question, did the toxicologist know what murray stated he gave??

I haven't heard any testimony that the toxicologist had been given the police report on what Murray stated, at the time he did the analysis. So no, he didn't know.

also, related question, Ms. Fleack stated that Murray only released medical records for previous years, do we know did Murray keep ANY record of what he was giving Michael in the last few months???

Haven't seen ANY current medical records entered into evidence, or notebooks collected at the scene, or anything like that. It's critical to note times/amounts of medication given, but Murray didn't seem to know that. He went so far as to say "at the hospital he wasn't wearing a watch, and had no concept of time!" But yet timing and amounts of medication are crucial for safety. At the very least, he should have recorded amounts and times, when medications were given. That he apparently did NOT do that is yet another sign of gross-negligence.

Regarding whether or not Michael self-medicated with benzos? Regardless of tox report, ADDITIONALLY, the location of bottle with benzos was in the bathroom, not on the night-stand. Michael would have had a push an I.V. pole in there (and there was that condom catheter, too) to take the pills. PLUS, none of Michael's fingerprints were found on bottles of medications. Murray's fingerprint WAS found on a bottle of propofol. Pretty tricky, for Michael to open a pill bottle but leave NO fingerprints? Nope. He didn't self-medicate.

 

[adrianmonk]

i thought the nightstand had on it: lorazepam, diazepam, flomax, bayer asprin, plus whatever was in that basket, a few feet from the bed

 

[wendy2004]

I haven't heard any testimony that the toxicologist had been given the police report on what Murray stated, at the time he did the analysis. So no, he didn't know.



Haven't seen ANY current medical records entered into evidence, or notebooks collected at the scene, or anything like that. It's critical to note times/amounts of medication given, but Murray didn't seem to know that. He went so far as to say "at the hospital he wasn't wearing a watch, and had no concept of time!" But yet timing and amounts of medication are crucial for safety. At the very least, he should have recorded amounts and times, when medications were given. That he apparently did NOT do that is yet another sign of gross-negligence.

Regarding whether or not Michael self-medicated with benzos? Regardless of tox report, ADDITIONALLY, the location of bottle with benzos was in the bathroom, not on the night-stand. Michael would have had a push an I.V. pole in there (and there was that condom catheter, too) to take the pills. PLUS, none of Michael's fingerprints were found on bottles of medications. Murray's fingerprint WAS found on a bottle of propofol. Pretty tricky, for Michael to open a pill bottle but leave NO fingerprints? Nope. He didn't self-medicate.

I'm not sure about the bottle in the bathroom but yesterdayWalgren showed a picture of the meds found on the wooden table near the bed and the prescription Murray wrote for 4/28/09 was on that table. I'm looking at my notes where Walgren noted each med. on the table and who prescribed it. I also saw the photo he put up for the jury and saw the bottle.

I think the bottle you are talking about may have something to do with that photo Chernoff put up today (showing 3 isolated medication bottles) that Fleak could not identify. He then ended his cross-exam of her without saying more. That was kinda weird cuz the photo Walgen presented from the nightstand was clearly of 4 medication bottles (collected by Fleak). Maybe someone else here caught more about that; whether it was another pic of the 4 meds from a different angle taken without Fleak's knowledge...OR if it was a pic of diff. meds. I believe one had the top off the bottle and the label half ripped away. All of Fleak's bottles had tops.

Lemme check the pic thread to see if any screenshots of the meds are there...