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Observations

Modulation Alert said:
Unfortunately, this whole "standing around shocked" reaction is all too common. I remember "walking in" on a group of fly looking bankers in beautiful suits- all leaning over a guy on the floor with foam around his mouth, obviously in trouble. And these are guys that handle the millions of other people- yet they were all to busy scratching their heads, wondering what to do. I had to literally scream to get 911 going.

Some people kick into gear earlier under stress, other people just lose themselves in OMG OMG OMG.

In that situation I am not surprised that the bodyguard just did what he was told to do, he might have been "trained" to follow orders of someone with presumed "higher authority". Don't know.

However, it shows more than clearly that Murray knew what he was doing and that's the really creepy part.
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exactly.....by ordering the bodyguard to hide the stuff in a bag....he was tampering with evidence...Murray knew exactly what he was doing....and he was hoping to get away with it.
 
Modulation Alert said:
Unfortunately, this whole "standing around shocked" reaction is all too common. I remember "walking in" on a group of fly looking bankers in beautiful suits- all leaning over a guy on the floor with foam around his mouth, obviously in trouble. And these are guys that handle the millions of other people- yet they were all to busy scratching their heads, wondering what to do. I had to literally scream to get 911 going.

Some people kick into gear earlier under stress, other people just lose themselves in OMG OMG OMG.

In that situation I am not surprised that the bodyguard just did what he was told to do, he might have been "trained" to follow orders of someone with presumed "higher authority". Don't know.
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You're right. That is quite possible.

I DO remember him saying months later that Murray fooled him.
 
:agree: He must have been thinking, 'doctor knows better what to do'. And Murray knew what he was doing.
 
5. report: The bedroom to the right of the staircase contained a queen size bed, numerous tables and chairs, a dresser and a television. There was also a large attached walk-in closet. The bedding was disheveled and appeared as though someone had been lying on the left side of the bed. There was a blue plastic pad lined with cotton on the left side of the fitted sheet near the center of the bed. Near the left foot of the bed, there was a string of wooden beads and a tube of toothpaste. Miscellaneous items remained on the right side of the bed including a book, laptop compter and eyeglasses. Also near the foot of the bed, there was a closed bottle of urine atop a chair.

d98a7ea7bc06.jpg


The pillow on the left side of the bed looks untouched, or is it just the light. Save the picture and zoom in to get a better look. It looks untouched to me.

One other thing, if Michael was laying of the left side of the bed, why was his beads and toothpaste on the left side of the bed? By the way, don't those beads look familiar?

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i285/bishojoKasume/610x.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i...117352993960_579028960_2140115_399210_n-1.jpg
 
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kasume said:
The bedding was disheveled and appeared as though someone had been lying on the left side of the bed.
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kasume said:
The pillow on the left side of the bed looks untouched, or is it just the light.
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Yes, left side. The report is correct. :yes: For that we're looking at the picture on the computer, is the right side of the bed.




kasume said:
d98a7ea7bc06.jpg


By the way, don't those beads look familiar?

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i285/bishojoKasume/610x.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i...117352993960_579028960_2140115_399210_n-1.jpg
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmm I can not find the picture of the bedroom. :scratch:
 
Ashtanga said:
Yes, left side. The report is correct. :yes: For that we're looking at the picture on the computer, is the right side of the bed.
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I know, I see that too. And that confused me at first, but I went back and found that the details of the beads and toothpaste and plastic pad were all in consistent position with the photo, except the sides were different. So then maybe the detective was detailing it from HIS left, not the bed's left.
 
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kasume said:
I know, I see that too. And that confused me at first, but I went back and found that the details of the beads and toothpaste and plastic pad were all on the same side and it consistent position with the photo, except the sides were different. So then maybe the detective was detailing it from HIS left, not the bed's left.
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Yes...

Lying in bed, on the right side that things are all over (the pillow is untouchable) and beside the bed. The left side, the pillow is messy and the picture of the bedroom, it is can see that you have more things under the blanket.

The investigator was confused with the sides of bed. :doh: :sigh: >>> No comments!
 
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i dnt think he was confused. he was probably detailing the scene from his right.
 
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kasume said:
i dnt think he was confused. he was probably detailing the scene from his right.
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Ok. -_- Do not you think that the investigator/police when read, looking at the pictures of the bedroom to confer to see if both corroborate (description of scene and picture), was not completely confused? Obviously yes. Anyone would be completely confused by doing this conference, this is fact. :doh: But I really do not doubt that such a conference was not made. :smilerolleyes: For me, this is shoddy work or............. :fear:

In my opinion, he had to describe the scene otherwise keeping in mind the person lying in bed (which is correct) and not what he was seeing in foot facing/next the bed or whatever which is the angle that the person was looking............ -_-

:fear:
 
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The position of the objects on the bed correlate with the description in the autopsy, when it is seen from the observer's left.

However, there are other things wrong with the comparison between this photo and the description in the autopsy. But I'll just keep that silent.

But I must keep in mind, this picture and the detective description were not taken on the same day.

Even this scene discription mentions the plumped up pillow. The thing is, that plumped up pillow is on the observer's left, just like the toothpaste and beads. The dectetive said it appeared someone was lying on the left.
 
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Ohood said:
if you please Jelle bean , I myself has another observation, and i wish that it is Ok to share them in your thread.

1- why Randy Phillips and Frank Dileo did not scream when they arrived to the hospital" where is his doctor , where is Murray , what happened to Michael , where were u last night and all these questions ??? Latoya who did not know about the exsictance of Murray asked him all these questions !
2- they were silent infront of the door waiting for the doctors to announce MJ's death as if this is something they expected, no one of them said , i was praying i was very anxious i was worried ,,,,, all what they said was we were waiting !

3- Murray did not leave the hospital until he made sure to hear the news of MJ's death himself, why he did not leave earlier,,,, he could not move auntil he was sure that MJ is not gonna comeback !

4- when Murray said that he was hungry after hearing the news is no lie, because it sounds like the student who feels hungry after finishing the exam or like getting out of a long meeting or after a busy day at work...when u finish you mission u feel hungry...
Do u think that he really was satisfied to finish his mission and unconsciouslyhe was going to reward himself with a good meal !

5- how suddenly Tohme came out of no where with Delio, Philips, Jermaine,,,u know ! why he found himself in charge to talk in the name of MJ , who allowed him to do so and who asked him to come , or was he prepared for this task in the first place ?
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There are other reasonable explanations besides the ones you have stated.

You cannot presume to know why some people acted in a certain situation and base your opinion on them on how you felt they should have acted.
 
^^^Not to be rude but can you give examples of other "reasonable explainations"? please just sayin... :unsure:
this is starting to look very ugly.
 
Number four and five of Ohood's list are excellent observations. And Observations don't always have to be correct. We place them on here to analyze them. I've noticed some observations on here that I don't believe are true, and I give reasons and explanations as to why.

For number four, no, I don't think Murray was hungry or at LEAST wasn't unconscioussly rewarding himself for a good meal. Murray complained that he was hungry and needed his car. YET, Murray puts aside his hunger and insists to go to the house to "hide cream that Michael wouldn't want the world to find out about." And in the search warrant, it states something different, that he insisted because "he forgot his doctors bag at the house." Looks to me that he FORGOT to do something in his mission actually, or was overly self conscious about something.

There is NO explanation for Thome's appearance at the conference. NONE. His appearance up there was ABSOLUTELY irrelevant. Why introduce Jermaine a second time when he was already introduced ten seconds ago? If someone can honsetly give me a very good reason or explanation for that bolded question, I would be glad to hear it. And why did DiLeo allow him to go up there? Why didn't DiLeo stop and tell him, "hey, you've been done with Michael weeks ago"?
 
Wow, there is so much to think about, it really makes me sad. I was surprised that Thome was at the hospital as well, but I didn't know about the part of him introducing Jermaine a second time? That's odd. Could Thome have been there because he was still insisting that he worked for Michael? Or could he have been there with Jermaine? Didn't Jermaine introduce Thome to Michael?

Another thing, and I think I may have started a thread about this, or at least posted in one, but the press conference still bothers me. I really can't put my finger on it except the part where he says "OK" and he sounds funny, but I came away with a bad feeling after watching that the first time, and I should have been excited. Because of that, I do think that we have to look at everyone involved with Michael from the point of the deal to do the concerts forward, because something was very wrong.
 
jilliebean said:
Wow, there is so much to think about, it really makes me sad. I was surprised that Thome was at the hospital as well, but I didn't know about the part of him introducing Jermaine a second time? That's odd. Could Thome have been there because he was still insisting that he worked for Michael? Or could he have been there with Jermaine? Didn't Jermaine introduce Thome to Michael?

Another thing, and I think I may have started a thread about this, or at least posted in one, but the press conference still bothers me. I really can't put my finger on it except the part where he says "OK" and he sounds funny, but I came away with a bad feeling after watching that the first time, and I should have been excited. Because of that, I do think that we have to look at everyone involved with Michael from the point of the deal to do the concerts forward, because something was very wrong.
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Thome came with Randy Phillips to the hospital. They arrived together. I find that rather odd. There is a video of them, I think in the hoax section.
 
jrsfan said:
Thome came with Randy Phillips to the hospital. They arrived together. I find that rather odd. There is a video of them, I think in the hoax section.
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Wow, that is odd, because I would think that Randy Phillips would know that Thome didn't represent Michael anymore since Frank was back in the picture. I did see something about Randy P. and Thome being ex brother in-laws or something...weird.
 
That's really strange that Thome and Randy came to the hospital together. Makes me wonder if they were expecting things to turn out as they did.
 
jrsfan said:
Thome came with Randy Phillips to the hospital. They arrived together. I find that rather odd. There is a video of them, I think in the hoax section.
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No, they didn't arrive at the hospital together. I thought that too, but they left the hospital together. I found that out about two weeks ago.

Around 1:50, Randy describes sitting outside the room and then "Frank eventually arrived" and they sat together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVrO776S_UI
 
kasume said:
No, they didn't arrive at the hospital together. I thought that too, but they left the hospital together. I found that out about two weeks ago.

Around 1:50, Randy describes sitting outside the room and then "Frank eventually arrived" and they sat together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVrO776S_UI
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I've never seen that before. This is what stood out to me with what he said. First: Why does he say Michael whispered to him "Now I know I can really do this.." That was the day before he passed. Wouldn't Michael know he could do these shows if he is (supposedly) the one who contacted AEG and agreed to do the shows. And if Michael was in such great shape and didn't have any stage fright or anything, than why would there ever be any doubt, by Michael or AEG.

Also she asked him "What was going through your mind while you were waiting?" He starts to answer, "shock... then he starts talking about the kids and "who was going to tell the kids", Is it odd to be thinking this while you are waiting to here if he is going to make it or not? Did he just get ahead of himself in his story telling?

Another thing is later he is talking about when the kids were told, and he refers to Michael as "the father" that struck me as odd that he just didn't say Michael.

I don't know about Kenny or Frank, but I don't think I trust this guy, and I know there is something weird about Thome.
 
jilliebean said:
Also she asked him "What was going through your mind while you were waiting?" He starts to answer, "shock... then he starts talking about the kids and "who was going to tell the kids", Is it odd to be thinking this while you are waiting to here if he is going to make it or not? Did he just get ahead of himself in his story telling?
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wow...i never caught that...like a premonition of Michael's death.

jilliebean said:
I don't know about Kenny or Frank, but I don't think I trust this guy, and I know there is something weird about Thome.
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I believe Thome and Frank are working together.
 
jilliebean said:
Also she asked him "What was going through your mind while you were waiting?" He starts to answer, "shock... then he starts talking about the kids and "who was going to tell the kids", Is it odd to be thinking this while you are waiting to here if he is going to make it or not? Did he just get ahead of himself in his story telling?
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I believe that they knew that Michael was dead even before they arrived at the hospital.

Remember the paramedics wanted to pronounce Michael dead at the scene. TMZ broke the story hours earlier because as they told in their live chat once again paramedics told them he was gone. Plus 2 of Michael's bodyguards were in the room before and after 911 call, they probably heard the talks between Murray and paramedics and would have told it to Frank perhaps even before they left the house. Frank also said that the nurse came out and said that he was gone but they were working on him until his mother came.

Therefore I think that people at the hospital such as Frank, Randy etc knew he was gone and had no reason to believe that he might make it.
 
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ivy said:
I believe that they knew that Michael was dead even before they arrived at the hospital.

Remember the paramedics wanted to pronounce Michael dead at the scene. TMZ broke the story hours earlier because as they told in their live chat once again paramedics told them he was gone. Plus 2 of Michael's bodyguards were in the room before and after 911 call, they probably heard the talks between Murray and paramedics and would have told it to Frank perhaps even before they left the house. Frank also said that the nurse came out and said that he was gone but they were working on him until his mother came.

Therefore I think that people at the hospital such as Frank, Randy etc knew he was gone and had no reason to believe that he might make it.
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First of all, according to Randy, all Frank said was "something's wrong. He's not breathing." He didn't say, "Michael's dead."

Randy also said, "they were working really hard. the doctors, nurses, everbody." That should give Randy at least the slightest bit of hope that Michael may make it, if doctors and nurses had still not given up. But instead, while doctors and nurses were working of Michael, trying to resusitate him, Randy was sitting their shocked and thinking how to break the news.

Yeah, the nurse came out and told them Michael was gone AFTER Randy waited for an hour thinking of how to tell the children their father was gone.
 
ivy said:
I believe that they knew that Michael was dead even before they arrived at the hospital.

Remember the paramedics wanted to pronounce Michael dead at the scene. TMZ broke the story hours earlier because as they told in their live chat once again paramedics told them he was gone. Plus 2 of Michael's bodyguards were in the room before and after 911 call, they probably heard the talks between Murray and paramedics and would have told it to Frank perhaps even before they left the house. Frank also said that the nurse came out and said that he was gone but they were working on him until his mother came.

Therefore I think that people at the hospital such as Frank, Randy etc knew he was gone and had no reason to believe that he might make it.
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That makes sense, but I guess they can't say that? I think he may have been gone at the house too, but I thought there was someone at the hospital who said that he had a pulse? It does seem like a long time to work on someone who is already gone. I hope we know the truth someday :no:
 
jilliebean said:
I didn't know about the part of him introducing Jermaine a second time? That's odd. Could Thome have been there because he was still insisting that he worked for Michael? Or could he have been there with Jermaine? Didn't Jermaine introduce Thome to Michael?
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I personally believe Thome showing up at the press conference and giving that uncessary introduction was the sign of "mission accomplished."
 
I'm overwhelmed that a stupid protocol did not allow paramedics to declare Michael dead on the scene..:( The time MJ was pronounced dead is totally different from the actual time he died, disallowing any proper service of justice.
Everything would have gone down a totally different road! The house would have been sealed, evidence would have remained intact, Murray would have been brought to justice sooner and perhaps with heavier charges..
 
Maria MJ said:
I'm overwhelmed that a stupid protocol did not allow paramedics to declare Michael dead on the scene..:( The time MJ was pronounced dead is totally different from the actual time he died, disallowing any proper service of justice.
Everything would have gone down a totally different road! The house would have been sealed, evidence would have remained intact, Murray would have been brought to justice sooner and perhaps with heavier charges..
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I believe that was all part of the plan Maria!
 
I'm shocked because everything that could easily go wrong with such an evil plan, eventually didn't!!
I believe the risky part was having the house sealed. This is what shouldn't have happened, and they made sure it didn't. Any decent doctor would have pronounced Michael dead in the mansion.
Murray made sure this wouldn't happen by claiming Michael was still alive, thus leaving the space free for anyone to walk in and cherry pick on evidence and valuable material.
 
kasume said:
First of all, according to Randy, all Frank said was "something's wrong. He's not breathing." He didn't say, "Michael's dead."

Randy also said, "they were working really hard. the doctors, nurses, everbody." That should give Randy at least the slightest bit of hope that Michael may make it, if doctors and nurses had still not given up. But instead, while doctors and nurses were working of Michael, trying to resusitate him, Randy was sitting their shocked and thinking how to break the news.

Yeah, the nurse came out and told them Michael was gone AFTER Randy waited for an hour thinking of how to tell the children their father was gone.
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Well thats wrong, because after Michael's death, Frank did various interviews where he says the nurse had already told them Michael was gone, but they'd continue resuscitation efforts until his mother had arrived. Second, they wanted to pronounce Michael dead at his home, it's possible this was already told to immediate family members and friends as soon as they arrived or initially heard the news. Barring some miracle, it was already too late, now as an Uncle and Brother, you're not thinking of the slight chance that a miracle happens, you're thinking about the most logical realistic thing that can happen, so of course he'd have to think about what to tell the children, before receiving an official announcement.
 
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