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surveillance tapes (all threads merged)

qbee said:
The testimony of ONE unknown person about the amount of security tripling that evening
has never been colabarated by anyone else .. in fact all present witnesses have never stated
any such thing .. so we should take that with a grain of salt.
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On this specific point i agree. I shouldn't have included that in my original post. From what i have recently gathered, it appears that other witnesses may not agree with that statement about the number of security.
 
QuirkyDiana00 said:
On this specific point i agree. I shouldn't have included that in my original post. From what i have recently gathered, it appears that other witnesses may not agree with that statement about the number of security.
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now see here is where I myself get confused..because shortly after the 25th..could of been the 27th or even the 28th...the person that I spoke to ALSO told me about the increase in security that night...more security than usual...I believe that the person who told me about it WAS there and saw it first hand. This really is confusing because the person who told me ..as far as I know has no personal agenda.
 
xthunderx2 said:
now see here is where I myself get confused..because shortly after the 25th..could of been the 27th or even the 28th...the person that I spoke to ALSO told me about the increase in security that night...more security than usual...I believe that the person who told me about it WAS there and saw it first hand. This really is confusing because the person who told me ..as far as I know has no personal agenda.
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I guess first of all you have to be sure that the person you spoke to was actually a witness and not simply quoting what someone else has said. Secondly, the only person to my knowledge that has stated the security increased like that was Samantha de Gosson. She stated this in her testimony she released, but if i recollect, none of the other 'followers' who released testimony mentioned the security increasing.
 
There are issues with fan testimonies

First of all they weren't outside the house all the time, they left sometime after Michael's arrival. From testimonies we also heard that day security briefed night security and then left. So it explains that during shift changes there would be double security + staff managers etc. but they later leave.

I believe same person also claimed seeing security tapes being thrown away - if I'm not mistaken. and as we know that's not possible as the tapes are digital recordings on a hard drive and was very much present (not thrown away) when LAPD went to examine them.

Yes in the testimonies they say that the front door to the house (not the gate) was left unlocked but that Michael locked the doors at night. When you look to Alberto Alvarez testimony the doors was still locked when he arrived the house as the nanny had to open them from the inside for him.
 
ivy said:
When you look to Alberto Alvarez testimony the doors was still locked when he arrived the house as the nanny had to open them from the inside for him.
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Ivy, Alberto didn't go to the front door, but to the "french doors" (american for "french windows": access from the garden to the kitchen...). Defence even asked Alberto why didn't he go to the front door as William had asked him.
 
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QuirkyDiana00 said:
I guess first of all you have to be sure that the person you spoke to was actually a witness and not simply quoting what someone else has said. Secondly, the only person to my knowledge that has stated the security increased like that was Samantha de Gosson. She stated this in her testimony she released, but if i recollect, none of the other 'followers' who released testimony mentioned the security increasing.
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the person I spoke with swore she was there and all that extra security was there...it wasn't Samantha. I dont know if she released a statement ..you all would know better than me...because you state only Sam released one.
 
ivy said:
There are issues with fan testimonies

First of all they weren't outside the house all the time, they left sometime after Michael's arrival. From testimonies we also heard that day security briefed night security and then left. So it explains that during shift changes there would be double security + staff managers etc. but they later leave.

I believe same person also claimed seeing security tapes being thrown away - if I'm not mistaken. and as we know that's not possible as the tapes are digital recordings on a hard drive and was very much present (not thrown away) when LAPD went to examine them.

Yes in the testimonies they say that the front door to the house (not the gate) was left unlocked but that Michael locked the doors at night. When you look to Alberto Alvarez testimony the doors was still locked when he arrived the house as the nanny had to open them from the inside for him.
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I agree Ivy..with the bolded....that was false information given to us.
 
ivy said:
I believe same person also claimed seeing security tapes being thrown away - if I'm not mistaken. and as we know that's not possible as the tapes are digital recordings on a hard drive and was very much present (not thrown away) when LAPD went to examine them.
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I wasn't aware of that. Where did she state this?
 
smoothlugar said:
Ivy, Alberto didn't go to the front door, but to the "front doors" (american for "french windows": access from the garden to the kitchen...). Defence even asked Alberto why didn't he go to the front door as William had asked him.
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my understanding he went to the front door

Alvarez Testimony

Q: okay. And what, if anything, did Michael Amir Williams tell you at that time?
A: he proceeded to ask me if I was at the property. I said yes. He said, "okay, please, get up. don't be so abrupt. But, you know, go to the front of the house." he said, "walk to the front. Don't run." once I was walked --

Q: okay. So can you show the path you took from the trailer to the front door?
A: I went out from this door here, and I start from the door from the trailer. And then I came down this way. There is a driveway, and I continued to go into the front door.
Q okay. For the record, you have indicated you came out -- as you look at people's 1, you came out again as looking at the photo, you came out of the right side of the trailer, walked along the exterior of the house along the driveway to what is depicted as the front of the house to the front door?
A: a that's correct, sir.

Q okay. And while you are walking this path, are you on the telephone with Michael Amir Williams?
A: Yes, I am.
Q: and are you continuing to converse with him?
A: yes. And he continued to say, "okay, never mind. Jog to the front of the house." so I started hurrying a little to the front of the house.
Q: okay. And did you actually go to the front door in an attempt to open the door?
A: Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q: okay. And were you able to gain access to the door immediately?
A: not immediately. The door was locked.
Q: showing you people's 2 for identification, sir, do you recognize that as a closeup of the front door area?
A: a yes, sir.
Q: okay. And zooming in to the front door, are those, does that accurately reflect glass doors that you can see through?
A: a yes, sir.
Q: okay. And were you looking through those doors at the time you approached the front doors?
A: when I noticed that it was locked, I proceeded to look and focus inward.
Q: and when you first looked in those glass doors, what, if anything, did you see?
A: I saw the nanny.and I saw Paris next to her. and I also saw Kai Chase further down. and then I looked toward the top, and I noticed Mr. Conrad Murray.

now look to his description

Q can you describe the general vantage point and what we are looking at in people's 6?
A: Yes. It's the main entrance to Mr.Jackson's home. To the left, you had your stairwell, a top balcony. And then to the bottom right, you would have a walkway to the kitchen, to the further right down the hallway.

Q: okay. Now if I heard you correctly, when you looked in the front door, one of the people you saw was Michael Jackson's daughter Paris?
A: yes, standing right next to Rose, Rosalind.
Q : okay. And is that general area where you saw Rosalind and Paris, is that general area depicted in people's 6?

Q : okay. For the record, as you are looking at people's 6, it would be to the left of the photo near the chair and the stairway access to go upstairs? And that was where both sister Rose and Paris was located?
A: that is correct.
Q: where was Kai Chase located if it's depicted in people's 6?
For the record, you are pointing to people's 6. she would be further back from Paris and Rosalind on the right side as you look at the photo?

Q okay. And is that -- where you were pointing to, if you were to walk into the home proceeding straight forward as depicted in people's 6 and proceeded
to the rear, would the kitchen be to your right?
A : that is correct, sir.

Q : okay. Now you also indicated you saw Doctor Murray; is that right?
A: yes, sir.
Q: and where did you see him as you looked in through the glass of the front door?
For the record, you are pointing to the top most portion of people's 6 which is showing the wood railing of the landing area?
A: a yes, sir.


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As you can see Amir Williams told him to go to the front doors and that's where he went. Kitchen doors would have been on the right back.

People's 6 is the main entrance area. When Alvarez comes to the front door and looks through the windows he sees Paris and the nanny by the foot of the stairway, Chase right back towards the kitchen and Murray on the stairway.

so by his description he was looking through the main front doors and not the kitchen doors.

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and here are some photos

front entrance front glass doors

ISfdkfrivtbag3.jpg


stairwell

ISfdgou8kr4ioz.jpg


and what Alvarez was looking at

as this photo was taken from the inside it shows the stairwell on the right. when Alvarez looked to it from outside it would be on the left. and you can see the chair they mention when describing where Paris and the nanny was.

IS1ip8boceevl43.jpg


and I believe this is an view that shows both main and side enterances as well as the security trailer. (Poort is the main street entrance from Carolwood dr. You can see the side entrance at Monovale drive - which looks like at the right back side of the house where the kitchen is reported to be. and my guess the white thing is the security trailer)

2_100_carolwood_drive.jpg
 
The transcription you posted is obviously more complete, the one I had looked to wasn't so clear about peple's 6.

I probably got the wrong impression from a draft in Trials... (when "front doors" were described vs references to the front door; now that part, I cannot see it any longer".
Yet, this other part made me understanding it in a different way... It seems, I wasn't correct:
Do you know anything about cameras pointing at the front door of the residence?
I don't recall sir.

Now that front door is always open, it’s always open?
No, it would be locked up. but the kitchen door, next to the security trial, that door is always locked. For the most part it would be.

Do you remember Michael Amir tell you to go the the front door?
Yes.

Did you know why?
No sir.

The only time we were permitted to go into the property was through the kitchen door and that was to use the bathroom.

But you remember Michael Amir telling you specifically to go to the font door?
Yes sir.
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I edited the above picture to show where everything was

311t7j7.jpg


Below is Amir Williams Testimony. It seems like the defense was asking why he asked Alberto to go the front door when the kitchen door was more close and it was the more regularly used door.

Wiliams testimony

Q: the staff normally, if they went inside the residence, went through the kitchen; is that right?
A: a they would go through the kitchen or the front door depending what they would do.
Q: where is the kitchen door in relation to the front door?
A: right there in relation to the court trailer.
Q: so the kitchen was, what, ten feet away, 20 feet away from the security trailer?
A: few feet away.
Q: you testified earlier that what you told Alberto Alvarez was to go to the front door.
A: uh-huh.
Q: why did you tell him to go to the front door?
A : the kitchen door could be locked. We had so many times we bang on the door. The chef doesn't hear it or she is somewhere.
Q: did that door remain locked?
A: sometimes. So it was always easier to go to the front door, Maybe call someone to unlock the door. we didn't have anyone like who lived in the house we could just call and say, "open the door." if it wasn't the chef's door, it was the front door. for emergencies like this, I didn't think to have him try to bang on the kitchen door. I said, "go right to the front," so he could see in, hoping it was open.
Q: Alberto Alvarez didn't say, "I'm banging on the kitchen door, but nobody is here." you told him, "go directly to the front door"?"
A: I remember saying, "go inside. Go inside." you know, my exact words I don't remember.
Q: you remember him getting to the front door. actually, you did give exact words in your testimony today. You said, "I told him to go to the front door."
A: uh-huh.
Q: is that what you told him?
A: I told him to go -- you know, to be honest, it was a year and a half ago. If I said it in my statement, that was a few months ago, that was my statement. I said, "go to the front door."
Q: front door, is it normally left wide open, unlocked?
A: during the day, it is unlocked. At night, Mr. Jackson would look it.
Q: the security team would allow the front door to Michael Jackson's residence to be unlocked?
A: yes, sir, unless Mr. Jackson wanted it locked which he did at night.
 
Thank you, Ivy.

Is there still any link for those transcriptions?


PS: Before I mentioned a drafted version in Trials & Tribulations. To do them justice I will tell that they could not see images from exhibits clearly, so it was really hard to understand the descriptions about what Alberto Álvarez saw when entering the house ...).
 
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You all know how Michael is with Security.At Neverland With bells signaling when someone is coming or going near his room and Cameras and Montors in a special part of the house. If there are Surveillance tapes missing,don't be shocked if they suddenly turn up on EBAY.Sorry for assuming this but this is bugging me.
 
motion sensor meaning it only recored when someone or thing moved. its wasnt a constant 24 filming. according to earlier court hearings there was something like 14 mins of recording and the defence only had around 5 mins so wanted the rest
 
noirnoar said:
"The video shows Jackson coming home from rehearsal at around 12:30 AM. " But, wasn't reported back on June 2009, that MJJ left Staples at 1:30 AM?
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That's what confuses me too.

One of them is false, and a single mistake can be vital. I think it was reported in the official transcripts that Michael left staples around 12:30, close to 1. Walgren said Michael arrived at home around 1 AM.
 
When Anderson Cooper interviewed Ortega and Randy Philips on 2nd or 3rd of July 2009, they said they saw last time Michael @12:30 at the Staples, and all left @ 12:30AM. Musical director said 12:30AM, Karen twitted 1:30AM, the fan(Samantha De Gosson) said 1:30AM, dancers said 1:30AM. Conrad told officer that he arrived @ MJJ's home around 12:30AM, but Michael arrived at 1:00AM. Some one is lying...Because MJJ did not fly at speed light from Staples Center to his home @12:30. Someone is lying..

Source: Anderson Cooper interview with TII team
 
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Michael Amir Williams testified that Murray's car was at MJ's house BEFORE mj arrived home from Staples. Murray's car was seen arriving at MJ's property at 1am on security footage. It says this in one of the affidavits. So MJ arrived at his home some time after 1am.
 
noirnoar said:
When Anderson Cooper interviewed Ortega and Randy Philips on 2nd or 3rd of July 2009, they said they saw last time Michael @12:30 at the Staples, and all left @ 12:30AM. Musical director said 12:30AM, Karen twitted 1:30AM, the fan(Samantha De Gosson) said 1:30AM, dancers said 1:30AM. Conrad told officer that he arrived @ MJJ's home around 12:30AM, but Michael arrived at 1:00AM. Some one is lying...Because MJJ did not fly at speed light from Staples Center to his home @12:30. Someone is lying..

Source: Anderson Cooper interview with TII team
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Do you have any links where the dancers say 1:30? I have checked some, & couldn't find any. Maybe they said on facebook or twitter? Thanks so much.
 
QuirkyDiana00 said:
Michael Amir Williams testified that Murray's car was at MJ's house BEFORE mj arrived home from Staples. Murray's car was seen arriving at MJ's property at 1am on security footage. It says this in one of the affidavits. So MJ arrived at his home some time after 1am.
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I remember that too about Murray being there before Michael arrived. Murray also said that Michael called him and told him to be there. Now I do not understand that part. If Murray was supposed to be there every night why would Michael call him and tell him to be there? Where did Michael call him from, Staples or the car? Maybe the dancers left Staples after Michael did, or did all personnel leave at the same time? This may account for the different time frames, or maybe people mean around 12:30 or 1:00 and not exactly 12:30 or 1:00.
 
Originally Posted by noirnoar
"The video shows Jackson coming home from rehearsal at around 12:30 AM. " But, wasn't reported back on June 2009, that MJJ left Staples at 1:30 AM?
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QuirkyDiana00;3313766 said:
TMZ must have their info wrong on the time MJ came home. Fans who were waiting outside the house that night stated that Murray came home before MJ. Michael Amir Williams also stated in court that it was his job to ensure that Murray was at the house before MJ arrived back home from rehearsal, and this would be the routine. MJ arrived home after 1am.

Williams was asked if Murray's car was there when MJ arrived back home from staples the last night:

DW: When you arrive, was Dr. Murray’s car there?
MAW: Yes it was.

(Williams rides in the same vehicle as MJ).
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<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iP9qDuhNhHc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This would mean the prosecution is incorrect too....Also, one of the bodyguards testified that the rehearsals finished sometime after 12:30. He didn't say that was the time they left. He said that was the time the rehearsals finished. And Bearden says he and Michael were one of the LAST to leave. Which means not everyone left at the same time right after rehearsals ended.
 
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Don't focus on the time error that much. Some systems if not manually corrected for daylight savings can show the time 1 hour off.
 
Ivy, time is a huge difference in this case. An error, needs to be corrected. Also, in 2009, daylight savings time began on Sunday, March 8 at 2 a.m. and ended on November 1 at same time. People had three months to get used to the one hour difference. It would not make sense.
 
I meant that they perhaps never changed the time if it needed a manual adjustment. For example I didn't change my car clock (yes I'm lazy) so for the last month it shows the time 1 hour off.

Plus can anyone explain to me what difference does arrival time of 12-1-2 AM makes? Michael's death happened at a several hours later time. Am I missing something here?
 
I forgot, this thread is about missing tapes, not the time....I just responded to what others brought up...I don't want to be accused of derailing threads again.
 
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