The Hoax Theory - Discussing Errors, Inconsistencies, Observations and Other Theories

[SoS]

If you believe he is still alive you HAVE TO accept that he has staged it himself.
As for people not 'protecting' him on June 25th, that must have been by his design, whether those people knew anything or not.

Well that's annother thing ... I'm still not sure what to believe which is why I'm here lol

I also doubt he would have women con him to such an extend.
Maybe when he was younger, but I think it's safe to guess he smartened up on that issue, maybe even to an extend where he doesn't trust any woman. Your view of him is too weak in my opinion. He is one tough cookie or he wouldn't have made it to 25. Don't judge a book by its cover.

Well I wasn't per se thinking 'con' as much as pretty much ''seductions'' and tricks of various sorts. Low lifes know how to study peoples' idiosyncracies. My POV would be from that of him being 'stuck' with whomever and all

of Michael's favorite books is "The 48 Laws of Power". You should read it, it might give you a sense of what he was interested in behind the mask.

Yes I read it and I did see that he liked it ... its probably helpful like a book can often be and i have no doubt he's a ''master manipulator'' because as a strategy for life, I'd imagine he probably felt he had to be, if he felt ''controlled'' ... he'd naturally be in some ways, 'controlling''....but its easy to slip into a 'toxic' game of all sorts of manipulations and as a strategy for navigating situationally is one thing...but stuck with a bunch of manipulators doesn't make being a master manipulator any more peaceful or tranquil for someone who all they really want to do is create imho.

Y'all please don't let it trigger you and please don't mind me, its just my way of working through thoughts but just remember that there's a thin line between intuition and imagination so I hope nobody's too triggered by just some thoughts ...which we've just never really discussed until now. I just appreciate the stimulating conversation and I believe its healthier to talk these 'oddities' out than to just dive into some facade of ''closure' when closure with so many open endings makes no sense.

Maybe we can eventually move on to another 'new' topic like the "bloody shirt" (which I believe looks to be hair dye) or the two packs of cigarettes one of them nearly or completely empty in the police report (who chain smokes in the scenario?) or why on earth did they depose Paris about Grace with all that salacious grilling as though it was completely relevant when Grace supposedly had been gone since Dec of 2008 and had absolutely nothing do with anything. And what about the ''kidnapped'' theory. That could theoretically be how those in his house let him down without this turning out to be orchestrated by him ... js

 

[Hamburglar]

Well that's annother thing ... I'm still not sure what to believe which is why I'm here lol

Well I wasn't per se thinking 'con' as much as pretty much ''seductions'' and tricks of various sorts. Low lifes know how to study peoples' idiosyncracies. My POV would be from that of him being 'stuck' with whomever and all

Yes I read it and I did see that he liked it ... its probably helpful like a book can often be and i have no doubt he's a ''master manipulator'' because as a strategy for life, I'd imagine he probably felt he had to be, if he felt ''controlled'' ... he'd naturally be in some ways, 'controlling''....but its easy to slip into a 'toxic' game of all sorts of manipulations and as a strategy for navigating situationally is one thing...but stuck with a bunch of manipulators doesn't make being a master manipulator any more peaceful or tranquil for someone who all they really want to do is create imho.

Y'all please don't let it trigger you and please don't mind me, its just my way of working through thoughts but just remember that there's a thin line between intuition and imagination so I hope nobody's too triggered by just some thoughts ...which we've just never really discussed until now. I just appreciate the stimulating conversation and I believe its healthier to talk these 'oddities' out than to just dive into some facade of ''closure' when closure with so open endings makes no sense.

Maybe we can eventually move on to another 'new' topic like the "bloody shirt" (which I believe looks to be hair dye) or the two packs of cigarettes one of them nearly or completely empty in the police report (who chain smokes in the scenario?) or why on earth did they depose Paris about Grace with all that salacious grilling as though it was completely relevant when Grace supposedly had been gone since Dec of 2008 and had absolutely nothing do with anything. And what about the ''kidnapped'' theory. That could theoretically be how those in his house let him down without this turning out to be orchestrated by him ... js

Very possible that the cigarettes were Michael's. He smoked. I know many like to deny that, but he smoked for sure.

I do not know what the kidnap theory would be like, can you elaborate?

I agree that the 'blood' on the shirt didn't look like blood. Hair dye is possible, I think it's theatre make-up, which was found in the same room. Probably because he disguised himself and made his skin dark again to be able to leave the house without being seen. Just my 2 cents but sure doesn't look like blood.

 

[LinLoveMJ]

If it would be a private thread, I would discuss with you, haha, Im too scared too talk about it, people irl say Im crazy already, so i stopped talking bout it, dont wanna be called a ..whatever...
My heart is broken in million peaces back then, its getting harder instead of easier. I always say to myself, he did it, he is free somewhere...he is still here...to get it easier on my mind to say he is not dead. But...on the other hand...its almost impossible, he is known all over the world, where should he hide, a deserted island? No one around? Be even more lonely? I have a lot to say, to ask, to discuss, to...everything...its a protection maybe for myself to think he is still here, cause im still heartbroken, to think he is dead brings up too many tears. Hmmm this dont make sense I think, well ok, I leave it at this then.

 

[SoS]

Very possible that the cigarettes were Michael's. He smoked. I know many like to deny that, but he smoked for sure.

I do not know what the kidnap theory would be like, can you elaborate?

I agree that the 'blood' on the shirt didn't look like blood. Hair dye is possible, I think it's theatre make-up, which was found in the same room. Probably because he disguised himself and made his skin dark again to be able to leave the house without being seen. Just my 2 cents but sure doesn't look like blood.

Re: bolded. Your evident sense of certainty is based on…?….?

As for theatre makeup I hadn’t thought of it and just as plausible I suppose although it appears to me more like a liquid saturated the fabric. The size also strikes me as more “petite” than MJ and more of a female style than masculine and I know MJ wore females’ clothing at times.

As for the “kidnap” theory, the POV is from a witness/fan who was in front of his house before the ambulance arrived: (video below)

 

[SoS]

If it would be a private thread, I would discuss with you, haha, Im too scared too talk about it, people irl say Im crazy already, so i stopped talking bout it, dont wanna be called a ..whatever...
My heart is broken in million peaces back then, its getting harder instead of easier. I always say to myself, he did it, he is free somewhere...he is still here...to get it easier on my mind to say he is not dead. But...on the other hand...its almost impossible, he is known all over the world, where should he hide, a deserted island? No one around? Be even more lonely? I have a lot to say, to ask, to discuss, to...everything...its a protection maybe for myself to think he is still here, cause im still heartbroken, to think he is dead brings up too many tears. Hmmm this dont make sense I think, well ok, I leave it at this then.

Yes. Would be great for it to be private! I’d love to hear your thoughts

 

[Hamburglar]

Re: bolded. Your evident sense of certainty is based on…?….?

As for theatre makeup I hadn’t thought of it and just as plausible I suppose although it appears to me more like a liquid saturated the fabric. The size also strikes me as more “petite” than MJ and more of a female style than masculine and I know MJ wore females’ clothing at times.

As for the “kidnap” theory, the POV is from a witness/fan who was in front of his house before the ambulance arrived: (video below)

My sense of certainty is based on the many signs among other things. He was photographed with a cigarette once in the BAD era. I know people act like that was a joke, but that would be a bad one. Michael always tried to be an example in public (hence why many fans refuse to believe he smoked), why would he risk kids picking up that habit by having him photographed with a cig when he doesn't even smoke?

He smoked weed, confirmed by multiple people. If he didn't smoke cigs it is not very common to smoke weed, you'd probably die coughing because your lungs aren't used to it and smoking weed is even heavier on your lungs than most cigarettes. He could have simply ate it as a brownie, or take oil. It gives the same effect without having to inhale smoke in your lungs which is hard for someone who never smoked and/or doesn't want to damage their lungs. Just makes zero sense.

Some people close to him have confirmed he smoked (don't ask me names, but I am sure that is to be found on the interwebs somewhere), but said he never did in public. If you are or were ever a smoker you'd realize why he would be chewing gum like crazy in public.

Paris was attacked on social media for smoking and how her dad would not approve of that. I can't for the life of me find that tweet or a reference to it other than other people remembering seeing she said something to that extend, but I am 100% sure she said he smoked himself (and I would even say she said 'like a chimney', but I might be confused by her tweet saying he cussed like a sailor, haha!).

His lungs are a dead giveaway. I always see people say he couldn't have smoked because of his voice. That is a strange assumption. I know first hand Adele smoked like a chimney because I smoked a cig or two with her (albeit a million years ago), then she went inside and on stage and blew us away with an amazing live performance. I have never heard her voice crack even once. But in Michael's case his voice did crack. It is very obvious during the HIStory tour, where a lot was lip-synced and the parts that were live you could hear him struggle to get air out of his lungs. Same with Madison Square Garden, he is struggling there.

If you look at the autopsy report, which I believe to be fake but holding some truths like (for example) the vitiligo, the lung problems listed were common for smokers (chronic lung inflammation, respiratory bronchiolitis, diffuse congestion and patchy hemorrhage of right and left lungs). Respiratory bronchiolitis is a smoker's disease: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_bronchiolitis. So it doesn't matter if you believe he really died (in that case you believe that autopsy report is real and he had indeed a smoker's disease) or if you believed he faked his death (in that case you have to assume he had control over the stuff listed in the report and why would he have a smoker's disease listed if he never smoked?).

So even though no one caught him on tape smoking, all the evidence points to him being a closeted smoker. He might have given up the habit by now, but I would say he definitely smoked around the trial in 2005, knowing what stress he had to deal with. Even if he had quit before, odds that he'd start again during that time are sky high. I think he smoked up to his alleged 'death' and might have quit after that but to me it is clear he was a smoker.

I have seen that video before, I see she is theorizing that he was kidnapped but doesn't really give arguments for that other than the events that we all know unfolded and could mean many things.

 

[wendijane]

ah , i don't think they are going to move it ..oh well, we can just mind read each other i guess lol

 

[Oldtimer]

My sense of certainty is based on the many signs among other things. He was photographed with a cigarette once in the BAD era. I know people act like that was a joke, but that would be a bad one. Michael always tried to be an example in public (hence why many fans refuse to believe he smoked), why would he risk kids picking up that habit by having him photographed with a cig when he doesn't even smoke?

He smoked weed, confirmed by multiple people. If he didn't smoke cigs it is not very common to smoke weed, you'd probably die coughing because your lungs aren't used to it and smoking weed is even heavier on your lungs than most cigarettes. He could have simply ate it as a brownie, or take oil. It gives the same effect without having to inhale smoke in your lungs which is hard for someone who never smoked and/or doesn't want to damage their lungs. Just makes zero sense.

Some people close to him have confirmed he smoked (don't ask me names, but I am sure that is to be found on the interwebs somewhere), but said he never did in public. If you are or were ever a smoker you'd realize why he would be chewing gum like crazy in public.

Paris was attacked on social media for smoking and how her dad would not approve of that. I can't for the life of me find that tweet or a reference to it other than other people remembering seeing she said something to that extend, but I am 100% sure she said he smoked himself (and I would even say she said 'like a chimney', but I might be confused by her tweet saying he cussed like a sailor, haha!).

His lungs are a dead giveaway. I always see people say he couldn't have smoked because of his voice. That is a strange assumption. I know first hand Adele smoked like a chimney because I smoked a cig or two with her (albeit a million years ago), then she went inside and on stage and blew us away with an amazing live performance. I have never heard her voice crack even once. But in Michael's case his voice did crack. It is very obvious during the HIStory tour, where a lot was lip-synced and the parts that were live you could hear him struggle to get air out of his lungs. Same with Madison Square Garden, he is struggling there.

If you look at the autopsy report, which I believe to be fake but holding some truths like (for example) the vitiligo, the lung problems listed were common for smokers (chronic lung inflammation, respiratory bronchiolitis, diffuse congestion and patchy hemorrhage of right and left lungs). Respiratory bronchiolitis is a smoker's disease: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_bronchiolitis. So it doesn't matter if you believe he really died (in that case you believe that autopsy report is real and he had indeed a smoker's disease) or if you believed he faked his death (in that case you have to assume he had control over the stuff listed in the report and why would he have a smoker's disease listed if he never smoked?).

So even though no one caught him on tape smoking, all the evidence points to him being a closeted smoker. He might have given up the habit by now, but I would say he definitely smoked around the trial in 2005, knowing what stress he had to deal with. Even if he had quit before, odds that he'd start again during that time are sky high. I think he smoked up to his alleged 'death' and might have quit after that but to me it is clear he was a smoker.

I have seen that video before, I see she is theorizing that he was kidnapped but doesn't really give arguments for that other than the events that we all know unfolded and could mean many things.

Lupus has a big part in effecting the lungs wasn't he diagnosed with that?

 

[Hamburglar]

Lupus has a big part in effecting the lungs wasn't he diagnosed with that?

He was, but no mention in the autopsy report.

I agree that his lungs suffered due to the Lupus, but the smoking didn't help either.

 

[Oldtimer]

He was, but no mention in the autopsy report.

I agree that his lungs suffered due to the Lupus, but the smoking didn't help either.

No definitely not just thought it may have contributed in some way.

 

[Hamburglar]

No definitely not just thought it may have contributed in some way.

Likely in a big way. Like I said, Adele used to smoke and she had no lung issues as far as I know, Michael definitely did. So the combination of smoking and Lupus I would say. Without the Lupus he might have never had any issues, but that is impossible to say for sure.

 

[Oldtimer]

Likely in a big way. Like I said, Adele used to smoke and she had no lung issues as far as I know, Michael definitely did. So the combination of smoking and Lupus I would say. Without the Lupus he might have never had any issues, but that is impossible to say for sure.

Very true

 

[SoS]

My sense of certainty is based on the many signs among other things. He was photographed with a cigarette

once in the BAD era. I know people act like that was a joke, but that would be a bad one. Michael always tried to be an example in public (hence why many fans refuse to believe he smoked), why would he risk kids picking up that habit by having him photographed with a cig when he doesn't even smoke?

He smoked weed, confirmed by multiple people. If he didn't smoke cigs it is not very common to smoke weed, you'd probably die coughing because your lungs aren't used to it and smoking weed is even heavier on your lungs than most cigarettes. He could have simply ate it as a brownie, or take oil. It gives the same effect without having to inhale smoke in your lungs which is hard for someone who never smoked and/or doesn't want to damage their lungs. Just makes zero sense.

Some people close to him have confirmed he smoked (don't ask me names, but I am sure that is to be found on the interwebs somewhere), but said he never did in public. If you are or were ever a smoker you'd realize why he would be chewing gum like crazy in public.

Paris was attacked on social media for smoking and how her dad would not approve of that. I can't for the life of me find that tweet or a reference to it other than other people remembering seeing she said something to that extend, but I am 100% sure she said he smoked himself (and I would even say she said 'like a chimney', but I might be confused by her tweet saying he cussed like a sailor, haha!).

His lungs are a dead giveaway. I always see people say he couldn't have smoked because of his voice. That is a strange assumption. I know first hand Adele smoked like a chimney because I smoked a cig or two with her (albeit a million years ago), then she went inside and on stage and blew us away with an amazing live performance. I have never heard her voice crack even once. But in Michael's case his voice did crack. It is very obvious during the HIStory tour, where a lot was lip-synced and the parts that were live you could hear him struggle to get air out of his lungs. Same with Madison Square Garden, he is struggling there.

If you look at the autopsy report, which I believe to be fake but holding some truths like (for example) the vitiligo, the lung problems listed were common for smokers (chronic lung inflammation, respiratory bronchiolitis, diffuse congestion and patchy hemorrhage of right and left lungs). Respiratory bronchiolitis is a smoker's disease: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_bronchiolitis. So it doesn't matter if you believe he really died (in that case you believe that autopsy report is real and he had indeed a smoker's disease) or if you believed he faked his death (in that case you have to assume he had control over the stuff listed in the report and why would he have a smoker's disease listed if he never smoked?).

So even though no one caught him on tape smoking, all the evidence points to him being a closeted smoker. He might have given up the habit by now, but I would say he definitely smoked around the trial in 2005, knowing what stress he had to deal with. Even if he had quit before, odds that he'd start again during that time are sky high. I think he smoked up to his alleged 'death' and might have quit after that but to me it is clear he was a smoker.

Signs and photographs are too subject to interpretation to lend "certainty" to such a degree imho

however, the point you made about how it would make a bad joke makes all the sense.

I've known people who aren't cig smokers who toke ganja. js

I don't know how to consider the autopsy report when it's inconclusive what's actual.

I realize you pointed out that he probly threw a few select ''truths'' in but which ones is such an open question it seems to me

 

[Hamburglar]

Signs and photographs are too subject to interpretation to lend "certainty" to such a degree imho

however, the point you made about how it would make a bad joke makes all the sense.

I've known people who aren't cig smokers who toke ganja. js

I don't know how to consider the autopsy report when it's inconclusive what's actual.

I realize you pointed out that he probly threw a few select ''truths'' in but which ones is such an open question it seems to me

Well I did say 'among other things'. But what I listed should be enough to be fair. I see no reason for his daughter to lie about it either.

 

[SoS]

I appreciate the convo bc I feel MUCH better after chopping it up although no one has addressed the question of why is it they grilled Paris about Grace with those salacious questions for which I have a theory but I think its off and I'd rather hear someone else's

Surely, we fans could be just as wrong as two left shoes but guessing gets the gears going

Perhaps bc its nearly Thrillerween that I'm feeling so nostalgic and "sensitive" about him out of the blue and my fears are a hair bit "dramatic'" but only a hair because we see how much helll he caught while he was here with us as wendyjane pointed out

I'm laughing at how concerned MJ makes us all lolol and with good reason. It breaks my heart every time I look back on the things that made him cry in any way whether on records or in public which you know he hated to do because of being naturally pretty "proud" as a man which is what I for one respected the most about him before during and after the OTW era when I was a teenager with the cover stuck to my wall. His innocent nature reminds me of my brother who would fulfill requests before they were even finished asking so hence my "projecting" so maybe I am over stating the magnitude probbly bc of not knowing he hasn't made any 'off' choices in private as in public - if of course he's alive.

Oh well on a rather random note..

I hope it also would be a bit cathartic and a bit of comic relief to you all after such intensity: (sorry if redundant for some here as I"ve done the "old folks" thing and told it a few times)

Soooo in 1979 having the eye candy of the Off the Wall album cover on my wall was the only thing I didn't out-grow from being a kid J5 fan in 1969 which is when I first heard them on the radio and tbh I feel a bit inherently "invested" in him from way back then...

.. considering I fell on my butt for him (I'm sure I'm the the first one to ever do it lol) I was 8 and whenever I'd hear this new song called, ABC on the kitchen radio, I had a whole dance routine

and so whilst slipping around the waxed kitchen in my socks and sweeping the floor whilst dancing to ABC; on the part where he goes, "sit down Girl!" , I'd lift up on the front of my feet and let my heals slip forward and land on my tush

and on, "no! get up girl!" I'd look up whilst rubbing my aching butt and go, "WHAAAT!!???" and I'd scramble up real fast

and on,

"SHOW ME WHAT YOU CAN DO!" I'd shimmy my shoulders through the apartment; I think after the third time it started feeling a bit "masochistic" so I stopped.

Unlike most OGs, I never saw them on Ed Sullivan or American Bandstand until 1970 when they were on ABS for the 2nd time

Even though I'd never seen him visually, I figured since I hurt my butt for the boy on the radio this must mean that we were "married" (until this 10 y/o boy named Tommy walked me home from the movie theatre) and besides, by then was singing, "Maria" ("Maria.....you were the ONLY one") it was over, but we could remain imaginary friends lol

but the J5 music was ALWAYS completely consuming, and both me and brother both sang all the parts lolol and at 13 I went to my first J5 concert (like being in heaven to be able to just be there Live; they were AMAZING to put it mildly) it was when the Commondors opened for them....it dawned on me it was my first time going on a "date" (I was 13) and at my next J5 concert I met Natalie Cole who was the opening act for them and was incredibly gracious toward some random teenage girls scourring the premesis to see if we could find the J5. She said, "I'm not the Jackson 5 but you can come on in" (to her tour bus in the parking lot)

and some few years later, by the time I'm just barely out of my teens and it had been a while since they toured, and I was into so many other Acts , I had outgrown the desire to go to concerts in general as I was more studious, quiet and getting into jazz and so by the time the Triump tour rolled around I wasn't willing to put myself through that crowd stuff and circumstances didn't lend to it in any case.

I felt ''guilty'' for not wanting to go because while I could never outgrow the music I just could no longer see myself in a sweaty crowd of screaming teenagers with hot sweat and mustiness lol and music blasting so loud you can barely hear it and everyone screaming so loud you can't hear yourself think.....

however, to make a longer story short, it turned out to be something that would happen by sheer "incidence" as a coworker from Madigaskar had run up to me at work and grabbed me and started shaking me saying she had an extra ticket to the Jacksons and her uncle can't go so if I know anyone who could use a ticket to let her know to which I told her that I'd go -- (was I really going to turn it down I mean c'mon) and she said they were going to be early so they could be up front... so not only do I wind up going, I'd even end up being up front near the stage and sooner than I expected was feeling too hot and sweaty and feeling clostrophobic and "trapped" in the crowd and I began to fall asleep on the slowest song in the repertoir because that sweltering hot crowd and the noise was wearing me out lol I felt like an old lady

so yes I was dozing off albeit with my eyes open lol as I allowed myself to be lullabyed by our man along with the crowd from no more than 10 feet away as the stages were about 6 feet off the ground in those days and I did wake up during the song and even though my being there was not of my orchestration it was unregrettable and unforgettable and an experience that all I can say to describe it is you really hadda be there and I'm just grateful to the Most High for so many present/surprises I never would have had the audacity to dream.

Anyone who had tickets to the first night of the Triumph concert at the Capital Center in 1981 in here?? They will tell you it was originally scheduled for 1 night which instantly sold out and was postponed and rescheduled for 2 weeks later and both concerts instantly sold out. Adriane Grant's book has the original single original concert date of Aug 1 which bugs me because it was Aug 15 and even though its erased from MJ's approved, documented history, (it was the original tour schedule) I won't ever forget it myself. That's ultimately why I pay more than the usual attention to all things that beg the questions WHY concerning his life, and death. I feel "invested" I guess you could say. (I wonder if there's a, Your MJ Journey type of thread???)

Thanks so much for the feedback and Happy Thrillerween eve eve

 

[SoS]

dp

 

[LinLoveMJ]

Its interesting...I didnt read all of the thread, but there are many strange things happening back then. Years back I use to go on the michaeljacksonhoaxforum, but I did not go there for a long time. also intersting things there. In one way I want to believe it, and maybe he even figured it out to do it. He is smart enough. But...how many people are in on it, the family? children? mother? doctor? others?
Thats a lot. a witness program? Where to hide with his famous face? A mask all the time? so many questions.
Other hand, he was not ok at the end, I thought he just gave up and was dying and he knew that. and I was angry, i thought you leave your kids behind, you gave your life in other peoples hands, they took over. I dont know, Im in yes he is here, other, no he is gone, what you guys all think what happened in those final days. Def not ok things around the house, where are the camera's, the tapes, money, who was in and out the house, covering up, murder, evidence gone, the ambulance, helicopter, hospital, family, and what else. Was he already somewhere else, and the body was not his, but then a lot of people knew, thats impossible. or not?
that so called doctor, calling prince in that room...Paris try to take her life...his mother in tears...they dont know then...
the memorial "show", was a ...strange? thing...
Boy...possible, not possible...thats the question.

 

[SoS]

Its interesting...I didnt read all of the thread, but there are many strange things happening back then. Years back I use to go on the michaeljacksonhoaxforum, but I did not go there for a long time. also intersting things there. In one way I want to believe it, and maybe he even figured it out to do it. He is smart enough. But...how many people are in on it, the family? children? mother? doctor? others?
Thats a lot. a witness program? Where to hide with his famous face? A mask all the time? so many questions.
Other hand, he was not ok at the end, I thought he just gave up and was dying and he knew that. and I was angry, i thought you leave your kids behind, you gave your life in other peoples hands, they took over. I dont know, Im in yes he is here, other, no he is gone, what you guys all think what happened in those final days. Def not ok things around the house, where are the camera's, the tapes, money, who was in and out the house, covering up, murder, evidence gone, the ambulance, helicopter, hospital, family, and what else. Was he already somewhere else, and the body was not his, but then a lot of people knew, thats impossible. or not?
that so called doctor, calling prince in that room...Paris try to take her life...his mother in tears...they dont know then...
the memorial "show", was a ...strange? thing...
Boy...possible, not possible...thats the question.

Same, and since all these things that looked like 'games' or ''ruse'' or ''hoax'' or whatever... was causing us to have to ask millions of questions caused me to conclude that he MUST be behind it all. I came to the same conclusion about the music. If we have to keep asking is it him is it not him, finding ourselves playing some form of "peek-a-boo' with the music the simple answer is that we actually know his voice without a doubt whenever its his voice which is why the French fans won their class action suit or at least I believe they won right? But in the case of a whole "DEATH" I just have a hard time with the whole topic. I've never read the "autopsy" because it seems pointless I mean why bother if you can't trust it (his body - not his body) and if he is all behind all this all I can say is wow, he's even lonlier than I ever thought and so rich he couldn't think of a better way to spend his time or money than to throw it away on a "hoax"?! That part = too hard to believe as he seemed to me to be a man on a pretty serious mission to help bring in God's Kingdom imho, up to then because imho that's ultimately what all true "light workers" are here for. jmho But then, he was showing us himself as the "light man" wasn't he? Hm. Back to the drawing board!

 

[SoS]

Well I did say 'among other things'. But what I listed should be enough to be fair. I see no reason for his daughter to lie about it either.

Have you been able to i.d. any particular aspects of the autopsy that you find helpful for being true? I realize the vitiligo is in there but it seems the one thing I quickly scanned specifically for (because I can't stand reading those things) which I did not see and I hope you can correct me if you know, and that is, the mark on the side of his face where his mole used to be.? I never could get anyone to tell me one way or another. I always seem to get "ghosted" on it. Those of us who go as far back as, Forever Michael know it well I'm sure. It was clear as day in the close up pic of his 15 or 17 or so y/o beautiful face.

Anyone?

 

[wendijane]

I feel "invested" I guess you could say.

Same. it is hard not to be when the man has been in our lifes for that long. so for me 14 years old n a half , 14th nov 1991 - 7 :30 there ya go i remember the exact time we 'met' and ha! it's like a contract haha if you are a serious supporter cause fandom can be fickle.
but also hard to leave ~if all dots are connected ~ what i mean is .... you can't just 'insert' yourself into ' other community / fandoms' if ' things seem 'sour' or ' still ' or ' boring' that is not a good idea at all. that idea cause an unexplained pain. alot of it , if not all of it ~has to do with the time you chose to spend with the man. i really believe that. so our hearts are still unrested i think.

We are talking years of admiration & support for michael. and for some people all their life, i only 'knew' him from 1991 and i never tried to change that or say i 'loved' him when i was a child because that simply wasn't the truth. he didn't come into my life untill he messaged us with BoW
[For so many , it is like a mind marriage in some ways. the love /care is most def. embedded ,]
For some , this type of love can and does outlast a real relationship in some cases .]

You can't just ' chuck decades away' so yeah i agree with you @SoS invested is a perfect word. You explained that so perfectly. @LinLoveMJ do you feel me on that ? does what i said make me wrong / weird/ typical groupie . i would hate to be seen as that would break my heart. Being seen as weird is fine though haha

(I wonder if there's a, Your MJ Journey type of thread???)

What do you mean @SoS some kind of supertanker [ i meant separate just in general thread haha .]..where everyone is at in their journey with michael? ......[ silly auto correct but i'll keep it in, cause it is funny to me !!]
If you mean that kinda thread ...well i think it would be amazing, beautiful. since these journeys are so personal that is the thing. people come , people stay and some stay for the long haul. you pick. you choose. lol its like , ...... well, fandom or rather being a supporter to an artist can be born out of no where and it brings feelings and those feelings ,/connection ~ strong feelings are usually born out of the greatest love story when it comes from a pure, true, unconditional place - that is when it becomes solid and very real. and that is when it can last a life time. right ladies?
a real love. that means no sex , no groupie stuff - sorry i don't mean to go there. but it does and like so many others here, this man shaped me as a person. was a huge part of my childhood.ok i am so offtopic but i don't want this beautiful person who i cared for so dear to be dead. i don't.
he taught me unconditional love, and the value of that - whilst others around me in my life were not. I don't think you can throw away such valuable life teachings as that Sos. can you ?

Thanks so much for the feedback and Happy Thrillerween eve eve

I always love to read from you . So glad you are here @SoS love you

@LinLoveMJ you too. love you

 

[zinniabooklover]

The Soul connection

I've written this 'reflection' here... http://www.mjjcommunity.com/blog/our-soul-connection I would love to get some 'reflections' to this 'topic' here too and that's why I started this thread :blush: What is it that draws you to here? What is it that draws you to Michael? Is it the...

www.mjjcommunity.com

 

[LinLoveMJ]

Same. it is hard not to be when the man has been in our lifes for that long. so for me 14 years old n a half , 14th nov 1991 - 7 :30 there ya go i remember the exact time we 'met' and ha! it's like a contract haha if you are a serious supporter cause fandom can be fickle.
but also hard to leave ~if all dots are connected ~ what i mean is .... you can't just 'insert' yourself into ' other community / fandoms' if ' things seem 'sour' or ' still ' or ' boring' that is not a good idea at all. that idea cause an unexplained pain. alot of it , if not all of it ~has to do with the time you chose to spend with the man. i really believe that. so our hearts are still unrested i think.

We are talking years of admiration & support for michael. and for some people all their life, i only 'knew' him from 1991 and i never tried to change that or say i 'loved' him when i was a child because that simply wasn't the truth. he didn't come into my life untill he messaged us with BoW
[For so many , it is like a mind marriage in some ways. the love /care is most def. embedded ,]
For some , this type of love can and does outlast a real relationship in some cases .]

You can't just ' chuck decades away' so yeah i agree with you @SoS invested kis a perfect word. You explained that so perfectly. @LinLoveMJ do you feel me on that ? does what i said make me wrong / weird/ typical groupie . i would hate to be seen as that would break my heart. Being seen as weird is fine though haha

What do you mean @SoS some kind of supertanker [ i meant separate just in general thread haha .]..where everyone is at in their journey with michael? ......[ silly auto correct but i'll keep it in, cause it is funny to me !!]
If you mean that kinda thread ...well i think it would be amazing, beautiful. since these journeys are so personal that is the thing. people come , people stay and some stay for the long haul. you pick. you choose. lol its like , ...... well, fandom or rather being a supporter to an artist can be born out of no where and it brings feelings and those feelings ,/connection ~ strong feelings are usually born out of the greatest love story when it comes from a pure, true, unconditional place - that is when it becomes solid and very real. and that is when it can last a life time. right ladies?
a real love. that means no sex , no groupie stuff - sorry i don't mean to go there. but it does and like so many others here, this man shaped me as a person. was a huge part of my childhood.ok i am so offtopic but i don't want this beautiful person who i cared for so dear to be dead. i don't.
he taught me unconditional love, and the value of that - whilst others around me in my life were not. I don't think you can throw away such valuable life teachings as that Sos. can you ?

I always love to read from you . So glad you are here @SoS love you

@LinLoveMJ you too. love you

Love you too.

Yes, you are right and not weird
Michael is with me since I was 10/11, im now 55, so about my whole life, teaching me, helping me, drag me out of that well every time, admiring him, well all of it. and it does feel like a kind of relationship...in my mind. teaching me about the word 'love', what does it mean, I learned it from him and not my parents or family or who ever. well, lots to say about this, my feelings, my eh...whats the word...I sometimes feel I am crazy,childish, get a life, hang on to tight, all that shit. I just love him, really love, not the entertainer, (yes ofcourse that too) but michael himself. (am I going too far...I dont know..?)
I just cant eccept he is dead. (we go too far off topic lol)
Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me, by not accepting, that i see strange things and believe he could have faked his death. Its always a possibility, never say never, especially with michael, he wants to leave? He just does it. since that terrible day I was never 100% sure he is gone. Maybe cause I dont want it to be true, maybe cause I thought..hmmm it is all very strange, I mean..a witness program could have worked couldnt it?? I truly hope so, that he is free and happy. Wherever he is.

 

[wendijane]

The Soul connection

I've written this 'reflection' here... http://www.mjjcommunity.com/blog/our-soul-connection I would love to get some 'reflections' to this 'topic' here too and that's why I started this thread :blush: What is it that draws you to here? What is it that draws you to Michael? Is it the...

www.mjjcommunity.com

Oh zin. Mind blown. Fandom is a strange thing. [ i am always questioning why]

 

[wendijane]

Love you too.

Yes, you are right and not weird

I had to derail the thread with mush i am so sorry lol this is why i don't talk this way lol

Michael is with me since I was 10/11, im now 55,

See. i think that is truly beautiful and something is there and lin ,if you don't mind me saying - it's me observing , you have elements of m when we are all in chat. that carefree . lovely nature - So yeah there is def. that ' we are products of our childhood' i truly , really believe this.

so about my whole life, teaching me, helping me, drag me out of that well every time, admiring him, well all of it.

do it amazingly you truly do

and it does feel like a kind of relationship...

i wonder if i can pick a better word for this um

in my mind.

then it would be a spiritual connection. this stuff can go so deep when people think about it

teaching me about the word 'love', what does it mean,

i get this

I learned it from him and not my parents or family or who ever.

i get this so much. i was thinking, i was not born with unconditional love ... i googled
Does unconditional love come naturally?


You may ask yourself: is it possible to fall in love with someone unconditionally, and to keep loving them in an unconditional way? And the answer is: absolutely! Unconditional love is not something that happens naturally and without effort, though. It is an unconditional positive regard for the life of another person.
So he taught us this, so it just is natural that we would regard his life too. all without ever meeting , but still it is all there. the thought and the moral of the story basically.. the foundations of his teaching on the subject of it.

well, lots to say about this, my feelings, my eh...whats the word...I sometimes feel I am crazy,childish, get a life, hang on to tight, all that shit.

No you are a true beautiful heart to be around. Your energy its beautiful

I just love him, really love,

i know i can tell , really feel

not the entertainer,

This in spades. i get this ten billion per cent. i understand this over and over.

(yes ofcourse that too)

mm respect their work but know that it is a job.

but michael himself. (am I going too far...I dont know..?)

Nah , cause that is my language lin too

I just cant eccept he is dead. (we go too far off topic lol)

oh baby. i know. i .. me too.

Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me, by not accepting, that i see strange things and believe he could have faked his death. Its always a possibility, never say never, especially with michael, he wants to leave? He just does it. since that terrible day I was never 100% sure he is gone.

Yeah i have a ten billion Katrillin why nots and what ifs and well ..cool maybe . and i like it that way. i was ashamed / defensive though at first when i first came back here into this thread , but now , it feels right.

Maybe cause I dont want it to be true, maybe cause I thought..hmmm it is all very strange, I mean..a witness program could have worked couldnt it?? I truly hope so, that he is

I believe so. that business aint my business lol meaning - there are no limits on that level. i want to think that way too. i can't see any harm. I am never a one to wanna run to the guy , wanna touch or unturf him yet if he wants us to ' play' as Sos says he might ...yeah ! i am there.
girl, if i was transparent i hope you wouldn't back away lol be like , "wendi you are loony woman! stop ! silly child now stop " lol

free and happy.

Thats all it is.

Wherever he is.

because at the end of this day n the next n the next after and for all eternity~ its all for unconditional love. i'll 'love' him till my dying day i have proved this with loving till he is 64 - well we all passed that test. Come on eternity ~bring it on At this point, i think only mj fans/supporters know what eternal unconditional love is.

 

[LinLoveMJ]

I had to derail the thread with mush i am so sorry lol this is why i don't talk this way lol

See. i think that is truly beautiful and something is there and lin ,if you don't mind me saying - it's me observing , you have elements of m when we are all in chat. that carefree . lovely nature - So yeah there is def. that ' we are products of our childhood' i truly , really believe this.

do it amazingly you truly do

i wonder if i can pick a better word for this um

then it would be a spiritual connection. this stuff can go so deep when people think about it

i get this

i get this so much. i was thinking, i was not born with unconditional love ... i googled
Does unconditional love come naturally?


You may ask yourself: is it possible to fall in love with someone unconditionally, and to keep loving them in an unconditional way? And the answer is: absolutely! Unconditional love is not something that happens naturally and without effort, though. It is an unconditional positive regard for the life of another person.
So he taught us this, so it just is natural that we would regard his life too. all without ever meeting , but still it is all there. the thought and the moral of the story basically.. the foundations of his teaching on the subject of it.

No you are a true beautiful heart to be around. Your energy its beautiful

i know i can tell , really feel

This in spades. i get this ten billion per cent. i understand this over and over.

mm respect their work but know that it is a job.

Nah , cause that is my language lin too

oh baby. i know. i .. me too.

Yeah i have a ten billion Katrillin why nots and what ifs and well ..cool maybe . and i like it that way. i was ashamed / defensive though at first when i first came back here into this thread , but now , it feels right.

I believe so. that business aint my business lol meaning - there are no limits on that level. i want to think that way too. i can't see any harm. I am never a one to wanna run to the guy , wanna touch or unturf him yet if he wants us to ' play' as Sos says he might ...yeah ! i am there.
girl, if i was transparent i hope you wouldn't back away lol be like , "wendi you are loony woman! stop ! silly child now stop " lol

Thats all it is.

because at the end of this day n the next n the next after and for all eternity~ its all for unconditional love. i'll 'love' him till my dying day i have proved this with loving till he is 64 - well we all passed that test. Come on eternity ~bring it on At this point, i think only mj fans/supporters know what eternal unconditional love is.

thank you for your reply and kind words, you brought me to tears.
Not only cause you kinda see me, also let me see I am ok, not crazy, Im alright.

Relationship..a connection then...
Yes its spiritual, I cant explain. feel a connect, a line, Well I dont know how to say it all. how to express.
Gosh I can talk hours about all of it.

anyway...on topic again...
What you all think about it now.

 

[The MJJ Library]

Can someone send me the 2 different ambulance videos that are apparently different from each other? I can't find them anywhere.

 

[SoS]

Same. it is hard not to be when the man has been in our lifes for that long. so for me 14 years old n a half , 14th nov 1991 - 7 :30 there ya go i remember the exact time we 'met' and ha! it's like a contract haha if you are a serious supporter cause fandom can be fickle.

Sorry for the delayed response! ...and I know we're O/T so perhaps we can take this to that wonderful 'soul connection' thread but I didn't want to leave this hanging because I had to disappear for a bit
and my quote function isn't operating for me these days so I tried to select and bold then do the little quote thingy...so I hope it works and doesn't turn out all jumbled looking

as for Nov 14, sorry if I missed it, but I think I missed what happened Nov 14, 1991, was it the first time you heard a song or saw a video or was it your b'day party or ....sorry I missed it; I just love these stories and I missed that part.

For some , this type of love can and does outlast a real relationship in some cases .]

Haha sad but true. Real relationships are such a two-way street whereas we can love our version of MJ in our one-way-street sort of way lol (Love is a two-way street?)

@SoS invested is a perfect word. You explained that so perfectly.

ah THANKS wendyjane, I appreciate knowing someone 'gets' me

What do you mean @SoS some kind of supertanker [ i meant separate just in general thread haha If you mean that kinda thread ...well i think it would be amazing, beautiful. since these journeys are so personal......

Yes, actually. I love stories of when people first saw m, or when he stood out for them for the first time, that sort of thing since I feel like one of the 'originals' and my story is so (to me) unique.

well, fandom or rather being a supporter to an artist can be born out of no where and it brings feelings and those feelings ,/connection ~

Yes being a supporter of an artist does bring about feelings of connection; I believe its more a connection with the Divine Source of Life and Self and (to me) the artists' courage and freedom of expression is a catalyst for that connection, at least for me.

strong feelings are usually born out of the greatest love story when it comes from a pure, true, unconditional place - that is when it becomes solid and very real. and that is when it can last a life time. right ladies?

I agree. I think life caused me to fully examine what that feeling of unconditional love is, as I really like/prefer to understand my feelings so I become SOoo analytical about it all, and I have to repeat myself about it being because its a one-way-street ... because when it comes to people in the public eye we don't know 'conditions' until after we've dealt with them one-on-one imho because that's when their humanity 'tests' our 'conditions' just like our families do lol which I say based on the numbers of celebs I've met or known

a real love. that means no sex , no groupie stuff - sorry i don't mean to go there. but it does and like so many others here, this man shaped me as a person.

Yes me too wendyjane and I think that's the difference between fans who can sit back and enjoy the music for what it is, the dancing, the magazine covers, album covers, vs. fans who have been 'changed' in some way as a person by someone they see as a fellow-person and not just a 'symbol' of some sort

was a huge part of my childhood.

Yes mine too wj. Also ended up being a literal pain in my *** (from my ABC routine) but a good pain! lol

ok i am so offtopic but i don't want this beautiful person who i cared for so dear to be dead. i don't.

Nor do I, however I've lost so many that I love that I would be able to accept it if it was indeed 'the final curtain' and its so hard to tell if we're 'gaslighting' ourselves or what

he taught me unconditional love, and the value of that - whilst others around me in my life were not.

I think it goes back to the reason MJ gave in many of his earlier interviews and that reason he gave for why he did what he did (and the way he did it), was to offer them, 'escapism' (from all these conditional folks in our lives...ie., 'leave that 9 to 5 up on a shelf and just enjoy yourself')

don't think you can throw away such valuable life teachings as that Sos. can you ?

I think its impossible to throw away any teachings that have changed one for the better whether they outlive us or we outlive them. Michael and many of the Motown acts did that for a whole generation and many other great prodigies and artists which is why I absolutely love all of the art forms, always something to expand you as a person.

I always love to read from you . So glad you are here @SoS love you

I absolutely feel the exact same way when I see your posts in any thread wj, you're like that familiar face that causes a person to relax and feel at home and I absolutely love you too and thank you for your patience with reading my random 'books' and for being so generous with your neighborly praise! Its aways all about L.O.V.E. for us who LOVE love!

 

[SoS]

Yes, you are right and not weird

100% AGREE

Michael is with me since I was 10/11, im now 55, so about my whole life, teaching me, helping me, drag me out of that well every time, admiring him, well all of it. and it does feel like a kind of relationship...in my mind. teaching me about the word 'love', what does it mean, I learned it from him and not my parents or family or who ever.

This is so touching to my soul. I can't lie and say not my family because I've felt very loved in my life in general, however, I really feel this what you're saying too. So moving to read. Thank you

well, lots to say about this, my feelings, my eh...whats the word...I sometimes feel I am crazy,childish, get a life, hang on to tight, all that shit. I just love him, really love, not the entertainer, (yes ofcourse that too) but michael himself. (am I going too far...I dont know..?)

I believe the things expressed by the few represent the larger population who don't express it and no its not crazy, childish, get a life because a LOT of ppl feel that way and to me its really normal, no different than when you see a family playing in the park and you feel love for them or the children or whatever even without ever meeting them.

I just cant eccept he is dead. (we go too far off topic lol)

I believe it would be a lot easier if a strong sense of closure came along with the horrible news like with Whitney, Aretha, BobbiChristina, Cicely Tysen...I mean death is death, just a part of life, but with MJ it seems more like, death is ... an endless question

Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me, by not accepting, that i see strange things and believe he could have faked his death.

Your mind and at least 30,000 other fans' minds lol

Its always a possibility, never say never, especially with michael,

AGREE! There is absolutely nothing I would put passed him, nothing at all

he wants to leave? He just does it. since that terrible day I was never 100% sure he is gone. Maybe cause I dont want it to be true, maybe cause I thought..hmmm it is all very strange,

That's the whole thing. Other artists just die and be dead, but MJ .......noooooo..........he's gotta die and still be clownin' around lol

I mean..a witness program could have worked couldnt it?? I truly hope so, that he is free and happy. Wherever he is.

This. I vote for this theory at the end of the day. Somehow it doesn't seem to be as 'strict' as other situations tho, where they have to disappear without a trace or something like that?...

 

[SoS]

Can someone send me the 2 different ambulance videos that are apparently different from each other? I can't find them anywhere.

I'll help you look for them ....

 

[The MJJ Library]

I'll help you look for them ....

Thanks