The Impact of MJ's Musical Decisions on His Career and Popularity

During the BAD era he seemed to back away from this work ethic and his presence lessened with each release from there on out

How so when on Bad he wrote all the songs bar two? How so when he broke up with Quincy exactly to have more creative control? How so when his subsequent albums, Dangerous and HIStory, are two of his most personal albums?
 
How so when on Bad he wrote all the songs bar two? How so when he broke up with Quincy exactly to have more creative control? How so when his subsequent albums, Dangerous and HIStory, are two of his most personal albums?

I wasn't saying that the quality of his work declined, just the amount of music he released.
 
I think a lot of people tend to compartmentalize Michael Jackson's work. The Jacksons are always separated from his core Epic albums, as are his Motown releases and Jackson 5 stuff. It's all the same guy, but there are many listeners who know little of MJ beyond the core albums Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad and Dangerous.

Musically, he was so much more than those 4 and when you put it all together and include the many collaborations he was part of (Dave Mason, 2 charting Diana Ross singles on which his voice is super prominent, Rockwell, McCartney, Stevie Wonder...not to mention singles by Rebbie, Jermaine, Janet, Latoya...) you gain a better understanding of and appreciation for just how prolific, versatile and respected he was.

During the BAD era he seemed to back away from this work ethic and his presence lessened with each release from there on out which I think affected his career. Or maybe it indicated that he was burnt out. The slower pace of his solo output, impossibly high expectations based on previous successes and a lack of tour support in America while his image was drowning in negative press didn't help.

Whatever it was, he created one of the most amazing bodies of work.

Exactly! I hate that people want to have particularly way of seeing him. Why not appreciate his whole body of work.

Motown early period -
All Jackson 5/solo albums

Classic period -
The Jacksons
Goin Places
Destiny
Off The Wall


Commercial period -
Triumph
Thriller
Victory
Bad
2300 Jackson Street


Introspective period -
Dangerous
HiStory
Blood On The Dance


Later period -
Invincible
 
Worth mentioning too that between Thriller and Bad we had Victory which "only" got to #4. Don't know if its relevant or not to our conversation but we kind of overlooked it, and the Victory tour. Album did OK (number 4) Tour did well. Shows that people werent just buying based on popularity with Michaels name attached.

Then he blew us out of the water with that next album he brought out. whatever it was called :D

That album was called 'Naughty'
 
Thriller wasn't really his "peak". Maybe in album sales. But Bad had 5 #1s and the BWT was much more successful than the VT. In fact, as I've mentioned before, BoW is the most successful single MJ's ever put out. His HWT still holds the record for the most attended tour. I hate it when people exaggerate the success of Thriller. BoW is as known as Billie Jean here in Pakistan to a lot of people. In fact, more people know his 90s songs which a lot of Americans think flopped. US or UK isn't the only big country ya know.

Moreover, I was playing Who Is It the other day in my car and one of my friends immediately asked me like "Is that MJ?"
I was like "Yeah, how did you know?"
He said that the music felt like his - and MJ never made that kinda music in the 80s.. Just saying lol.

How is Thriller's success exaggerated when it was the top selling album on the planet for 37 weeks straight, thats like 10 months, and then reclaimed the top spot yet again in 1984

7 top 10 singles

And the videos were ruling at the very top of the charts, people around the world are still performing the choreography from the Thriller video to this day


Every move he made during Thriller was as good as gold

He had real life LA street gang menbers follow his leas in that Beat It video

There was nothing about those years that were exaggerated and Im sure Michael felt that way too

Thriller wound up being his apex when it should not have been

Those 5 #1 singles from BAD resulted from the stature he built for himself years before
 
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Those 5 #1 singles from BAD resulted from the stature he built for himself years before

So your point is basically that Thriller is everything because it was the biggest selling album of all times and now you even refuse to give his subsequent albums due credit for their own achievements claiming that they were down to Thriller's success?

The first music I ever heard from Michael was the Bad album. That's what made me a fan. I did not know the Thriller album until later. I did not know nor care that Michael had the best selling album of all times. That was not the basis of my fandom, I simply loved the songs on Bad, period. I am sure many people felt the same about that album - or about Dangerous, or HIStory or Invincible if those were the first albums they heard from Michael. And Bad is still very popular - his second most popular album after Thriller in terms of plays on Spotify (actually not very far behind Thriller), his other studio album besides Thriller that still regularly charts and so on. So your theory that people bought The Way You Make Me Feel, Dirty Diana or Man in the Mirror because they liked Thriller makes no sense. Someone who likes Thriller and only Thriller will listen to Thriller not Dirty Diana. The Bad album is a strong and popular album on its own.

I am sorry if you cannot look past sales numbers and they became such a central element in your jugdement of music that you basically reduce Michael to a one-album artist because his other albums did not sell 20+ million copies in the US.
 
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I agree with respect77 100%

Im also a fan since Bad in 87 and got around to thriller later


BBD you shouldnt feel obligated to say that Thriller is the be all and end all just because statistics "prove" it to be. It shoud be only of you think it is yourself. Thats the beauty of music.

And BAD destroys Thriller anyways ?
 
I wish I could have around to experience the BAD era. During that time we had a fantastic album, Michael's best tour and Moonwalker. Why did I have to be born in 1988? I just missed it!
 
So your point is basically that Thriller is everything because it was the biggest selling album of all times and now you even refuse to give his subsequent albums due credit for their own achievements claiming that they were down to Thriller's success?

The first music I ever heard from Michael was the Bad album. That's what made me a fan. I did not know the Thriller album until later. I did not know nor care that Michael had the best selling album of all times. That was not the basis of my fandom, I simply loved the songs on Bad, period. I am sure many people felt the same about that album - or about Dangerous, or HIStory or Invincible if those were the first albums they heard from Michael. And Bad is still very popular - his second most popular album after Thriller in terms of plays on Spotify (actually not very far behind Thriller), his other studio album besides Thriller that still regularly charts and so on. So your theory that people bought The Way You Make Me Feel, Dirty Diana or Man in the Mirror because they liked Thriller makes no sense. Someone who likes Thriller and only Thriller will listen to Thriller not Dirty Diana. The Bad album is a strong and popular album on its own.

I am sorry if you cannot look past sales numbers and they became such a central element in your jugdement of music that you basically reduce Michael to a one-album artist because his other albums did not sell 20+ million copies in the US.

Im not just focusing on the sales numbers, and I never tried to compare all his albums ti each other. I have them all, bought them the day they were released, just as eager to purchase Bad as anyone

Im pointing out the fact, Michael was 29 years of age when he released BAD, and if he would have maintained his following in North America, that would have carried the momentum for all of his following albums to sell more than what they did and BAD was in the greatest of position to outsell Thriller, it was all there for it to happen...He had the talent, the foundation, the stature, and public support to do it, especially after being one of the main influences on forming USA for AFRICA when co writing We Are The World with Lionel Richie

He was the leading voice in all of music at that point
 
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Thriller's success IS exaggerated, especially by critics so that they could downplay MJ's later, more artistic work. I've already given you examples where MJ proved "statistically" that he could top Thriller's success - not sales-wise because he was being shredded in the US where Thriller sold the most, but on a worldwide basis.
I'm 18 btw and I wasn't even born in 1991 yet my favorite album is Dangerous :p. Black or White was my first "English" song the second one was Smack That by Akon (don't judge :p)
 
Im not just focusing on the sales numbers, and I never tried to compare all his albums ti each other. I have them all, bought them the day they were released, just as eager to purchase Bad as anyone

Im pointing out the fact, Michael was 29 years of age when he released BAD, and if he would have maintained his following in North America, that would have carried the momentum for all of his following albums to sell more than what they did and BAD was in the greatest of position to outsell Thriller, it was all there for it to happen...He had the talent, the foundation, the stature, and public support to do it, especially after being one of the main influences on forming USA for AFRICA when co writing We Are The World with Lionel Richie

He was the leading voice in all of music at that point

Dangerous outsold Bad overall by 1 million records or so. In fact it sold twice as fast. 7 million copies in the US in 2 months. It was going to come very close to Thriller I think. Black or White was THE bomb. My dad still has memories from that period, everyone was imitating him lol with that white button down over a white T and those black pants.
His Superbowl performance broke records too. So did his interview with Oprah. The only reason I think Dangerous didn't reach Thriller is because of the '93 accusations. That was a painful period for MJ. Or maybe the forced campaign of the media and music critics to promote Nevermind AND trash Dangerous.
 
Dangerous outsold Bad overall by 1 million records or so. In fact it sold twice as fast. 7 million copies in the US in 2 months. It was going to come very close to Thriller I think. Black or White was THE bomb. My dad still has memories from that period, everyone was imitating him lol with that white button down over a white T and those black pants.
His Superbowl performance broke records too. So did his interview with Oprah. The only reason I think Dangerous didn't reach Thriller is because of the '93 accusations. That was a painful period for MJ. Or maybe the forced campaign of the media and music critics to promote Nevermind AND trash Dangerous.


how many copies did Bad sell during its initial run from 1987-1989......25 million

how many copies did Dangerous sell during hits initial run from 1991-1993.....20 million

the only reason Michael did the interview with Oprah was because he was seeking to boost sales of Dangerous, particularly in America.....

the Super Bowl performance was awesome, and Will You Be There is my favorite song by Michael since the 90s.......

Dangerous should have received more critical acclaim than it did, History was going to be an album of all new songs until Michael changed his mind and featured a double disc of new songs and his classic songs w/the goal of reclaiming the audience he lost 8 years prior

Earth Song was one of his all time greatest recordings......love that song and always will
 
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Hey BBD...
As Psychoniff posted above there are many and varied ways to look at MJ's legacy and his career.
Yes thriller was undeniable but the commercial success of that album doesn't define him.
Nothing was ever going to out sell it as has been proven since.
It is an historically important album but I am not one who judges MJ by it.
If someone asked my what MJ should I listen to first or what album best defines him I would say Dangerous. Yes History has four absolutely incredible songs on it and some other great ones but Dangerous to me is the album that best summarizes MJ's greatness.
Musically eclectic, Lyrically powerful, Sonically incredible and it combined the funkiness and energy of MJ's earlier work with the more introspective and outspoken political artist he became during the 90's.
I still think to this day it is the greatest album I have ever heard.
 
Im pointing out the fact, Michael was 29 years of age when he released BAD, and if he would have maintained his following in North America, that would have carried the momentum for all of his following albums to sell more than what they did and BAD was in the greatest of position to outsell Thriller, it was all there for it to happen...

Repeat: Just because an album sells big it is not a guarantee for an artist's next albums to repeat that success, in fact that rarely, if ever, happens no matter if an artist relies on the same formula as on the best seller or does just the opposite. And that has several reasons which have been mentioned above but you keep ignoring all those factors.

There were examples brought to you about artists who had a great seller yet they couldn't repeat it with their next albums. And those examples was big stars and MJ's peers such as Prince or Madonna. In reply to keep your theory alive you turned Madonna into an R&B artist and tried to base an argument on that (false) premise. OK, let's see someone then who is definitely not an R&B artist, who never had plastic surgery, who never had allegations levelled against him, who did nothing to lose his core audience, who is white and who always remained America's darling in terms of reputation: Bruce Springsteen.

Born in the USA (1984) was his best selling album with 15 million copies sold in the USA. Besides Thriller and Purple Rain it was another blockbuster album of the early to mid 80s. Springsteen was the all-American guy who America just loved. How many copies do you think Springsteen's next album sold in 1987? 3 million. Then until 2002 he never released any album that sold more than 1 million in the US. In 2002 he released an album which sold 2 million. Since then he had one more album that sold 1 million and nothing else he released went even platinum.

He was never ripped apart from his supposed core R&B audience since he was never R&B. He never planted stories about himself in the media, never did plastic surgery, the media never turned against him, the formula of his music did not change (he's the kind of artist who always does basically the same kind of music) yet his sales dropped dramatically between his best seller and his next album and he could never go near the success of Born in the USA again. Another example: George Michael - Faith (1987), sold 10 million copies in the US. His next album Listen Without Prejudice Vol. 1 (1990) sold only 2 million copies, then his next album Older (1996) 1 million copies and he never had any more platinum albums in the US.

It's just a more common thing to happen to even big name artists than you acknowledge - regardless of an artist's musical or PR strategy or race.

Im not just focusing on the sales numbers

Sorry, but you VERY much seem to be focused on sales numbers. You talk about nothing else but sales when judging his albums and judging MJ's career. All you go on about is Thriller, Thriller, Thriller - because it was his best selling album.
 
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how many copies did Bad sell during its initial run from 1987-1989......25 million

how many copies did Dangerous sell during hits initial run from 1991-1993.....20 million

the only reason Michael did the interview with Oprah was because he was seeking to boost sales of Dangerous, particularly in America.....

the Super Bowl performance was awesome, and Will You Be There is my favorite song by Michael since the 90s.......

Dangerous should have received more critical acclaim than it did, History was going to be an album of all new songs until Michael changed his mind and featured a double disc of new songs and his classic songs w/the goal of reclaiming the audience he lost 8 years prior

Earth Song was one of his all time greatest recordings......love that song and always will

Like I said the '93 allegations hurt his sales a lot. Plus, Nevermind also took a bit of hype out of Dangerous. But if you take the allegations factor away, Dangerous would have reached at least 39-40 million. That is a fact. According to a survey, MJ's yearly album sales cut down by 75% after that incident.
 
Born in the USA (1984) was his best selling album with 15 million copies sold in the USA. Besides Thriller and Purple Rain it was another blockbuster album of the early to mid 80s. Springsteen was the all-American guy who America just loved. How many copies do you think Springsteen's next album sold in 1987? 3 million. Then until 2002 he never released any album that sold more than 1 million in the US. In 2002 he released an album which sold 2 million. Since then he had one more album that sold 1 million and nothing else he released went even platinum.
I think that comparison works in some ways but not in others. They are very different artists who were at very different points in their career at that time. Springsteen had released 6 albums and built a strong fanbase for 11 years prior to Born in the USA. He had already had his break-out record with Born to Run in 1975. Michael of course had been making music for even longer than that, but was still very much establishing himself as a solo artist when Thriller came out - it was only his second solo release as an adult after all. He was still developing himself as a songwriter, as a producer, refining his vocals, etc. For Springsteen, the Born in the USA album was more or less the culmination of 11 years of hard work. It was a very deliberate attempt to 'go casual' and see what would happen. Michael on the other hand saw Thriller, in many ways, as just the start of things.

This might have influenced their ideas about their follow-up albums. Where Michael reached for even bigger heights, Springsteen purposely decided to scale things back for his next release (the Tunnel of Love album). Instead of churning out another album of poppy rock songs, he wrote an album focused entirely on adult relationships with songs drenched in synth textures rather than guitar riffs. It was bound to alienate many of the casual fans that jumped on the bandwagon in 1984 and that was deliberate. He did not try to repeat the success of Born in the USA. In part, and this speaks to your point, because he knew that was impossible to do anyway. It's also because he simply did not care about (consistent) mainstream success as much as Michael did - they have totally different artistic backgrounds.

However, despite their completely opposite aims in terms of sales for their follow up record, neither decided to follow up their biggest seller with an album that would appease their 'core audience'. Springsteen did not go back to the music he was making prior to Born in the USA (and actually he had already gone through very different phases as an artist until then), but did something he never did before. Likewise, Michael did not go back to making another Off The Wall. And although he may have retained some elements of the Thriller formula for Bad, he kept evolving as an artist (and obviously continued this process with Dangerous and HIStory).

In my opinion it is very difficult to compare artists because every artist, and the situation they were in when they had massive mainstream success, is different. But I guess it just goes to show that they all pave their own way and that many of them want to evolve rather than keep doing the same thing they started out with. James Brown went from being The Godfather of Soul and making primarily r&b/soul music to the Minister of New New Super Heavy Funk. Elvis' second career phase (60s and 70s) was entirely different from the 50s Rock & Roll that shot him to superstardom. Bob Dylan's current music sounds nothing like the music that made him famous. Etc etc.

the formula of his music did not change (he's the kind of artist who always does basically the same kind of music)
Oh, I really disagree with this. This is imo a misconception many people have based on the Born in the USA hits you hear on the radio. His output might have been somewhat stagnant in the last 15 years but he has done a lot of different things in his career. Started out doing very r&b, even jazz-influenced songs on his first two/three albums, then combined it with a Phil Spector wall-of-sound type approach, then went for a sparser, more rural, sound in the late 70s. Did very folky acoustic albums, the adult contemporary stuff I mentioned above. Anyway, that's an entirely different topic!
 
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I think that comparison works in some ways but not in others. They are very different artists who were at very different points in their career at that time. Springsteen had released 6 albums and built a strong fanbase for 11 years prior to Born in the USA. He had already had his break-out record with Born to Run in 1975. Michael of course had been making music for even longer than that, but was still very much establishing himself as a solo artist when Thriller came out - it was only his second solo release as an adult after all. He was still developing himself as a songwriter, as a producer, refining his vocals, etc. For Springsteen, the Born in the USA album was more or less the culmination of 11 years of hard work. It was a very deliberate attempt to 'go casual' and see what would happen. Michael on the other hand saw Thriller, in many ways, as just the start of things.

Well, his US sales until Born in the USA are as follows:


Greetings from Asbury Park, N.J. - 2 million
The Wild, The Innocent & the E Street Shuffle - 2 million
Born to Run - 6 million
Darkness on the Edge of Town - 3 million
The River - 5 million
Nebraska - 1 million

Yes, he had Born to Run before Born in the USA. And Michael had Off the Wall which sold 8 million copies. I get it that Springsteen had more albums as a an adult solo artist before Born (well, Michael had a whole in itself successful careeer behind him with the J5, the Jacksons), but I don't think that refutes my argument. The point was that a lot of artists have a stand-out album (usually all big name artists who enjoyed massive mainstream popularity at some point) and I have rarely seen that success being kept up over several albums, let alone for the rest of their careers. So to make it an expectation and hold it up against Michael that he did not manage to keep up Thriller's success with Bad is unfair.

You can list the reasons why Springsteen did not and Michael had his own reasons why he did not. Those reasons might be different but they are all valid reasons not only in excuse of Springsteen but also in excuse of Michael. Besides I listed 3-4 other artists in my various posts in this thread who are all big name artists, who all had a massively successful stand-out album and could not repeat it with the next album or at any time during their later career, for that matter. It seems to be the norm, not some sort of bad failure on Michael's part as BBD seems to suggest it.



This might have influenced their ideas about their follow-up albums. Where Michael reached for even bigger heights, Springsteen purposely decided to scale things back for his next release (the Tunnel of Love album). Instead of churning out another album of poppy rock songs, he wrote an album focused entirely on adult relationships with songs drenched in synth textures rather than guitar riffs. It was bound to alienate many of the casual fans that jumped on the bandwagon in 1984 and that was deliberate. He did not try to repeat the success of Born in the USA. In part, and this speaks to your point, because he knew that was impossible to do anyway. It's also because he simply did not care about (consistent) mainstream success as much as Michael did - they have totally different artistic backgrounds.

I admit that I am only a casual listener of Springsteen but to me Born in the USA and Tunnel of Love sound a lot more similar than Thriller and Bad, even if Tunnel has less catchy, sing-along and less uptempo songs than Born. I think all of Michael's albums have a very unique, different character and style and to me Springsteen's style just seems more constant and less changing even if he might have experimented sometimes with slightly different things. But I am admittedly not as deep into Springsteen's catalog as in Michael's.

I think it's a common misconception that Michael tried to repeat Thriller on Bad. Bad sounds nothing like Thriller. What he said was trying to repeat or top the commercial success of it. I tend to view that more as self motivation, to be honest. I am not sure how seriously he believed in its chances of selling 100 million. Since he was a dreamer maybe he did believe in it, but in any case that did not mean he was stuck to the same formula musically. He stepped up, wrote almost all of the album, stopped working with Rod Temperton, started to work with his own production team (A Team vs. B Team), started to get more independence from Quincy etc. etc. No one can say he tried to do the same as on Thriller IMO. That both Thriller and Bad had one rock song does not make the formula and the character of the whole albums the same.
 
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In my opinion it is very difficult to compare artists because every artist, and the situation they were in when they had massive mainstream success, is different. But I guess it just goes to show that they all pave their own way and that many of them want to evolve rather than keep doing the same thing they started out with. James Brown went from being The Godfather of Soul and making primarily r&b/soul music to the Minister of New New Super Heavy Funk. Elvis' second career phase (60s and 70s) was entirely different from the 50s Rock & Roll that shot him to superstardom. Bob Dylan's current music sounds nothing like the music that made him famous. Etc etc.

I agree. You could add the Beatles to this list too. Please Please Me sounds nothing like Revolver, which sounds nothing like Sgt Pepper, which sounds nothing like the White Album, which sounds nothing like Abbey Road. I know its a hilarious line but in This Is Spinal Tap their manager says "No, I don't think their popularity is waning, I just think it's becomming more selective...." is actually quite true. Sometimes numbers drop off because someone who liked A doesn't like the sound of B. That necessarily doesn't mean that their popularity has gone down. (In the case of Spinal Tap it was haha) but for example, look at Paul McCartney. Sells out no matter where he goes. When's the last time he's released an album of songs that people would want to hear the majority of live?

I wasn't too gone with Invincible. Did my opinion change of Michael? Not in the slightest. He had evolved so much that I wasn't expecting him to release another album like it next time round. His popularity (in Europe anyway) while it may not have been what it once was (as the same it is for anybody over time) left him with 50 sold out shows at a venue that any act would be lucky to have a date. While he might have sold a few more tickets in 84 or 87 again I'll bring up the fact that the economy and the current society has a lot to do with sales and ticket numbers. Tickets for This Is It were a hell of a lot more expensive than Bad tour tickets.

I went off on a tangent. I can't remember for the life of me what point I was trying to make.
 
Dangerous's record sales was hindered by two things; Nevermind and the allegations.

It's been argued that if MJ had released Dangerous in November 1990 and not a year later Dangerous would have been more commercially successful and more critically acclaimed. Yet it's best remembered by some as the album which Nevermind knocked off the top of the charts. Nevermind changed the game, grunge was mainstream for a couple of years, although ironically as Joe Vogel points out, there is more darkness and bleakness to Dangerous than there was on Nevermind.

The allegations put the brakes on any further promotion for Dangerous. By that time the album had nearly been out two years, how long could MJ really have promoted Dangerous for at that stage anyway? It should have been time to start thinking about a next album (had the allegations not happened).

For me the reasons Dangerous didn't gain more sales is due to Nirvana than the allegations.
 
For me the reasons Dangerous didn't gain more sales is due to Nirvana than the allegations.

There really wasn't any more he could have done really. Sales would have taken a hit due to cancelled concerts too. Lots of people who go to a gig may not necessarily be a fan but could come out afterwards going "I need the album that Will You Be There is on".
 
Dangerous's record sales was hindered by two things; Nevermind and the allegations.

It's been argued that if MJ had released Dangerous in November 1990 and not a year later Dangerous would have been more commercially successful and more critically acclaimed. Yet it's best remembered by some as the album which Nevermind knocked off the top of the charts. Nevermind changed the game, grunge was mainstream for a couple of years, although ironically as Joe Vogel points out, there is more darkness and bleakness to Dangerous than there was on Nevermind.

The allegations put the brakes on any further promotion for Dangerous. By that time the album had nearly been out two years, how long could MJ really have promoted Dangerous for at that stage anyway? It should have been time to start thinking about a next album (had the allegations not happened).

For me the reasons Dangerous didn't gain more sales is due to Nirvana than the allegations.

I always thought the whole Dangerous vs. Nevermind thing was an artificial media created narrative. They made such a big deal of Nirvana knocking off Dangerous from the top of the charts (as if it's not natural that albums do not stay on the top of the charts forever), but they did not make the same significance out of Garth Brooks knocking off Nevermind just the next week. LOL. But it's true that it was unfortunate for Michael's image that the media pitted this whole popular new movement, grunge against him - and with that made him the embodiment of "uncool" vs. the cool new thing. Ironically though grunge proved to be a fad which seemed to have been dependent a lot on Kurt Cobain's charisma. When he died grunge altogether went back underground again.

And while we are at it:


Nevermind (1991) sold in the US 11.5 million. Nirvana's next album in only 2 years In Utero sold 5 million. There too you can see that big drop in sales even though in Nirvana's case only two years passed between the two albums and the whole grunge thing was still considered to be the "in" thing in 1993.
 
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I always thought the whole Dangerous vs. Nevermind thing was an artificial media created narrative. They made such a big deal of Nirvana knocking off Dangerous from the top of the charts (as if it's not natural that albums do not stay on the top of the charts forever), but they did not make the same significance out of Garth Brooks knocking off Nevermind just the next week. LOL. But it's true that it was unfortunate for Michael's image that the media pitted this whole popular new movement, grunge against him - and with that made him the embodiment of "uncool" vs. the cool new thing. Ironically though grunge proved to be a fad which seemed to have been dependent a lot on Kurt Cobain's charisma. When he died grunge altogether went back underground again.

Grunge started and ended with Cobain, when he died so did the movement.

I think because of how huge grunge became, had MJ released Dangerous a year earlier, or even 6 months earlier, Dangerous would have got a longer sustained run at the top of the charts and maybe sold more records. Just a theory though.
 
Well, his US sales until Born in the USA are as follows:


Greetings from Asbury Park, N.J. - 2 million
The Wild, The Innocent & the E Street Shuffle - 2 million
Born to Run - 6 million
Darkness on the Edge of Town - 3 million
The River - 5 million
Nebraska - 1 million

Yes, he had Born to Run before Born in the USA. And Michael had Off the Wall which sold 8 million copies. I get it that Springsteen had more albums as a an adult solo artist before Born (well, Michael had a whole in itself successful careeer behind him with the J5, the Jacksons), but I don't think that refutes my argument. The point was that a lot of artists have a stand-out album (usually all big name artists who enjoyed massive mainstream popularity at some point) and I have rarely seen that success being kept up over several albums, let alone for the rest of their careers. So to make it an expectation and hold it up against Michael that he did not manage to keep up Thriller's success with Bad is unfair.
I agree that it does not refute that point - that's not what I was trying to communicate. I agree that it was absolutely impossible to top Thriller. My point was that despite their different career stages and diametrically opposed strategies for their follow up records, both artists opted to do something they had not before rather than appease their 'core audience' (which is a vague term anyway). It is the nature of many artists to evolve. What I meant by Springsteen being more established as an adult solo artist had to do with their career stages: he had experienced a commercial peak and decline as a solo artist with Born to Run. Michael had gone through these stages with the J5 and the Jacksons, but was still just starting out as an adult solo artist.

You can list the reasons why Springsteen did not and Michael had his own reasons why he did not. Those reasons might be different but they are all valid reasons not only in excuse of Springsteen but also in excuse of Michael. Besides I listed 3-4 other artists in my various posts in this thread who are all big name artists, who all had a massively successful stand-out album and could not repeat it with the next album or at any time during their later career, for that matter. It seems to be the norm, not some sort of bad failure on Michael's part as BBD seems to suggest it.
Agreed. I think it is unprecedented that stratospheric success like that has been outdone or even replicated. And of course Michael's level of success was unprecedented in and of itself.

I admit that I am only a casual listener of Springsteen but to me Born in the USA and Tunnel of Love sound a lot more similar than Thriller and Bad, even if Tunnel has less catchy, sing-along and less uptempo songs than Born. I think all of Michael's albums have a very unique, different character and style and to me Springsteen's style just seems more constant and less changing even if he might have experimented sometimes with slightly different things. But I am admittedly not as deep into Springsteen's catalog as in Michael's.
Fair enough if you feel that way of course. I think if you give a song like The E Street Shuffle or Tenth Avenue Freeze Out a spin you'll find it sounds nothing like Born in the USA/that type of 'heartland rock'. Anyway, I digress. ;)

I think it's a common misconception that Michael tried to repeat Thriller on Bad. Bad sounds nothing like Thriller. What he said was trying to repeat or top the commercial success of it. I tend to view that more as self motivation, to be honest. I am not sure how seriously he believed in its chances of selling 100 million. Since he was a dreamer maybe he did believe in it, but in any case that did not mean he was stuck to the same formula musically. He stepped up, wrote almost all of the album, stopped working with Rod Temperton, started to work with his own production team (A Team vs. B Team), started to get more independence from Quincy etc. etc. No one can say he tried to do the same as on Thriller IMO. That both Thriller and Bad had one rock song does not make the formula and the character of the whole albums the same.
I agree that the character of the albums is different and that he did not try to make a Thriller 2 in terms of the music so to speak. What I meant by retaining some (emphasis on 'some') of the elements of the Thriller formula was, for instance: launching it with a 'soft' single (Girl Is Mine and IJCSLY) then following it up with a killer dance track with a short film (Billie Jean and Bad), trading vocals on a light song with another legend (McCartney and Stevie), including a rock track (Beat It and Dirty Diana), etc. Dangerous and HIStory are bigger departures from Thriller than Bad, a testament to the fact he was further evolving.

I do think it is probable that he genuinely wanted to outdo himself with Bad - all signs point to that being the case. It's part of the perfectionism that made him who he was. I am not sure if that always worked on a motivational level or if it was at times a hindrance, but it is the same perfectionism that made him great.

In the end, Michael, like many other artists, wanted to explore new ideas and further evolve. He did not want to go back to the same well he had before and even if he had, there is imo no way it could have matched the commercial success Thriller had.
 
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The way critics talk, you'd think that grunge was the only thing in the 90's when the real sellers of that decade were pop, R&B and hip hop stars like Mariah Carey, Celine Dione, MJ (let's be honest, he owned the decade worldwide), Dr Dre etc etc.
 
The way critics talk, you'd think that grunge was the only thing in the 90's when the real sellers of that decade were pop, R&B and hip hop stars like Mariah Carey, Celine Dione, MJ (let's be honest, he owned the decade worldwide), Dr Dre etc etc.

Much different in the UK and Ireland- it was Oasis, Blur, Spice Girls, East 17 and the like. But MJ is ridiculously never mentioned really on any of those programs about the 90's I see
 
The way critics talk, you'd think that grunge was the only thing in the 90's when the real sellers of that decade were pop, R&B and hip hop stars like Mariah Carey, Celine Dione, MJ (let's be honest, he owned the decade worldwide), Dr Dre etc etc.

And hip-hop actually proved to be more presistent and more influential than grunge. But in the music press rock always gets a more privileged treatment.
 
And hip-hop actually proved to be more presistent and more influential than grunge. But in the music press rock always gets a more privileged treatment.

Exactly, the top seller of the 2000's was a rapstar - Eminem. Although I don't like the direction rap is going in now.. It's too... flashy now.
 
Much different in the UK and Ireland- it was Oasis, Blur, Spice Girls, East 17 and the like. But MJ is ridiculously never mentioned really on any of those programs about the 90's I see

Wasn't Euro dance really big in the UK in the 90's? Growing up during that time I remember hearing that a lot
 
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