The Problem With A.I.

[Scared of the Moon]

There were a lot of developments recently regarding AI-Vocals. It has come to the point where it's starting to get hard to tell AI apart from the real Michael. And this is scary. I don't think many people realize what consequences this will have in the future.

Currently it's mostly used on songs that MJ actually had involvement in, like the Eaten Alive mix Beano did. And the people who are doing the stuff are also clearly labeling it as AI. And I don't think there's a problem with that because it's something that he actually recorded. But I do think it's not right to use Michael's voice on stuff he had absolutely no involvement in, such as fanmade songs and songs from other artists. I know it's not actually his voice. But once AI reaches the point where it can create a perfect replica of his voice, then the only difference is that Michael didn't actually sing it. It's just not right to just use his voice for everything we desire.

AI is getting better and easier to use, which will lead to the point where everyone can create an AI song in a few minutes. So there will be tons of new fake leaks in the future, and it will be impossible to know if they're real just by listening. This won't just be a problem with leaks. Can we trust the estate to not use AI to create new songs in the future? They sold us fake songs in the past. Even if the estate doesn't do it themselves, what if someone who worked with MJ makes AI songs and sells them to the estate?

Something has to be done right now. There has to be some kind of certification process where the people who worked with Michael on the songs confirm their authenticity. They need to create an archive of songs that are confirmed to be real so they can release these songs in the future. This has to be done before AI has become too powerful.

All of this is just my opinion on the whole thing. I'm not trying to hate on the people who currently use AI to create songs. I just think it's weird and unfair to Michael to use his voice for something on which he didn't actually work. What's your guys opinion on this? I just wanted to make people aware of the effects AI will have in the future.

 

[Beano Wild]

would this not go under the A.I. - Opinions post?

 

[Scared of the Moon]

would this not go under the A.I. - Opinions post?

I felt this was important enough for it's own thread. And I thought that other thread was mostly about the AI creations.

 

[Eulonzo]

Here's my perspective on this.

I'm a musician/producer who primarily does MJ material, like remixes. So I have strong opinions on the recent topic & popularity of AI.

I've always considered myself and individualist and have never cared to follow trends; when people go right, I often go left and it's always worked for me. The key has always been to innovate with what already exists from him; whether it's playing with vocals/filtered acapellas, or mixing or interpolating songs together. As long as it's done the right way, there's no harm for me. The #1 rule in creativity is there are no rules, however you must do right by Michael at the end of the day. And besides, I've created hundreds of 80s/90s remixes and beyond without the use of this popular new 'toy', so I don't need it now. I prefer the more organic way, as opposed to something like this which could lead to legal issues up the wazoo.

That said, I have no plans on using AI in my work.

I don't knock those who are using it, many of them are my peers or friends, but I personally am not crazy about it. It has its benefits - doing adult versions of J5 songs, or demos of songs he had a hand in, is definitely something new and fresh for fans, similar to other types of remixes/fanmade work. But as long as people use it for good and know the trouble that could come with it, tread lightly. That is all. This is someone's likeness, at the end of the day, and that 'someone' is also an icon who's no longer here, with an Estate who doesn't tolerate plagiarism very well. They've had their shady moments, but that's still their guy.

So overall, not for me entirely.

 

[NetflexKingGR]

The only problem with A.I. is that it's just too good and enjoyable.
Jokes aside. I get it why people are worried about fakes, but this issue existed years ago. AI is just another tool that can help the scammers, but as fans we are quite in a position where we question every single leak and search for sources and proof.
I personally enjoy A.I. , I see this as a tool to immortalize our Icon. And there is no bigger bless for a human who isn't among us anymore to be Immortal. Also I think it's really fun and great to complete incomplete material and demos. For example Kai's revision of In The Back made me love the track that once was just a dull demo in my mind.
I think Michael would love this.

 

[Scared of the Moon]

I get it why people are worried about fakes, but this issue existed years ago. AI is just another tool that can help the scammers, but as fans we are quite in a position where we question every single leak and search for sources and proof.

Fake leaks in the past were easily detectable. But what if it's impossible to say if the leak is real and there's no information about the song that confirms its authenticity or the contrary?

I personally enjoy A.I. , I see this as a tool to immortalize our Icon. And there is no bigger bless for a human who isn't among us anymore to be Immortal.

I would describe it as exploiting Michael. Using his voice for ourselves.

I think Michael would love this.

We don't even know if he would have wanted his music released after his death, let alone fake songs using his voice.

 

[Beano Wild]

look, i disagree with using MJ to create "new songs". ive made that clear, and present all the tracks ive done as AI, and songs michael had an involvement in.

theres one exception though, using AI voice for lets say writers demos to present to producers saying "this is the style of voice i need for this song" though? thats something i think is a great use of ai, although preferable not using a dead man's voice. But if its not being released to the public, and its being used as a template, then i dont see the issue.

 

[ALCAPONE BAD]

There are tastes for everything. In my case, these artificial intelligence projects that several fans are working on are fascinating and curious, in my opinion it is not bad, they do no harm or profit with Michael, they also ask for the opinion and support of their followers, they make it clear to you, they are fan-made projects and it is true that there are other people on YouTube who want to make you believe that they are real leaks but we are a community that can support each other and put an end to those people who really profit by saying "new leak"

 

[filmandmusic]

The problem with A.I. Is that it’s A.I.

 

[Alec]

My thinking and feelings around this are still developing, but at the moment, I don't have any ethical objections.

Michael's career ended with This Is It, which was the last project he put together. The team he assembled created a wonderful documentary that showcased some of the creative highlights from that period, and... that's it. Literally, that's where it ends.

Anything released after that is just an approximation of what might have been or what once was...

Even stories from his collaborators, as interesting as they are, are not really an accurate representation of what happened when he was alive. They're just "a" perspective, biased and colored through the lens of time (like Brad Buxer writing himself into some songs more and more each time he tells a story, or Sundberg presenting himself as MJ's "technical director").

So whether it's a demo of a song that sounds like crap (e.g., Thriller 40) or a botched remix (Blue Gangsta), or someone using Michael's voice as an instrument through AI... it doesn't have much to do with him or his actual creative output. He died 15 years ago.

So it's all fun and rather harmless entertainment IMO. And it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things, as long as you can pick up an unaltered copy of Bad or HIStory, or read one of his books, or enjoy his incredible music videos.

 

[Robbsaber01]

This is simply another tool that can be used for good or for bad. I look forward to how this tech improves!

 

[@mjfanatic777]

The problem with A.I. Is that it’s A.I.

yes.

 

[@mjfanatic777]

Here's my thought: Fans can make fanmade songs with AI but they will have to add in the tile that is fanmade and it's using AI so we know that is AI and it's not actually released by the estate. But I don't really like the idea of have fake leaks I know some may like it but it can get some fans confused. And I don't feel very comfortable of other people using Michael's voice but AI in songs they want to release. Because there are not using Michael's permission. BUT if they want add AI sounding like Michael in their song and then say they want a voice like that then that's fine but they'll have to find a similar voice. Hope that made sense

 

[wendijane]

I am passionate about this so whoever said "it is scary" i agree. At first I was looking forward to how it progress ! Gotta love tech and the progression of it -but quickly realise that it was taking the emotional rights out of a song and that emotion is the core of artistry ...the true meaning of art. So, i am not for AI at all.

This is my little thought on this n no it won't change n i stand by every word cause i've witnessed the progression. Gets me aggravated i tell ya.

Reality telly slowly wrung out the guts in the meaning of celebrity in the early 00s.
Social media zapped out the anticipation , veil, illusion, artistry, the thrill and magic, it kind of wiped out MJ- so to speak , his core... because he was all about privacy and illusion.
now -ai slowly, we are not there yet ...but is wiping out the rights, control, n the emotion of the showman's voice which generation X/ Y/ knew and how we knew it!
i mean guys we cant even say show man anymore without being corrected ! anyway... its over to the Z's now and Gamma and whatever comes after that to ...save it? - save showtime? what would they be saving exactly? What is showtime now? . I was in a good discussion the other month on the subject of this on yt. We all came to the conclusion we really don't have showtime anymore. Do we? ..
i don't even want to think about a rock concert.... I mean ffs.

So, in a nutshell -frustrating times ahead for the maker/ listener if not used correctly ...but i think most people won't listen. because , n it just come full circle ...everyone is now that celeb -which reality television/ media planted in the mindset of the masses at the start of the millennium.

and i just want to end quoting W. Axl Rose lyrics as my words on this. (and i choose him because he was a very outspoken celeb, full of creativity, influence, intelligence n emotion .. and one of the very few who worked damn hard to get his title. and i dreamt of him taking out AI the other night )

"Where do we go now?"
Video ? yeah okay .....because ai cannot duplicate this much human emotional depth which is the point of an entertainment artist.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I am passionate about this so whoever said "it is scary" i agree. At first I was looking forward to how it progress ! Gotta love tech and the progression of it -but quickly realise that it was taking the emotional rights out of a song and that emotion is the core of artistry ...the true meaning of art. So, i am not for AI at all.

I haven't been interested in AI from Day Dot. Is there going to be an upside? I have no idea but I can't see it or imagine it. So I agree with wendi, the true meaning of art could be under threat. In fact, I'm going to quote something I posted on another thread:

[...] It reminds me of a Nick Cave interview I read this week in the Sunday Times. Not hugely interested in the man's music but he always does a good interview. He's been asked more than once for his thoughts on AI songwriting. Here's one comment he made:
"[AI is] not vulnerable enough to create something that's convincingly transcendent."

The interview was conducted by Rowan Williams ... and he had this to say:
"Art comes from a specific, unique human place - particular and unrepeatable experiences of grief and joy. What would the consequences be if we start expecting art to give us the emotions we think we want? Isn't art more to do with discovering what we didn't know we needed?"

At the moment, AI is being manipulated by humans, afaik. Which I'm not thrilled about but, OK. For me, it's more about where it goes next.

now -ai slowly, we are not there yet ...but is wiping out the rights, control, n the emotion of the showman's voice which generation X/ Y/ knew and how we knew it!

This right here, especially the part about the control. For Michael, he already doesn't have that bc he's not here. So that is already a problem. But I can't see the AI as doing anything other than adding more unwanted layers of complexity and difficulty to the situation.

i don't even want to think about a rock concert.... I mean ffs.

Rock music is my one true love, I can't even contain AI and rock music in the same thought.

So, in a nutshell -frustrating times ahead for the maker/ listener if not used correctly

Except maybe not. Bc I simply won't engage. I might be in a tiny minority. But as long as stuff is accurately labelled (that's a whole other discussion) I won't go near AI. I can't see why I would want to.

...but i think most people won't listen.

I just won't listen. I can't imagine why I would need to. Which means I'll be out of the loop. On a personal level, that might not matter too much. I'm just one person. My preferences are my concern, not anyone else's. But the wider implications are worrying, for sure.

and i just want to end quoting W. Axl Rose lyrics as my words on this. (and i choose him because he was a very outspoken celeb, full of creativity influence n emotion .. and one of the ones who worked damn hard to get his title. and i dreamt of him taking out AI the other night )

"Where do we go now?"
Video ? yeah okay .....because ai cannot duplicate this much human emotional depth.

There were a lot of developments recently regarding AI-Vocals. It has come to the point where it's starting to get hard to tell AI apart from the real Michael. And this is scary. I don't think many people realize what consequences this will have in the future.

This is the bit that worries me the most.

All of this is just my opinion on the whole thing. I'm not trying to hate on the people who currently use AI to create songs. I just think it's weird and unfair to Michael to use his voice for something on which he didn't actually work. What's your guys opinion on this? I just wanted to make people aware of the effects AI will have in the future.

This.

 

[wendijane]

I haven't been interested in AI from Day Dot. Is there going to be an upside? I have no idea but I can't see it or imagine it. So I agree with wendi, the true meaning of art could be under threat. In fact, I'm going to quote something I posted on another thread:

ART .......is UNDER THREAT ! OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH it breaks me zin

At the moment, AI is being manipulated by humans, afaik. Which I'm not thrilled about but, OK. For me, it's more about where it goes next.

...exactly.

This right here, especially the part about the control. For Michael, he already doesn't have that bc he's not here. So that is already a problem. But I can't see the AI as doing anything other than adding more unwanted layers of complexity and difficulty to the situation.

Exactly what it does. Art is supposed to be simple , free ...expression...freedom of expression.

Rock music is my one true love, I can't even contain AI and rock music in the same thought.

Cosigned. in blood sweat n tears zin.

Except maybe not. Bc I simply won't engage. I might be in a tiny minority. But as long as stuff is accurately labelled (that's a whole other discussion) I won't go near AI. I can't see why I would want to.

You are focused. have control. me , its like the worse cut keep picking at it. people can get greedy and it will be a game of he said /she said that is when things will nose dive.

I just won't listen. I can't imagine why I would need to. Which means I'll be out of the loop. On a personal level, that might not matter too much. I'm just one person. My preferences are my concern, not anyone else's. But the wider implications are worrying, for sure.

Exactly . zin . For future gens. I don't want original voices wiped out!

truth n. youll never view that song in the same way again if you replace the woman with music. art ... "Sweet love of mine" which we all ...all on this board love n honour great , original , true artistry dearly. We value it. Just like a child. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

This is the bit that worries me the most.

@zinniabooklover I agree @Scared of the Moon WHERE DO WE GO NOW ?

This.

Pain. we r heading for a big calamity ...huge. ...i cant stop this.

 

[wendijane]

Mozart still has his original "voice". i want my artists to still have their original voice. this is pretty serious 4 me. It is a new type of piracy to me.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Me personally, the more AI I hear, the more unlike MJ it sounds. Very rarely have the results actually impressed me the way MJ does. It's an uncanny duplication that is easy to tell; this whole theory is kinda flawed. They'll just never get there. They are at most, like really good Jason Malachi's on demand. I still love the idea and it is fascinating but I am personally not getting into it that much.

The much more damaging dangerous implications are with deepfakes and making footage using people's real faces. Now that's truly uncanny. And the ever present danger that comes just with being accused of a crime, tbh. A few fans saying their Spice of Life take is the real thing, is dangerous, is just silly. If it gets that bad then the estate can just officially release material and make it available on physical media and streaming only.

 

[Scared of the Moon]

Me personally, the more AI I hear, the more unlike MJ it sounds. Very rarely have the results actually impressed me the way MJ does. It's an uncanny duplication that is easy to tell; this whole theory is kinda flawed. They'll just never get there. They are at most, like really good Jason Malachi's on demand. I still love the idea and it is fascinating but I am personally not getting into it that much.

Give it a few more years, and it will exactly sound like Michael. The improvement in the last few years has already been huge. Just to give you some context, this is how it sounded 1 year ago:

The much more damaging dangerous implications are with deepfakes and making footage using people's real faces. Now that's truly uncanny. And the ever present danger that comes just with being accused of a crime, tbh.

I agree with you that deepfakes are also very dangerous.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Give it a few more years, and it will exactly sound like Michael. The improvement in the last few years has already been huge. Just to give you some context, this is how it sounded 1 year ago:

I agree with you that deepfakes are also very dangerous.

The potential has definitely improved in a short amount of time. But you gotta understand, the average person's AI still sounds like this. Beano Wild is the only one that has cracked the code, with a special sauce in the mix of whatever he's doing. Even then it's not quite 1:1. You can't do an AI Acapella, it's still very robotic sounding and you can tell. It's not there yet.

But I've already been of the mind the MJ Estate should get ahead of this with their own official AI tool, maybe sourced from a fan. And they could use it lightly to fill in demoes and unfinished songs where they could, to complete certain songs. As long as it's reasonable. Or better yet, it can be a remaster tool. AI as remaster is a greater tool in my books.

 

[pinballmaster]

The potential has definitely improved in a short amount of time. But you gotta understand, the average person's AI still sounds like this. Beano Wild is the only one that has cracked the code, with a special sauce in the mix of whatever he's doing. Even then it's not quite 1:1. You can't do an AI Acapella, it's still very robotic sounding and you can tell. It's not there yet.

But I've already been of the mind the MJ Estate should get ahead of this with their own official AI tool, maybe sourced from a fan. And they could use it lightly to fill in demoes and unfinished songs where they could, to complete certain songs. As long as it's reasonable. Or better yet, it can be a remaster tool. AI as remaster is a greater tool in my books.

I agree. I wonder how many unfinished songs could be completed using something like this.
As of now, AI created content cannot be copyrighted. I imagine we won't see projects like this until the legality is sorted out.
Or it'll be like the fake Michael album fiasco.
I showed the Eaten Alive AI creation to my wife. She agreed it was really good and she wouldn't have known had I not told her it was indeed fake.
I listened like 10 times. It's so good. Imagine if the beat was higher quality. It's good enough for an official release.
Best thing I've heard in many years. So impressed.
I imagine in the next couple of years, there will be great advancements in this technology. It would be great if Beano Wild could explain in more detail how he's doing this. Is the impersonator he's using just that good? How important in the impersonator?
I don't personally understand how this works.
Does a person record the verse/chorus and then use this software to tweak each word to Michaels voice specifications?
Kind like like an autotune?
I do think this is very concerning for the music industry. Imagine being able to do this for anyone. Imagine the average person being able to record in 2pac, Phil Collins, or Madonna's voice... Like how will the public be able to decide what's real or fake?
If anything can be created or replicated within minutes I worry all art will cease to have value.
Especially if it can't be copyrighted or owned.
It's so exciting, but also so scary.
So many artists within a couple of years will be without jobs.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

I very much disagree with creating AI to make MJ sing something he never did. Just don't see where the enjoyment is there.

 

[wonderouzmj]

I very much disagree with creating AI to make MJ sing something he never did. Just don't see where the enjoyment is there.

Literally!!!

 

[kai]

but if you don’t have enjoyment in certain things why not let enjoy others while you listen to something else.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

but if you don’t have enjoyment in certain things why not let enjoy others while you listen to something else.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is preventing anyone from doing anything.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I very much disagree with creating AI to make MJ sing something he never did. Just don't see where the enjoyment is there.

If the song is half done, it was probably meant to be fully done. Whatever MJ intended to do in London basically. That's all I would say peaks my curiosity.

It's just as easy to argue what's the enjoyment in hearing MJ mumble songs he never wanted us to hear like that. Is there nuance to posthumous work?

 

[SmoothGangsta]

It's just as easy to argue what's the enjoyment in hearing MJ mumble songs he never wanted us to hear like that. Is there nuance to posthumous work?

One is MJ and one isn't so this makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

One is MJ and one isn't so this makes absolutely no sense.

Neither one is finished by MJ or has his stamp of approval. One isn't beholden to his standards at all, it's basically an impersonator show, which he never once cared about.

 

[kai]

I think the A.I stuff is pretty interesting and fascinating.. and at the end it's still art. Just include "A.I" in the title and its fine..

 

[wendijane]

your fucking with peoples legacys thats the thing.