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The problems with Invincible

I don't THINK anyone is trying to say that Invincible was a top quality song in comparison to his previous work?!?!?? I do believe that the album could have had a decent size more success than it did if it was not for the issues between MJ and Sony and everything that fell apart because of it...

could have pulled in maybe another 5 million in sales if promoted right...


And I personally think they should have pushed the album out a bit more considering the release was only 41 days after 9/11...
 
I think When MJ pulled the anti-Sony stunt they pulled the plug on promotion. He did shoot himself in the foot on that occasion but at the same time I don't think he would have done it unless he felt he had a genuine reason.
I do like a lot of tracks from the album however, even if I feel structurally it's a bit of a mess. Threatened cost a fortune because of those brilliant Rod Serling Twilght Zone snippets and that could have produced a superb short film. Unbreakable, Heartbreaker are brilliant, Butterflies, Break of Dawn, Speachless, Whatever Happens are some of his best, and I even think 2000 Watts is interesting in that it's so different.

Another thing that I've always had an issue with is the sound of the album. Whatever way it was mixed it's a little too loud and jarring in comparison to his other albums. I think the louder the levels, the more quality you lose.
 
I think what gets us all still talking about this 15 years after its release is the fact that from leaks and future released we have been shown great potential and quality of work from 1998-2009 that shows that there was some genius stuff that we truly believe could have given a great 'jult' in MJ's career at the time when it could have been used most...

That and the fact in many ways Invincible in many ways thought of as Michaels last full album in the historic series (Off The Wall/ Thriller/Bad/History/Invincible) and it's hard to swallow that the last did not go out with a BANG!!

....And material shows that it could have.
 
Tons of promotion, a tour, big album sales, and short films will never make an album sound any better for me. The music should always come first, not the hype that surrounds the music.
 
analogue said:
Tons of promotion, a tour, big album sales, and short films will never make an album sound any better for me. The music should always come first, not the hype that surrounds the music.
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Amen. Lady Gaga couldnt have tried harder to get me to like. Artpop. Next.
 
analogue said:
Tons of promotion, a tour, big album sales, and short films will never make an album sound any better for me. The music should always come first, not the hype that surrounds the music.
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I understand the point a lot of you guys are making but it's not as black and white for me. For example when the Bad album was released I wasn't a fan of Smooth Criminal until "that" short film blew my mind. There's a certain amount of psychology and perception that (at least for me) a person can experience. I've listened to albums and songs during my life that hit me a certain way at a certain time. I've had moments of hearing songs in clubs and concerts and they hit me like "fxxk me!! I'm really feeling this!"At times It's been more of a subjective open ended experience for me, and I would imagine had he toured with Invincible and fans got to hear many of those tracks live, it would have changed their minds, like when I heard Another Part Of Me live I was like "This is pure awesomeness!!" So I do think other factors can play a part in how it can be perceived. Like lastnight I listened to the first 7 or 8 tracks from Invincible and they never sounded better to me. Of course there will always be songs that I'll just never connect with but different people connect with different things at different times. I take the points of yourself, Innuendo and AlwaysThere, I just don't think art is always as straightforward as that. Emotional state and where you are in your life can play into how you experience and perceive. Only speaking for myself of course.
 
The songs on Michael's previous albums didn't need any short films to make them sound better. They were already fantastic songs that could stand on their own merits. For me, having a great short film to go along with an already great song is just icing on the cake.

A song should be able to speak for itself
 
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aazzaabb said:
I understand the point a lot of you guys are making but it's not as black and white for me. For example when the Bad album was released I wasn't a fan of Smooth Criminal until "that" short film blew my mind. There's a certain amount of psychology and perception that (at least for me) a person can experience. I've listened to albums and songs during my life that hit me a certain way at a certain time. I've had moments of hearing songs in clubs and concerts and they hit me like "fxxk me!! I'm really feeling this!"At times It's been more of a subjective open ended experience for me, and I would imagine had he toured with Invincible and fans got to hear many of those tracks live, it would have changed their minds, like when I heard Another Part Of Me live I was like "This is pure awesomeness!!" So I do think other factors can play a part in how it can be perceived. Like lastnight I listened to the first 7 or 8 tracks from Invincible and they never sounded better to me. Of course there will always be songs that I'll just never connect with but different people connect with different things at different times. I take the points of yourself, Innuendo and AlwaysThere, I just don't think art is always as straightforward as that. Emotional state and where you are in your life can play into how you experience and perceive. Only speaking for myself of course.
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I can totally relate to that. it does mean a lot how/when you hear it. this isn't MJ, but I'm gonna tell you this story anyway, because the times it has happened with him, for me, the difference only been minor, and the story I'm about to tell you, the difference was huge
story: I don't like instrumental music. it's just so boring to me, there has to be singing. in 2009 I was at a concert with Cliff Richard & The Shadows (50th Anniversary tour), and there was a point where he (Cliff) left the stage for a break, and it was just The Shadows playing, and OMG! it was so ****ing amazing, it sounded so good! I didn't want it to end. it was almost the best part of the whole concert. I'll never forget it, it was almost like magic
ask me to listen to a CD with instrumental music? I say, no way jose. not even The Shadows. I wont do it. watching a DVD with said concert? if you skip that part I'm gonna kill you :lol:
 
analogue said:
The songs on Michael's previous didn't need any short films to make them sound better. They were already fantastic songs that could stand on their own merits. For me, having a great short film to go along with an already great song is just icing on the cake.

A song should be able to speak for itself
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I think for MJ and a lot of his fans, the visual was every bit as important as the aural. When I watch Thriller, Bad, TWYMMF, SC, BOW, Earth Song, Ghost etc their as pleasing to look at visually as they are to listen to. When I hear any of these songs I immedietly see the visuals in my mind. I think both art forms were as equally important to MJ. I don't think MJ would have reached so many people if he wasn't one of the worlds most visual artists, would he? I mean he pioneered the MTV generation and as much as the music was phenomenal, the visual aspect pushed him through the roof. And I think many of the tracks on Ivincible DO stand on their own merits. I mean some of them are some of his best recordings. Just my two cents anyways.
 
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Michaels Lover said:
I can totally relate to that. it does mean a lot how/when you hear it. this isn't MJ, but I'm gonna tell you this story anyway, because the times it has happened with him, for me, the difference only been minor, and the story I'm about to tell you, the difference was huge
story: I don't like instrumental music. it's just so boring to me, there has to be singing. in 2009 I was at a concert with Cliff Richard & The Shadows (50th Anniversary tour), and there was a point where he (Cliff) left the stage for a break, and it was just The Shadows playing, and OMG! it was so ****ing amazing, it sounded so good! I didn't want it to end. it was almost the best part of the whole concert. I'll never forget it, it was almost like magic
ask me to listen to a CD with instrumental music? I say, no way jose. not even The Shadows. I wont do it. watching a DVD with said concert? if you skip that part I'm gonna kill you :lol:
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Yup! Ive had tons of instances in my life where Ive heard songs performed live and it completely changed my feelings about them. It's not ALWAYS as straight forward as 'I don't like this song therefore I never will and never can. That would be such an awful way to experience clubs, concerts, music videos etc.

I'm not saying x amount of promotion, a world tour and short films would have made Invincible artistically better merely on it's musicality, but it certainly would have revealed a few more brilliant songs for what they were, based on them being revealed to a wider audience, so in that sense had the album had more commercial success it could changed how a lot of people perceive it.

A lot of people around the world buy into commercial success, it's not always a good thing but not always a bad thing either. Had the Invincible era panned out a whole lot better with short films and promo, and through that sold a few more copies, then a few more people would have discovered a half dozen classic MJ tracks. But now I'm just ranting and my point is neither here nor there.

Strictly on musical terms, it's not his best effort no. It does irk me though that there's "a few that got away" on there, lost in the crossfire, and it's a shame we didn't get 4 or 5 more classic short films. It may have slightly elevated people's opinion of it. Such is life.
 
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analogue said:
The songs on Michael's previous didn't need any short films to make them sound better. They were already fantastic songs that could stand on their own merits. For me, having a great short film to go along with an already great song is just icing on the cake.

A song should be able to speak for itself
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I give you Thriller, would never listen on any MJ playlist, put the short film on and I would always love.
 
a visual always helps... Thriller is a perfect example TonyR... The album was released end of 1982.. the song itself was in millions of hands and it was not released as a single until 1984 along side the video and BOOM... the sales of Thriller album sky rocketed because of the video..
 
MJ could have made an amazing short film for Privacy, and I'd still say that was the worst song he's ever released
 
analogue said:
MJ could have made an amazing short film for Privacy, and I'd still say that was the worst song he's ever released
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I think we'd all agree with that. Same could be said for The Girl Is Mine and a few others. But take the best 6 from Invincible and make 6 short films with great directors, with great treatments and storylines, and partly conceptualised by Michael Jackson and it could have elevated things slightly? Yeah Privacy is still going to sound like Privacy, but Break of Dawn, Unbreakable, Whatever Happens, Speechless, Threatened? Wouldn't amazing short films from some of these further cement their greatness into the public/fan consciousness? And slighty raise the Invincible era/album overall? Apart from Invincibles artisical failure on several levels, isn't a lack of a decent collection of videos also something that plays into its underachievement? Or am I desperately reaching too far?
 
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Threatened is a great song (Too good for Invincible IMO), and that could have had a great short film to go with it. But that song was so good, that it didn't need a short film to convince me it was good.
 
analogue said:
Threatened is a great song (Too good for Invincible IMO), and that could have had a great short film to go with it. But that song was so good, that it didn't need a short film to convince me it was good.
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I hear you, BUT......Can you imagine that short film?! Wouldn't that short film bring a few people to the album the same way Thriller and Smooth brought people to those albums? I'm delighted you pointed out this track specifically because of the brilliance of it, and the fact MJ was so passionate about it and paid ridiculous money for the Rod Serling material which gives the track that vintage creative edge. When I refer to "the ones that got away" Threatened is at the top of that list. It pissed me off massively that casual music/MJ fans missed out on that one.
 
^ That honestly was the first song that jumped out at me as a visual right away...

I pictured it black & white, more of a grainy film with semi exadurated contrast on the dark tones, bringing out a high res look with the filter... outside cold like it rained earlier in the day.

Start off with close up on man heal shoes walking (similar to types Mike would wear)... dark pan moving upwards showcasing a crowd overlooking Michael from a distance at a podium on the top of stairs.. (view point from behind the crowd) .. Crowd movement taken out a few frames to show choppiness on the but podium with security behind him normal frames.. (showing disconnect from crowd and him) [[Michae in thick winter coat, shades]]

On the line "One snap shot please" I picture a short older beaten down man (almost goofy looking) .. The sound on .21 seconds zooms into Michael at podium looking onwardly at the crowd... He speaks the lyrics to them until "You keep on stocking me" where he starts walking from podium and enters a limo.. (same time crowd rushes the car of course [crowd/media still frames off]

shows him In limo, than wide shot of limo leaving.. as the limo pulls of, shows limo from high angle/side walk view.. Limo passes and camera pans down to a old school paper stand (on lyric "That you'll even sell your soal just to get your story sold") showing on the front page of the news paper Head Line [Angered Jackson Lashes out At Media] with a pic of him at the podium ((That JUST happened)) looking very mad.

Media frantically looking for Michael, run down an alley way facing camera and you see behind the limo driving passed behind on the streets..





OK, ive had this thing in my head for years.. ill stop there haha.. srry
 
^^Ha brilliant! We all do it!








Where the #*%^ is MattyJam when you need him?!
 
First of all, I love Invincible. I think it's a very underrated album and it's sad it didn't get more attention. Speechless is a gem, as is Whatever Happens and some others, at least for me.

I agree that some songs kind of require a live performance or a visual you can relate to. And whenever I'm listening to Invincible, I'm thinking about how fabulous it would've been for Michael to open an Invincible World Tour with Unbreakable. The song is just made for a live performance.

Imagine those lines roaring through a stadium:

Now I'm just wondering why you think
That you can get to me with anything
Seems like you'd now by now
When and how I get down
And with all that I've been through, I'm still around

You can't believe it, you can't conceive it
and you can't touch me, 'cause I'm untouchable
and I know you hate it, and you can't take it
You'll never break me, 'cause I'm unbreakable

It's a big f*ck you to all the media and paparazzi and it would've been amazing. :bow:
 
^^Ive had that fantasy many times! Unbreakable was made to open a live show and had he been allowed to make his short film for it more people would have been exposed to it. It's one of his best "f#*$ you" tracks ever! Man, just thinking of that blasting as a show opener!
 
first off I always thought the album should have been titled Unbreakable... the song Invincible is about a girl being invincible... Unbreakable is HIS strength!!

OR switch the world "unbreakable" and "Invincible" in the songs to make it about him.. Title of Album I'd like to be about him...
 
Unbreakable is easily Michael's best opening album track. Fierce and unrelenting.

Not a fan of it for an album title though.
 
Well it would have been nice if Slash did the guitar solo part in Privacy but it was someone else and Michael said "Slash!".
 
Edit: never mind. I'm kind of tired of discussing Invincible at the minute. My opinion hasn't changed in the last few years.
 
muhammed said:
Well it would have been nice if Slash did the guitar solo part in Privacy but it was someone else and Michael said "Slash!".
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Exactly. That and the Privacy opening and YRMW intro are just lots of little things that just detract from it as well as the padded material.

It's not a bad pop/R&B album by any means but as a piece of work it is almost uncomparable to his other albums.
 
Unbreakable is lyrically probably my least favourite anti-detractors song that he did. I think he explored the anti-media thing with so much more depth on tracks like Why You Wanna Trip On Me and Tabloid Junkie, and the more general perception of him as a 'freak' with so much more depth on Ghosts and Is It Scary (and even Threatened). For me it's one of those things where the louder you say that things don't affect you and that you are untouchable/unbreakable, the less I believe you. On Scream he did admit that the pressure got to him (as it would to anyone of course) and that felt much more honest to me. Unbreakable is pretty juvenile in comparison, imo.

Musically I'm not a fan of the song either, but I could easily see it work well live with that thumping beat.
 
maja said:
First of all, I love Invincible. I think it's a very underrated album and it's sad it didn't get more attention. Speechless is a gem, as is Whatever Happens and some others, at least for me.

I agree that some songs kind of require a live performance or a visual you can relate to. And whenever I'm listening to Invincible, I'm thinking about how fabulous it would've been for Michael to open an Invincible World Tour with Unbreakable. The song is just made for a live performance.

Imagine those lines roaring through a stadium:

Now I'm just wondering why you think
That you can get to me with anything
Seems like you'd now by now
When and how I get down
And with all that I've been through, I'm still around

You can't believe it, you can't conceive it
and you can't touch me, 'cause I'm untouchable
and I know you hate it, and you can't take it
You'll never break me, 'cause I'm unbreakable

It's a big f*ck you to all the media and paparazzi and it would've been amazing. :bow:
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I always hoped the This is It shows would open with this song!!!
 
SoCav said:
Unbreakable is lyrically probably my least favourite anti-detractors song that he did. I think he explored the anti-media thing with so much more depth on tracks like Why You Wanna Trip On Me and Tabloid Junkie, and the more general perception of him as a 'freak' with so much more depth on Ghosts and Is It Scary (and even Threatened). For me it's one of those things where the louder you say that things don't affect you and that you are untouchable/unbreakable, the less I believe you. On Scream he did admit that the pressure got to him (as it would to anyone of course) and that felt much more honest to me. Unbreakable is pretty juvenile in comparison, imo.

Musically I'm not a fan of the song either, but I could easily see it work well live with that thumping beat.
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Well the problem is, people/the media etc. DIDN'T listen to the subtler songs. So maybe that's why he tried something else with Invincible. And I can't blame him. When you try to make people understand for ages and they won't even consider a different opinion, you're just bound to get frustrated.

I think it was a fantastic idea to open the album that way. He's only telling the truth. So why not tell them directly to their faces? You can humiliate and ridicule me as long as you want - I'll always come back, don't even hope to think otherwise.

Yes, it's very forthright, but it is a very strong statement as well. :)
 
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maja said:
Well the problem is, people/the media etc. DIDN'T listen to the subtler songs. So maybe that's why he tried something else with Invincible. And I can't blame him. When you try to make people understand for ages and they won't even consider a different opinion, you're just bound to get frustrated.

I think it was a fantastic idea to open the album that way. He's only telling the truth. So why not tell them directly to their faces? You can humiliate and ridicule me as long as you want - I'll always come back, don't even hope to think otherwise.

Yes, it's very forthright, but it is a very strong statement as well. :)
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I can understand your take on it and why you enjoy it given your perspective. Personally, I am not convinced that he's telling the truth. I am in the sense that he won't let them stop him from coming back, but not in the sense that "you can't get to me"/"you'll never ever hurt me"/"I'm untouchable". If anything, the fact that this is the fifth album in a row where he was writing songs about this shows that it did affect him (and again, of course I can see why it did and why he did want to write about it). I get that he wanted to put his frustration into a song, but I feel he did it much better in previous songs already.

For me it goes beyond this particular song and its lyrics though. It's hard to describe. Imo this song and a number of others on Invincible at times have a bit of an air of inauthenticity about them - musically, lyrically and/or vocally. The heavy reliance on other songwriters probably didn't help, but I really like almost all the songs he did with other songwriters before this period, so that doesn't fully explain it. It's the only MJ (& Jacksons) material that gives me that feeling at times. It's not the era overall either, as there are songs on the album and particularly some outtakes that I do really like. Some of the songs on the album just don't feel very heartfelt to me, when nornally his work shines in that regard. There's always that indefinable element, musically and vocally, that makes you feel it's Michael Jackson. Some of these songs lack that imo.
 
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