Thoughts on "Threatened" [MERGED]

[ScreenOrigami]

Thanks for expressing in one sentence what I was trying to say through many posts. :blush: :rofl:

Your posts are much more detailed though, great points.

I feel many people are missing out on so much by only looking at MJ’s songs from the most obvious angle.

 

[JichaelMackson]

Nobody is keeping you from explaining more about the meaning of threatened :laughing:
If there are things I should see but don't see please show me!

Besides the meaning I just don't like the melody or music much, so it's not going to change how I feel about the song I reckon but who knows!

 

[innuendo]

A love song is a love song, it's for the ages, it's universal. You can write all kinds of songs about love. But a horror song is rare and then writing lyrics for it where the writer/singer is the ghoul dissing the press can only be done once. It's a one of idea. Every time you do it again, you're just repeating yourself. I have the same feelings with songs like we are the world, heal the world, people of the world etc. It's just the same song with different words and melody. MJ has written so many songs about being unfairly treated by the press, imo it got tiring and lazy. He was always angry in those songs it's an emotion that's not going to win many people over, unlike love songs or dance songs which instantly make people happy.

I didn't know that artists weren't supposed to create art that is connected to what's going on in their lives or that they shouldn't express their feelings through their art if they are not positive enough, I also didn't know that an artist's supposed goal is to write happy, love/dance songs to win people over, or that they shouldn't write songs about the same subjects even though the songs are great because that just means they are lazy, these are very interesting points.

Michael is probably the only artist that I've seen who is criticized and called lazy for making songs about what's going on his life or how he feels.

 

[Nite Line]

A love song is a love song, it's for the ages, it's universal. You can write all kinds of songs about love. But a horror song is rare and then writing lyrics for it where the writer/singer is the ghoul dissing the press can only be done once. It's a one of idea. Every time you do it again, you're just repeating yourself. I have the same feelings with songs like we are the world, heal the world, people of the world etc. It's just the same song with different words and melody. MJ has written so many songs about being unfairly treated by the press, imo it got tiring and lazy. He was always angry in those songs it's an emotion that's not going to win many people over, unlike love songs or dance songs which instantly make people happy.

So it's okay to do endless love songs, but you can't do more than one song about the media?

You call MJ lazy for doing endless songs about media. In case you aren't aware MJ was treated worse than a criminal by the media. He had every right to be angry with the media and to attack them in his music. Do you wish Michael kept on doing joyful dance songs like Shake Your Body or Don't Stop Till You Get Enough for his entire career? His later songs showed not only his progression as an artist, but also reflected on his relationship with the media that continued to get worse. I'm glad that MJ didn't do endless love and dance songs forever, and actually tackled some really touchy subjects on more than one occasion.

And how do you criticise MJ for doing peace anthems? He cared about world peace, unity and togetherness. I'm glad that Michael's latter albums had songs of that nature. He let his music be his voice. He wasn't fake like most of the modern artists who claim to be woke, but yet the only type of songs they ever do are love and breakup songs.

As an artist, you biggest weapon is your music, which MJ wasn't scared to use to raise awareness.

 

[JichaelMackson]

You don't have to be angry with me, it's just my opinion. I think he should have said "**** it" at some point, for example after the 2005 trial where it was proven he was not a monster after all and that the media was wrong. But he was not me so he took another decision and he kept focussing on them while he had already beaten them.
Naturally I didn't have to go through what Michael had gone through so it's easy for me to say. But in the end they brought him down because he couldn't let it go. He had his say on HIStory about it why keep going on about it when you actually won the trial in 2005?

I'm not criticizing MJ for doing peace anthems but when you have done the same type of songs 3 or 4 times it gets repetitive. Again that's my opinion, I'm sorry if you don't like it.

Would I have liked MJ to continue his dance songs? Probably yes, guilty as charged.

That's all I have to say about it. I can sense I'm becoming distrusted yet again. That also gets tiring.

 

[JichaelMackson]

So it's okay to do endless love songs, but you can't do more than one song about the media?

No he can do more but with threatened he used an angle he already used on Is it Scary.

 

[Remington Steele]

I don't expect only masterpieces from MJ (or anyone else). Not because I'm lenient with him, but because I love "just fun" stuff too. I would be offended if Nite Line ended up on Thriller , but I'm glad it's still available as sometimes what I need is just lighthearted fun. I actually enjoy most of the outtake songs a lot, even if they aren't on par with the album material.

That's a great way to look at it.

Nobody is keeping you from explaining more about the meaning of Threatened :laughing:
(...)
Besides the meaning I just don't like the melody or music much

Regarding the melody I have mixed feelings, IMO it's both great and a little bit "annoying".
Don't you like the heavy bass line though? I absolutely love it!

You don't have to be angry with me, it's just my opinion. I think he should have said "**** it" at some point, for example after the 2005 trial where it was proven he was not a monster after all and that the media was wrong.

Problem is IMO: It must have been an absolute nightmare to go through you do not forget, even not until 2009 (which is quite a short time). Also, though he was aquitted, it doesn't mean it is over. Me alone heard many people say disgusting things about him after that.

 

[ozemouze]

I think he should have said "**** it" at some point, for example after the 2005 trial where it was proven he was not a monster after all and that the media was wrong. But he was not me so he took another decision and he kept focussing on them while he had already beaten them.

I'm not entirely sure what you talk about here, as, sadly, MJ didn't release anything after the trial in his short remaining lifetime, and the songs we know about he did in this period were all more laid back type and/or love songs.

I accept your opinion and I don't want to make you like Threatened at all , sorry if it sounded like this. Opinions are subjective and often there's no rationale behind them (e.g. I just like Cry despite not being a great song, but I can't really get into Butterflies for some reason, even though I recognise its genius), so it's of course useless to argue about tastes.

What made me respond was that you presented yours as some kind of universal claim (to be applied only when you feel like it though), instead of an opinion. E.g. "when you have done the same type of songs 3 or 4 times it gets repetitive" isn't an opinion, more like declaring a rule, which isn't even consistent as it's up to you to cherry-pick when to apply it. This is what I didn't understand and asked for elaboration, but instead of explaining you just repeated the same claims again.

Would I have liked MJ to continue his dance songs? Probably yes, guilty as charged.

That's perfectly fine, but you must admit there's some irony here: you complain about MJ dealing more than once with topics that were important to him and/or radically influenced his life, but find nothing wrong with dance songs done for the hundredth time.

I have nothing against love/dance songs, but personally I find it refreshing if the songs aren't just about love. But that's just my subjective taste/interest too.

That's all I have to say about it. I can sense I'm becoming distrusted yet again. That also gets tiring.

I'm sorry if you feel like this, but you shouldn't. :flowers: Accepting opinions goes both ways, and if someone asks you to elaborate something isn't an attack at all, just trying to engage in a conversation.

unlike love songs or dance songs which instantly make people happy.

I strongly disagree with the bolded part, as it can have the totally opposite effect on me. If I feel the "cheerfulness" of the song is forced and bland, or if I'm not in the mood it makes me completely edgy instead of happy.

So it's okay to do endless love songs, but you can't do more than one song about the media?

That's a mystery for me too. If I ever become a pop star, I'll release only love songs and enjoy the luxury of constantly getting away with it.

 

[JichaelMackson]

You are not taking on a aggressive stance against me ozemouze it is Nite Line but I'm probably overreacting. The thread asked for an opinion on threatened I gave mine and it seems like I have to explain why I don't like it which I have done but the arguments continue anyway. It feels like I have to proof myself all the time here unless I say nothing but positive things about MJ.

I understand like I said he had gone through a lot and I can't possible imagine how hard it must have been for him but then I see or hear him during the 70s or 80s and I see a vibrant happy, confident man with a big smile with infectious good music and it saddens that all of that was gone in the last part of his life. It's not that difficult to understand why I missed that part of MJ. They broke him and he couldn't set it aside MJ kept giving fuel to the press by attacking the media in his songs. He was fighting them while he imo had already beaten them.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

It’s always when opinions are presented as facts that discussions turn into arguments. Can we all agree to try our best to phrase our opinions in a way that they don’t sound like absolute truths? I think, this would improve our discussions a lot.

 

[JichaelMackson]

It’s always when opinions are presented as facts that discussions turn into arguments. Can we all agree to try our best to phrase our opinions in a way that they don’t sound like absolute truths? I think, this would improve our discussions a lot.

I don't want to present them as facts though, perhaps it appears that way but I have no idea about it. On message boards it's hard to show emotions, it's just words. I constantly misinterpret posts because I can't see what's behind those words. In a face to face meeting this would never have occurred.

There's also the lost in translation thing. English is not my native language. I try my very best to type logical phrases with variation in vocabulary but I guess I'm not very good at it. But I'm not very good at anything so this doesn't surprise me.

 

[ozemouze]

I understand like I said he had gone through a lot and I can't possible imagine how hard it must have been for him but then I see or hear him during the 70s or 80s and I see a vibrant happy, confident man with a big smile with infectious good music and it saddens that all of that was gone in the last part of his life. It's not that difficult to understand why I missed that part of MJ. They broke him and he couldn't set it aside MJ kept giving fuel to the press by attacking the media in his songs. He was fighting them while he imo had already beaten them.

I don't know if you realise, but this can be felt as a bit insensitive and selfish POV. "How unfortunate that MJ went through hell, because now he's not willing to constantly smile anymore, or sing only happy songs to make me happy like he used to." And before you feel attacked again: please don't, I'm quite sure that's not the case, only unfortunate wording, but saying things like "MJ kept giving fuel to the press by attacking the media" is a bit blaming the victim instead of calling out the offender, plus it's mixing cause and effect (it wasn't MJ who "attacked" the media, it was the other way around).

Let me be a bit more personal here: you said you weren't really around during the trial (I know you were already a fan, but didn't follow the case if I remember correctly). Well, many of us did, and it was horrible. And we were just outside observers, while MJ had to go through all this for one and a half year (he was arrested in November 2003 and the verdict came in June 2005), and to literally risk his life. He had to hear people - many whom he trusted, many whom he had helped - to lie horrible things about him. Then he had to realize that the press wouldn't report that these wintesses collapsed during cross examination by the defense, only their baseless accusations. Did you ever think about how he must felt and what he could say to his children on a day approximately 15 years ago, before going to the courthouse for the last time? And that he had only 4 years left for him (and his family) on this earth after that?

Sorry for being carried away a bit and getting all emotional, and I sincerely hope you understand it isn't directed at you, more like a general outburst of (usually repressed) feelings from many years ago (because of the "anniversary", I guess). An anniversary that I personally can't see as a "victory", because it cost too much.

I understand if you try to avoid the "dark side" of things, that's a strategy I often follow too, so sorry, everyone, for turning the topic sad a bit. But these things are still happening, and we have to reflect on them sometimes as otherwise we go mad. Who knows, maybe these songs in question were results of similar "outbursts" of MJ, between periods of being (or pretending to be) happy.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

I feel like a lot of this has to do with MJ evolving from an entertainer to an artist, meaning that his work grew from mostly fictional narratives into something that was a reflection of his personal experiences interwoven with a more general commentary on the world as he perceived it.

 

[JichaelMackson]

I think you have a valid point. I wish I had a higher level of understanding, I'm viewing things too simplistic, I always do, perhaps I lack emotional intelligence or intelligence overall. I'm going to take a break now because I feel stupid.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

What I was trying to say is, when you look at TDCAU, as one of the more obvious examples, MJ simultaneously tells a story of oppression and police brutality, putting himself in the shoes of every victim, while drawing from his own experience, which is where the energy seems to come from.

Or if you look at the song Bad, where he addresses gang violence and peer pressure, but also seems to interweave it with the rumors that he was losing connection to the black community, as well as the media reports on a true case where a student (I think) was beaten up by his former peers.

There are different ways to look at these songs, and the later in MJ’s catalog, the trickier it gets, in my opinion. Bad was quite obvious, the Black or White film had to be censored because people didn’t understand, and TDCAU was misunderstood to the point where the media called him an anti-semite.

I’m still working my way through the Invincible era songs, and Threatened is certainly worth looking at from different angles, but I also haven’t reached a conclusion yet. That’s nothing to feel stupid about, it’s a discovery journey.

 

[ozemouze]

Let me be a bit more personal here: you said you weren't really around during the trial (I know you were already a fan, but didn't follow the case if I remember correctly). Well, many of us did, and it was horrible. And we were just outside observers, while MJ had to go through all this for one and a half year (he was arrested in November 2003 and the verdict came in June 2005), and to literally risk his life. He had to hear people - many whom he trusted, many whom he had helped - to lie horrible things about him. Then he had to realize that the press wouldn't report that these wintesses collapsed during cross examination by the defense, only their baseless accusations. Did you ever think about how he must felt and what he could say to his children on a day approximately 15 years ago, before going to the courthouse for the last time? And that he had only 4 years left for him (and his family) on this earth after that?

I would like to clarify that this post wasn't targeted at JichaelMackson, or anyone else at all, and I wasn't trying to suggest that every fan must dive into that horrible period (it's really just negativity without any redeeming feature, unfortunately), sorry if it came across like that. It's nice to see "MJ vindicated" trending, but remembering the trial only brings back hurtful memories for me, as it was so unfair what he had to go through, for basically nothing.

I'm actually happy for any moment when we are able to celebrate (or criticise ) just the music and forget about the "rest", but it isn't always possible, unfortunately.

Sorry for the emotional outburst and the fftopic: (as usual).

 

[ChrisC]

It's funny though that serious music critics take that stance about Michael too. 'Oh he was great when he was happy and singing about dancing but when he started complaining and singing about the environment he went downhill'. Honestly I find it a blanket refusal to accept a black megastar as a serious artist.

It's sad really.

 

[ozemouze]

It's funny though that serious music critics take that stance about Michael too. 'Oh he was great when he was happy and singing about dancing but when he started complaining and singing about the environment he went downhill'. Honestly I find it a blanket refusal to accept a black megastar as a serious artist.

It's sad really.

They felt threatened by him.

Seriously though, close-minded critics without any individual thoughts shouldn't be taken seriously (doesn't matter how big name they are perhaps).

 

[ScreenOrigami]

They felt threatened by him.

I actually believe this is the case. Just check out how this Rolling Stone critic automatically assumes MJ was talking about himself in the song:

“There’s little story-telling or transforming music on frantic songs such as “Threatened,” in which Jackson assigns supernatural powers to himself”

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20180806210901/https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/invincible-251563/

Wouldn’t the sensible approach have been to take a look at what the current threats in the world were at the time, to find a context? Each and every first person narrative in MJ’s songs is always reduced by critics to “Oh, it’s about himself again. Yawn.”

Just imagine reading books with that mindset … :doh:

 

[ozemouze]

I actually believe this is the case. Just check out how this Rolling Stone critic automatically assumes MJ was talking about himself in the song:

“There’s little story-telling or transforming music on frantic songs such as “Threatened,” in which Jackson assigns supernatural powers to himself”

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20180806210901/https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/invincible-251563/

Wouldn’t the sensible approach have been to take a look at what the current threats in the world were at the time, to find a context? Each and every first person narrative in MJ’s songs is always reduced by critics to “Oh, it’s about himself again. Yawn.”

Just imagine reading books with that mindset … :doh:

To conclude such ridiculous assessment is a combination of closed mindsets and stereotypes IMO. Let's replace MJ with Bowie, and it will be suddenly unlikely that even the same critic would write about him in the same manner: "Bowie is in a delusional state of thinking about himself as an alien". BTW I think Bowie is a good counterpart to MJ in many sense, I see parallels between them as artists as well, and the praising of Bowie by the critics shows clearly how unfairly MJ and his work was treated (almost like what was celebrated in the case of Bowie was trashed when it concerned MJ).

But that's the Rolling Stone, so why should we be surprised. Totally in the "not to be taken seriously" category for me.

And I don't care about their reputation or important-role-in-shaping-rock-music at all, 1) they became as pedantic and inflexible as the culture they supposedly revolted against, 2) the whole phenomenon can be viewed from a less positive angle as well: they basically functioned as potentates deciding who's allowed to enter the pop-rock canon and who's not. Their constant ignoring and understating of MJ is a very good example of how "balanced" they did their work (like him or not, MJ is known almost everywhere around the world, he influenced countless other artists and members of the public, broke racial barriers, shaped several segments of pop culture, and just in recent months 3 of his songs became some sort of anthems reflecting the state of the world around us. And, those songs were chosen genuinely by the public, not assigned by potentates from above).

 

[ScreenOrigami]

"Bowie is in a delusional state of thinking about himself as an alien".

OMG, this is brilliant. I’m gonna steal that, if you don’t mind. :hysterical:

I agree with everything you say. They were actively trying to deny MJ access to their pop/rock olympus. And while they sometimes acknowledge that he opened the door for others, they portray him as some kind of elevator boy who’s never allowed to step out onto the top floor himself.

 

[ozemouze]

OMG, this is brilliant. I’m gonna steal that, if you don’t mind. :hysterical:

I agree with everything you say. They were actively trying to deny MJ access to their pop/rock olympus. And while they sometimes acknowledge that he opened the door for others, they portray him as some kind of elevator boy who’s never allowed to step out onto the top floor himself.

Sure, feel free to steal it.

I actually quite like your elevator allegory too , I can even imagine MJ pick up the idea and write an angry song about it, sounding both energetic and monotonous at the same time (imagine the dismay of the RS critics: "in a frantic turn, MJ transforms himself into an elevator"). Now that I think about it, the sound of Shout during the verses resembles a bit to an elevator engine. :lmao:

BTW Shout deserves a rediscovery and more praise as well!

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

It's funny though that serious music critics take that stance about Michael too. 'Oh he was great when he was happy and singing about dancing but when he started complaining and singing about the environment he went downhill'. Honestly I find it a blanket refusal to accept a black megastar as a serious artist.

It's sad really.

You know what's ironic about that? Things I do For You, Heartbreak Hotel, Can You Feel it, Billie Jean, Beat It, Be Not Always etc were hardly happy dance songs.

 

[ChrisC]

To conclude such ridiculous assessment is a combination of closed mindsets and stereotypes IMO. Let's replace MJ with Bowie, and it will be suddenly unlikely that even the same critic would write about him in the same manner: "Bowie is in a delusional state of thinking about himself as an alien". BTW I think Bowie is a good counterpart to MJ in many sense, I see parallels between them as artists as well, and the praising of Bowie by the critics shows clearly how unfairly MJ and his work was treated (almost like what was celebrated in the case of Bowie was trashed when it concerned MJ).

100% yes!!

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Sure, feel free to steal it.

I actually quite like your elevator allegory too , I can even imagine MJ pick up the idea and write an angry song about it, sounding both energetic and monotonous at the same time (imagine the dismay of the RS critics: "in a frantic turn, MJ transforms himself into an elevator"). Now that I think about it, the sound of Shout during the verses resembles a bit to an elevator engine. :lmao:

BTW Shout deserves a rediscovery and more praise as well!

Sorry for the late reply, I had to actually find the time to go back to the song and listen to it a couple of times. Yes, it really deserves more praise! The lyrics are fantastic, too.

I’ll also never look at an elevator the same way now, after our conversation. That GIF is hilarious.

 

[BadAlicia]

I think it is my favourite song or one of few favourite songs on this album. But I must to agree that this song can be seen badly by anti fans because of lyrics.