Thriller 40th Anniversary

Agreed. I felt like it cheapened the songs and took away something from them. Elton should have never done that imo. Anything to stay current I guess. Made me cringe first time I heard the song with Britney. Please don’t do that to MJ ever.
MJ's musical craftsmanship has the better DNA for modernization. People don't love the remixes and they're not all great, but never have I ever really thought they made MJ sound like some ancient fart from the past. He is the father of modern music essentially, he can take part in whatever he wants.
 
MJ's musical craftsmanship has the better DNA for modernization. People don't love the remixes and they're not all great, but never have I ever really thought they made MJ sound like some ancient fart from the past. He is the father of modern music essentially, he can take part in whatever he wants.
But who’s to say what he want?
 
But who’s to say what he want?
Who's to say he didn't want it. Or would care.

This discussion has been going in circles forever. The estate will how whatever they feel, we can feel how we feel and choose to pay or not.

There are clues MJ was not bothered by the process of posthumous work (Minnie Ripperton, Biggie Smalls), but there's also possible clues he didn't care for others touching his work (which, we all have to admit, started to lessen and change on its own as he lived as well, he stopped concerning himself with "remixes" so much), so.
 
MJ didn't like when his songs were remixed but he'd still do it reluctantly, T25 is the biggest proof of that. It's safe to say that if he was alive today he'd be collaborating with modern day artists seeing how that's what he did with singers/producers like Akon, Will.I.Am, RedOne, Kanye West in the 2000's and they were huge back then.
 
I have a sneaky feeling MJ would love it if his music still got attention and rightly so. It is too snobbish to not let people use your music.

It is like Metallica, they refused for decades to have their songs show up on tv or film until they approved to use Master of Puppets for Stranger Things. It is an absolute win win situation. You get money and attention from a new audience.

Artists are always thinking they created something untouchable
 
I have a sneaky feeling MJ would love it if his music still got attention and rightly so. It is too snobbish to not let people use your music.

It is like Metallica, they refused for decades to have their songs show up on tv or film until they approved to use Master of Puppets for Stranger Things. It is an absolute win win situation. You get money and attention from a new audience.

Artists are always thinking they created something untouchable
Film has to go and mention Metallica lol noooooooo
but i totally get what you mean
 
It should be noted that sometime during the late 2000s, when Michael found out that clubs were still playing his music, he was very happy about this. He had assumed he was mostly forgotten and was elated to be proven wrong.

Of course we will never know what he would've and wouldn't have liked about what they're doing with his music now. But at the end of the day, I think he'd be ecstatic to know that he still has fans all around the world.

And not everyone has to like everything, obviously. Tastes differ. I also have some stern words to say with regards to the estate. But at the end of the day, I just want to celebrate Michael Jackson, the artist and human, and the legacy he has left us.
 
MJ didn't like when his songs were remixed but he'd still do it reluctantly, T25 is the biggest proof of that. It's safe to say that if he was alive today he'd be collaborating with modern day artists seeing how that's what he did with singers/producers like Akon, Will.I.Am, RedOne, Kanye West in the 2000's and they were huge back then.
I always thought the “MJ only did remixes because he had to” claim was bogus, even when it came directly from his mouth. His own actions contradict that—releasing them as single B-sides since as early as Thriller, pushing for the T25 remixes in lieu of album outtakes, etc. I wouldn’t call it reluctance as much as an outright willingness.
 
I think at the end of the day, MJ was a lover of the process of making music. Writing and penning lyrical prose, and crafting incredible sonic sounds. And he wanted to continue to cultivate incredible sounds because he was dedicated to that.

That's the biggest problem with me & the posthumous tracks: they play it too safely. In fact, everything has been very self referential, homage Jam here, harken back to Off The Wall there. Here's an extravagant mural for a cover, when would MJ ever? He was always avant garde. The music they make in his name should be as indie as can be, some of the craziest most unbelievable sounds the human ear has ever heard. They're not trying to outdo MJs best work but they really should be trying to do just that, shouldn't they? That's how we know they're taking it as seriously as can be.
I always thought the “MJ only did remixes because he had to” claim was bogus, even when it came directly from his mouth. His own actions contradict that—releasing them as single B-sides since as early as Thriller, pushing for the T25 remixes in lieu of album outtakes, etc. I wouldn’t call it reluctance as much as an outright willingness.
MJ and remixes for me are a integral duo. Some of the best moments I've had musically is rehearing his music in new ways and with new palettes. A lot of it is still fun, and still enduring.
 
I always thought the “MJ only did remixes because he had to” claim was bogus, even when it came directly from his mouth. His own actions contradict that—releasing them as single B-sides since as early as Thriller, pushing for the T25 remixes in lieu of album outtakes, etc. I wouldn’t call it reluctance as much as an outright willingness.
The T25 YouTube doc had footage of him in the studio with Will working on the remixes. MJ was rocking. He liked it.
 
Sometimes reading these discussions I feel like people are talking like MJ is still here lol. Him doing something himself is not the same as his estate doing it and it never will be. In the same vein, him doing something I don't like doesn't mean I need to be happy with or think it's right that they are doing it.
 
Sometimes reading these discussions I feel like people are talking like MJ is still here lol. Him doing something himself is not the same as his estate doing it and it never will be. In the same vein, him doing something I don't like doesn't mean I need to be happy with or think it's right that they are doing it.
Well, liking it is not the same as accepting that there is a precedent.

And his estate doing something is not him doing it, true. But again, they have the legal authority, with no creative restraints, because MJ never said anything in his will. Maybe that's a blessing, or it's also a curse, but really, it just sounds no different than MJ in the 2000s. So we're right back to where we start. As always.

Wanna talk about Invincible some more?
 
I don't consider Mj personally making remixes with Will.I.Am as a "precedent" for what the posthumous work has been, if that's what you're trying to say.
That's not really my precedent either. I'd say letting Teddy Riley rework Dangerous (the song) to what it is, allowing the majority of Invincible to be an automated music making process, and the entire function of Blood on the Dance Floor to be better precedents. And the general process of just reworking songs. Barring Xscape, which is perhaps the extreme far right version of what we're talking about and has an entirely different purpose than "completion".
 
That's not really my precedent either. I'd say letting Teddy Riley rework Dangerous (the song) to what it is, allowing the majority of Invincible to be an automated music making process, and the entire function of Blood on the Dance Floor to be better precedents. And the general process of just reworking songs. Barring Xscape, which is perhaps the extreme far right version of what we're talking about and has an entirely different purpose than "completion".

You keep talking about stuff MJ personally did when he was alive as if it's the same thing as what people are doing with his music after his death.
 
While I’m generally in the camp of finishing the music as opposed to releasing it incomplete, I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say that MJ’s habit of passing existing demos to new producers somehow equates to it being okay to completely rework his music posthumously. That would only qualify as precedent if he wasn’t an active participant in the production process, which he was.
 
You keep talking about stuff MJ personally did when he was alive as if it's the same thing as what people are doing with his music after his death.

I consider it the same because legally, it's supposed to represent his interests. Because yes, he's not alive. But you're saying without the final say so then it'll never be the same. Which is fine, I guess, but then I don't know what you expect from posthumous releases. Genuinely, I would like to understand what you would rather they proceed to do. Just anniversaries and a box set?

Also, I never said they were the same, I said they sound the same. To me they might as well be, Thriller 25 and everything after that basically fall into the same camp, of not being proper work. MJs discography is complete, fully and comprehensively, to me. Everything else is just extra add ONS.
 
While I’m generally in the camp of finishing the music as opposed to releasing it incomplete, I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say that MJ’s habit of passing existing demos to new producers somehow equates to it being okay to completely rework his music posthumously. That would only qualify as precedent if he wasn’t an active participant in the production process, which he was.
I was under the impression that at times he was less involved. That wasn't my strongest case of evidence, I admit. I mainly was saying that the music was reworked so it's not alien to the concept, the difference is he's no longer alive to give his final stamp.

A better example would've been that Farewell my Summer Love actually. That was a collection of songs they just kinda cobbled together. Far less high intensity though.

I say it's not, not Okay, because they can't honestly claim that it's the finished work of Michael Jackson. They can alter and rework the songs but they'll never be *the* versions, they're just alternate versions alongside. In that sense, Xscape was more honest than Michael, which was the shoddiest record I've seen, strictly because it tried to pass itself off as the record "MJ would've made", instead of what it was, a bunch of songs put together.
 
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To me, the key is transparency & honesty.

MJ didn't leave specific demands regarding his unreleased & incomplete work, so in the end it will always be anyones guess.

IMHO, we as admirers & lovers of his art are lucky for each & every song & each and every peak into his works that we are getting from MJ's vault.

In regards to releases of new/unreleased material, passed off as "new album" like with the MICHAEL (7 song version) & XSCAPE albums, I'd say this:
- both approaches are fine & understandable
- just be completely transparent about the origins of the songs and process you are applying
- ALWAYS include MJ's original & final/most complete version of the songs

In regards to anniversary editions like Bad25 & Thriller40:
- release the songs that in earnest belong to the respective era, or even better to the respective album sessions
- release the version of the song how it was worked on & sounded in that very era / considered for that very album
- be completely transparent about the origins of the songs and explain if there are earlier or later & more complete versions


What I would propose for the future:

The times have changed & I agree with what Sony CEO Rob Stringer said in his 2018 interview: The music business now is a track based/single based environment. To correspond with that development I would structure new MJ releases differently in the future:

- release one new song at a time
- release not more than 2 to 3 songs per year (can you guys imagine how exciting it would be to get a new song every 4 month??)
- release a digital EP with all the different versions of the song (demos, work in progress, remixes, restructures, whatever, everything)
- all of the above made points regarding transparency & honesty apply of course
- If a song has too few MJ vocals, fill in the gaps with a thoughtful selected duet partner (ALWAYS release the "only MJ" version of the song additionally)
- create or determine one main version of the song (this can at one time be the OG MJ version, if it's complete enough & you wanna go retro, another time it can be the updated version, or even the duet version)


But ONE thing PLEASE:
DON'T let us wait for a new MJ song another 8 years.
And don't let leakers quench the thirst for more/new MJ stuff.
Work with producers & co-writers of MJ to get the material out, that they have. Come to a an agreement , come to a compromise!
 
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To me, the key is transparency & honesty.

MJ didn't leave specific demands regarding his unreleased & incomplete work, so in the end it will always be anyones guess.

IMHO, we as admirers & lovers of his art are lucky for each & every song & each and every peak into his works that we are getting from MJ's vault.

In regards to releases of new/unreleased material, passed off as "new album" like with the MICHAEL (7 song version) & XSCAPE albums, I'd say this:
- both approaches are fine & understandable
- just be completely transparent about the origins of the songs and process you are applying
- ALWAYS include MJ's original & final/most complete version of the songs

In regards to anniversary editions like Bad25 & Thriller40:
- release the songs that in earnest belong to the respective era, or even better to the respective album sessions
- release the version of the song how it was worked on & sounded in that very era / considered for that very album
- be completely transparent about the origins of the songs and explain if there are earlier or later & more complete versions


What I would propose for the future:

The times have changed & I agree with what Sony CEO Rob Stringer said in his 2018 interview: The music business now is a track based/single based environment. To correspond with that development I would structure new MJ releases differently in the future:

- release one new song at a time
- release not more than 2 to 3 songs per year (can you guys imagine how exciting it would be to get a new song every 4 month??)
- release a digital EP with all the different versions of the song (demos, work in progress, remixes, restructures, whatever, everything)
- all of the above made points regarding transparency & honesty apply of course
- If a song has too few MJ vocals, fill in the gaps with a thoughtful selected duet partner (ALWAYS release the "only MJ" version of the song additionally)
- create or determine one main version of the song (this can at one time be the OG MJ version, if it's complete enough & you wanna go retro, another time it can be the updated version, or even the duet version)


But ONE thing PLEASE:
DON'T let us wait for a new MJ song another 8 years.
And don't let leakers quench the thirst for more/new MJ stuff.
Work with producers & co-writers of MJ to get the material out, that they have. Come to a an agreement , come to a compromise!
Everything you've said, I agree with or can otherwise accept.

The Xscape approach was the better approach and one that should satisfy everyone. There really is a lot of confusion on my part why people are debating things so hard. It's the best of both worlds approach pretty much.
 
Everything you've said, I agree with or can otherwise accept.

The Xscape approach was the better approach and one that should satisfy everyone. There really is a lot of confusion on my part why people are debating things so hard. It's the best of both worlds approach pretty much.
I’ve noticed three common complaints with XSCAPE:

1.) The remixes are being promoted as the definitive editions of the songs, while the demos are relegated to bonus tracks.
2.) The demos are presented in embarrassingly subpar quality, and were clearly given less attention and care than the remixes.
3.) The demos appear to quite literally be the ORIGINAL demos—meaning, the earliest versions of each song.

I think point #3 is kind of nit picky and ridiculous, but points #1 and #2 are fully valid. XSCAPE had better intentions, but the execution was poor. One of the many reasons why I prefer MICHAEL, faults and all. I’d rather an album that stays (mostly) true to the original recordings, than one that shows outright contempt for them.
 
I’ve noticed three common complaints with XSCAPE:

1.) The remixes are being promoted as the definitive editions of the songs, while the demos are relegated to bonus tracks.
2.) The demos are presented in embarrassingly subpar quality, and were clearly given less attention and care than the remixes.
3.) The demos appear to quite literally be the ORIGINAL demos—meaning, the earliest versions of each song.

I think point #3 is kind of nit picky and ridiculous, but points #1 and #2 are fully valid. XSCAPE had better intentions, but the execution was poor. One of the many reasons why I prefer MICHAEL, faults and all. I’d rather an album that stays (mostly) true to the original recordings, than one that shows outright contempt for them.
Without turning this into another Xscape apology thread, I've heard all these complaints and they've never rang true for me, because:

1. That's how the projects always been. We already knew that. And that is the case for every posthumous song that wasn't finished. Is Hollywood Tonight complete by MJ standards because Teddy added poetry on top it? Would half a Minnie Ripperton song be done thanks to another artist singing the other half? Almost all posthumous songs are inauthentic, some simply invite the feeling of "completion" more. Mac Miller's Circles or David Bowie's BlackStar is the quality of release most deceased artists wish they could get. Michael was so far removed from both. But though it's still true, I'll say Akon did the best job of anybody, even if Hold my Hand isn't my favorite song. He truly made the song whole.

I think the bigger argument is that Xscape is not true to MJs style. It's basically a Timbaland album, completely unfamiliar to him. Basically it's the 20/20 Experience 2.5 by Justin Timberlake. But that was by design, and that guy owes everything to Michael, so it goes both ways I guess. Depending on the songs themselves, even in their original incarnations, they're all out there, away from MJs "norm". America samples, a soft ballad right before the hard edged, angular, Bad era, a Paul Anka piano ditty, a Latin Tango Smooth Criminal sequel, a Public Service Announcement sequel to Abortion Papers, a cloudy, atmospheric ballad, a story about a housewife in ailing, and another Invincible outtake about the media. And none of them were on the lists of songs MJ wanted to finish if I remember rightly. But anyway. They are all songs that take a bit of adjustment to getting used to. Musically the new sounds are more uniform and at least, dance oriented. Not that it's great that they are all the same, and still ultimately a bit plain. There were much wilder sounds and artists out there than, Stargate.

In addition, the deluxe means you get all the demoes. Original Versions, as they are called. That's quite a lot of airtime and doesn't suggest they're second string. The standard 8 only version didn't sell much at all. And I heard the original version of A Place With No Name on the radio way more than I heard the new version. But when a song was put to radio, it chatted, and it charted because people flocked to it. Like Chicago, and Loving You, and definitely Love Never Felt So Good.

Now for the other 2 points:

2. I can agree, but at the same time, I don't. This is an audiophile thing, the songs sound fine to me. I do care about the quality, and I get that there's tape warp on Loving You and maybe the mastering isn't always the best, but really, it's silly. All 2000s releases sound bad to adequate. It's no changes here.


3. That actually did bother me, I liked the later versions more. But it's a decent archival project and we'll certainly hear other versions of these songs, you can bet money on that.
 
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