Thriller was the downfall of Michael

[aqwsz]

After the succes of Thriller MJ got obsessed with creating a bigger album, he only wanted sales and nr 1 hits. It robbed him of creating more critically acclaimed albums. In my opinion he needed to continue doing what he did on Destiny/Off the Wall for a couple more albums. Just making carefree dance/soul songs.
So basically I think he lost his creativity after Thriller. I would have liked him doing some more soul singing like Marvin Gaye.
If there is anything left in the vaults of his late 70s/early 80s recording sessions I'd love to hear them.

That said my favorite album is Dangerous so I'm probably not making sense :tongue:

 

[ManBehindTheMirrOr - Dona]

I absolutly don't agree with you. I love ALL his songs including maaaany The Jacksons /Jackson 5 songs very much.
For me he couldn't have done it better.
I know and understand that he holded some amazing songs back in all these years for his biggest dream; creating and directing great and powerful movies.
His downfall was Sony with Invincible what is really sad til today.

 

[dam2040]

This place has gone insane what is this nonsense

 

[1nn5]

Thriller made Bad, Dangerous and HIStory underrated. He caused "injustice" for them.

 

[ozemouze]

That said my favorite album is Dangerous so I'm probably not making sense :tongue:

:hysterical:

Well, my fave albums are History/Dangerous/Bad in an always changing order (and I might even put Invincible before Thriller on my list, with OTW being the last), so I obviously don't agree with the concept of this thread. Especially as I think of Bad as a sort of a creative triumph for him (with Dangerous being "almost perfect" and History the most powerful).

Also, I wouldn't identify losing creativity with not making much more carefree dance/soul songs either (not that there's anything wrong with them, but it's just a strange definition), and MJ being my fave singer I expect much more from him than just these kind of songs.

Having said that, I would have loved he had released much more albums, as he obviously intended to, and I'm sure we would have get many "just fun" songs as well, and I would also be happily jamming to them.

But at least we agree on Be Not Always, and thanks for diverting my attention towards music instead of what's going on now.

 

[analogue]

I disagree that he lost his creativity after Thriller. If anything I'd say he got even more creative after that.

 

[AG5050]

Couldn’t disagree more. I’d agree Bad definitely feels like an album designed as a hit making machine, which it absolutely was. However Dangerous and History are 2 of his most creative bodies of work IMO

 

[Nite Line]

I disagree that he lost his creativity after Thriller. If anything he got even more creative after Thriller. How can you say that songs he wrote and create after Thriller such Stranger In Moscow, Morphine, Will You Be There, Who Is It, Tabloid Junkie weren't creative? What about all the creative music videos he did after Thriller? What about his creative dance routines and performances after Thriller? Thriller was the downfall of Michael in the sense that it made him the biggest artist in the world, which meant that he became an easy target for the media to write lies about him and make money. But Thriller wasn't the downfall of Michael in the sense that he lost his creative touch after Thriller. I compltely disagree with that.

 

[aqwsz]

I too find Dangerous very creative as it's my fave album but I question how much of it came from MJ's mind. He worked on all the tracks with several other people also getting credits. Michael's true talent besides dancing and singing is how he arranges the vocals. How he mixes in self sung background vocals with the chorus is masterful. He is also a master of distorting and even making up words too, fitting in his trademark vocal sounds.
But was he lyrically the most important part of the dangerous album? I doubt it and without Riley he wouldn't have been able to create that killer sound either I think.

After a 5 year wait, bad was a disappointment, creating hits just to stay relevant while he could have written a thematically great album with a message. He put too much pressure on himself. Since thriller he was always looking for hits which is not what he really likes as he stated several times that he never listens to pop music at home. He could have thought out of the box and create something truly unique.

Anyway I'm just nitpicking really but I really think he had more in his locker than just pop songs.

 

[DuranDuran]

hits

After a 5 year wait, bad was a disappointment, creating hits just to stay relevant

Isn't this pretty much what his entire career was about? The Jackson 5 started on Motown and the label's motto was "the sound of young America" in the 1960s. Berry Gordy was mostly about making hits and so pushed more pop sounding acts like The Supremes & The Miracles. Gordy didn't want to release What's Goin' On by Marvin Gaye because he didn't like the song and didn't think it would be a hit and would hurt Marvin's "ladies man" image. It's not like Mike was about making less commercial music like the free jazz of people like Ornette Coleman, Sun Ra, & John Coletrane. Mike's heroes were showbiz performers like Sammy Davis Jr & Gene Kelly and the soul singers at the Apollo Theater such as James Brown who put on a big show.

 

[83magic]

i hardly see 'destiny' being praised by critics.. if it's mentioned at all, it's usually only for 'shake your body' and 'blame it on the boogie'. half the album is made up of painful lamentations of adolescence. the only analysis I've seen of that is from fans.

fun, light-hearted music in general is rarely respected by critics (and some of the public/fans). in fact, the Jackson 5 were dismissed as 'bubble-gum soul' for this reason.

an artist should be first concerned with pleasing themselves. how can they do that whilst trying to fit into the perceptions of others?

having said that, i think 'thriller' had the best balance of light and dark. hard and soft. afterwards, the darkness and hardness intensified to the point where it was overwhelming. there were various reasons for this of course..

 

[aqwsz]

Re: hits

Isn't this pretty much what his entire career was about? The Jackson 5 started on Motown and the label's motto was "the sound of young America" in the 1960s. Berry Gordy was mostly about making hits and so pushed more pop sounding acts like The Supremes & The Miracles. Gordy didn't want to release What's Goin' On by Marvin Gaye because he didn't like the song and didn't think it would be a hit and would hurt Marvin's "ladies man" image. It's not like Mike was about making less commercial music like the free jazz of people like Ornette Coleman, Sun Ra, & John Coletrane. Mike's heroes were showbiz performers like Sammy Davis Jr & Gene Kelly and the soul singers at the Apollo Theater such as James Brown who put on a big show.

Berry Gordy was wrong though. What's going on became a hit and the album in itself had 2 more super hits. Not too mention how ****ing great that album in a whole is.
That's the kind of musical statement I think MJ had in himself. I would have liked him pursuing that.
Also James Brown played with a fantastic backing band, the kind that MJ should have played with. He had the funk too! That small cameo at James Brown's concert is unreal, soulful and with dance , nothing theatrical.

I'm still happy with what we've got , make no mistake but still I'm left wondering, wat if....

 

[aqwsz]

i hardly see 'destiny' being praised by critics.. if it's mentioned at all, it's usually only for 'shake your body' and 'blame it on the boogie'. half the album is made up of painful lamentations of adolescence. the only analysis I've seen of that is from fans.

fun, light-hearted music in general is rarely respected by critics (and some of the public/fans). in fact, the Jackson 5 were dismissed as 'bubble-gum soul' for this reason.

an artist should be first concerned with pleasing themselves. how can they do that whilst trying to fit into the perceptions of others?

having said that, i think 'thriller' had the best balance of light and dark. hard and soft. afterwards, the darkness and hardness intensified to the point where it was overwhelming. there were various reasons for this of course..

It did get good ratings at the time especially in combination with the great destiny tour but yes it is kind of a forgotten album. I honestly thought it would get a revival in 2009 but it never happened. You don't like it personally?
I think it's fantastic, really funky and it contains one of my favorite ballads in "push me away".

 

[ozemouze]

I too find Dangerous very creative as it's my fave album but I question how much of it came from MJ's mind.

Only less then half of the songs on Thriller/OTW were written by MJ, so I still don't see the point.
Sometimes it's hard to esteem the influences of the contributors, so let's say every album is a team effort, I have no problem with that. So what can be valued are the albums itself, and the later ones - and a lot of unreleased songs - were at least as creative as Thriller (I would say even more, but each to his own ).

But to call Bad a disappointment?! :girl_tantrum: No.

 

[aqwsz]

Only less then half of the songs on Thriller/OTW were written by MJ, so I still don't see the point.
Sometimes it's hard to esteem the influences of the contributors, so let's say every album is a team effort, I have no problem with that. So what can be valued are the albums itself, and the later onesm - and a lot of unreleased songs - were at least as creative as Thriller (I would say even more, but each to his own ).

But to call Bad a disappointment?! :girl_tantrum: No.

That's true but on Dangerous he only did 2 songs completely solo out of 14 (I'm not entirely sure but still) on thriller and off the wall he was responsible for the greatest and most memorable hits. He was able to produce quality like billie jean, beat it, don't stop till you get enough and working day and night. It's pretty phenomenal. I think the record company didn't trust him to do more. I'm pretty sure he could have managed without Temperton.

 

[ozemouze]

i hardly see 'destiny' being praised by critics.. if it's mentioned at all, it's usually only for 'shake your body' and 'blame it on the boogie'. half the album is made up of painful lamentations of adolescence. the only analysis I've seen of that is from fans.

Destiny was brilliant. Might be underrated (I'm not sure how it was received at the time).
I've mentioned here already that my "dream first adult solo album" would be a combination of the best songs from Destiny/OTW/Triumph.

Berry Gordy was wrong though. What's going on became a hit and the album in itself had 2 more super hits. Not too mention how ****ing great that album in a whole is.
That's the kind of musical statement I think MJ had in himself. I would have liked him pursuing that.
Also James Brown played with a fantastic backing band, the kind that MJ should have played with. He had the funk too! That small cameo at James Brown's concert is unreal, soulful and with dance , nothing theatrical.

I'm still happy with what we've got , make no mistake but still I'm left wondering, wat if....

Oh I think I see more clearly now what you've meant.
I agree in a way that it was much more in MJ - sadly things didn't really turn out how he planned. But the problem isn't with the later albums IMO, but the ones that were never materialised.

 

[analogue]

That's true but on Dangerous he only did 2 songs completely solo out of 14 (I'm not entirely sure but still)

On Dangerous he wrote and composed
1. Heal The World
2. Black Or White (minus the rap lyrics)
3. Who Is It
4. Will You Be There

And while Teddy Riley is giving a co-credit, it's been said that In The Closet was pretty much all Michael's. But I'm not 100% sure

 

[DuranDuran]

Re: hits

Berry Gordy was wrong though. What's going on became a hit and the album in itself had 2 more super hits. Not too mention how ****ing great that album in a whole is.
That's the kind of musical statement I think MJ had in himself. I would have liked him pursuing that.
Also James Brown played with a fantastic backing band, the kind that MJ should have played with. He had the funk too! That small cameo at James Brown's concert is unreal, soulful and with dance , nothing theatrical.

I'm still happy with what we've got , make no mistake but still I'm left wondering, wat if....

Isn't that what U2 does, yet Bono tends to get criticized for preaching. That kind of message music is not really mainstream popular today anyway. The audience that was around for What's Going On is different than the one today. That was not long after the hippy era of peace and love. The boomer era hippies were the ones going for Bob Dylan & other folk rock singers & bands who had social topics in their songs.

 

[DPW]

Thriller made Bad, Dangerous and HIStory underrated. He caused "injustice" for them.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[KOPV]

saying Thriller is the downfall of Michael Jackson is pointing out the fact that with success comes the chance of a downfall. That's every succesful person!

It's hard to fall off the floor..

 

[83magic]

It did get good ratings at the time especially in combination with the great destiny tour but yes it is kind of a forgotten album. I honestly thought it would get a revival in 2009 but it never happened. You don't like it personally?
I think it's fantastic, really funky and it contains one of my favorite ballads in "push me away".

I've seen critics praise the musicianship of 'destiny' (again, usually 'shake your body'), but ignore the theme of the overall album. this even happened in the 'off the wall' documentary. same goes for the 'off the wall' album, but I can understand that to be fair..

aside from 'blame it on the boogie', I only like 'that's what you get for being polite' - which I believe was the b side to the uk 7 inch vinyl. i'm all for songs that are actually about something - especially ones outside of the romantic/relationship theme, but the music and the song itself has to grab me. I didn't feel that with 'destiny'... I appreciate how experimental and balanced it was though. 'that's what you get for being polite' basically summed up half the album. I didn't need 3 other songs saying the same thing. the song matched the conflict in the lyrics of trying to maintain a happy illusion and supressing painful emotions. after the little instrumental, the mask slips and a tug of war between the two continue until the fade. I honestly see it as a sequel to 'blues away'. I love how it's sunny and melodic I can tell that jamiroquai were inspired by this when they did 'if I like it, I do it'. I found the other songs to be either overlong and repetitive ('shake your body'/'all night dancin'), or musically inaccessible ('destiny'/'bless his soul'). 'blame it on the boogie' is the only one that feels like a classic, and played to their strengths as a group.

in terms of the tour, I prefer whichever leg the new orleans concert was from. or the footage from Sylvia chase. for me, that was the first 'real' concert with costume changes and illusions. wasn't this leg known as the 'off the wall' tour? I wouldn't be surprised as so many songs from that album were performed! I would love to see just one full hq professionally shot performance of 'don't stop til you get enough'! and maybe 'blame it on the boogie'..

 

[83magic]

i'll just add that any artist that is signed to a major label, and makes music as a primary source of income, cares about record sales. otherwise they'd stay underground and do it as a side hobby. that's not to say that you can't keep your integrity and be popular at the same time.

 

[83magic]

Destiny was brilliant. Might be underrated (I'm not sure how it was received at the time).
I've mentioned here already that my "dream first adult solo album" would be a combination of the best songs from Destiny/OTW/Triumph.

'goin' places' is my favourite from them. I just love the vibrant optimism of it all so many of those songs deserved to be hits; 'goin' places', 'jump for joy', 'do what you wanna', 'even though your gone'.. I also like the vocal arrangements. although Michael sings almost everything as a lead, the brothers are still given plenty to do in the background, and are strong as a unit throughout. the songs don't sound like solo recordings for the most part. I can't say the same for future albums..

I think the jacksons era is glossed over because of the name change, and lack of hits in comparison to the Jackson 5. it's a shame because it was a crucial part of Michael's development as an artist overall.

 

[ManBehindTheMirrOr - Dona]

I love all the first four Jacksons albums very much. And think the first two are very underrated.
The Goin' Places album has my favorite Jackson 5/The Jacksons Albumcover. Great album!
Motownera/The Jacksons songs gets me always very quickly in a very good moon. Love to listen to them besides MJs later work.

 

[Mikky Dee]

saying Thriller is the downfall of Michael Jackson is pointing out the fact that with success comes the chance of a downfall. That's every succesful person!

It's hard to fall off the floor..

Thank you and I totally agree. "Thriller" is Michael's magnum opus and I think it's disrespectful, in a way, to call it a downfall. That theory was just an idea proposed by some writer, years ago and people have perpetuated it, ever since. I don't think Michael would have ever viewed it as a downfall - he was proud of what it achieved and it gave him a springboard from which to continue to create. It gave him "clout" in the industry as a solo artist and enabled him greater creative freedom and independence, later on.

 

[aqwsz]

But how do you follow an album like thriller? You can't but MJ thought he could...After thriller he had proven himself, being upset that off the wall didn't win the grammy.
Watching footage of the 70s to 1984 he always looked happy, relaxed and confident. I think that's also why he made his critically best received albums.
For a start he should have ditched Quincy already after thriller.
I wished he could have done something with Marvin Gaye but yeah obviously that wasn't possible :-(

 

[DuranDuran]

For a start he should have ditched Quincy already after thriller. I wished he could have done something with Marvin Gaye but yeah obviously that wasn't possible :-(

Why? The Beatles never replaced George Martin, unless you count Phil Spector remixing the songs on Let It Be. The original tracks were still produced by Martin.

I don't picture Mike with the sound of Marvin's last album Midnight Love or the one that came out after Marvin died. I also don't see Mike doing the more sexual material Marvin was known for, which has more in common with Rick James & Prince than Mike. I think if he was going to work with someone other than Quincy, it should have been someone more current like Roger Troutman, Kashif, Arthur Baker, Shep Pettibone, or El DeBarge. Teddy Riley was a modern act at the time of Dangerous.

 

[8701girl]

Thriller made michael the man we all love so i dont understand why you think its a downfall of him and his career

 

[mj_frenzy]

For a start he should have ditched Quincy already after thriller.

Why? The Beatles never replaced George Martin, unless you count Phil Spector remixing the songs on Let It Be. The original tracks were still produced by Martin.

In fact, that was impossible.

Quincy Jones was contractually obliged to make a third (& final) album with him after ‘Thriller’.

 

[DuranDuran]

In fact, that was impossible.

Quincy Jones was contractually obliged to make a third (& final) album with him after ‘Thriller’.

What about Mike wanting to collaborate with Kraftwerk? Since they produced their own records, I wonder would they have worked with Quincy.