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What made Invincible such an expensive album ?

Fiona said:
He did avoid starring in the Cry video
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He refused to appear in it because he didn't want it to be released as a single in the first place. He wanted Unbreakable. Sony thought it would be a good idea to release Cry probably because of the September 11 attacks.
 
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Fiona said:
Michael didn't promote the album because it was not a project he was entirely happy with.
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Entirely false. Also record company is in charge of promoting the album, not the artist. Only thing that artist can do is go on tour. And he didn't want to tour, especially in US. Sony cancelled the promotion. What could he do after that? Alone, without support from his/ex record company? Nothing.
 
I will have to say, I can't understand why Mike told Sony that this would be his last album, on the eve of its release. He should have kept that quite. He didn't appear in Cry because it wasn't his choice of single.

Off the top of my head,
•The album cost too much.
•It missed a number of deadlines.
•Mike told them it was his last.
•Sony refused to release Unbreakable & budget a 22 minute short film.
•Sony refused to promote it knowing it was his last & it having cost to much to produce.
•Sony refused to use the 30th Anniversary special as an opportunity to promote the album.
•Sony refused to release Butterflies as a physical single.
•Sony refused to release What More Can I Give.
•Mike's public protest in London finished any possibility of Sony having anything else to do with the album.
 
Fully agree with Matt, I wholly think he wasn't a well man in every sense in 2001. His appearances and behaviour were increasingly bizarre and the Sony protest and Motolla devil insinuations were just awful and symbolic of a man not fully in his own mind.

Add to this his appearance that year and I sympathise with any reluctance to fork out more millions on the project.

I still say it would have been more successful with WH as lead single with a simpler video followed by Unbreakable, Threatened and Butterflies/Heartbreaker.
 
Reading all this just makes me sad. Beneath all the controversy, turmoil and aggravation lies a really great album. So tragic that it became a victim of casualties.
 
His tirade against Tommy Motolla was embarrassing on his part. Probably one of the few times I didn't agree with Michael.
 
I agree he wasn't himself & hopped up on gawd knows what during that time. Perhaps he was having trouble coping with the behind the scenes fallout? It was sad to see him like that.
 
aazzaabb said:
I agree he wasn't himself & hopped up on gawd knows what during that time. Perhaps he was having trouble coping with the behind the scenes fallout? It was sad to see him like that.
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It was awful, I've blocked a it of that time out the MJ bank in my brain. That's why I was so pleased that TII showed him to be much better.
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
It should have sold more than that. It deserves higher numbers.
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I definitley think had the right singles & short films been released it would have shifted a few more million. You Rock My World was a quickly thrown together rehash of Smooth Criminal and the Dangerous live performances. I don't think MJ's heart was in it. But 13 million is massive for 2001, Coldplay sold 7 or 8 million and deemed a global success, Mike sells 13 million & it's deemed a flop lol.
 
Tony R said:
I wholly think he wasn't a well man in every sense in 2001. His appearances and behaviour were increasingly bizarre and the Sony protest and Motolla devil insinuations were just awful and symbolic of a man not fully in his own mind.
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And Sony's actions were "well" in any sense, their behaviour weren't "bizarre", "awful" and symbolic of a company led by a man fully "in his own mind"? Come on! Please!

It was a classic vendetta by 1 powerful man. Nothing to do with album's quality or MJ's appearance. When MJ declared to him that he's leaving Sony (owning half of Sony Music Publishing) all chances for Invincible success were over - and that was before the album was even released! What company does that??
 
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AtlasAir said:
His tirade against Tommy Motolla was embarrassing on his part. Probably one of the few times I didn't agree with Michael.
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He fully deserved it. Not on a bus and not in that way. But he deserved it.
 
aazzaabb said:
Perhaps he was having trouble coping with the behind the scenes fallout?
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Absolutely. He spent 4 years of his life and 20 MIL $ for what? To be treated like some B list singer, even worse to be treated like shit. He created a masterpiece and he watched it being destroyed by greed. Imagine how he must have felt!
 
OnirMJ said:
Absolutely. He spent 4 years of his life and 20 MIL $ for what? To be treated like some B list singer, even worse to be treated like shit. He created a masterpiece and he watched it being destroyed by greed. Imagine how he must have felt!
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This. It's easy to reflect now in retrospect. But imagine being in MJ's shoes. The album he spent 4 years creating, traveling from city to city, investing all of his energy and focus was being tarnished. Not to mention that MJ was sony's biggest Cash Cow and generated them millions and millions of dollars, and they didn't even let him choose his own singles? What kind of bulls**t is that? I like the quote where Michael said this "I sold all these albums. I made them all these millions" What right does anyone working in Sony have to disregard what the man himself wants for HIS project? Especially when the man is Michael fricking Jackson! See this is exactly what is wrong with Sony, they interfere in places they have no expertise in.

They did the same thing with The Amazing Spider-Man 2. The lead actor said it himself, the script was already done and it was marvelous but the excutives from Sony came in and revised the whole script which led to the movie fairing poorly in the Box Office. What did the lead actor do? He boycotted Sony and refused to show up on the promotional campaign, (hmm seems familiar), and he was praised a hero for sticking to his guns and challenging the authority of a big business when everybody knew that they were clearly at fault but nobody had the guts to say it.

Don't forget the pressure of being Michael Jackson and having to live up to the expectation that you have to sell over 50 million copies, and all of a sudden the promotional campaign comes to a halt. Why would he even tour at that point? And then there is the subject of him leaving Sony after that album which probably rubbed a lot of executive figures in the wrong way.
 
And it's not like Epic/Sony has funded EVERYTHING MJ ever did! He funded the Thriller short film by releasing a Making Of VHS & paid for a lot of The Dangerous Tour production out of his own pocket. The way I see it, Sony should have said "It's his last album for us, lets sell as many albums as possible!"
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
This. It's easy to reflect now in retrospect. But imagine being in MJ's shoes. The album he spent 4 years creating, traveling from city to city, investing all of his energy and focus was being tarnished. Not to mention that MJ was sony's biggest Cash Cow and generated them millions and millions of dollars, and they didn't even let him choose his own singles? What kind of bulls**t is that? I like the quote where Michael said this "I sold all these albums. I made them all these millions" What right does anyone working in Sony have to disregard what the man himself wants for HIS project? Especially when the man is Michael fricking Jackson! See this is exactly what is wrong with Sony, they interfere in places they have no expertise in.
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It was not "HIS" project, it was their (MJ & Sony together) project. But it was his album. The decisions should have been made together, not by Sony alone. If MJ strongly disagreed with something (Cry) then they should listen to him, especially after he agreed to do You Rock My World as the first single.

I disagree that "they interfere in places they have no expertise in". They absolutely have expertise in choosing the right first single (it's their job!), but MJ have expertise in this area also so they should have listened to him or at least come to an agreement that both sides agree with. They went twice against his choice with Invincible.

But interesting thing is that Sony wanted fourth single from HIStory to be Money and MJ wanted They Don't Care About Us. And MJ won (I guess he had more power back then). But they were right, they knew that the controversy will damage the singles sales and chart performance, they knew that the radio stations will refuse to play that song - but MJ didn't care. He was right because he wanted to release a better song, but he should have looked the bigger picture. After They Don't Care About Us flopped in US HIStory promotion was over in US (while in Europe lasted until late 1997).
 
aazzaabb said:
Sony should have said "It's his last album for us, lets sell as many albums as possible!"
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Exactly. That is what normal company would do. Try to maximize their profits. But Mottola had different plan. Ruin MJ financially so he has to sell them his half of Sony/ATV. It was all on the personal level. It was his personal vendetta.

He didn't care that MJ's leaving in term that it will be his last album with Sony. He was pissed because he knew that if MJ leaves he will take with him his back catalog and who knows what would happen with MJ's half of Sony/ATV.

But there was another huge problem. As always MJ didn't read the "small letters" in the contract he signed with them in 1991. His contract was until 2006 but he would not recieve full control of his masters until 2011. So even if he managed to get out of his contact early, Sony still had control of his back catalog.
 
OnirMJ said:
It was not "HIS" project, it was their (MJ & Sony together) project. But it was his album. The decisions should have been made together, not by Sony alone. If MJ strongly disagreed with something (Cry) then they should listen to him, especially after he agreed to do You Rock My World as the first single.

I disagree that "they interfere in places they have no expertise in". They absolutely have expertise in choosing the right first single (it's their job!), but MJ have expertise in this area also so they should have listened to him or at least come to an agreement that both sides agree with. They went twice against his choice with Invincible.

But interesting thing is that Sony wanted fourth single from HIStory to be Money and MJ wanted They Don't Care About Us. And MJ won (I guess he had more power back then). But they were right, they knew that the controversy will damage the singles sales and chart performance, they knew that the radio stations will refuse to play that song - but MJ didn't care. He was right because he wanted to release a better song, but he should have looked the bigger picture. After They Don't Care About Us flopped in US HIStory promotion was over in US (while in Europe lasted until late 1997).
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By saying HIS project ofc I was referring to his album! The fact is in MJ's entire career Sony let MJ be the artist and did their part with promotions and costs and that worked wonderfully. Sony doesn't k ow anything about creative decision so when MJ, the man that made them millions with his decisions tells them he want a certain single to be pushed they should listen, point blank. We ain't talking about no small fish here this is Michael Jackson. Lol Sony is the same people that told Michael to add remix to BOTDF because "kids love these remixes". Yeah right.
 
Michael worked for himself, he was on contract with Sony.
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
Lol Sony is the same people that told Michael to add remix to BOTDF because "kids love these remixes". Yeah right.
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I would rather buy 13 tracks album with 8 great remixes, than 5 tracks EP. The album sold pretty well internationally, definitely more than EP would sell. And it is still the best selling remix album of all time so on the commercial side I have to agree with their decision. Also MJ had in his contract (that he signed) that he'll release a remix album so with this album they did 2 projects in 1 album.
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
The fact is in MJ's entire career Sony let MJ be the artist and did their part with promotions and costs and that worked wonderfully.
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Well, choosing the right first single and selection of singles is part of promotion. That is something record companies usually do (alone or with the artist), it's part of their job. The job of the artist is to record the album and deliver it to a record company and Sony did not interfere with that.

The point is that here they selected wrong single (Cry). I agree that You Rock My World is better song and more radio friendly than Unbreakable, but maybe Unbreakable would be better first single depending on the video.
 
OnirMJ said:
I would rather buy 13 tracks album with 8 great remixes, than 5 tracks EP. The album sold pretty well internationally, definitely more than EP would sell. And it is still the best selling remix album of all time so on the commercial side I have to agree with their decision. Also MJ had in his contract (that he signed) that he'll release a remix album so with this album they did 2 projects in 1 album.
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MJ was well ahead of the game, you see how artist nowadays releases EP's as a stand alone album? It's not even an uncommon thing to do, many artists releases Extended plays after albums as Some sort of gift to the fans. Sony was/is only thinking about profits how else would you explain such a shallow attempt?
Yeah you would rather buy an album with 8 remixes but that doesn't mean that an EP with 6-8 songs wouldn't do well or that people wouldn't buy and support it.

It was not like Mike re-recorded these remixes with other people or anything, they just slapped a different beat over his vocals. Btw Weren't you the one who said that the songs on Xscape were not remixes?

OnirMJ said:
Well, choosing the right first single and selection of singles is part of promotion. That is something record companies usually do (alone or with the artist), it's part of their job. The job of the artist is to record the album and deliver it to a record company and Sony did not interfere with that.

The point is that here they selected wrong single (Cry). I agree that You Rock My World is better song and more radio friendly than Unbreakable, but maybe Unbreakable would be better first single depending on the video.
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You're missing my point. The point is they shouldn't be the ones deciding what the singles should be in the first place. The artist here is Michael Jackson. It was his decisions, about everything, that made Sony all these fortunes. Michael choose his single for Thriller, Bad, Dangerous & HIStory, why would invincible be any different? Let the artist be an artist. Set up radio interviews, Performances on live TV, Signing Events. Do your part as a label but don't get in the way of an artist and his craft, especially if that artist is Michael Jackson. That's why so many artists decides to go independent. They're fed up with this nonsense. This is a major reoccurrence in the industry. Artists are always voicing complaints about executives coming in, re-arranging tracklists, deciding which songs should be on albums and which should be pushed as singles.

I'm horrified to think of what would have happened to other albums if Sony pulled stunts like that
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
MJ was well ahead of the game, you see how artist nowadays releases EP's as a stand alone album? It's not even an uncommon thing to do, many artists releases Extended plays after albums as Some sort of gift to the fans. Sony was/is only thinking about profits how else would you explain such a shallow attempt?
Yeah you would rather buy an album with 8 remixes but that doesn't mean that an EP with 6-8 songs wouldn't do well or that people wouldn't buy and support it.

It was not like Mike re-recorded these remixes with other people or anything, they just slapped a different beat over his vocals. Btw Weren't you the one who said that the songs on Xscape were not remixes?




You're missing my point. The point is they shouldn't be the ones deciding what the singles should be in the first place. The artist here is Michael Jackson. It was his decisions, about everything, that made Sony all these fortunes. Michael choose his single for Thriller, Bad, Dangerous & HIStory, why would invincible be any different? Let the artist be an artist. Set up radio interviews, Performances on live TV, Signing Events. Do your part as a label but don't get in the way of an artist and his craft, especially if that artist is Michael Jackson. That's why so many artists decides to go independent. They're fed up with this nonsense. This is a major reoccurrence in the industry. Artists are always voicing complaints about executives coming in, re-arranging tracklists, deciding which songs should be on albums and which should be pushed as singles.

I'm horrified to think of what would have happened to other albums if Sony pulled stunts like that
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Back to those days, MJ was a leader & he was in a position to fire (or at least to stop working with) anyone who wanted.
 
OnirMJ said:
Most absurd post I ever read.
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What was absurd in my post? Do you not believe MJ appeared self-conscious at the MSG show and in the YRMW video? Do you not think he appeared high as a kite on the red carpet with Elizabeth Taylor going into the MSG shows?

What is absurd about the theory that perhaps MJ didn't feel great about himself and therefore was reluctant to do anymore music videos and live performances? Michael was a human being with self-doubts and insecurities just like the rest of us.

I'm not for one second implying that Sony weren't also to blame for not promoting the album, but MJ could've definitely done more himself and my reasoning for him not doing so is that I believe he wasn't in great shape around that time and didn't want to do any promo.
 
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MattyJam said:
What was absurd in my post? Do you not believe MJ appeared self-conscious at the MSG show and in the YRMW video? Do you not think he appeared high as a kite on the red carpet with Elizabeth Taylor going into the MSG shows?

What is absurd about the theory that perhaps MJ didn't feel great about himself and therefore was reluctant to do anymore music videos and live performances? Michael was a human being with self-doubts and insecurities just like the rest of us.

I'm not for one second implying that Sony weren't also to blame for not promoting the album, but MJ could've definitely done more himself and my reasoning for him not doing so is that I believe he wasn't in great shape around that time and didn't want to do any promo.
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Agreed, there's simply no getting away from the fact that MJ did not look himself that year, possibly to do with the fact that he was taking something to help him cope & was not happy with the behind the scenes backstabbing, that's a theory I have anyway. The thing about all this is that Invincible cost a fortune to make, & I do feel they had a say in the lead single but from there on in they should have let him to it, but here's a question for anyone, how much did Ghosts cost to make, & how successful was it? How much did it make? At the end of the day Sony are a business & at some point the money well drys up. How much would Mike have spent on an Unbreakable short film with him standing on burning buildings and all these effects?

Apart from the album issues, I don't think Mottola liked it one bit that Mike had the balls to stand up to him & say this was his last album for them, & he would also walk away with half their catalogue. I'll bet Mottola didn't like that one bit.
 
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