When did MJ tell Sony that he was leaving them?

[aazzaabb]

I'm MJ fan, because 70% of his discography consists of his music!

But we have to remember, that Invincible, Thriller and Off The Wall will never be his best albums! Because it lacks of Michael Jackson himself!

Bad, Dangerous and History are absolute peak of MJ!

Bad album is peak of everything!

MJ wrote 9 songs of 11!

Arrangement, vocals, lyrics, melody - everything is done by him!

And what about Bad tour? Peak! Peak of everything!

Dangerous is his second best album. Yep, only 8 songs written by Michael. But they are really really important! Maybe even more important than Bad song!

History - third best album! Peak of album tracklisting! When you listen this album, it feel like you are reading an autobographic book!

Thriller and Invincible are just song collections. History - is masterpiece, pure art.

Perhaps you will come to change your mind in time, but Thriller for example is an amalgamation of Michael and an incredible group of musicians, writers, artists and producers working together to create something magnificent. It doesn’t necessarily make it less Michael, but perhaps it is more of a collaboration, with Michael as the catalyst.

I don’t think you can necessarily deduce what is more of a Michael album because of the amount of self penned songs included. Tracks like Human Nature and Rock With You prove that point. Without Michael’s presence they would cease to be great songs. They would probably be good to average at best, but with Michael Jackson’s incredibly unique stamp on them they are magnificent. You can’t just disregard them as “not good” because, well, it’s immediately obvious that they are in fact, very good.

 

[Stain Finkins]

Most of the 9 songs were actually co-written. John and Bill gave up their royalty claims per signed mutual contract.

It doesn't matter. He was wroking on it. It's very important

 

[aazzaabb]

The other point that needs to be made is that you had writers and producers queuing up to work with Michael because they knew that his presence on their work would elevate it dramatically to an undeniable level of quality, because of his immense talent.

These people wrote songs specifically for Michael and on many occasions when they got passed on, those songs would never again see the light of day because the writer/producer couldn’t bare to release them without Michael on them.

 

[aazzaabb]

It doesn't matter. He was wroking on it. It's very important

Why? Why is it very important? Ultimately, Michael’s interpretation is what a song would live or die by.

 

[Stain Finkins]

Perhaps you will come to change your mind in time, but Thriller for example is an amalgamation of Michael and an incredible group of musicians, writers, artists and producers working together to create something magnificent.

You can say that about any other songs. Invincible is group of musicians, working together to create something magnificent too. It doesn't matter. Art is subjective thing. So, who cares??!!

Writing credits - this is what is really important. It's a thing, that distinguishes real songwriter from show off!

If you like songs, that Michael didn't wrote, then you probably have to like Cascio songs as well! Michael never worked on them, but they are quite good! Especially Keep Your Head Up! So, why do you hate them?

Because fans knew, Michael never worked on them, never sung on them. These are not his songs.

It's the same!

 

[aazzaabb]

You can say that about any other songs. Invincible is group of musicians, working together to create something magnificent too. It doesn't matter. Art is subjective thing. So, who cares??!!

Writing credits - this is what is really important. It's a thing, that distinguishes real songwriter from show off!

If you like songs, that Michael didn't wrote, then you probably have to like Cascio songs as well! Michael never worked on themm but they are quite good! Especially Keep Your Head Up! So, why do you hate them?

Because fans knew, Michael never worked on them, never sung on them. These are not his songs.

It's the same!

Well yes, I can say it about any other songs, and absolutely, Invincible sets out with the same premise. That doesn’t necessarily change because something is deemed either strong or weak.

And also let’s flip your -flawed- logic around. Just because Michael writes and contributes a song, doesn’t automatically make that song something magnificent either. And Michael himself knew that also. There were many instances where he wasn’t particularly happy with things he created.

You are conflating two completely different things. Someone early used Whitney Houston as a great example of an artist whose interpretation of a song elevated it to levels beyond its original level or intent. Her performance on I Will Always Love You completely floored Dolly Parton to the point where -I believe- even she had to admit that Whitney’s version was probably the definitive version.

 

[Stain Finkins]

Well yes, I can say it about any other songs, and absolutely, Invincible sets out with the same premise. That doesn’t necessarily change because something is deemed either strong or weak.

And also let’s flip your -flawed- logic around. Just because Michael writes and contributes a song, doesn’t automatically make that song something magnificent either. And Michael himself knew that also. There were many instances where he wasn’t particularly happy with things he created.

You are conflating two completely different things. Someone early used Whitney Houston as a great example of an artist whose interpretation of a song elevated it to levels beyond its original level or intent. Her performance on I Will Always Love You completely floored Dolly Parton to the point where -I believe- even she had to admit that Whitney’s version was probably the definitive version.

Oh, just because somebody performed your song better than you, makes you the right to call it your song? What a nonesence

I agree, that Michael's performence of Smile is 100 times beter than original version. But it doesn't change the fact that it's Chrlie Chaplin song! And it will always be his song! And MJ's version is just a really good cover!

While Billie Jean, The Lost Children, Hollywood Tonight, Beat it and Earth Song - these songs will always be the best, because they made by MJ and sung by MJ in definitive version!

 

[Stain Finkins]

Why? Why is it very important?

Because songwriter is the only person, who really understands true nature of his song!

If I will become a pop star and sing Heartbreaker 100 times better than MJ and release it on my album, that won't make it mine. That would be just a cover. And that won't show me as a great musican. That will only show that I can sing, that's all.

 

[aazzaabb]

Oh, just because somebody performed your song better than you, makes you the right to call it your song? What a nonesence

I agree, that Michael's performence of Smile is 100 times beter than original version. But it doesn't change the fact that it's Chrlie Chaplin song! And it will always be his song! And MJ's version is just a really good cover!

While Billie Jean, The Lost Children, Hollywood Tonight, Beat it and Earth Song - these songs will always be the best, because they made by MJ and sung by MJ in definitive version!

Well no, nobody is calling it MY song, but Whitney Houston certainly made I Will Always Love You her song, in an artistical sense, no? She put her own individual stamp on it to the point where it’s become synonymous with her. I’ve heard instances where people have heard the Dolly Parton version and pondered “Oh, she’s singing that Whitney song?”

Anyways, that in itself is neither here nor there, but it’s completely illogical to disregard songs and entire albums by an artist because they didn’t write this or that, particularly within pop music.

I’m a Dylan fan by the way, so I’m steeped in the singer songwriter paradigm also, but I’ve never seen both approaches as one being mutually exclusive over the other. Before Dylan no performer wrote their own material. It was written for them in places like Tin Pan Ally in New York. And many of those performers have stood the test of time and are universally regarded as complete artists. Certainly for that time.

You’re living in a sort of weird, very limited reality that disregards swaths of artists, albums and genres. It’s a juvenile way to look at music as an art form. Sure, if you’re an angst teenager who only listens to punk or metal etc, but it’s something you eventually grow out of.

Anyways, -and no offence intended- you don’t seem to be able to see beyond your understanding, which is skewed to say the least.

 

[Stain Finkins]

Sure, if you’re an angst teenager who only listens to punk or metal etc

What? Hell, no! My musical taste is really really wide! I enjoying listening almost every genre: from britpop, country pop, pop rock to punk pop, hip hop, indie rock and so on!

But I don't listen metal, lol.

Some of my favourite songs:

These songs prove, that my music reality is totally not "very limited"!

 

[DuranDuran]

Because songwriter is the only person, who really understands true nature of his song!

If I will become a pop star and sing Heartbreaker 100 times better than MJ and release it on my album, that won't make it mine. That would be just a cover. And that won't show me as a great musican. That will only show that I can sing, that's all.

But there's songwriters who don't put out records themselves (or they can't sing). They exclusively write for other people. Like Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis or the Motown staff writers or those early writers who wrote what became known as 'standards'. Jam & Lewis did perform as members of the funk band The Time (aka The Original 7ven), but many of their songs were written by Prince and the lead singer is Morris Day. As songwriters & producers Jam & Lewis are one of the most successful. Also just because someone writes their own music does not mean it's personal to them. The 1970s band KC & The Sunshine Band wrote their own music, but it's mostly songs about dancing and discos (Shake Shake Shake Shake Your Booty), with simple lyrics that are repeated over and over.

Again songwriting credits don't necessarily mean anything. Elvis Presley never wrote a song in his life, but he had co-writing credits and/or half of the publishing of many of the songs he recorded because Colonel Tom Parker set it up like that. Elvis wanted to record I Will Always Love You, but Dolly Parton turned it down because she did not want to accept Parker's deal. In the 1970s, James Brown but his then elementary school aged daughters names on some of his songs, because the taxman would take all of the royalties if he put his own name on them. James owed the IRS. It's also said that James (also George Clinton from Funkadelic) would sometimes not give songwriting credits to their band members who helped with the writing. Elton John did not write lyrics (usually Bernie Taupin), but the music.

Also there's male songwriters who write songs in a woman's point of view for female singers. It wouldn't make much sense to sing the songs themselves (unless they're RuPaul ). I Will Survive by Gloria Gaynor, I'm Every Woman by Chaka Khan, & Naughty Girls Need Love Too by Samantha Fox were written by men. Well, I'm Every Woman was written by a man & woman (Ashford & Simpson). But it was usually Nick Ashford who wrote the lyrics to their songs & Valerie Simpson did the music

 

[Stain Finkins]

But there's songwriters who don't put out records themselves (or they can't sing). They exclusively write for other people. Like Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis or the Motown staff writers or those early writers who wrote what became known as 'standards'. Jam & Lewis did perform as members of the funk band The Time (aka The Original 7ven), but many of their songs were written by Prince and the lead singer is Morris Day. As songwriters & producers Jam & Lewis are one of the most successful. Also just because someone writes their own music does not mean it's personal to them. The 1970s band KC & The Sunshine Band wrote their own music, but it's mostly songs about dancing and discos (Shake Shake Shake Shake Your Booty), with simple lyrics that are repeated over and over.

Again songwriting credits don't necessarily mean anything. Elvis Presley never wrote a song in his life, but he had co-writing credits and/or half of the publishing of many of the songs he recorded because Colonel Tom Parker set it up like that. Elvis wanted to record I Will Always Love You, but Dolly Parton turned it down because she did not want to accept Parker's deal. In the 1970s, James Brown but his then elementary school aged daughters names on some of his songs, because the taxman would take all of the royalties if he put his own name on them. James owed the IRS. It's also said that James (also George Clinton from Funkadelic) would sometimes not give songwriting credits to their band members who helped with the writing. Elton John did not write lyrics (usually Bernie Taupin), but the music.

Also there's male songwriters who write songs in a woman's point of view for female singers. It wouldn't make much sense to sing the songs themselves (unless they're RuPaul ). I Will Survive by Gloria Gaynor, I'm Every Woman by Chaka Khan, & Naughty Girls Need Love Too by Samantha Fox were written by men. Well, I'm Every Woman was written by a man & woman (Ashford & Simpson). But it was usually Nick Ashford who wrote the lyrics to their songs & Valerie Simpson did the music

What is the difference between singer, songwriter and musician?

Singer sings, songwriters writes and musician does both!

Was Elvis Presley a musician? Of course not! As a musician he is much much weaker than MJ

That's the point! Pop stars who really writes their songs WILL ALWAYS be better than ones, who only sings!

Because they are simply more talented!

Michael Jackson could do anything!

He could write, he could sing, he could perform, he could dance! That's what makes him better than any other musician!

But we have to be honest with ourselfs, when we compare his albums! After incredible art called History, people got Invincible product. Which is basically just Michael singing other people songs.

If you were right, people would eat this album and considered it as one of the greatest. Well, they didn't! Because magic is gone!

This as album rating from professional crtitics! It shows, that when artist just picks other people's songs it leads to a very bad consequences, no matter how good he sings!

And if you check rating of albums, where all songs being written by artists, you will see that these rating always really high! Because that's what bringes magic into music

 

[Fuzball]

Pop stars who really writes their songs WILL ALWAYS be better than ones, who only sings!

Because they are simply more talented!

Michael Jackson could do anything!

He could write, he could sing, he could perform, he could dance! That's what makes him better than any other musician!

Boy, you really have no clue who MJ was; and why he became the greatest entertainer that has ever lived. Yet you pretend so. I truely feel sorry for you.

 

[Stain Finkins]

Boy, you really have no clue who MJ was; and why he became the greatest entertainer that has ever lived. Yet you pretend so. I truely feel sorry for you.

I was MJ fan when you didn't even existed

 

[DuranDuran]

That's the point! Pop stars who really writes their songs WILL ALWAYS be better than ones, who only sings!

John Coltrane didn't write this, it's originally from a Broadway stage play. But I've never heard anybody say he wasn't a musician

This track was written by the singer himself. So by your logic, it's superior to all of the songs Mike sang & didn't write like Man In The Mirror or Got To Be There or Jackson 5/Jacksons songs written by people like Gamble & Huff.

Most artists have done cover songs, either on record or in concert. Some have released Christmas albums with songs that thousands of artists have recorded. Symphony orchestras & opera singers perform songs written by guys who have been dead for hundreds of years. Same for those types of acts who do very old traditional folk music at Renaissance Faires. So none of them are "musicians" then. What about someone like Weird Al? He writes his own lyrics over somebody else's music or he sings the original lyrics over polka music. On his albums, there's songs Weird Al completely wrote himself, but are still comedy songs. With remixes, there's often completely different music from the original version mix, where the instruments are played by the remixer and/or session musicians. Sometimes the artist records different vocals for remixes too, like Mariah Carey. There's also samples & interpolations. Answer/reply songs tend to sound similar to the original song, but not always. Superstar by Lydia Murdock is an answer song to Billie Jean.

 

[mj_frenzy]

I know Taraborrelli's book said it was due to MJ not getting his masters back in 2000 or something like that, but I dunno.

This was also confirmed by Teddy Riley:

"I remember Tommy Mottola [saying to me] 'This will be the end of your career if you don't turn over those masters!' I had no idea that Michael had told him I had the masters [of his back catalog]. I called him up and said, 'My God Michael, you put me in trouble with Tommy Mottola. Do you know who Tommy Mottola is?" (Teddy Riley)

Sony wasn't going to put so much money in the videos after having spent so much on the album itself, so MJ refused to work with them. A record label is obviously going to stop promoting an album if the artist is actively refusing to work on their terms. @mj_frenzy

Note that a big part of financing the 'Invincible' album came from bank loans that Michael Jackson personally got by using as collateral his 50 percent share of ATV Music Catalog.

 

[Spaceship]

This was also confirmed by Teddy Riley:

"I remember Tommy Mottola [saying to me] 'This will be the end of your career if you don't turn over those masters!' I had no idea that Michael had told him I had the masters [of his back catalog]. I called him up and said, 'My God Michael, you put me in trouble with Tommy Mottola. Do you know who Tommy Mottola is?" (Teddy Riley)

Dunno if I believe Teddy. Also, Taraborrelii said MJ wanted Sony to return the masters to his own music to return to him in 2000, but they never did. Mottola wouldn't ask for something he already had; whose masters are these?

Note that a big part of financing the 'Invincible' album came not from Sony Music, but from bank loans that Michael Jackson personally got by using as collateral his 50 percent share of ATV Music Catalog.

Did he use the loans to rerelease the special editions to his previous albums, and the first disc of History?

 

[mj_frenzy]

If anyone sabotaged the album, it was arguably MJ.

It has been said that Sony Music were sabotaging the 'Invincible' album in order to force Michael Jackson to give them his 50 percent share of ATV Music Catalog.

Dunno if I believe Teddy. Also, Taraborrelii said MJ wanted Sony to return the masters to his own music to return to him in 2000, but they never did. Mottola wouldn't ask for something he already had; whose masters are these?

Did he use the loans to rerelease the special editions to his previous albums, and the first disc of History?

Michael Jackson got bank loans from Bank of America (in 1999) mainly because he wanted to finance his new 'Invincible' related projects.

Such as, his new short films, including the payment of 1,000,000 US dollars to Marlon Brando for his brief appearance on the 'You Rock My World' music video.

 

[Stain Finkins]

Marlon Brando for his brief appearance on the 'You Rock My World' music video.

Which was absolutely useless and unnecessary

I mean, who the hell is Marlon Brando?

He could invite any star! Johny Depp, Ryan Gosling, Silvester Stallone, Bred Pitt.

 

[R1chard]

Wtf

 

[Hot_Street]

When did MJ tell Sony that he was leaving them?

He told Sony in 2003 through the song Xscape:
I've got to get away so I can free my mind

 

[Stain Finkins]

He told Sony in 2003 through the song Xscape:
I've got to get away so I can free my mind

Yep, he waited 2 years to tell Sony in Ultimate Collection, that he is leaving... right!

 

[aazzaabb]

Yep, he waited 2 years to tell Sony in Ultimate Collection, that he is leaving... right!

Finkins, how are you today? Do you eat meat or are you a vegetarian?

 

[flight85]

It has been said that Sony Music were sabotaging the 'Invincible' album in order to force Michael Jackson to give them his 50 percent share of ATV Music Catalog.

Michael Jackson got bank loans from Bank of America (in 1999) mainly because he wanted to finance his new 'Invincible' related projects.

Such as, his new short films, including the payment of 1,000,000 US dollars to Marlon Brando for his brief appearance on the 'You Rock My World' music video.

Why would MJ need to pay for his music videos? He was the biggest artist in the world.

 

[Stain Finkins]

Finkins, how are you today? Do you eat meat or are you a vegetarian?

I ate fish today. Russian conserva. It's out national dish

 

[aazzaabb]

I ate fish today. Russian conserva. It's out national dish

Nice. I like salmon myself.

 

[Stain Finkins]

Finkins, how are you today? Do you eat meat or are you a vegetarian?

I think I can't be vegetarian, because I can't live without meat.

I really love pork and any dish, cooked with it.

And I can't imagine my life without cheese...

 

[DuranDuran]

Why would MJ need to pay for his music videos? He was the biggest artist in the world.

Technically all artists pay for their music videos. Because if the record label pays for it, it is considered part of their advance (code for a loan). That's how a lot of artists stay in the hole or they have to sell a huge amount of records/tapes just to break even. Busta Rhymes said one time that all a major label does is make you famous with no money.

 

[Stain Finkins]

Technically all artists pay for their music videos. Because if the record label pays for it, it is considered part of their advance (code for a loan). That's how a lot of artists stay in the hole or they have to sell a huge amount of records/tapes just to break even. Busta Rhymes said one time that all a major label does is make you famous with no money.

If Sony pushed on MJ and forced him to shoot YRMW video first, then they probably paid for it!