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Where Invincible went wrong

Invincible had more ballads than every other album before.
Thats what killed it.
4 ballads on Off the Wall: It’s the Falling in Love, I Can’t Help It, She’s Out of My Life, Girlfriend
2 ballads on Thriller: Human Nature, Lady in My Life
3 ballads on Bad: I Just Can’t Stop Loving You, Man in the Mirror, Liberian Girl
5 ballads on Dangerous: Heal the World, Will You Be There, Keep the Faith, Gone Too Soon, Give In to Me
6 ballads on HIStory: Stranger in Moscow, Earth Song, You Are Not Alone, Childhood, Little Susie, Smile
9 ballads on Invincible: Break of Dawn, Heaven Can Wait, Butterflies, Speechless, You Are My Life, Don’t Walk Away, Cry, The Lost Children, Whatever Happens
 
Hot_Street said:
Invincible had more ballads than every other album before.
Thats what killed it.
4 ballads on Off the Wall: It’s the Falling in Love, I Can’t Help It, She’s Out of My Life, Girlfriend
2 ballads on Thriller: Human Nature, Lady in My Life
3 ballads on Bad: I Just Can’t Stop Loving You, Man in the Mirror, Liberian Girl
5 ballads on Dangerous: Heal the World, Will You Be There, Keep the Faith, Gone Too Soon, Give In to Me
6 ballads on HIStory: Stranger in Moscow, Earth Song, You Are Not Alone, Childhood, Little Susie, Smile
9 ballads on Invincible: Break of Dawn, Heaven Can Wait, Butterflies, Speechless, You Are My Life, Don’t Walk Away, Cry, The Lost Children, Whatever Happens
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There's nothing wrong with ballads and there's nothing wrong with slow music.
I'm realizing now that most people in this thread aren't even American. So, I'd assume they don't know about the state of American R&B. It's pretty... Blase. It all blends together. mJ made an R&B/quiet storm/ballads album, and it sounds and feels like it. It's fine. It's just different.
 
Hot_Street said:
Invincible had more ballads than every other album before.
Thats what killed it.
4 ballads on Off the Wall: It’s the Falling in Love, I Can’t Help It, She’s Out of My Life, Girlfriend
2 ballads on Thriller: Human Nature, Lady in My Life
3 ballads on Bad: I Just Can’t Stop Loving You, Man in the Mirror, Liberian Girl
5 ballads on Dangerous: Heal the World, Will You Be There, Keep the Faith, Gone Too Soon, Give In to Me
6 ballads on HIStory: Stranger in Moscow, Earth Song, You Are Not Alone, Childhood, Little Susie, Smile
9 ballads on Invincible: Break of Dawn, Heaven Can Wait, Butterflies, Speechless, You Are My Life, Don’t Walk Away, Cry, The Lost Children, Whatever Happens
Click to expand...

I think we probably have a different definition of ballad. Break of Dawn, Butterflies, Whatever Happens and Heaven Can Wait - I wouldn’t call them ballads.

And definitely not MITM!
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
There's nothing wrong with ballads and there's nothing wrong with slow music.
I'm realizing now that most people in this thread aren't even American. So, I'd assume they don't know about the state of American R&B. It's pretty... Blase. It all blends together. mJ made an R&B/quiet storm/ballads album, and it sounds and feels like it. It's fine. It's just different.
Click to expand...
It's not what Michael really wanted. Sony replaced Shout with You Are My Boredom.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Michael dedicated that song to his children. He loved that song and he made the call.
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Michael needed someone like Quincy, to tell him the truth. Remember why Another Part of Me was chosen instead of Streetwalker? Because it sounded different. Invincible has too many samey ballads. Quincy would've never allowed that.
 
Hot_Street said:
Invincible had more ballads than every other album before.
Thats what killed it.
Click to expand...
If that's the case, then Adele & Celine Dion wouldn't have been popular. As far as killing the album, are you sure it wasn't this?
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Mister_Jay_Tee said:
There's nothing wrong with ballads and there's nothing wrong with slow music.
I'm realizing now that most people in this thread aren't even American. So, I'd assume they don't know about the state of American R&B. It's pretty... Blase. It all blends together. mJ made an R&B/quiet storm/ballads album, and it sounds and feels like it. It's fine. It's just different.
Click to expand...
I guess that's why some here think She Drives Me Wild & Can't Let Her Get Away should have been left off the Dangerous album. If they had heard more New Jack Swing, then they would know those songs sound the most like the typical NJS songs by other artists on the radio. They probably wouldn't have heard New Jack Swing if it wasn't Michael Jackson doing it. It's also probably why they don't get into the Jackson 5 music, because that is also the R&B sound of those years. The entire Quiet Storm radio program was named after the Smokey Robinson song.
 
Hot_Street said:
Michael needed someone like Quincy, to tell him the truth. Remember why Another Part of Me was chosen instead of Streetwalker? Because it sounded different. Invincible has too many samey ballads. Quincy would've never allowed that.
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Michael was a 40 year old man and a hit making superstar. He did not "need" someone to tell him. Bruce Swedien was sitting right there anyway.

If Quincy had his way, he would've never allowed Billie Jean or Smooth Criminal. He ain't some musical prophet.
 
DuranDuran said:
If that's the case, then Adele & Celine Dion wouldn't have been popular.
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This is a great point actually. Adele is a huge artist, she's even eclipsed Beyonce in sales. Yet not a single speedy song I can think of her in her discography. Maybe MJ knew ballads was the way things would be going too...

Also I'm not surprised she did outsell Beyonce. No surprise why(te).
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
This is a great point actually. Adele is a huge artist, she's even eclipsed Beyonce in sales. Yet not a single speedy song I can think of her in her discography. Maybe MJ knew ballads was the way things would be going too...

Also I'm not surprised she did outsell Beyonce. No surprise why(te).
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One of the reasons Adele's albums sold so much is that they were sold in a lot of stores, when most other albums weren't after a lot of actual record stores went out of business. I would see Adele's CDs in places that didn't normally sell music like Walgreen's, grocery stores, even gas stations. People are more likely to buy something in front of them than to order online. A lot of people still didn't know how to use computers or didn't have credit/debit cards to shop online.

There's also the case that no matter what music style was popular at the moment, adult contemporary music was always popular. During the height of disco, songs like You Light Up My Life by Debby Boone & Feelings by Morris Albert were popular hits. In the mid-1980s the smooth jazz of Kenny G was a big seller in the USA and so were Sade & Anita Baker.
 
Adele caters to the basic masses. I’m glad my fave isn’t that boring.
 
Comparing MJ to Adele in a conversation about Invincible…what are we doing with our lives.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
This is a great point actually. Adele is a huge artist, she's even eclipsed Beyonce in sales. Yet not a single speedy song I can think of her in her discography. Maybe MJ knew ballads was the way things would be going too...

Also I'm not surprised she did outsell Beyonce. No surprise why(te).
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I'm not sure Beyoncé & Adele were necessarily selling to the same people. There's some overlap, but I think Adele would appeal more to people who watch soap operas, romantic comedies, also older folks. Beyoncé has more appeal to a younger hipper audience. I'm not sure it has anything to do with their race although Beyoncé does sometimes put out Afrocentric imagery that doesn't have as much mainstream appeal. But not as much as Erykah Badu though or even her own sister Solange. Rihanna is about as popular as Beyoncé and they're the same race.
 
All I see is a lot of goalpost shifting here to make it feasible that Hollywood Tonight is a great song or a potential hit. It's not. YRMW also, quite simply, is not as good as even Scream. The belief seems to be that record labels just pay their way into the charts and chart success means nothing, like people are mindless automatons who will buy what they're told. And while there's truth to the fact that there is great music that doesn't chart, the music that does chart quite obviously resonates with people. Of course that music has been made accessible to them but people still have to put their hand in their purse and buy it.

And yes, it is "whatever is popular at that moment". Why shouldn't it be? No one expects Bon Jovi to be popular now. And the Thriller comparison is awkward. Yeah... of course if Thriller was released now it wouldn't do much. You're talking about a 40 year old album and you're talking about a musical landscape that has been directly changed by that album. The whole argument makes no sense.

The argument also seems to be "yeah, Hollywood Tonight isn't that good, could still be a hit though. Music doesnt have to be good to be a hit". By that logic, so could anything. So could a collection of dog farts.
 
Hurley509 said:
All I see is a lot of goalpost shifting here to make it feasible that Hollywood Tonight is a great song or a potential hit. It's not.
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Well if you say it's true then it's just facts I guess.

He didn't even get to finish the songfor crying out loud. It'd be one thing if he at least got to sing the whole thing himself.
 
Funny, I just went to Youtube and looked up Hollywood Tonight. It's kinda odd that a song nobody likes and is no good currently has 76,604,633 views and a bunch of comments from the past few weeks. I also think anything can be a hit 🤣
 
DuranDuran said:
It's kinda odd that a song nobody likes and is no good currently has 76,604,633 views and a bunch of comments from the past few weeks.
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It's not crazy high in the popularity but the video has about as many views as "Stranger in Moscow" lol.
 
Stranger in Moscow - fantastic song, but wasn't a hit, which I think is the point Mister is trying to make.

And yeah, he didnt finish the song. I've made that point a few times now.
 
Hurley509 said:
Stranger in Moscow - fantastic song, but wasn't a hit, which I think is the point Mister is trying to make.

And yeah, he didnt finish the song. I've made that point a few times now.
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No, that's not my point at all. A song every fan calls beloved has as much recognition as this song you say isn't all that. They're ranked evenly in some metrics.

Also, that this great song is so underappreciated pretty much shows how a metric isn't how appreciated it is but how much it should be. People are very good at not appreciating stuff.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
It's not crazy high in the popularity but the video has about as many views as "Stranger in Moscow" lol.
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I looked up some more recent songs by veteran artists on Youtube. The only 3 that have higher numbers than Hollywood Tonight have a current hot act on them. And everyone is still alive. Except Prince & Charlie Watts from the Rolling Stones, but they were when the songs came out. They've all aged out of Top 40 airplay, and aren't expected to get the numbers of Cardi B.

Paul McCartney & Beck - Find My Way (2021) 5,398,244 views
Paul McCartney - Fuh You (2018) 2,946,851
Rihanna, Kanye West, Paul McCartney - FourFiveSeconds (2015) 518,978,874
Sting & Shaggy - Don't Make Me Wait (2018) 26,946,997
Sting & Shaggy - Just One Lifetime (2018) 20,952,611
Janet Jackson & Daddy Yankee - Made For Now (2018) 81,773,894
The Rolling Stones - Ride 'Em On Down (2016) 38,057,422
Madonna & Maluma - Medellín (2019) 56,440,337
Charlie Wilson & Smokey Robinson - All Of My Love (2020) 7,102,906
Charlie Wilson, Babyface, K-Ci Hailey, Johnny Gill - No Stoppin' Us (2022) 9,821,198
The Isley Brothers feat. Snoop Dogg - Friends And Family (2021) 8,280,611
Marc Anthony, Will Smith, Bad Bunny - Está Rico (2018) 199,461,417
Stevie Wonder feat. Gary Clark Jr. - Where Is Our Love Song (2020) 866,290
Elton John & Stevie Wonder - Finish Line (2021) 1,326,348
Tito Jackson - Love One Another (2021) 425,099
Johnny Mathis - Run To You (2017) 220,144
Tony Bennett & Lady Gaga - I've Got You Under My Skin (2021) 6,762,940
Huey Lewis & The News - Her Love Is Killin' Me (2020) 754,668
Duran Duran - Invisible (2021) 1,449,617
Tears For Fears - The Tipping Point (2021) 3,886,800
Sade - Flower Of The Universe (2018) 4,488,966
Ringo Starr - Everyone And Everything (2022) 606,935
Prince & 3RDEYEGIRL - Anotherlove (2014) 2,131,540
Morris Day feat. Billy Gibbons [ZZ Top] - Too Much Girl 4 Me (2023) 163,306
New Kids On The Block, Salt-N-Pepa, Rick Astley, En Vogue - Bring Back The Time (2022) 5,136,936
 
I dont understand your "aged out of Top40" argument. It just seems to be opinion only. You can always find stats the verify someone's opinion. Kylie Minogue is now 55 years old and she has a top 40 hit in Padam Padam in the US, UK and Australian charts.

So why does this song work? Well, it's got an interesting/innovative and catchy sound that you could hear in clubs.

 
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