Where Invincible went wrong

[UMJKtF]

Although Invincible has some of my all-time favourites on it, I got to agree when it comes to the whole album in itself!
I wouldn't call it too long tho (as Dangerous and HIStory are actually longer) but a bit dragged especially towards the end. The track-listing for the last 4-5 songs seems a bit messy to me, to that extent that I always had issues memorizing which song was the next coming up, which hasn't happened to any other MJ-Album because you just know the tracklist after the first few listens due to how iconic it is (especially Thriller and BAD)... For me, Invincible would have marked his best album ever, where some unreleased songs put on the album and swopped with others. Xscape, Blue Gangsta, She Was Loving Me and We've Had Enough are all more ,,trademark-MJ'' and fit his past style pretty well with some new features sprinklet in.
I would even go as far in saying that People Of The World could've been Invincible's Heal The World or Earth Song and would continue Michaels tradition to include ballads about nature and the earth, which I actually missed on Invincible, because the only songs coming close to this message are The Lost Children and Cry, but other than that, the message that could've transpired through Invincible was lost for me due to the choice of songs...
But I have to mention that I actually find the intro to You Rock My World pretty entertaining because it's just Michael and Chris having fun... Also the album includes my favourite song of all time, which is Speechless!

 

[DuranDuran]

But I have to mention that I actually find the intro to You Rock My World pretty entertaining because it's just Michael and Chris having fun...

I don't know about that one. The skit I thought was funny is the one from the 2nd TLC album about the toilet. It's not connected to another song, it's a separate track.

 

[Loneman1]

I know that Perry didn't want to tour for TBF, and then hurt his hip (I've seen some people question if the injury was real or just an excuse, but I've seen no reason to disbelieve Perry), but I don't see why Journey didn't do an Unplugged show and release a live album from it in 96/97, seeing as it would have been easier on Perry both vocally and physically and Unplugged CDs/DVDs were really popular at the time. I kind of wonder if Perry didn't want recordings of him singing the songs in lower keys, since he also didn't have any of the FTLOSM shows recorded, except for the one "Missing You" live performance. Weirdly, it is in B even though the studio was in Bb. All of the bootlegs of the tour I've heard have Missing You in Bb live, and all the other songs performed a half step below their original key. I almost wonder if the live version of Missing You on the FTLOSM remaster was sped up, or if for that one show, they played in standard tuning (which would put Missing You in B).

There's been TONS of what-ifs about the handling of the TBF era and Perry's injury within the fan community for sure. A sitting down situation was supposedly proposed to Perry to tour with, but he felt that he'd be shortchanging the audience if he wasn't up to his usual standard of performing so he nixed that idea. Much like MJ, the dude is a hardcore perfectionist and won't settle until he's reached as close to perfection as he can with his music and performances. An unplugged set would have gone a long way in the fan's eyes just to see them performing together onstage, but its been widely thrown around that Perry really never actually intended to tour since the FTLOSM tour took a toll on his health and voice, to the point of his cancellation of the tour prematurely in '95. The truth is obviously somewhere in the middle of the speculation. I tend to think he might have liked the idea of getting back on the road initially but maybe second guessed it once the injury happened and perhaps even beforehand. The fact that he never performed again live other than a guest song or two here and there onstage is pretty telling. His voice had changed after age and years of abuse with various substances, and I'm not sure he felt confident enough anymore to pull it off night after night.

I've never compared "Missing You" from the FTLOSM remaster to the original actually......I'm now kind of curious if it was sped up or not.

This one has the best sound quality, but I don't think it was his best performance of the tour vocally.

Thats a good one! There's another rare show from that tour with a slightly different setlist from Kansas City '95 where he performs a bit of "Patiently" for the first time since '86, as well as the "Street Talk" track "She's Mine", a song that in all my years of bootleg collecting with Journey/Perry solo stuff I've never seen on a setlist live before. I wish the bootleg was better quality, but its better than nothing! Managed to find it on YouTube-

I read that he had all of the rehearsals taped. Maybe he could release the dress rehearsal, or splice together a bunch of different rehearsals for the best performance of each song. I saw a very short snippet of his band rehearsing for the tour years ago on YouTube as part of some video about the tour, and they were playing in standard tuning, even though the entire tour was tuned down. I wonder if maybe he tried to do it in standard tuning but couldn't get through an entire show's worth of songs in standard tuning, hence the tour being in Eb. When Perry performed with Journey for a one-off thing in 1991, they were tuned to D. I read somewhere that when Journey was jamming with old songs while making TBF, they had to tune down for Perry

That compilation idea would be amazing!! I hadn't actually heard he recorded his rehearsals, that would be an awesome archive to help create a decent commercial release! As I stated above he is a big perfectionist so that might have stopped him from releasing any of that audio/video since it wouldn't be up to his standards. Much like MJ, imagine the gems that are many cuts above other artists but never saw the light of day because of perfectionism. It hurts the soul!! lol......also, I think I know the video clip you are talking about. The band was rehearsing "Separate Ways" I believe if its the same clip from an old interview Perry did to hype up FTLOSM. He talks about Journey a bit in it (probably when they show the rehearsal footage), and then he goes on to talk about recording FTLOSM. Its been years since I've watched the VHS I have so the details are sketchy. I think the interview goes the the name "Kitchen is closed interview" in trading circles. It might have been on that one or one of two other longer interviews he did around that time, one being from Japan.

I wonder why he ignores FTLOSM. I actually think it was better than Street Talk (more cohesive album, more interesting lyrics, I really like the sound of the album and the way he sings it, I think the rasp adds character and emotion to his voice, but I think that now he's become too raspy and thin, but he still sounds great for a man old enough to be my grandfather). I know there might be bad memories associated with TBF for him because of the hip injury and the tour, but I don't think he would feel negatively about FTLOSM. He chose the band, and was in the driver's seat. He was Lincoln Brewster and Paul Taylor's boss, whereas he wasn't Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain's.

Journey is pretty much dead to him at this point, although I guess enough time had passed to show up for their R&R HOF ceremony 5-6 years ago. Other than that he's distanced himself as far from the band members as far as he can nowadays. Neal Schon definitely pissed him off following the HOF induction, taking Perry saying the himself and Neal need to grab a cup of coffee sometime, and natually Neal took that as Perry might return and started yelling about the upcoming coffee multiple times on social media to the point of embarassment. Not exactly playing it cool there Neal. Of course the coffee never took place with all the expectation attached to it. Ironically Perry's touring bass player on the FTLOSM tour Todd Jensen is currently playing bass for Journey now on tour so weirdly the two sides came together on that front. lol

My high school choir teacher actually worked with Jonathan Cain once, which I think is kind of cool, since it puts me at only 3 degrees of separation from Perry.
Interestingly, I'm only 2 degrees of separation from MJ, since I've met Jane Goodall twice.

Haha that is pretty epic!!!

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

None of that originated from Mike. Even "shamone" came from Mavis Staples

Why do you think Michael kept that close to his chest?

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I will take points off Invincible for it just having such a hard tracklist to remember. But The Lost Children, Whatever Happens, and Threatened is not exactly much crazier an ending than Keep The Faith, Gone Too Soon, and Dangerous, or History, Little Susie, and Smile. Like that one alone is almost unbridled in wildness.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I actually like this thread more and will bump it instead.

Invincible is basically all R&B, R&B tinted pop anyway? That's harder for some people to vibe with by default.

 

[analogue]

I would I preferred that no guest rappers appear on the first 3 tracks. IMO guest rappers only worked on Dangerous and after that it just felt forced.

 

[NeoGardiV8]

I would I preferred that no guest rappers appear on the first 3 tracks. IMO guest rappers only worked on Dangerous and after that it just felt forced.

No guest rappers? aight... on the first... 3 tracks?... including Unbreakable?
Bro c'mon Biggie's part fits like a glove on Unbreakable lol
the Fats parts in Heartbreaker and Invincible i can understand tho

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I would I preferred that no guest rappers appear on the first 3 tracks. IMO guest rappers only worked on Dangerous and after that it just felt forced.

Guest rappers only worked when it was Biggie. The others ranged from good (Heavy D) to a literal joke (Bill Bottrell).

 

[Salami]

No guest rappers? aight... on the first... 3 tracks?... including Unbreakable?
Bro c'mon Biggie's part fits like a glove on Unbreakable lol
the Fats parts in Heartbreaker and Invincible i can understand tho

Why wasn't he credited though? Same with This Time Around, name them.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Why wasn't he credited though? Same with This Time Around, name them.

Biggie didn't care about the money, he made his career.

 

[Hiker]

Can't follow the site rules either. I wonder what happened to the mods.

Moderation rarely happens around here.

Please report any inappropriate behaviour. Moderators cannot read every thread. The thread has been cleaned up now.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I apologize for my part in the arguments.

 

[PurpleThriller]

Listen to the 1989 LA show—he sounds exhausted.

I would argue that the (last) LA '89 show is one of the best concerts of the tour,when it comes to his live vocals.
His vocals during ''I just can't stop loving you'' and ''Billie Jean'',along with his ad-libs at the end of ''The way you make me feel'' and ''Man in the Mirror'' sound absolutely fabulous,at least in my opinion. I would go as far as saying that those vocals are among his best ever,when it comes to live shows.
(I forgot to add that ''Heartbreak Hotel'' and even ''Another part of me'' sound better than they did on most if not any of the '88 shows,to me)

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Should've had more songs like You Rock My World and Whatever Happens

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

It is interesting they pitched MJ down, instead of up, in these songs.

 

[DanGerouS-]

if Invincible included outtakes like HT, BG, APWNN, Xscape, WHE, it would have been his best album.

and remove some of the horrible ballads & 'Invincible'.
I'd even add Another Day then.

 

[Hurley509]

It's interesting to note that Invincible (and almost all other MJ albums) are doing quite well in the Spotify Top 200 right now, with the album now in its 8th day on the chart - its longest ever run.

But if we're looking at Invincible as an entire project, it's just not very good. It's not something I would have wanted to say in 2001, but with 20 years behind us, and no impact to be had on Michael's career, I can say Invincible is not a great album.

There are a myriad of reasons why. I think first and foremost as has already been discussed his heart clearly wasn't in it. When you hear Off The Wall, Thriller, BAD, Dangerous, HIStory, you hear a man who is inspired. He's bottled lightening in those albums, found his moments and stored them for eternity.

What about Invincible feels particularly inspired?

Nothing. The best of it is nice. The worst of it isn't even worth listening to.

I often feel like a lot of MJ fans give Invincible more props than it deserves, as though they need to do the favour to him. I've heard them call Invincible a masterpiece and to that I ask, if Michael only released Invincible and not every other album in his catalogue, would you be a Michael Jackson fan?

Probably not.

The "dance songs" - if you wish to call them that - lack any kind of funk or rhythm. It is like the soul of Michael Jackson had been replaced by a random collection of industrial factory noises.

Many of the ballads sound much the same and are entirely interchangeable.

Don't get me wrong, Invincible has its moments but they just aren't enough to save the album from being comfortably the worst he ever released.

And it's okay.... you get to released a dud album. Many great artists have done it.

At that point of his life he was heavily drugged and it seems as though he was outsourcing the entire project to new and up and coming talent that simply weren't up to the job - fly by nighters who had their shine in the early 00s but lacked the kind of staying power that a Michael Jackson led team needs to justify their place with an icon.

Even at the 30th Anniversary concert he looked completely and utterly "out of it".

It was a sad era for Michael.

But unfortunately, that was his last album.

So what can we take from it?

Well You Rock My World is "nice". I think Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, Butterflies, and Heaven Can Wait are pretty good.

Not much else to say for the album though.

A more intriguing question for me is was Michael, after Invincible, at any point in his remaining 8 years, able to release another hit album?

I think we see glimmers of an artistic potential at moments of This Is It but we also know that Michael was rarely rehearsing for it.

The moments plucked for the movie were among the best of his entire rehearsal.

But I think if Michael were 'clean' and had his head together, I truly think he could have released another great album.

Invincible just wasn't it!

I think we need the tracks Will.I.Am recorded already.

 

[Hurley509]

I've given the album another listen and there are some songs with interesting concepts and experimentations. I think it could have been a good album if they cut out the fat.

Keep:

You Rock My World
Heaven Can Wait
Butterflies
Break of Dawn
Whatever Happens
Threatened

And some people like Unbreakable for some reason?

I think if you added We've Had Enough, some sort of rearrangement of A Place With No Name, Another Day, Xscape, and maybe a few more tracks you'd have a good album. I just think the album was weighed down with a lot of B sides.

 

[DuranDuran]

At that point of his life he was heavily drugged

Well if that stopped anybody from making music, there would have been very few records released. Not only were many artists doing drugs and/or drank alcohol a lot, so were the label people, managers, concert promoters, radio DJs, roadies, producers, etc. That was during the entire time the recording industry existed. Drugs like LSD are one of the reasons 1960s psychedelic music existed. There's the disco era Studio 54 cocaine parties and so on. A lot of artists who were praised by critics were doing drugs (The Beatles, Eric Clapton, Miles Davis, Elton John, Jimi Hendrix, Marvin Gaye, Funkadelic, etc). Some would trash hotel rooms and other crazy antics such as Ozzy Osbourne snorting ants & the Fleetwood Mac soap opera. I think Keith Richards had his blood replaced several times and snorted his father's (who had been cremated) ashes. The slogan of rock music was "sex, drugs, and rock n roll". Mike's buddies Elizabeth Taylor & Sammy Davis Jr. have done drugs too.

 

[Hot_Street]

At the time YRMW was released, Kylie Minogue dominated the charts with a very catchy song called Can’t Get You Out of My Head.
Michael would've needed something like this. That's why I would've picked Hollywood Tonight as the first single, produced by Teddy Riley.

 

[BuffaloBill87]

It's interesting to note that Invincible (and almost all other MJ albums) are doing quite well in the Spotify Top 200 right now, with the album now in its 8th day on the chart - its longest ever run.

But if we're looking at Invincible as an entire project, it's just not very good. It's not something I would have wanted to say in 2001, but with 20 years behind us, and no impact to be had on Michael's career, I can say Invincible is not a great album.

There are a myriad of reasons why. I think first and foremost as has already been discussed his heart clearly wasn't in it. When you hear Off The Wall, Thriller, BAD, Dangerous, HIStory, you hear a man who is inspired. He's bottled lightening in those albums, found his moments and stored them for eternity.

What about Invincible feels particularly inspired?

Nothing. The best of it is nice. The worst of it isn't even worth listening to.

I often feel like a lot of MJ fans give Invincible more props than it deserves, as though they need to do the favour to him. I've heard them call Invincible a masterpiece and to that I ask, if Michael only released Invincible and not every other album in his catalogue, would you be a Michael Jackson fan?

Probably not.

The "dance songs" - if you wish to call them that - lack any kind of funk or rhythm. It is like the soul of Michael Jackson had been replaced by a random collection of industrial factory noises.

Many of the ballads sound much the same and are entirely interchangeable.

Don't get me wrong, Invincible has its moments but they just aren't enough to save the album from being comfortably the worst he ever released.

And it's okay.... you get to released a dud album. Many great artists have done it.

At that point of his life he was heavily drugged and it seems as though he was outsourcing the entire project to new and up and coming talent that simply weren't up to the job - fly by nighters who had their shine in the early 00s but lacked the kind of staying power that a Michael Jackson led team needs to justify their place with an icon.

Even at the 30th Anniversary concert he looked completely and utterly "out of it".

It was a sad era for Michael.

But unfortunately, that was his last album.

So what can we take from it?

Well You Rock My World is "nice". I think Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, Butterflies, and Heaven Can Wait are pretty good.

Not much else to say for the album though.

A more intriguing question for me is was Michael, after Invincible, at any point in his remaining 8 years, able to release another hit album?

I think we see glimmers of an artistic potential at moments of This Is It but we also know that Michael was rarely rehearsing for it.

The moments plucked for the movie were among the best of his entire rehearsal.

But I think if Michael were 'clean' and had his head together, I truly think he could have released another great album.

Invincible just wasn't it!

I think we need the tracks Will.I.Am recorded already.

The truth ^^^^^^^

 

[BuffaloBill87]

Well if that stopped anybody from making music, there would have been very few records released. Not only were many artists doing drugs and/or drank alcohol a lot, so were the label people, managers, concert promoters, radio DJs, roadies, producers, etc. That was during the entire time the recording industry existed. Drugs like LSD are one of the reasons 1960s psychedelic music existed. There's the disco era Studio 54 cocaine parties and so on. A lot of artists who were praised by critics were doing drugs (The Beatles, Eric Clapton, Miles Davis, Elton John, Jimi Hendrix, Marvin Gaye, Funkadelic, etc). Some would trash hotel rooms and other crazy antics such as Ozzy Osbourne snorting ants & the Fleetwood Mac soap opera. I think Keith Richards had his blood replaced several times and snorted his father's (who had been cremated) ashes. The slogan of rock music was "sex, drugs, and rock n roll". Mike's buddies Elizabeth Taylor & Sammy Davis Jr. have done drugs too.

Yes but by 2001 MJ was passed his creative peak and was 43 with a lot of terrible controversies behind him.

MJ had been sedated and lot touch with reality in his later years. If he was doing drugs during Thriller etc he was young enough to get away with it and function.

 

[Agonum]

The truth ^^^^^^^

Opinion ^^^^^^^

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Hollywood Tonight would not have been a good song to put out in 2001, I don't care what you think. It would be just as downplayed and ignored these days. None of the songs MJ could've put out would've done well at all, even Billie Jean 2 wouldn't do what his earlier records had done. It's barely due to the music, okay.

The narrative became that he was washed up and not as good as he had been since the 80s. If Dangerous and Bad fell victim to that, what makes you think anything else would penetrate that?

 

[Agonum]

At the time YRMW was released, Kylie Minogue dominated the charts with a very catchy song called Can’t Get You Out of My Head.
Michael would've needed something like this. That's why I would've picked Hollywood Tonight as the first single, produced by Teddy Riley.

I’m very glad that song is not on Invincible.

 

[Agonum]

Yes but by 2001 MJ was passed his creative peak and was 43 with a lot of terrible controversies behind him.

MJ had been sedated and lot touch with reality in his later years. If he was doing drugs during Thriller etc he was young enough to get away with it and function.

Are you saying youngsters are better at taking drugs than adults?

 

[BuffaloBill87]

Are you saying youngsters are better at taking drugs than adults?

Not really but I think MJ was hungry during the 80s and fully focused on being the best in the business with very little controversy.

I think MJ post 93 was a different person and by 2001 it has taken it's toll on him sadly.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

MJ did not take drugs, not for recreation. They were painkillers. There's still a huge difference and the stigma of treating them the same bothers me.

 

[DuranDuran]

Hollywood Tonight would not have been a good song to put out in 2001, I don't care what you think. It would be just as downplayed and ignored these days.

I'm sure if Bruno Mars, Lizzo, or Bad Bunny released it right now, it wouldn't be ignored, lol. Even if they just removed Mike's vocals and sang over the exact same track. Bruno's & Lizzo's music tend to be retro sounding anyway, especially Silk Sonic which has Bootsy Collins on a song. Bootsy is in his 70s. Uptown Funk is basically Morris Day type lyrics & sound and one of the songs he did with Cardi B (Finesse) is 1980s New Jack Swing. The music video even copies the 1990s TV show In Living Color. Jennifer Lopez was one of the Fly Girls dancers on the show and so was Carrie Ann one of the judges on Dancing With The Stars.