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Where Invincible went wrong

Oh boy, it's always the same with this album... But I get it, given that it was basically his final piece of work and the inevitable what-ifs connected to this release make it so tempting to discussion haha. Well, I think it was pointless trying to chase what sounded young and cool, Michael was way past this point at the time, age-wise and image-wise. He wasn't ever gonna be as big as he was before the allegations (at least in the US). HIStory was a peak in his career imo, mixing personal songwriting, artistic and creative ideas with timeless hooks and some freakin' good tunes make it my favourite album of his. How to top that? Surely not by trying to sound like something you are not. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great he wanted to reinvent himself, but I believe it was a mistake to make it dependet on the public's opinion. Listening to songs like Hollywood Tonight, Xscape or even Blue Gangsta clearly show that he still had it if he wanted to. I mean to sound ORIGINAL, albeit trying something new and fresh. I know he had the deal with Sony, I know he wanted to prove himself again (I guess that's the curse of having had a life full of success) and I'm also well aware that it's easier said than done, talking from my point of view, almost 25 years later, but it hurts to see that so much potential was kinda wasted. I'd have loved to see him not giving a damn about chart success and staying relevant, he just had to be himself, take his time, not rely on all the yeah-sayers. He was a father and he had problems with drugs/medication, not even mentioning the tremendous psychological problems he was facing (especially at the time), I really wished he would have put himself first instead of trying to please the world, the haters, us fans and anybody else. All of this makes the whole Invincible-discussion even bitterer.
Having said that, I still think that there are some great tunes on the album, but I also agree that there are lots of songs which would have been better as B-Sides (something he sadly never really did), as part of a deluxe edition or whatever. Just out the top of my head I would have kicked Heartbreaker, Invincible, Privacy and Cry. Others, like 2000 Watts, You Are My Life, Don't Walk Away or The Lost Children are at least debatable, but given the fact that there also could have been songs like Hollywood Tonight, Xscape, Blue Gangsta, We've Had Enough, Shout, She Was Lovin' Me... oh boy, what a tragedy.
 
SilkySnare said:
I enjoy not reading these comments while blasting the Invincible album.
It's a great album with such a unique modern yet timeless sound and masterful and dense lyrics.
His vocal delivery is also at its peak.
The songs don't have straight on the nose hooks but are way more subtle and complex.
It's an album that surely grows on you if only you give it a chance. Try listening to it in the car or at home with headphones.

I'm not saying you're not an MJ fan if you don't like Invincible, that would be stupid. But if you don't like Invincible maybe you are just too old or a type of person that wants to hear Thriller for the rest of their lives.
I'm so happy Michael was beyond that and kept evolving and embracing modern technology.
What I would give to hear his next album...
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I have to disagree, it's certainly not a great album . It's average with a capital A. You enjoy it though so that's the main thing.

His vocals on Invincible I also don't think is peak MJ , he sounds very nasally on a lot of the tracks.

Honey after 20 years it's still not grown on me šŸ˜‚

It has nothing to do about being too old to appreciate the album, I was 13 when it first came out and even then didn't think it was all that (I enjoyed it though)

It's all about the quality of the songs and sadly Invincible lacked serious quality.

As a songwriter MJ peaked at Stranger in Moscow, everything else beyond that was pretty average. The media circus around his life started to spiral out of control and he lost his touch.
 
BuffaloBill87 said:
I have to disagree, it's certainly not a great album . It's average with a capital A. You enjoy it though so that's the main thing.

His vocals on Invincible I also don't think is peak MJ , he sounds very nasally on a lot of the tracks.

Honey after 20 years it's still not grown on me šŸ˜‚

It has nothing to do about being too old to appreciate the album, I was 13 when it first came out and even then didn't think it was all that (I enjoyed it though)

It's all about the quality of the songs and sadly Invincible lacked serious quality.

As a songwriter MJ peaked at Stranger in Moscow, everything else beyond that was pretty average. The media circus around his life started to spiral out of control and he lost his touch.
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I had a hard time enjoying it until I gave it a fair chance. But I do think it's this way with many things - stuff that you like immediately, you tend to get bored with pretty soon. And stuff that needs more attention tends to last longer.

Regarding the vocals, I agree he sounds nasally. On some tracks I even imagine him having his mouth full of food. But I do believe this was all intentional. It's the same thing as when he started screaming with Bad. There are still people to this day who say they prefer his cleaner vocals on Thriller. But that's just the thing, he was not your regular singer, he was unique. And ok, maybe you don't like the sound of his vocals, but try focusing on his delivery. The way he says words, the way he weaves together the web of entire song. It's masterful and waaaay beyond what he was doing for example on Thriller.

Well it can be 20 or 200 years of not actually giving music a chance, the result will be the same. I refuse to believe that an MJ fan would not like Invincible after really giving it a chance and going in with an open and modern mind.

Invincible does not lack quality in any way. With one exception being Speechless which sounds like it was recorded in a garage.
 
Hollywood_Tonight said:
I agree with Brad Buxer. The song is horrible, the title itself doesnā€™t make sense and the song doesnā€™t explain what lost children even means or what itā€™s referring to.
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Would you mind telling me what you find confusing about the title?
 
Victorious said:
'Butterflies' might be a hit now due to a TikTok dance or something, at the time no one played it. I am in my forties so a hit would mean it was being played on the radio or MTV. and everyone knew it and could sing it. A catchy MJ hit song would be a 'Remember The Time' or even 'Earth Song'. So yes imo 'Rock My World' was the only hit material on 'Invincible' and maybe, maybe 'Break of Dawn'; but even that one was too weak.'Cry' could be hit material too but was too similar to 'Earth Song', 'Heal The World', 'Man In The Mirror' etc. to make any impact. Michael's vocals wer nothing like his earlier work in terms of quality, stamina or even effort, the production was lame at the time; the first three songs sounded like what Timbaland did better five years earlier and Rodney Jerkins made so much better songs too.

Are there cool tracks, melodies and beats on Invincible? Yes, but in general it's very weak for a MJ album imo
In my opinion yes (but since pretty much every critic agrees it's kinda fact too, lol)
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Define ā€œhit materialā€.
 
BuffaloBill87 said:
I have to disagree, it's certainly not a great album . It's average with a capital A. You enjoy it though so that's the main thing.

His vocals on Invincible I also don't think is peak MJ , he sounds very nasally on a lot of the tracks.

Honey after 20 years it's still not grown on me šŸ˜‚

It has nothing to do about being too old to appreciate the album, I was 13 when it first came out and even then didn't think it was all that (I enjoyed it though)

It's all about the quality of the songs and sadly Invincible lacked serious quality.

As a songwriter MJ peaked at Stranger in Moscow, everything else beyond that was pretty average. The media circus around his life started to spiral out of control and he lost his touch.
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ā€œLost his touchā€? Really?

Yes, Invincible indeed is a great album. In my opinion. Despite you saying otherwise while pretending to deliver facts.

Where exactly do you hear nasality?
 
SilkySnare said:
[ā€¦] Invincible does not lack quality in any way. With one exception being Speechless which sounds like it was recorded in a garage.
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I sat here nodding, and then came thisā€¦ šŸ¤£

What do you mean ā€œin a garageā€?
 
Agonum said:
I sat here nodding, and then came thisā€¦ šŸ¤£

What do you mean ā€œin a garageā€?
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I mean, I've been listening to the song on both CD and vinyl, official releases, and in all versions I hear audio peaking. Like the waveform going into the red zone, making cracking and hissing sounds through the microphone.
It's like there was no final mastering or something...I like the song, don't get me wrong, but the recording itself is really strange.
 
Agonum said:
ā€œLost his touchā€? Really?

Yes, Invincible indeed is a great album. In my opinion. Despite you saying otherwise while pretending to deliver facts.

Where exactly do you hear nasality?
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Yes creativity wise he had lost his touch and could no longer pen a classic song.

How am I pretending to deliver facts? šŸ˜‚ I find it rather the other way around with you. Nobody can diss a song or say this album is poor because you're quick to attack them.

Other than this forum and the odd tiktok video, where is all this love for Invincible stating that it's a classic album?

It got universally panned FFS , you can't deny that , fcker (but you will)

And as for where do I hear nasally vocals, all over the album. His nose was in a very bad condition at this point and I believe this is one the reasons why he sounds like this.
 
Like I've said before, Invincible is oddly Michael Jackson going back to the formula that was used on his solo Motown records: he's handed a bunch of songs written by outsiders, not necessarily with him in mind, and not necessarily grade-A material, and he just puts his vocals on them, without trying to put too much of a personal spin on them. The result is an album with one or two memorable songs, almost by accident, with the rest being impersonal, mediocre pop music that could have come from any other pop act of the era.
 
kreen said:
Like I've said before, Invincible is oddly Michael Jackson going back to the formula that was used on his solo Motown records: he's handed a bunch of songs written by outsiders, not necessarily with him in mind, and not necessarily grade-A material, and he just puts his vocals on them, without trying to put too much of a personal spin on them. The result is an album with one or two memorable songs, almost by accident, with the rest being impersonal, mediocre pop music that could have come from any other pop act of the era.
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Wait until Agonum sees this.... You're spot on btw
 
kreen said:
Like I've said before, Invincible is oddly Michael Jackson going back to the formula that was used on his solo Motown records: he's handed a bunch of songs written by outsiders, not necessarily with him in mind, and not necessarily grade-A material, and he just puts his vocals on them, without trying to put too much of a personal spin on them. The result is an album with one or two memorable songs, almost by accident, with the rest being impersonal, mediocre pop music that could have come from any other pop act of the era.
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Mediocre pop? Excuse me, but Invincible sounds fresh in 2023, how can you say it sounded mediocre in 2001. Should we list some other pop songs that came out in 2001? Let's do that.

Destiny's Child - Survivor
J.Lo - I'm Real and Love Don't Cost a Thing
Shakira - Wherever
Alicia Keys - Fallin'
Janet Jackson - All for You
Dido - Thank You
Eve & Gwen Stefani - Blow Ya Mind
Shaggy - It Wasn't Me
Outkast - Ms. Jackson and So Fresh So Clean
Crazy Town - Butterfly
Nelly Furtado - I'm Like a Bird
U2 - Beautiful Day

You trying to tell me these songs are better or just as good as stuff from Invincible? GTFO
 
SilkySnare said:
Mediocre pop? Excuse me, but Invincible sounds fresh in 2023, how can you say it sounded mediocre in 2001. Should we list some other pop songs that came out in 2001? Let's do that.

Destiny's Child - Survivor
J.Lo - I'm Real and Love Don't Cost a Thing
Shakira - Wherever
Alicia Keys - Fallin'
Janet Jackson - All for You
Dido - Thank You
Eve & Gwen Stefani - Blow Ya Mind
Shaggy - It Wasn't Me
Outkast - Ms. Jackson and So Fresh So Clean
Crazy Town - Butterfly
Nelly Furtado - I'm Like a Bird
U2 - Beautiful Day

You trying to tell me these songs are better or just as good as stuff from Invincible? GTFO
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All those songs were bigger than anything on Invincible and are still well known today. That's a fact .

So to answer your question, yes
 
SilkySnare said:
Gangnam Style was bigger than all of them, what is your point? I'm not debating popularity, I'm debating quality.
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Yes so am I , majority of those songs are noughties classics especially beautiful day, survivor , wherever , fallin, it wasn't me.

What songs are we comparing them against on Invincible? The lost children, privacy , threatened etc?

There are some good tracks on Invincible but nothing stands out as being memorable.

To the hardcore fans of course they will like it but the general public are oblivious to Invincible because it flopped hard.
 
I'm not arguing that Invincible flopped hard, we all know it did. I mean, it flopped hard for Michael's standards. It still sold millions which would be considered a success for most artists.
But whatever, I don't care for general public and numbers because if I did, I would think Thriller is Michael's best album, which for me is clearly not.

I do agree that Invincible lacked a super mega hit, that would play everywhere, like the ones from my list. You Rock my World comes the closest, but keep in mind that one mega hit is what most of those artists got per album. Two if they were lucky and three if they were Jennifer Lopez. So when you look at the entire album of those artists, they are nothing. Invincible's tracklist is super solid. There are maybe two songs that are a bit weaker, namely You Are My Life and Don't Walk Away. These two could be replaced by some unreleased stuff and it would still be fine. But others are either super bangers or wonderful ballads.
 
BuffaloBill87 said:
Ps , threatened is a poor man's Thriller
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In what way?
Thriller talks about watching a scary movie with a girl and Threatened talks about jealous people who try to destroy successful people because they are afraid of them.
The songs are also different in mood and make you move differently. How are they similar?
 
The Hot 100 is the pop chart in the USA. Butterflies made it to #14 which is only 4 behind You Rock My World at #10. You Rock My World got to #13 on the R&B chart. Butterflies couldn't have made it to #14 without radio airplay. There was no streaming then, which is what Billboard uses today as part of their chart criteria. Radio play is also how it made it to #2 on the R&B chart.

Chart positions doesn't necessarily tell how popular songs are anyway. Bad To The Bone by George Thorogood, Back In Black by AC/DC, Rockit by Herbie Hancock, & Stairway To Heaven by Led Zeppelin are a lot better known today than a lot of songs that were #1 and none of the 4 songs had high chart positions on the Hot 100. Isn't She Lovely didn't chart at all in the USA and it's one of Stevie Wonders most popular songs. Because at the time only songs that were released on a 45 single could chart in the singles chart and Isn't She Lovely wasn't. It just got a lot of radio airplay as an album track.
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SilkySnare said:
In what way?
Thriller talks about watching a scary movie with a girl and Threatened talks about jealous people who try to destroy successful people because they are afraid of them.
The songs are also different in mood and make you move differently. How are they similar?
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I consider it one of his spooky songs , thriller , ghosts, is it scary.... Threatened is the worst of the lot.

To me that song doesn't hold up very well today. It's just the same as those but in another format. There's nothing original about it.
 
SilkySnare said:
I'm not arguing that Invincible flopped hard, we all know it did. I mean, it flopped hard for Michael's standards. It still sold millions which would be considered a success for most artists.
But whatever, I don't care for general public and numbers because if I did, I would think Thriller is Michael's best album, which for me is clearly not.

I do agree that Invincible lacked a super mega hit, that would play everywhere, like the ones from my list. You Rock my World comes the closest, but keep in mind that one mega hit is what most of those artists got per album. Two if they were lucky and three if they were Jennifer Lopez. So when you look at the entire album of those artists, they are nothing. Invincible's tracklist is super solid. There are maybe two songs that are a bit weaker, namely You Are My Life and Don't Walk Away. These two could be replaced by some unreleased stuff and it would still be fine. But others are either super bangers or wonderful ballads.
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Speaking of the ballads, I quite like both you are my life and don't walk away, I have no time for the lost children yuck and speechless is very cheesy.

I'll say something positive the second verse of don't walk away... I close my eyes, just to try and see you smile one more time - I think MJ sings this particular section incredibly beautiful.
 
BuffaloBill87 said:
Speaking of the ballads, I quite like both you are my life and don't walk away, I have no time for the lost children yuck and speechless is very cheesy.

I'll say something positive the second verse of don't walk away... I close my eyes, just to try and see you smile one more time - I think MJ sings this particular section incredibly beautiful.
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Don't Walk Away is a song that would have fit on Destiny or Triumph : it's a quality, mature composition that eschews gimmicks and isn't over-produced. MJ sings it well. But it's still a "minor" work, in the sense that it was never going to set the world on fire, and it could have been handed over with similar results to any number of artists. But amid slim pickings, it's one of the tasteful, competent songs on the record.
 
Invincible charted better than HIStory and got better/equal critical reviews than/to HIStory. And Blood on the Dance Floor, which was looked at entirely as a joke by these tabloids. But none of these fans criticizing the album are gonna say that. Anybody arguing they haven't had to big up every record MJ made post Thriller is just losing the plot. We're talking about using your ears and not your social media addled brain.
 
SilkySnare said:
Mediocre pop? Excuse me, but Invincible sounds fresh in 2023, how can you say it sounded mediocre in 2001. Should we list some other pop songs that came out in 2001? Let's do that.

Destiny's Child - Survivor
J.Lo - I'm Real and Love Don't Cost a Thing
Shakira - Wherever
Alicia Keys - Fallin'
Janet Jackson - All for You
Dido - Thank You
Eve & Gwen Stefani - Blow Ya Mind
Shaggy - It Wasn't Me
Outkast - Ms. Jackson and So Fresh So Clean
Crazy Town - Butterfly
Nelly Furtado - I'm Like a Bird
U2 - Beautiful Day

You trying to tell me these songs are better or just as good as stuff from Invincible? GTFO
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All of these were better pop songs than stuff from Invincible yes, except 'Rock My World'
 
BuffaloBill87 said:
Speaking of the ballads, I quite like both you are my life and don't walk away, I have no time for the lost children yuck and speechless is very cheesy.

I'll say something positive the second verse of don't walk away... I close my eyes, just to try and see you smile one more time - I think MJ sings this particular section incredibly beautiful.
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'Don't Walk Away' is a nice song but even a similar, unreleased song like 'Dream Away' sounds way better
 
BuffaloBill87 said:
I consider it one of his spooky songs , thriller , ghosts, is it scary.... Threatened is the worst of the lot.

To me that song doesn't hold up very well today. It's just the same as those but in another format. There's nothing original about it.
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Define ā€œoriginalā€.
 
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