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Atheist thread

It's interesting that K.O.S. brings up physics a lot as I agree with many of his points. But I think that in fact biology is the best way to understand the complexity of our universe... to understand life in general! I've been thinking a lot about gods and faith recently since I've discovered this thread, even though I am as devoted atheist as K.O.S. is for years... I just can't get why people still believe. It was understandable to believe in gods a thousand years ago - even a hundered. But now? Human race is much too much advanced in science to keep these beliefs IMO. But the only reasonable explanation as to why people keep believing is the one prof. Dawkins provides - belief in any religion is not a thing people can choose and reasonably decide on... it's imbued by parents at a very young age and in adult life works the same as fear of fire... that's how human brain works. Some parts of humans conciousness are created at a very young age and remain the same for the rest of ones lifetime. This goes for religion and many other things, such as conditioned responses...

Human body is nothing but a set of cells... The way our brain works is because of evolution and we are only a tiny bit different to other animals we share the earth with... Yet this tiny difference gives us imagination and the power of creative thinking - and it created god(s) thousands years ago as a form of explenation of the way people percieved things. Now it creates science. Is it so hard to understand that when we die, our brain stops functioning and just shuts down? Our concioussness which is just a huge web of connections set in a piece of flesh ends then... just like any other beings. We can last only as memories in other peoples hearts. That's the beauty of being a human. We understand things that never any biological being in the history understood and will probably never understand. The only way to achieve immortality is not by the way people always thought of - by keeping our bodies alive. And it's even more plain that it's not by living an afterlife or going to heaven. I think that we are closer than ever to finding a way of neverending. It's by technology. Transferring human conciousness to a computer or creating one in the digital world is just a matter of decades IMO. We'll see. Till then - we CAN too be immortal. We can live a good positive life and spread love. That's what Michael did and he stole my heart.

I for instance don't need gods to live... But I do need faith. As everyone, because that is totally natural and that's how a brain works. I believe in humanity as Michael did. I believe in the right doing. I believe in the power of humans creativity. I BELIEVE IN MYSELF.

Just to sum it all up - i'm happy that I'm a human being and am able live my life. I know it will end one day but I won't even know then. It will just happen. What's wrong with that?
 
K.O.S. said:
Well first to get you going, here is one little fact you can look up. In the US, most of the people in prison are religious. only a few per cent are atheists. Why is that?

In Norway, the rate of murder and criminality has gone down as the number of atheists have gone up. And it is not just us. Every country in the world where atheism dominate, these statistics are the same, and they're history are the same. Thats the general argument of why atheism leads to prosperity.

The second argument is the psychology that explains why atheists are more likely to behave then religious people. It also has to do with how atheists have a more structured understanding of how society works. Not saying all believers are stupid, but in general atheists as statistics show tend to be more educated and therefore more able to function in society. Not counting all, but the majority.

But this is complicated and very long to explain, so I would suggest if you want to know, read about it yourself.

But the statistics don't lie.

I know that having an entire world follow this wise course of action is going to be difficult, you don't have to pretend I live in a fantasy world thinking shit up. I view the bigger picture when I say that the rest of the world will follow. To explain that, read Darwins book called "Origin Of Species" and look up natural selection and what that means.

When you have done that, you will understand this frace. "Natural selection is the driving force of evolution, and the religious are at the bottom of the human evolution". It's harsh but the science is valid. Natural Selection will alone make sure, unless we don't kill ourselves before then, that humanity no longer has religion in it. It is inevitable.

It has already started. The number of atheists grow each day. Religion looses its hold more and more. Just look at what creationists are doing now. Using foul play tactics to win their case, because everywhere they go, Intelligent Design gets booted out. They try to hijack schools and influence kids, and the more they do, the more society fights back.

The only reason why religion has not yet been totally banned in some countries are because of the reaction it would lead to now in 2009. But if they look 100 years into the future, they see laws like this existing. But only in a public view. One would still be able to believe whatever you wish, but you would not be able to create a religion out of it.

That is what I want. If we get rid of religion, faith and the belief in God will be extinct in a few generations.
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"Every country in the world where atheism dominate, these statistics are the same, and they're history are the same."

No in Sweden it's gone up.

"The second argument is the psychology that explains why atheists are more likely to behave then religious people. It also has to do with how atheists have a more structured understanding of how society works."

What? What do you base this on?

"The number of atheists grow each day."

In some countries this is true, but not in all. There will always be religious people and banning belief in God won't make your case better.

In Sweden where atheism dominates and increases the rates of suicides and depression has gone up very much especially among young people , so I don't buy the argument that atheism leads to prosperity. I'm not saying that that these suicides are just because of atheism, it can be difficult to determine exactly why people kill themselves

Why do you think that faith and belief in God is such a bad thing? I'm not hurting you with my faith.
 
Im not an atheist, but I dont believe in religion.. I come from a very religious background and it has caused me more pain than happiness..
 
I'd like to believe in a higher power. I'd like to believe there is life after this and that Michael will live on. Its scary to think otherwise :cry:
 
I have one question how do you guys deal with things? like in my case I need to believe in something in order for me to combat whatever it is that I'm facing like problems or any hardships in life...

I don't mean to offend just curious here. :)
 
amrice said:
I have one question how do you guys deal with things? like in my case I need to believe in something in order for me to combat whatever it is that I'm facing like problems or any hardships in life...

I don't mean to offend just curious here. :)
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I deal with things by using logic and rational thought. I try to find out why things are the way they are and why things happen. If I feel down I have friends and family.
 
ShadowMaster said:
Belief in God has nothing to do with religion.
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Belief in god comes from religion, so yes it has very much to do with it.

If religion did not exist and your parents or whoever told you about god never told you about it, you would not know about it.

And if humans learned to deal with mortality, there would never be any reason to believe in god.

The fear of death is the main source for the belief in the afterlife and god.

And religion is the tool evil people use to exploit that fear.
 
Aeneiden said:
"Every country in the world where atheism dominate, these statistics are the same, and they're history are the same."

No in Sweden it's gone up.

"The second argument is the psychology that explains why atheists are more likely to behave then religious people. It also has to do with how atheists have a more structured understanding of how society works."

What? What do you base this on?

"The number of atheists grow each day."

In some countries this is true, but not in all. There will always be religious people and banning belief in God won't make your case better.

In Sweden where atheism dominates and increases the rates of suicides and depression has gone up very much especially among young people , so I don't buy the argument that atheism leads to prosperity. I'm not saying that that these suicides are just because of atheism, it can be difficult to determine exactly why people kill themselves

Why do you think that faith and belief in God is such a bad thing? I'm not hurting you with my faith.
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Statistics show this clearly. In Countries with wealth and high education, the number of atheists are higher.

The rate of suicides in Norway and Sweden are among the lowest in the world. Look it up.

Depression in people has nothing to do with atheism.

Faith and the belief in god hurts the potential of mankind. Telling kids that they won't die and that hell exists is damaging for their intellectual development and telling them that they could suffer eternal hell is evil. Telling kids that what you believe is the truth when you can't even prove it, retards their potential. This is why religion has been thrown out of most schools in western society.

If you don't believe me, read about something called "The Dark Ages" and see what happened back then. You may also find that today we face the same threat. Religion is trying to force its way into society and laws. History has shown us over and over again that superstition causes a society harm in the long run.


quote:

"The second argument is the psychology that explains why atheists are more likely to behave then religious people. It also has to do with how atheists have a more structured understanding of how society works."

What? What do you base this on?


It is based on many things. Atheists use logic and reason and empathy when dealing with society. Statistics show that atheists are less likely to kill, steal and cause havoc to society. In the US most people in jail are religious.

People with faith have a tendency to be intellectually lazy. When you don't know the answer to a question, you use "god did it" instead of trying to find out what actually is.


The reason why we learn what we learn in school, is so that our intellect can develop critical thinking skills. The more knowledge you have, the more you understand.

Statistics again show that religious people have less knowledge about the world, and atheists have more knowledge. This doesn't mean all faith people are ignorant, and is not the point of the statistics. They show that without proper critical thinking skills, you are less likely to be prepared for the challenges life presents you.

That is why a lot of people, like myself advocate atheism and attack religion.

We just don't want the Dark Ages to happen again.

I mean, if you have read the Bible, would you rather have a society decide laws and rules, or would you have your government create these laws based on the Bible? You must have read the Bible to answer this.

The answer is hell no. The Bible is evil and full of logical contradictions and should never ever be used in office/law in any country. Unfortunately some people think it should, and that is why people like me speak out.

What will happen, is that people in a few generations will throw religion away.

I certainly hope so. I don't want my kids to be brainwashed by people who believe in bronze age myths that has no bearing in truth whatsoever according to normal standards of evidence.
 
interesting thread k.o.s.

i,m not an atheist......but more like something everywhere in between.
I like to call myself humanist....i stronly believe in myself and my own power.
but, hmm...this thread is about something else, so i will kick my own but to some other thread *lol*
 
dancemasterman said:
what needs to go extinct is the belief that is okay to ban a culture or a way of life. We need to be more accepting and tolerant. The reason religion is so dominant in the world is because it makes threats of punishment for anything different such as hanging, stoning, hell etc. Talking about banning religion and threating people with criminal charges is nothing but more of the same.

We don't need to use laws to control this kind of stuff. Just use facts and evidence and set an example for acceptance and tolerance.
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I agree with you, however when it comes to education, we need these laws because they will make the chance of human survival more likely. We have to stop indoctrination of children, and let them explore life on their own. We must guide them yes, but not invoke unproven beliefs into their minds because that will retard their potential in life.

These types of laws are already in effect many places and it has proven to benefit society.
 
jenny* said:
interesting thread k.o.s.

i,m not an atheist......but more like something everywhere in between.
I like to call myself humanist....i stronly believe in myself and my own power.
but, hmm...this thread is about something else, so i will kick my own but to some other thread *lol*
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Don't :)

I like what you said. "I believe in myself and my own power"

That is a sign of inner strength and should be commended.

Keep it up:)
 
okey kos, when you like me to stay...i will...haha....

I agree with the thing you say about people who can,t find the answer they say...well. it,s god.
Many people are hiding themselves behind a religion or god.

And the forgiveness thing.... hmm.......forgiveness can,t be an endless thing when you aslways make the same mistakes.

When i think about it, i truly believe in the good and bad.
And when you do something good it will come back to you.
When you do bad, it will also come back to you.

Karma.......
 
(i,m going to see you at the tribute in best.....well, you don,t know yet, but we do... i help thijs behind the scenes to take care of the artists and acts that are performing....lol.....so, we will meet soon!)
 
jenny* said:
(i,m going to see you at the tribute in best.....well, you don,t know yet, but we do... i help thijs behind the scenes to take care of the artists and acts that are performing....lol.....so, we will meet soon!)
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Yeah?

I look forward to that:)

See you in Best then.

All the Best, lol

Kent;)
 
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I don't have a religion, I never had one. But I do believe in spirits and ghosts and lets say... existance after death.
 
I've decided to hit a homerun against religion and faith.

Check out these YouTube channels made by scientists and rational thinkers.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Thunderf00t

http://www.youtube.com/user/DonExodus2

http://www.youtube.com/user/AronRa

http://www.youtube.com/user/FFreeThinker

http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54

http://www.youtube.com/user/Potholer54debunks

http://www.youtube.com/user/richarddawkinsdotnet

Watch all the videos on all these channels.

And then you will know just how much religion fails, and why we should abandon it.
 
ill go out on a limb here and say im neither an atheist or a believer in christ (as the bible paints it). ive often found the whole i believe in christ bible thing a bit strange but think it comes down to people wanting to believe there is more to life after death and that the bad and wicked will be punished and the good will be rewarded. the whole idea of a god who created the world and sits back observing all the bloodshed carried out is a bit mad but then religion often comes down to personal belief. in many ways im sort of glad people believe in god because it helps keep the masses in line. can you imagine the chaos that would happen if someone could prove god didnt exist?

basically i think people should be free to believe what they want and maybe there is something more but i dont believe the answers come from the interpretations of the original text in the bible nor many of the corrupt members in the church who preach one thing and practice another
 
K.O.S. said:
I also think people should believe what they want, but at the same time realize that it is only a belief and not try to influence society or kids with it.

Here is another smackdown to religion;)

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread149480/pg1
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Ah, I found this thread at last! Ok, here we can make any debates you want! I'm past my bedtime here by far, but I'll make a little post. lol
For example, I agree from that above post that Christianity for various reasons decided to blend in with pagan beliefs. This is very true. Nobody can argue that, even many priests I know. I was raised a Christian (then I became an agnostic, then an extreme atheist, then back to being an agnostic again and finally spiritual, lol) but I don't like dogmas or religions either. I'd prefer it if people were spiritual rather than strictly religious. I'll be back later on with some more thoughts. :)
 
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sunnyday81 said:
Ah, I found this thread at last! Ok, here we can make any debates you want! I'm past my bedtime here by far, but I'll make a little post. lol
For example, I agree from that above post that Christianity for various reasons decided to blend in with pagan beliefs. This is very true. Nobody can argue that, even many priests I know. I was raised a Christian but I don't like dogmas or religions either. I'd prefer it if people were spiritual rather than strictly religious. I'll be back later on with some more thoughts. :)
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Hey:)

I am not totally against spirituality because I have found that it can have healing applications for some people. But my view of what is spiritual is like how I view music, dance and art in general. I do not associate it with the supernatural.

But when people start to tell me they know what spirits/ghosts do or don't do my head starts to spin.

I just remind them that they forgot something important. Proving to me that spirits exist. It is the same with people who claim to know Gods mind, when they don't even know if God exist. It is like me telling you what Michael used to think for himself, when I have no way of knowing that. See my point?

But just to let you know. The reason why I ramble on in the psychic threads is because I know what kind of people who claim to be able to talk to Michael's spirit are. I also know that a lot of people are in emotional distress because of Michael, and I know some people will exploit that.

I know some of the dangers that can happen when you experience a traumatic experience and it can be at times dangerous to let your emotional state run wild before you have even had the chance to deal with it. I have tried to explain this, but everytime I do people think it is a debate over belief. I just call out these charlatans for what they are. But at the same time I try to prevent people from suffering from potential PTSD. They need counseling, not spiritual guides who claim the can talk to the dead. I know how PTSD is treated and the first and most important thing is to let them deal with their emotions.

Putting ideas into people's head that allow them to forget how they feel is potentially dangerous.

I know why some of my posts get to people, but I take that risk. I have seen people loose themselves after suffering from something traumatic and if I can prevent it, I will.

I know some people who desperately need something to hold on to will read those threads, and my posts will perhaps prevent them from falling into what could be a potentially dangerous trap.
 
I agree with all the points you make. They are very valid and all the things you mention can happen. It's of course a risk - which I believe however sometimes has to be taken because of all the enormous healing properties it can offer, and which will very possibly outweigh the risk. I also speak from experience as I have suffered from grief many times over the years and I KNOW how healing spirituality is. I'm just saying an open mind is essential when dealing with such things. :)
 
sunnyday81 said:
I agree with all the points you make. They are very valid and all the things you mention can happen. It's of course a risk - which I believe however sometimes has to be taken because of all the enormous healing properties it can offer, and which will very possibly outweigh the risk. I also speak from experience as I have suffered from grief many times over the years and I KNOW how healing spirituality is. I'm just saying an open mind is essential when dealing with such things. :)
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Off course. But the thing is, and this is important.

We humans have a lot of different defence mechanisms in our brain. One of these is when we suffer something traumatic we supress our emotions, and this is where PTSD can occur.

I know it feels good and all that to listen to psychics etc and I know why some people really want to believe it, and I am not addressing you specifically as I do not know you that well, or any other person as I have to little information to know for sure. But when Gary went public and let the world know some fans had killed themselves, I knew that there is a good chance that a lot of fans have PTSD or are in risk of getting it.

And I also know from learning about the disorder and how it is treated, that some things you keep away until such people have had a chance to deal with how they feel.

That is why I said the thread should be closed, not because I oppose superstition, but because I do not wish for people to be at risk from long term suffering.

Such threads should be locked until some time has passed and people have had their chance to deal with this grief.

But not only do these threads continue, people who obviously are only out to exploit people in pain roam around free and talk none sense filling people's heads with things that could cause them to supress their emotions even further.

We then have a situation where some people could end up being on medication for the rest of their lives or even worse kill themselves, as PTSD can lead to that. I have seen just how bad such a situation can get in real life and I can tell you it is no joke.

So I wish people would pay attention to that, instead of my little posts wich are only designed with clear tactics to expose any person trying to exploit others.

If you study my posts, you will see how I pick apart arguments and put them back together. It is just something I learned from studying science in school. We learn how to analyze arguments by using deductive reasoning and logic.

I also play it very careful, not to address beliefs but only claims about truths. And at the same time, I point out the difference between them by using analogies. But unfortunately some people take these analogies literally and miss the point I am trying to make.

I play it like this, partially because of the forum rules, but also because I know how some people get offended easily.

I think I will create a thread about PTSD, talk a little about what it is and post some links to some sites with information about it and let people learn on their own.
 
Yes, a thread about PTSD would be nice. There you could perhaps offer some valuable info. It's very serious confition of course. I've known some personal examples as well. I believe the people who comitted suicide would be susceptible to this but would also have prior undiagnosed phychological issues in order to reach that far as to commit suicide. In terms of thread safety, yes, perhaps it would be wiser to wait a little longer to get over the various stages of grief, but... that's not very possible... New threads will pop up and replace the old ones, if not on this forum then on many many others. I do stand by my position however that as long as you are careful and trust your gut instint, then everything should be fine when dealing with "supernatural" situations.
I should be sleeping now, so I'd better go. lol Talk later... :)
 
sunnyday81 said:
Yes, a thread about PTSD would be nice. There you could perhaps offer some valuable info. It's very serious confition of course. I've known some personal examples as well. I believe the people who comitted suicide would be susceptible to this but would also have prior undiagnosed phychological issues in order to reach that far as to commit suicide. In terms of thread safety, yes, perhaps it would be wiser to wait a little longer to get over the various stages of grief, but... that's not very possible... New threads will pop up and replace the old ones, if not on this forum then on many many others. I do stand by my position however that as long as you are careful and trust your gut instint, then everything should be fine when dealing with "supernatural" situations.
I should be sleeping now, so I'd better go. lol Talk later... :)
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Yeah I better sleep myself, it is morning here now, lol. Thank you for understanding my concerns.

Have a good night/morning sleep;)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RElxIGp3Jtk

As I see some people do not understand the difference between knowledge and belief, I thought I give you a description of what belief is and what knowledge is.

I hope everyone spend some time reading this and thinking about it, because it is very important that one understand the difference between the two words.

Knowledge:

http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_development/Philos/WhatIsKnowledge.htm

Belief:

http://changingminds.org/explanations/belief/what_is_belief.htm

A lot of people think that their beliefs counts as knowledge, and that leads not only to logical fallacies but also intellectual dead ends. Science is a tool of thought that sets a part belief from knowledge and keep personal feelings out of the quest for knowledge.

The scientific method works on a set of rules that are designed to keep people from making the fatal error of thinking a belief is the same as knowledge. This is so that science will work, and that we can apply science to better understand the world, and develop technology.

Unfortunately a lot of people are what we call science illiterates. Misunderstandings of what scientific terminology is. One common mistake is the misunderstanding of the word theory. Many believe that theory means "an idea" or " a hunch". But in science such notions do not exist. A theory is the highest form of evidence/explanation you can achieve. It is even higher then what we call facts.
 
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