Atheist thread

scottishMJdude

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Interesting....

But there is one question that must be answered:

What happened that made these atoms get here? What makes that electromagnetic force stop from letting these atoms go right through each other? Who or what does that?

God has often been used to answer the things we do not yet know or understand, just because there is no scientific explanation let us not quickly jump to the idea 'oh it must be God'. We once thought God created life in a very exact manner but we can now explain how we came to have 4 limbs and 2 eyes through evolution.

Maybe the atoms where ALWAYS there, who says there has to be finite starting point! (Speculation on my part of course)
 

Bob George

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I remember the old atheist thread. It went on forever. I hope this one does too.

It's such a good feeling to acknowledge that there is no god. It just seems to take a huge weight off your shoulders. Many people go through life questioning if there is a god. It's so fulfilling to finally acknowledge that there isn't. And then you realise every time you do something nice you are just being good for goodness sake. Every time a human being accomplishes something great it wasn't the work of god it was the work of humanity. We have the power and goodness inside of us to do great things and it doesn't come from anything or anybody but ourselves. It's such a beautiful realisation. It really warms my heart when I just think about how there is no creator, there is no divine dictator, there is no one watching over us carefully guiding us through the plan he had for us. We do it all ourselves. It gives you such a great love for humanity and the power of the individual. And when you acknowledge there is no god, you just feel so free. As they say, the truth will set you free. It really is a wonderful feeling. "There is no god"... it feels so good to say it!
 

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God has often been used to answer the things we do not yet know or understand, just because there is no scientific explanation let us not quickly jump to the idea 'oh it must be God'. We once thought God created life in a very exact manner but we can now explain how we came to have 4 limbs and 2 eyes through evolution.

Maybe the atoms where ALWAYS there, who says there has to be finite starting point! (Speculation on my part of course)

You might be right. Maybe the Atom is God. It seems that every living thing or none living thing is made up of an Atom or atoms...:cheeky:
 

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Very well said Hardcastle...I totally agree 100%!! I couldn't have worded it better myself. :yes:

Thanks Steve. It is good to know that someone else shares my sentiments regarding religion on this message board.

Every time a human being accomplishes something great it wasn't the work of god it was the work of humanity.

Indeed. It's always good to be respectful but giving credit to god is a wasted opportunity to compliment and pay respect to very real living and breathing individuals.
 

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A THEORY means that based on some evidence some things can be proven true but it doesn't prove absolute certainty. There still can be questions. A THEORY doesn't prove absolute fact or truth. And scientist do not try to dis-prove that there is a God either. Many scientist will tell you that they do believe in a God or being.

Gravity is a theory that has been proven. Whether you believe in the law of gravity or not, it's effects you can not escape. And understanding the theory of gravity is meaningless. Stephen Hawkins my know the theory of gravity for all it's scientific worth and a village idiot my not know anything, but if the both of them jump off of a building, they are going to hit the ground with the same exact force.

I see the supreme being the same way. Because I don't see a God or force or Being, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

When I look out at the world, I am looking at God or a Supreme Being in it's many many manifested forms. I don't think of God as an individual from a religeous viewpoint.

I think you are getting too wrap up in the term "GOD" Let go of the different religious terms of what God is and look at a FORCE. There is something responsible for all this.

AND STILL ALL THE SCIENTIFIC THEORIES DO NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION WHY????

A theory never proves anything. Gravity has been proven, but the theory still exists. A theory is only meant to explain evidence, not prove anything.

Here, I'll give a link at the bottom to a site that explains a Scientific Theory in detail.

Remember we are talking about "Scientific Theory" It holds a special meaning and it is important to understand what it means.

No one denies that something is responsible for the Universe. Scientists are open to this idea. they just have a rule wich never changes. Just because you don't know the answer, you don't go about making things up. You investigate and try to find out. Religion does not do that. And God came from people who did not know, and religion was created by those people. The point is that it does not get us anywhere just believing stuff without reason.

The modern world would not exist if everyone thought like that. We would not be talking to each other right now if people thought like that.

No one can justify a belief in God by rational means, and that is why I don't believe.

And again, you are using this notion that because I can not prove to you that God does not exist, there is a chance it might exist. That is a logical fallacy.

You can not disprove The Flying Spaghetti Monster, so that means there must be a chance it exists. See my point here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory


Also here is a thought that might get people thinking.

Why do we not believe Michael is a pedophile? Because we investigated the available evidence and it was empirically demonstrated to us that this was a lie.

What about the people who believe he is a pedophile? Do they have some form of empirical evidence that he is? No. They read a newspaper and heard he was accused and assumed that this was true.

Now, please understand this analogy.

ALL of you heard about God from either your parents or a priest, in school or somewhere else. Some of you believed it without thinking about it. Even I did as a child. Some of you as you grew older started to question your belief. You applied critical thinking and you investigated the available evidence. Some of you discovered that there IS no evidence, so you thought to yourself "Hey why do I believe this"

I rarely encounter people with faith who actually cares why they believe. The belief is there for self assurance. people fear death, they need purpose and sometime people get lost. I understand that religion can be an answer for some, but I disagree that it is a good answer. Some people feel good having faith, but that again is in my opinion irrelevant when it comes to the truth aspect of it. Drugs make you feel good also, but does that mean everyone should take drugs?

I think humanity would be better off without religion and blind faith. We have shown so many times throughout human history that logic and reason makes the world go forward.

Atheistic countries are more peaceful and prosper.
 
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K.O.S.

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Interesting....

But there is one question that must be answered:

What happened that made these atoms get here? What makes that electromagnetic force stop from letting these atoms go right through each other? Who or what does that?

Read about The Second Law of Thermodynamics, and you will get your answer:)

I recommend reading quantum theory. It takes a while to wrap your head around it, but once you get the hang of it, these questions become somewhat answered. You will know eventually what I mean by somewhat;)
 

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;A theory never proves anything. Gravity has been proven, but the theory still exists. A theory is only meant to explain evidence, not prove anything.

Here, I'll give a link at the bottom to a site that explains a Scientific Theory in detail.

Remember we are talking about "Scientific Theory" It holds a special meaning and it is important to understand what it means.

No one denies that something is responsible for the Universe. Scientists are open to this idea. they just have a rule wich never changes. Just because you don't know the answer, you don't go about making things up. You investigate and try to find out. Religion does not do that. And God came from people who did not know, and religion was created by those people. The point is that it does not get us anywhere just believing stuff without reason.

The modern world would not exist if everyone thought like that. We would not be talking to each other right now if people thought like that.

No one can justify a belief in God by rational means, and that is why I don't believe.

And again, you are using this notion that because I can not prove to you that God does not exist, there is a chance it might exist. That is a logical fallacy.

You can not disprove The Flying Spaghetti Monster, so that means there must be a chance it exists. See my point here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory


Also here is a thought that might get people thinking.

Why do we not believe Michael is a pedophile? Because we investigated the available evidence and it was empirically demonstrated to us that this was a lie.

What about the people who believe he is a pedophile? Do they have some form of empirical evidence that he is? No. They read a newspaper and heard he was accused and assumed that this was true.

Now, please understand this analogy.

ALL of you heard about God from either your parents or a priest, in school or somewhere else. Some of you believed it without thinking about it. Even I did as a child. Some of you as you grew older started to question your belief. You applied critical thinking and you investigated the available evidence. Some of you discovered that there IS no evidence, so you thought to yourself "Hey why do I believe this"

I rarely encounter people with faith who actually cares why they believe. The belief is there for self assurance. people fear death, they need purpose and sometime people get lost. I understand that religion can be an answer for some, but I disagree that it is a good answer. Some people feel good having faith, but that again is in my opinion irrelevant when it comes to the truth aspect of it. Drugs make you feel good also, but does that mean everyone should take drugs?

I think humanity would be better off without religion and blind faith. We have shown so many times throughout human history that logic and reason makes the world go forward.

Atheistic countries are more peaceful and prosper.

to the bolded quotes:

what is evidence without proof and what is proof without evidence?

you are discounting a whole group of people who got somewhere with their religion.

how is there logic and reason, when you keep ending up with another question to your findings?

the united states remains a peaceful and prosperous nation, and has religion, alongside people who do not believe.

there are plenty of people who can tell you proof of their relationship with God, but it is your choice to dismiss them, so that's how it can compare to Michael's trial.
 

144000

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Read about The Second Law of Thermodynamics, and you will get your answer:)

I recommend reading quantum theory. It takes a while to wrap your head around it, but once you get the hang of it, these questions become somewhat answered. You will know eventually what I mean by somewhat;)

to me, the word 'somewhat' should never be entered. either it's total, or not. otherwise you are in the same boat with people of faith, who will, by the way, argue that they have unmitigated evidence of their faith.

the difference between them and you, is that they say they have a total answer. but saying that offends some people.

ultimately, no matter how much reading is done, of the Bible, or, of your suggestions, people will either choose to dismiss or not dismiss on both sides of the equation. it's up to them.
 

K.O.S.

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to me, the word 'somewhat' should never be entered. either it's total, or not. otherwise you are in the same boat with people of faith, who will, by the way, argue that they have unmitigated evidence of their faith.

the difference between them and you, is that they say they have a total answer. but saying that offends some people.

ultimately, no matter how much reading is done, of the Bible, or, of your suggestions, people will either choose to dismiss or not dismiss on both sides of the equation. it's up to them.

I used the word somewhat to hint to some interesting facts about quantum physics. In our form of reality there offcourse is never something or somewhat. That is the agnostic point of view. But in quantum physics the rules of the game are somewhat different.

In quantum physics "cause and effect" have no meaning. Something does not come from something and the laws of physics do no apply on this level. Particles exist in all locations at the same time, and can travel in any direction at the same time. They can also appear and disappear at random leaving no trace where they came from. It is because of this scientists are also open to the idea that The Universe was created out of nothing.

In quantum physics, something and somewhat is very relevant.

Anyway, I know that some people will reject certain ideas. That is a given, and not relevant to this discussion. My concern is WHY people believe what they believe and what consequences that holds. And as history has shown time and time again, is that irrational beliefs can lead to irrational conduct. That is the only reason why I bother to discuss religion, is because of its implications to society and the human race in general.
 
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144000

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I used the word somewhat to hint to some interesting facts about quantum physics. In our form of reality there offcourse is never something or somewhat. That is the agnostic point of view. But in quantum physics the rules of the game are somewhat different.

In quantum physics "cause and effect" have no meaning. Something does not come from something and the laws of physics do no apply on this level. Particles exist in all locations at the same time, and can travel in any direction at the same time. They can also appear and disappear at random leaving no trace where they came from. It is because of this scientists are also open to the idea that The Universe was created out of nothing.

In quantum physics, something and somewhat is very relevant.

Anyway, I know that some people will reject certain ideas. That is a given, and not relevant to this discussion. My concern is WHY people believe what they believe and what consequences that holds. And as history has shown time and time again, is that irrational beliefs can lead to irrational conduct. That is the only reason why I bother to discuss religion, is because of its implications to society and the human race in general.

there are people who commit what you call 'irrational' acts, no matter what they believe, and if they don't believe anything at all. and what do you mean by 'irrational'? are you saying violent acts? because there are people who commit violent acts that have no religious belief. and then again, the usa government or any government believes in declaring war, which is violent, to protect themselves, if they are being attacked. so, i don't know what you mean by irrational. the definition of irrational usually is someone's opinion. the two boys who shot up Columbine were anti religious. now, i'm assumming you mean 'violent' when you say 'irrational'. otherwise, or even so, the term 'irrational', is a loaded word. the guys who shot up Columbine would reason that religion ruined their lives, and they need to get back at people. in other words, everybody says they have a reason for their violence. and, of course there are war protesters who say all war is irrational.
 
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pamarella

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A theory never proves anything. Gravity has been proven, but the theory still exists. A theory is only meant to explain evidence, not prove anything.

Here, I'll give a link at the bottom to a site that explains a Scientific Theory in detail.

Remember we are talking about "Scientific Theory" It holds a special meaning and it is important to understand what it means.

No one denies that something is responsible for the Universe. Scientists are open to this idea. they just have a rule wich never changes. Just because you don't know the answer, you don't go about making things up. You investigate and try to find out. Religion does not do that. And God came from people who did not know, and religion was created by those people. The point is that it does not get us anywhere just believing stuff without reason.

The modern world would not exist if everyone thought like that. We would not be talking to each other right now if people thought like that.

No one can justify a belief in God by rational means, and that is why I don't believe.

And again, you are using this notion that because I can not prove to you that God does not exist, there is a chance it might exist. That is a logical fallacy.

You can not disprove The Flying Spaghetti Monster, so that means there must be a chance it exists. See my point here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory


Also here is a thought that might get people thinking.

Why do we not believe Michael is a pedophile? Because we investigated the available evidence and it was empirically demonstrated to us that this was a lie.

What about the people who believe he is a pedophile? Do they have some form of empirical evidence that he is? No. They read a newspaper and heard he was accused and assumed that this was true.

Now, please understand this analogy.

ALL of you heard about God from either your parents or a priest, in school or somewhere else. Some of you believed it without thinking about it. Even I did as a child. Some of you as you grew older started to question your belief. You applied critical thinking and you investigated the available evidence. Some of you discovered that there IS no evidence, so you thought to yourself "Hey why do I believe this"

I rarely encounter people with faith who actually cares why they believe. The belief is there for self assurance. people fear death, they need purpose and sometime people get lost. I understand that religion can be an answer for some, but I disagree that it is a good answer. Some people feel good having faith, but that again is in my opinion irrelevant when it comes to the truth aspect of it. Drugs make you feel good also, but does that mean everyone should take drugs?

I think humanity would be better off without religion and blind faith. We have shown so many times throughout human history that logic and reason makes the world go forward.

Atheistic countries are more peaceful and prosper.

Well I do see what you mean that we can't prove God existence from a religeous point of view. I mean the writings in religeous books such as the Bible, Torah or Koran do not prove there is a God or Supreme Being with the text alone.

However, I do believe that when people have sincere faith in all of these books and prayer, the proof that God existence is revealed. I believe whoever is responsible for our existence answeres to whomever we believe it to be. The name and the religeon really doesn't matter.

There are some amazing life stories where people have been at a crucial point in there lives and no one or nothing was there but "God". You have people who didn't believe in God have changed their minds when they've had a life altering experience.

Maybe He/She/It reveals itself in that form, through our experiences. Good and Bad.

But I will tell you that I don't believe in Satan.
 

K.O.S.

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I fail to see how faith equals proof of Gods existence. Faith is believing something without evidence. I just don't see what stories people tell is any evidence for a God. They are just stories. The problem here I think is that people take it is a given that there is a God. I think if people opened their minds and realized that their default position has psychological values, they would see that the belief is unjustified and not rational. When you analyze the belief and its origin you see that it is wishful thinking. People don't want to die and they want to know. But people can get lazy and can also believe almost anything if it provides them with an answer.

I don't need to argue that scripture does not prove God, because that is a given, but I can argue that personal experience is not enough to prove God. People claim all sorts of things, but can never prove it. People say miracles are real and that prayer works, but where is the evidence. And again, saying that I prayed and the next day it happened is actually not enough. Because you can not empirically demonstrate that the prayer and what happened is connected. To this day there exist absolutely zero evidence for any miracle or that prayer work.

I am gonna show you a video where you can see some people taking their faith to far. I know not all are this dangerous, but I want to show this because as long as people advocate prayer as a solution, things like this will continue to happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfMsAgNdGno

I often get told that if I look at the trees and the sky that is proof of God. That tells me that the people claiming this does not understand what evidence is.

People end up using analogies to prove something wich is statistically improbable.

Same as saying "well something had to start it all". It becomes a way of NOT having to justify a belief and NOT looking for answers. Saying God did it is giving up on the intellectual quest for knowledge and understanding. You pretty much explain nothing when someone say God did it. This is the main reason why God is never included in scientific research, even by scientists who have faith themselves.

Faith simply is not sufficient to provide an answer.
 

pamarella

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I fail to see how faith equals proof of Gods existence. Faith is believing something without evidence. I just don't see what stories people tell is any evidence for a God. They are just stories. The problem here I think is that people take it is a given that there is a God. I think if people opened their minds and realized that their default position has psychological values, they would see that the belief is unjustified and not rational. When you analyze the belief and its origin you see that it is wishful thinking. People don't want to die and they want to know. But people can get lazy and can also believe almost anything if it provides them with an answer.

I don't need to argue that scripture does not prove God, because that is a given, but I can argue that personal experience is not enough to prove God. People claim all sorts of things, but can never prove it. People say miracles are real and that prayer works, but where is the evidence. And again, saying that I prayed and the next day it happened is actually not enough. Because you can not empirically demonstrate that the prayer and what happened is connected. To this day there exist absolutely zero evidence for any miracle or that prayer work.

I am gonna show you a video where you can see some people taking their faith to far. I know not all are this dangerous, but I want to show this because as long as people advocate prayer as a solution, things like this will continue to happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfMsAgNdGno

I often get told that if I look at the trees and the sky that is proof of God. That tells me that the people claiming this does not understand what evidence is.

People end up using analogies to prove something wich is statistically improbable.

Same as saying "well something had to start it all". It becomes a way of NOT having to justify a belief and NOT looking for answers. Saying God did it is giving up on the intellectual quest for knowledge and understanding. You pretty much explain nothing when someone say God did it. This is the main reason why God is never included in scientific research, even by scientists who have faith themselves.

Faith simply is not sufficient to provide an answer.

You keep bringing up the fact that there is no physical proof to prove that there is a God. We may not ever see a physical form of God and that may be how it supposed to be. And at the same time we are looking at "IT" right in the face. The Supreme being is over all of the Universe. There are un-answered questions that we still have about the Universe. If we can't answer those questions and if we can't understand the workings of the Universe, then how can we understand who God is.

For YOU there is zero evidence that miracle or prayers work. Don't say that to people who believe they have seen it in their own lives.
PERSONAL EXPEREINCE ISN'T ENOUGH????? SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!

Scienctist leave God out of their reasearch because there is an on going debate with Theologians about " WHO'S GOD" is behind the findings? IS IT THE JEWISH GOD? THE CHRISTIAN GOD? THE MUSLIM GOD? THE BUDDHIST GOD? That has always been the argument from many Theologians. Also Theologians believe that scientist should leave what we don't understand about our existence alone. They also believe that scientist shouldn't get involved in some of the natural challenges that exist in life such as diseases among other things. We all know that Stem Cell reasearch is a debate that is going on now.

ONCES AGAIN AS FAR AS THE VIDEO THAT YOU POSTED,
LEAVE THE RELIGEON PART OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD OUT. It really isn't about Religeon.

Because human beings act or believe a certain way, still doesn't prove that there isn't a God.
 

K.O.S.

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Calm down will you. I can say whatever I like, and as far as I am concerned, personal experience is NOT evidence for anything. If a personal experience counts as fact, then Michael Jackson would be locked up in jail for child molestation. Luckily the court system rely on empirical evidence for an accusation or a claim to be considered truth. Keep that in mind.

How do a person claiming to have experienced a miracle, God or whatever know they were not hallusinating? Ever think about that? This is why personal experience is never considered actual truth but simply an opinion. There is a vast difference between opinions and facts. Personal experience is an opinion. Just as my saying I do not think there is a God is an opinion. It is not a fact. I do not know if there is a God, but I choose not to believe because there is no evidence.

Ok, I got a few questions for you since you want to make bold claims I know you cannot back up. And remember, this is an Atheist thread, so if you are going to make extraordinary claims, you need to provide extraordinary evidence. This thread is for the people who do not believe, and anyone making claims about something they do not know, will get lots of questions back and a request to justify their position. That's the rule of the game here. Ok? And another thing, here we use the english language as it was meant to be used. Making words mean what you want them to mean will only distort any discussion and destroy this thread and its purpose.


Ok now to my questions for you.


"The Supreme being is all over the Universe"

How do you know this? What is a supreme being? How do you know that something is all over the Universe? Have you been to every corner of the Universe? Do you know what the Universe is? To make such a claim you just did, you have to answer ALL of these questions.

You say that we cannot know God as physical because he/she/it is not physical. You just said God does not exist. Existence is a physical definition. If you say that something without this definition exist, then you claim none existence until you can demonstrate that the word "existence" is not bound by physical data. Until then, the claim is bogus.

Quote:
"There are un-answered questions that we still have about the Universe. If we can't answer those questions and if we can't understand the workings of the Universe, then how can we understand who God is."

We have a very good understanding about how the Universe works, and our understanding continues to grow as scientists do more research and experiments. Who or what is God? What is it that we must understand or try to understand. Can you please provide an answer as to what the word God means? I simply can not answer this until I know what God is.

And again, I do not have to prove God does not exist. I do not claim to know God does not exist, I just have a very good reason not to believe. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, not the person who decides not to believe.

Quote:
"Scienctist leave God out of their reasearch because there is an on going debate with Theologians about " WHO'S GOD" is behind the findings? IS IT THE JEWISH GOD? THE CHRISTIAN GOD? THE MUSLIM GOD? THE BUDDHIST GOD? That has always been the argument from many Theologians. Also Theologians believe that scientist should leave what we don't understand about our existence alone. They also believe that scientist shouldn't get involved in some of the natural challenges that exist in life such as diseases among other things. We all know that Stem Cell reasearch is a debate that is going on now."

Why should science leave what we don't understand? That is the entire purpose of science, to explore what we don't know. We should leave disease alone??? Are you kidding me? So doctors should not treat the ill, is that what you are saying? Say that to the millions of people suffering from illness. Yeah listen to the theologians, the same people who say that we should not use condoms. Because of science millions of people can be treated for deadly and life harming diseases. Our life span has been extended by decades thanks to science. We have clean water and agriculture thanks to science. We have computers and Internet thanks to science. Remember that the next time you want to reject science. Science is the reason why most of us can lead the lives we live. Without science, there would be no O2 concerts.

And no I won't leave religion out of this. Because of blind faith religion exist. And it has a negative effect on the world, and until this changes I will never treat faith as a virtue. To me it is not only silly but dangerous, wich was why I showed that video. I can show hundreds of more videos to, and I will if this thread continues to be a debate thread. I want this thread to be for people like me, who do not want to pray or talk about God.

Just to make it clear, you do not have permission to be offended by this thread unless it resorts to personal attacks, wich it will not. If anyone feel offended by this thread or what I say, please do not read it. I do not talk in the prayer thread out of respect for the people who enjoy that thread.


Just wanted to make this clear, before someone starts a war here.
 
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Sifa_Dias

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I do not label myself anything, because I think labels are flawed. But I do not believe in religion (and by that I mean organised religion), I think organised religion is one of the most hurtful things ever to happen to humanity, not in the least because it was created by people that needed to dominate other groups of people, and to get money.

I think faith is great if it works for you, sometimes a little faith is what you need to cope with life. However I feel that Christianity has hijacked the worth faith, and gave it a religious connotation, faith for me has nothing to do with god or religion.

God is a a made up idea to define the things we don't understand, beginning at the beginning of humanity, with the roman gods leading the pack. God is mostly just a synonym for life and all it's complexities. So many people or wondering about the meaning of it all, maybe it has no meaning, maybe it just..happened.

I believe in the freedoms of people, you can believe in whatever you want, I feel, BUT when people start judging others in comparison with their own beliefs, when they think THEIRS is the only right idea, that others are lesser beings for not sharing the same believes, then I think you're the exact contrast of what you say you are, because in that case, you're the LEAST enlightened, LEAST educated and LEAST open-minded type of person.

All personal opinion of course :)
 

K.O.S.

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I do not label myself anything, because I think labels are flawed. But I do not believe in religion (and by that I mean organised religion), I think organised religion is one of the most hurtful things ever to happen to humanity, not in the least because it was created by people that needed to dominate other groups of people, and to get money.

I think faith is great if it works for you, sometimes a little faith is what you need to cope with life. However I feel that Christianity has hijacked the worth faith, and gave it a religious connotation, faith for me has nothing to do with god or religion.

God is a a made up idea to define the things we don't understand, beginning at the beginning of humanity, with the roman gods leading the pack. God is mostly just a synonym for life and all it's complexities. So many people or wondering about the meaning of it all, maybe it has no meaning, maybe it just..happened.

I believe in the freedoms of people, you can believe in whatever you want, I feel, BUT when people start judging others in comparison with their own beliefs, when they think THEIRS is the only right idea, that others are lesser beings for not sharing the same believes, then I think you're the exact contrast of what you say you are, because in that case, you're the LEAST enlightened, LEAST educated and LEAST open-minded type of person.

All personal opinion of course :)

I totally agree with this. Freedom of speech allows us to behold whatever belief we want. But I also think that making enquiry about certain beliefs are necessary, The reason for this is because belief influences society. I agree that people should not be labelled because of a belief, BUT I do not agree that a belief should not be challenged in a debate.

I will not go around challenging people's beliefs, unless they throw that belief in my face, or try to influence society based on that belief. If my life is to be affected by a belief, then I want to have a say in it. Other then that, I could not care less what people believe.

Ok, now I have said a lot, to much actually.

I will leave this thread for others to talk.
 

pamarella

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Calm down will you. I can say whatever I like, and as far as I am concerned, personal experience is NOT evidence for anything. If a personal experience counts as fact, then Michael Jackson would be locked up in jail for child molestation. Luckily the court system rely on empirical evidence for an accusation or a claim to be considered truth. Keep that in mind.

How do a person claiming to have experienced a miracle, God or whatever know they were not hallusinating? Ever think about that? This is why personal experience is never considered actual truth but simply an opinion. There is a vast difference between opinions and facts. Personal experience is an opinion. Just as my saying I do not think there is a God is an opinion. It is not a fact. I do not know if there is a God, but I choose not to believe because there is no evidence.

Ok, I got a few questions for you since you want to make bold claims I know you cannot back up. And remember, this is an Atheist thread, so if you are going to make extraordinary claims, you need to provide extraordinary evidence. This thread is for the people who do not believe, and anyone making claims about something they do not know, will get lots of questions back and a request to justify their position. That's the rule of the game here. Ok? And another thing, here we use the english language as it was meant to be used. Making words mean what you want them to mean will only distort any discussion and destroy this thread and its purpose.


Ok now to my questions for you.


"The Supreme being is all over the Universe"

How do you know this? What is a supreme being? How do you know that something is all over the Universe? Have you been to every corner of the Universe? Do you know what the Universe is? To make such a claim you just did, you have to answer ALL of these questions.

You say that we cannot know God as physical because he/she/it is not physical. You just said God does not exist. Existence is a physical definition. If you say that something without this definition exist, then you claim none existence until you can demonstrate that the word "existence" is not bound by physical data. Until then, the claim is bogus.

Quote:
"There are un-answered questions that we still have about the Universe. If we can't answer those questions and if we can't understand the workings of the Universe, then how can we understand who God is."

We have a very good understanding about how the Universe works, and our understanding continues to grow as scientists do more research and experiments. Who or what is God? What is it that we must understand or try to understand. Can you please provide an answer as to what the word God means? I simply can not answer this until I know what God is.

And again, I do not have to prove God does not exist. I do not claim to know God does not exist, I just have a very good reason not to believe. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, not the person who decides not to believe.

Quote:
"Scienctist leave God out of their reasearch because there is an on going debate with Theologians about " WHO'S GOD" is behind the findings? IS IT THE JEWISH GOD? THE CHRISTIAN GOD? THE MUSLIM GOD? THE BUDDHIST GOD? That has always been the argument from many Theologians. Also Theologians believe that scientist should leave what we don't understand about our existence alone. They also believe that scientist shouldn't get involved in some of the natural challenges that exist in life such as diseases among other things. We all know that Stem Cell reasearch is a debate that is going on now."

Why should science leave what we don't understand? That is the entire purpose of science, to explore what we don't know. We should leave disease alone??? Are you kidding me? So doctors should not treat the ill, is that what you are saying? Say that to the millions of people suffering from illness. Yeah listen to the theologians, the same people who say that we should not use condoms. Because of science millions of people can be treated for deadly and life harming diseases. Our life span has been extended by decades thanks to science. We have clean water and agriculture thanks to science. We have computers and Internet thanks to science. Remember that the next time you want to reject science. Science is the reason why most of us can lead the lives we live. Without science, there would be no O2 concerts.

And no I won't leave religion out of this. Because of blind faith religion exist. And it has a negative effect on the world, and until this changes I will never treat faith as a virtue. To me it is not only silly but dangerous, wich was why I showed that video. I can show hundreds of more videos to, and I will if this thread continues to be a debate thread. I want this thread to be for people like me, who do not want to pray or talk about God.

Just to make it clear, you do not have permission to be offended by this thread unless it resorts to personal attacks, wich it will not. If anyone feel offended by this thread or what I say, please do not read it. I do not talk in the prayer thread out of respect for the people who enjoy that thread.


Just wanted to make this clear, before someone starts a war here.
I'm not upset and of course you can say what you like. And as far as I am concerned, ones personal experience doesn't need validation from you or any non-believer. Ones REALITY is just that, their reality. Because you haven't experienced a miracle doesn't mean that one hasn't taken place. And I'm sure there are many variations of what a Miracle is.

As far as Michael Jackson goes, there are innocent people who are locked up in jail and there was no evidence. And there are guilty people walking free and there was plenty of evidence. You keep that in mind!

I don't understand how you can tie Michael Jackson into this anyway. Whatever went on, you, I or anyone else wasn't there.

Let me reverse your question................
Have you been to every corner of the Universe to prove that there isn't a Supreme Being? At one point the Universe had a STARTING POINT, it just didn't start by itself. Who or what is behind it? That's proof that God exist to those who believe. There is more proof to suggest there is a Supreme Being than there is that doesn't prove one exist. Science has not disprove that there is a God.

The fact that a heart is beating in your chest is proof that there is a Supreme being. The seasons come and go in a constant order. The Sun, the Earth, Moon, Plantets, Galaxies and all rotate in the exact order through out the Universe, that is the physical form of the Supreme Being to some of us who believe in a Supreme Being.

Yes there are Scientific explanation for them, but the answere still doesn't tell us what is it all for. Until you can prove that there is nothing behind these forces, then you as an Atheist can't say that the Supreme Being doens't exist.

What scientist knows about the Universe is small to what is really going on and they will tell you this? If we can't solve some of the minor issues that are taken place on Earth, how can we understand the orgins of the Supreme Being? That is what I meant by our understanding of the Supreme Being. Maybe there is a process that we all must go through until the Supreme Being reveals itself. I don't know and neither do you or those who don't believe in a Supreme being.

We who believe in a God don't have to prove that there is one to those who don't believe. Like I said, the evidence is more on our side then it is on the side of an atheist. Scientist is more on the side of God believers then it is on the side of an Atheist.

K.O.S, I think your argument is more about RELIGEON then about the existence of a Supreme Being.
 
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144000

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Calm down will you. I can say whatever I like, and as far as I am concerned, personal experience is NOT evidence for anything. If a personal experience counts as fact, then Michael Jackson would be locked up in jail for child molestation. Luckily the court system rely on empirical evidence for an accusation or a claim to be considered truth. Keep that in mind.

How do a person claiming to have experienced a miracle, God or whatever know they were not hallusinating? Ever think about that? This is why personal experience is never considered actual truth but simply an opinion. There is a vast difference between opinions and facts. Personal experience is an opinion. Just as my saying I do not think there is a God is an opinion. It is not a fact. I do not know if there is a God, but I choose not to believe because there is no evidence.

Ok, I got a few questions for you since you want to make bold claims I know you cannot back up. And remember, this is an Atheist thread, so if you are going to make extraordinary claims, you need to provide extraordinary evidence. This thread is for the people who do not believe, and anyone making claims about something they do not know, will get lots of questions back and a request to justify their position. That's the rule of the game here. Ok? And another thing, here we use the english language as it was meant to be used. Making words mean what you want them to mean will only distort any discussion and destroy this thread and its purpose.


Ok now to my questions for you.


"The Supreme being is all over the Universe"

How do you know this? What is a supreme being? How do you know that something is all over the Universe? Have you been to every corner of the Universe? Do you know what the Universe is? To make such a claim you just did, you have to answer ALL of these questions.

You say that we cannot know God as physical because he/she/it is not physical. You just said God does not exist. Existence is a physical definition. If you say that something without this definition exist, then you claim none existence until you can demonstrate that the word "existence" is not bound by physical data. Until then, the claim is bogus.

Quote:
"There are un-answered questions that we still have about the Universe. If we can't answer those questions and if we can't understand the workings of the Universe, then how can we understand who God is."

We have a very good understanding about how the Universe works, and our understanding continues to grow as scientists do more research and experiments. Who or what is God? What is it that we must understand or try to understand. Can you please provide an answer as to what the word God means? I simply can not answer this until I know what God is.

And again, I do not have to prove God does not exist. I do not claim to know God does not exist, I just have a very good reason not to believe. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, not the person who decides not to believe.

Quote:
"Scienctist leave God out of their reasearch because there is an on going debate with Theologians about " WHO'S GOD" is behind the findings? IS IT THE JEWISH GOD? THE CHRISTIAN GOD? THE MUSLIM GOD? THE BUDDHIST GOD? That has always been the argument from many Theologians. Also Theologians believe that scientist should leave what we don't understand about our existence alone. They also believe that scientist shouldn't get involved in some of the natural challenges that exist in life such as diseases among other things. We all know that Stem Cell reasearch is a debate that is going on now."

Why should science leave what we don't understand? That is the entire purpose of science, to explore what we don't know. We should leave disease alone??? Are you kidding me? So doctors should not treat the ill, is that what you are saying? Say that to the millions of people suffering from illness. Yeah listen to the theologians, the same people who say that we should not use condoms. Because of science millions of people can be treated for deadly and life harming diseases. Our life span has been extended by decades thanks to science. We have clean water and agriculture thanks to science. We have computers and Internet thanks to science. Remember that the next time you want to reject science. Science is the reason why most of us can lead the lives we live. Without science, there would be no O2 concerts.

And no I won't leave religion out of this. Because of blind faith religion exist. And it has a negative effect on the world, and until this changes I will never treat faith as a virtue. To me it is not only silly but dangerous, wich was why I showed that video. I can show hundreds of more videos to, and I will if this thread continues to be a debate thread. I want this thread to be for people like me, who do not want to pray or talk about God.

Just to make it clear, you do not have permission to be offended by this thread unless it resorts to personal attacks, wich it will not. If anyone feel offended by this thread or what I say, please do not read it. I do not talk in the prayer thread out of respect for the people who enjoy that thread.


Just wanted to make this clear, before someone starts a war here.

what exactly do u mean by the bolded? sounds to me like a non religious person is throwing judgement around, and certainly has not lived in Michael's skin. what personal experience has Michael had, that you are so certain of?

not to mention that there is no such thing as a woulda coulda situation. you're drawing a hypothesis on Michael. all there is is what actually happened. and that is, Michael had whatever personal experience he had, and..he's not in jail.

how could a person that believes in hard evidence be sure of something that never happened? you're doing what u accuse religious people of doing...drawing a conclusion from your own imagination.
 
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Marilyn Monroe

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a girl becoming a mother without male intervention,

says to be human thought up rather than a God to me..only humans obsess to the point with female virgins.
to this extreme where she had to be a virgin to have a son. she had to ''pure'' to have a son.
to be praised to be the mother of jesus and to be a virgin. this was always weird to me. my catholic side of my family would seem to praise this of mary. that she was pure and not a ''loose woman''..it seems so sexist. why would a god think this. the whole point of this world is to reproduce..why would a virgin woman be praised by a god? i know why they would be praised by some men.

Indeed. It's always good to be respectful but giving credit to god is a wasted opportunity to compliment and pay respect to very real living and breathing individuals.

mostly for me its when you see people respectful of god and wont say anything bad about a god..okay which makes sence..why would you insult your creator? but then these same people have no problem insulting , putting down, bullying other people with real true feelings.
i mean atleast respect life as well.

personally im open-minded and dont like labels. whatever is...is. although i wouldnt call myself a full christian if that makes any sence..i still enjoy christmas..because it seems anyone can celebrate it and its a happy season.
 

raingirl

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Hi I'm wouldn't count myself as an atheist since I believe in some sort of higher power such as God but I am a pagan because I haven't had a christening and I don't belong to any church.
 
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