Could the charges have been greater if the property was locked down immediately?

[daisydaisy]

So it looks increasingly likely that Murray will charged with Involuntary Manslaughter. It is not set in stone yet, and I am still hoping and praying the DA/LAPD will surprise everyone and charge him with Murder 2.

If the house and property were immediately closed off as a crime scene, then there could have been enough evidence for a Murder 2 charge. As we know anything and everything could have been removed and tampered with.

My question is, is it police incompetence that has hindered the charge from being Murder 2? If so, is there a basis for the LAPD to be sued by the estate for not sealing off the crime scene and thus missing the crucial time window for collecting evidence. Has Michael's chance of justice been let down, again by the LAPD?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

the property was locked down. and we dont even know what the charges are yet.murder 2 based on gross negligence is vertually the same as IM. its a fine line. it would make no difference the same evidence is used

 

[twinklEE]

As of now we don't even know for sure what they are going to charge him with, according to TMZ and the other ''copy&paste'' news outlets it's going to be involuntary manslaughter, I just hope they will drop additional charges as well.
As for your question this is the LAPD we are dealing with, even if they had locked down the property immediately, they wouldn't come up with higher charges. Authorities are known for their strong dislike toward Michael Jackson IMO.

 

[Ramona122003]

As of now we don't even know for sure what they are going to charge him with, according to TMZ and the other ''copy&paste'' news outlets it's going to be involuntary manslaughter, I just hope they will drop additional charges as well.
As for your question this is the LAPD we are dealing with, even if they had locked down the property immediately, they wouldn't come up with higher charges. Authorities are known for their strong dislike toward Michael Jackson IMO.

I don't think it is a strong dislike for Michael, but the stigma that exist with doctors here in the US.

For example, people love Elvis, but when he died his doctors was not charge with anything, not even negligence or given drugs to an addict. Now you may say it was because Elvis actually was an addict, but the doctors still gave him drugs, some actually knew that others were given him stuff, and they all knew that he didn't need all that medication. No illegal stuff was in his body and they could track down the doctors using his medical records. Even so, the doctors walked free.

Even if they charge Murray with murder 2, how would they convict a jury that Murray acted so badly that it justified the charge against him. Murder is a strong word and is something that people cannot put together with a doctor. In people's minds, if someone dies from drugs that a doctor gave them it is either was an accident or it is the patient's own fault.

 

[daisydaisy]

I know nothing has happened yet so it is too early to say things for sure. All the IM rumours have come from TMZ (mountain of salt).

This is on Wikipedia in reference to IM:

"In many jurisdictions such as California, malice may be found if gross negligence amounts to wilful or depraved indifference to human life. In such a case, the wrongdoer may be guilty of second degree murder."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

So, in California one can be charged with Second Degree Murder on the basis of negligence and presumably there is a big difference in sentence.

 

[daisydaisy]

I don't think it is a strong dislike for Michael, but the stigma that exist with doctors here in the US.

For example, people love Elvis, but when he died his doctors was not charge with anything, not even negligence or given drugs to an addict. Now you may say it was because Elvis actually was an addict, but the doctors still gave him drugs, some actually knew that others were given him stuff, and they all knew that he didn't need all that medication. No illegal stuff was in his body and they could track down the doctors using his medical records. Even so, the doctors walked free.

Even if they charge Murray with murder 2, how would they convict a jury that Murray acted so badly that it justified the charge against him. Murder is a strong word and is something that people cannot put together with a doctor. In people's minds, if someone dies from drugs that a doctor gave them it is either was an accident or it is the patient's own fault.

It is so sad what happened to Elvis, especially because facts did not come out for years later. That is why the truth has got to come out for Michael soon. In this day and age with the internet, there is a thirst for information, things are easier to find out and inconsistencies are more easily and quickly questioned.

I am not saying Michael was murdered, but there are huge inconsistencies in Murray's version of events. Which is why I believe if the house was immediately locked down then the LAPD could possibly have acquired more evidence as to what actually happened. I don't know though. At the very least they could be more sure that it was IM and nothing more.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

why I believe if the house was immediately locked down

it was locked down and only released to the family in the evening. it makes no difference to a charge of murder 2 based on gross negligence. the evidence is basically the same. u can only say it makes a difference if some murder weapon was in the house aal murder 1

 

[daisydaisy]

it was locked down and only released to the family in the evening. it makes no difference to a charge of murder 2 based on gross negligence. the evidence is basically the same. u can only say it makes a difference if some murder weapon was in the house aal murder 1

OK, thanks Elusive. Can I ask how do you know it was locked down? The only thing I heard was that Murray's car was seized but nothing about the house.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

the police locked the house down and collected the drug bottles etc it was released to the family. they then went back days later after murray told them where the diprivan was

 

[mjlover1988]

oops wrong thread

 

[daisydaisy]

the police locked the house down and collected the drug bottles etc it was released to the family. they then went back days later after murray told them where the diprivan was

I'm sorry to be a pain but I've just been looking and have found the search warrant to be dated 26th June 09. On page 3 of the link it says the "date and time of property taken into police custody" was 06.26.09 at 14.50.

http://www.radaronline.com/sites/default/files/MichaelJacksonSearchWarrant.pdf

 

[elusive moonwalker]

yeah it gives the date as 26th june for when the form was filed out. i dont know if the search took place that day or on the 25th i cant remember or if theres other forms from the 25th. posters like soundmind will beable to tell u. but from what posters such as sound have said the places was locked down on the 25th

btw notice the penal code written on the warrant 187 which is murder

 

[daisydaisy]

Interesting about 187.

The warrant states the search took place on June 26th in the afternoon and this is when the meds were seized. They may well have been on 25th as well but I can't find any other report about a police search or presence in the property, only that Murray's BMW was seized. Also, why would they collect meds on 26th if they had already been the day before?

it was locked down and only released to the family in the evening. it makes no difference to a charge of murder 2 based on gross negligence. the evidence is basically the same. u can only say it makes a difference if some murder weapon was in the house aal murder 1

I have not read anywhere that the equipment used to administer propofol or the propofol used on the day was ever recovered by the police. Murray later on told them about his bag that was in the closet or somewhere, presumably this contained a stock of propofol, but what happened to the stuff he administered on the 25th?

This is key evidence IMO. The police need to know how Murray administered it, because so far what he has stated to the police is not normally enough to cause anaesthesia for 5 -10 minutes. Fact.

Did Murray administer by continous IV or bolus injections? Where was the evidence for this? If it was an emergency I can't see any reason for Murray to hide all this, unless panic, but it looks dodgy that it was all removed from the scene.

The administration equipment and the propofol bottle could hold vital clues, like was the equipment set up correctly? was the dosage calculated correctly? etc etc etc

If the police had this then maybe they could have tried to prove Murder 2 charge, on the way Murray set up the stuff. Maybe this could have shown wilful disregard for human life.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Also, why would they collect meds on 26th if they had already been the day before?

well some of the stuff they collected on the 26th had nothing to do with the case. they took benoquin that mj used for his vit and i think glucoma drugs were mentioned along with other things that werent directly connected. also murray hid the diprivan/his medical bag.so maybe they went back looking for xtra stuff

This is key evidence IMO. The police need to know how Murray administered it, because so far what he has stated to the police is not normally enough to cause anaesthesia for 5 -10 minutes. Fact.

i think murray told them how he administered it during his interview. and the police will know how much was in mjs system and over what time span it was given anyway.

cant comment on the other stuff cause i didnt follow the first stages of everything that much interms of what or wasnt taken from the house re the IV poles and what not. soundmind and others are up on this

 

[Autumn II]

the property was locked down. and we dont even know what the charges are yet.murder 2 based on gross negligence is vertually the same as IM. its a fine line. it would make no difference the same evidence is used

I saw on the continuous coverage on CNN that the property was NOT locked down. Not at key times, and not for long enough. That was obvious from the length of time before the yellow "caution tape" went up, and then was taken down so quickly. That's the indicator of the "openness" of the house, or not. Many of us SAW that and took note. It was a critical error.

Actually, the coverage was on all major news networks, sometimes with a split-screen and view of the house and property. I remember VERY clearly being distraught and saying "Where IS it? Where is the caution tape!" This is FACT. It also makes any evidence collected murky, and subject to challenge. I'm sure this is the reason Murray did not sign the death-certificate, to muddy the water about the declaration of a crime-scene at the property.

I'm not even going to argue this point. I SAW, with my own eyes, when the house was and was not locked down. The yellow tape is the indicator of that, as a barrier that no one but authorities can cross. And I remember thinking at that time, that it could invalidate evidence. As I'm sure it will.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

at the end of the day mjs body is the crime scene so its not even an issue.

 

[Beachlover]

I saw on the continuous coverage on CNN that the property was NOT locked down. Not at key times, and not for long enough. That was obvious from the length of time before the yellow "caution tape" went up, and then was taken down so quickly. That's the indica]tor of the "openness" of the house, or not. Many of us SAW that and took note. It was a critical error.

Actually, the coverage was on all major news networks, sometimes with a split-screen and view of the house and property. I remember VERY clearly being distraught and saying "Where IS it? Where is the caution tape!" This is FACT. It also makes any evidence collected murky, and subject to challenge. I'm sure this is the reason Murray did not sign the death-certificate, to muddy the water about the declaration of a crime-scene at the property.

I'm not even going to argue this point. I SAW, with my own eyes, when the house was and was not locked down. The yellow tape is the indicator of that, as a barrier that no one but authorities can cross. And I remember thinking at that time, that it could invalidate evidence. As I'm sure it will.

This might be a first but I agree with Vic :wub:

When I was watching this from my house (I was home) I immediately scoured the news and I was reading and watching the whole time and it appeared that it was being labeled as a drug overdose and treated as such. I didn't think the house was treated as a crime scene and was actually shocked when I heard family was there removing items so quickly.

Whenever we talked about this factor I always maintained that it was KEY to Murrays defense. Now I even saw on that "E" program the other day that an ambu bag was found at the scene and I always said it was a KEY element in saving his life because MORE than CPR, the ambu bag was needed to save his life. Remember, Propofol causes respiratory depression. They also said on the program that it is not known whether it was the EMT's or Murrays and he could say it was his. That raised a HUGE RED FLAG in my face. Clearly the police should have documented these things the very first day but that did not happen and people in the house had access.

In Elvis Presleys case, they cleaned the house and bathroom and removed all drugs from the scene before police got their if I remember correctly.

Now, for those of you who think nothing happened to Elvis Doctor, thats not true either.[
ELVIS PRESLEY suffered eye disease glaucoma and was almost blind when he died, according to the late King of Rock's personal physician.
Dr. George Nichopoulos earned notoriety when, three years after Presley's 1977 death, he was indicted on 14 counts of over-supplying drugs to Presley and other patients, including rocker Jerry Lee Lewis.
He was acquitted on all counts, but the accusations earned him the nickname The Man Who Killed Elvis, among the star's angry fans.
Thirty years on, Nichopoulos is hitting back in a new tell-all book, in which he claims Presley was a physical wreck at the time of his death and suffered from numerous ailments that could have killed him.
The doctor alleges Presley suffered from glaucoma, arthritis, a fatty liver, an enlarged heart and a colon swollen to twice its normal size. He also allegedly suffered from gout, migraines and constipation.
The singer died at his Graceland home in Memphis, Tennessee, after suffering a cardiac arrhythmia, aged 42.[/I]

 

[Beachlover]

at the end of the day mjs body is the crime scene so its not even an issue.

Cause of death is not an issue.

It is Murrays defense which is the issue here.

 

[Autumn II]

This might be a first but I agree with Vic :wub:

Yup. Probably a first. I saw what I SAW, and this is not really arguable. I know enough about the law to know this was a massive, massive mistake.

When I was watching this from my house (I was home) I immediately scoured the news and I was reading and watching the whole time and it appeared that it was being labeled as a drug overdose and treated as such. I didn't think the house was treated as a crime scene and was actually shocked when I heard family was there removing items so quickly.

I was totally shocked, as well. As far as "Michael's body being the crime scene?" NO. Absolutely not the only evidence, although that may be all the LAPD have now. What was the condition of his ROOM? Were there signs of a struggle? We cannot know, now. What was in the food in the kitchen? Was there anything in there that should not have been? We do not KNOW, now. Ephedra was found in Michael's system. What we do not know is how it got there. Ephedra causes both insomnia and weight loss. It also could have been a "rescue drug," although epinephren would be more likely? Was it in any foods or juices in the kitchen? We'll never know, now. Were the follower fans letters to Michael on the night-stand? Were they ever delivered to him by Security, who took them from him in the car? If not, why not? Now, we'll never know. And so much more.

Whenever we talked about this factor I always maintained that it was KEY to Murrays defense. Now I even saw on that "E" program the other day that an ambu bag was found at the scene and I always said it was a KEY element in saving his life because MORE than CPR, the ambu bag was needed to save his life. Remember, Propofol causes respiratory depression. They also said on the program that it is not known whether it was the EMT's or Murrays and he could say it was his. That raised a HUGE RED FLAG in my face. Clearly the police should have documented these things the very first day but that did not happen and people in the house had access.

I'm sure the crime-scene issue is the primary reason why Murray was not the one to declare time-of-death. The ambu bag is, indeed, a key issue. Who left it there? We cannot know, now. The failure to designate a crime-scene immediately was a major mistake, and I KNEW that at the time. (An idiot, I am NOT. .. as I guess you guys might know by now?)

Not gonna get into the Elvis stuff here, but yeah, there are some parallels.

With all that said, it doesn't mean the LAPD have no case. What they do have is eye-witness testimony. Dozens and dozens of people could testify to what they saw and heard. Everyone from household staff, to people Michael spoke to in the last days, to Security, to the EMTs, to the dancers and technicians on TII. All these will weave together to tell a story very different from the one promoted by Murray's attorneys and by media. It is NOT over.

 

[kasume]

According to one of Murray's lawyers, he doesn't even know what charges will be filed.....

And I don't think tmz is exactly sure themselves, since they had to ask him? Don't they already know? they reported it......

But for me, IM is almost unbelievable....this was murder to the first degree, us fans can feel the truth shouting in our hearts, minds, and everywhere else.

all i know is, (read my red signature), there's nothing that can't be done if we raise our voice as one. It was the message on the big screen at Michael's memorial. I believe there was a reason for that specific message, shown across national television. Michael knew we would face more difficulties ahead, so he reminded us one last time at his memorial, that we fans around the world must stand united and raise our voice as one if we want justice to be done.

 

[Sophielo]

T-Mez commented on it and said that second degree murder is very hard to prove, IM is easier to prove, and he'd rather have Murray on IM than walk away on a 2nd degree murder charge. I know how desperatly we all want it but in the end of the day you have to convince 12 people that Murray was guilty of 2nd degree murder, which is hard.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

But for me, IM is almost unbelievable....this was murder to the first degree, us fans can feel the truth shouting in our hearts, minds, and everywhere else.

can u prove it though? thats what it comes down to. and like mez said id rather they get him on IM with added on charges that push the sentence up than see him walk on a murder charge

 

[PrincessMichaela]

I also think the IM rumors are true because it was reported that on Thursday the LAPD briefed the family on the charges and what was about to go down, as a courtesy? And then there were reports that the family (at least some members) were upset and wanted a heftier charge. So... =/

 

[Autumn II]

can u prove it though? thats what it comes down to. and like mez said id rather they get him on IM with added on charges that push the sentence up than see him walk on a murder charge

It's not for anyone here, on a message board, to "prove." We do not know WHO has been interviewed by the LAPD, or what they saw and heard, and what their depositions may have been, and what they could testify to in court. The "proof" does not lie only in the physical evidence (the crime-scene that really never was), but in the statements of many, many people.

Unlike most of us, Michael had people around him, ALWAYS. There was the staff in the house, conversations no-doubt overheard; there were his drivers and security staff, things Michael might have said to crew and dancers for TII, and even, sadly, what the children witnessed. There are the glaring inconsistencies in the time-line Murray gave, and the phone-calls he made when he said he was doing "other things."

It is NOT over.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

It's not for anyone here, on a message board, to "prove."

why being so picky. u know im talking about what can be proved in a court of law and not on a message board.thats pretty obvious. if tomorrow they come out with murder 1 or 2 and obviously feel they can prove it hence the charge then great. but no one would want a higher charge if theres not a realistic chance of conviction. thats common sense just like mez said. would some want murray to walk on a murder charge rather than be convicted on a stacked IM charge where the sentence is the same as murder 2?

 

[Beachlover]

I also think the IM rumors are true because it was reported that on Thursday the LAPD briefed the family on the charges and what was about to go down, as a courtesy? And then there were reports that the family (at least some members) were upset and wanted a heftier charge. So... =/

Which I was happy to hear and leads me to believe they ARE keeping the family in the loop. At least the family that they report to.

I am thinking the family is very divided here and certain members are not told what is happening because of obvious leaked press issues.

The fact is, Propofol is a drug and he did die of an overdose. Hard as that fact is to grasp around my head, it is in fact, a drug overdose. The part that is important is that he did not do this to himself and relied on another individual to do this who was a professional. All the stated reasons for this drug point to a man who just wanted to be able to sleep.

The fact that Michael may or may not have lost weight or was under pressure should not be as important as having someone administer incorrectly, but this will all come into play now because the evidence was not secured and there is now a questionable doubt about that. The prosecution can't prove what was or wasn't there if they don't have PROOF.

 

[Autumn II]

why being so picky. u know im talking about what can be proved in a court of law and not on a message board.thats pretty obvious. if tomorrow they come out with murder 1 or 2 and obviously feel they can prove it hence the charge then great. but no one would want a higher charge if theres not a realistic chance of conviction. thats common sense just like mez said. would some want murray to walk on a murder charge rather than be convicted on a stacked IM charge where the sentence is the same as murder 2?

I am being "picky" because this is so INCREDIBLY important. Don't think for ONE minute that law enforcement does not read here, or Murray's legal and PR teams, and media. What fans SAY is important. If fans are of the opinion that the case is weak, that helps prevent justice for Michael. Our words MATTER. This is a public board.

I think there are many, MANY people who can testify and present a strong case for Murder 2.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

but this will all come into play now because the evidence was not secured and there is now a questionable doubt about that. The prosecution can't prove what was or wasn't there if they don't have PROOF.

i dont get what u are saying. murray admitted he gave mj the dirpivan gave the cops all the details. he cops found the diprivan and traced it back to murray to comfirmed he bought/owned it via reciepts and his bag (murray told them where to find it) its was confirmed mj died cause of diprivan intoxication. so what evidence wasnt secured. unless murray suddenly turns round as says ai wasnt there i didnt give it to him it wasnt me. then there is no issue. the issue it whether his own admitted actions were negligent enough to constitue MS (going on what we know at the min)

 

[elusive moonwalker]

If fans are of the opinion that the case is weak, t

no one has said that. and we havnt seen the charges or evidence to discuss what is or isnt weak. we are discussing possibilities that is pretty obvious.. i guess u are angry with mez then. fine if u want him to be charged with murder 1 just to appease conspiracy theories even IF it means he walks. if thats more important than getting a conviction then that says alot

I think there are many, MANY people who can testify and present a strong case for Murder 2.

if there is great and if they have a strong case for murder then great. but as mez said u dont want them charging a higher charge IF theres not a realsitic chance of success. at this stage only the D.A knows whats realsitic becasue he has the evidence. anyone would prefer a strong IM with stacked charges conviction case to a weak murder 1-2 aquital.
there already an IU section on this board we dont need another. ill be gald tomorrow when we know what we are facing so we can stop with all this BS and deal with the facts whatever they maybe

 

[Autumn II]

The fact that Michael may or may not have lost weight or was under pressure should not be as important as having someone administer incorrectly, but this will all come into play now because the evidence was not secured and there is now a questionable doubt about that. The prosecution can't prove what was or wasn't there if they don't have PROOF.

Witness statements are also PROOF. I'm sure there were many, many witnesses to what went on in the household, and what kind of shape Michael was or was not in. It is NOT over.