Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

[bouee]

Have their been similar deaths by Propofol to work out a time frame from when to much was given to when someone died?

If you go back and read this thread (starting about pages 45) you will see that Soundmind worked a lot on the tox results :

- He / She thinks that death happened very quickly after the propofol injection. The reason is the difference of propofol found in Micheal's blood and urine. (very high in blood and very low in urine). He / She didn't get much contradiction on that, everybody seems to agree on this point. It's difficult to give a precise time frame, he/she said minutes (around 10 / mn as a maximum, probably less).

Now there's the timeline descrepencies : Murray says he gave the propofol at 10h40 (according to the LAPD) and according to his lawyer, found MJ not breathing at around 12 (11 acording to LAPD). The problem is 1h20 mn is not possible given the fact that Michael did not receive propofol for that much time. Murray is lying (again and among other things) about the timeline, the thing is we don't really know what is true and what is not about this time line.

So one of the important things is to narrow down to the actual time of death. It most likely happened between 11am and 12 or 12 something pm. If you look up the last pages of this thread, you will see that it has been discussed, but it's very difficult, if not impossible to be that precise.

In the coroner's report there is no estimated TOD. The coroner's report is incomplete (hair tox results are not there, but they did take hair samples, so they have not disclosed this particular part of the report) so either they have not disclosed their conclusions about actual TOD, or they can't get a precise time of death.

If you think you can read it (there are a lot of graphic details, it can be difficult for some of us), I suggest you take the time to read the thread starting about page 40/45, posters here have done an amazing job at analysing the coroner's report. It's sometimes difficult to follow for non medical experts though, so don't hesitate to ask questions.

I hope I summed it up well, and Soundmind, if I misunderstood anything, please correct me !

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

^^Thanx for all that info. It helped me alot.

Sorry Murray might have given the Propofol to MJ, and then left to take care of personal business like phone calls, and then came back an hour later to find MJ already dead.

 

[Sunflowers]

If you go back and read this thread (starting about pages 45) you will see that Soundmind worked a lot on the tox results :

- He / She thinks that death happened very quickly after the propofol injection. The reason is the difference of propofol found in Micheal's blood and urine. (very high in blood and very low in urine). He / She didn't get much contradiction on that, everybody seems to agree on this point. It's difficult to give a precise time frame, he/she said minutes (around 10 / mn as a maximum, probably less).

Now there's the timeline descrepencies : Murray says he gave the propofol at 10h40 (according to the LAPD) and according to his lawyer, found MJ not breathing at around 12 (11 acording to LAPD). The problem is 1h20 mn is not possible given the fact that Michael did not receive propofol for that much time. Murray is lying (again and among other things) about the timeline, the thing is we don't really know what is true and what is not about this time line.

So one of the important things is to narrow down to the actual time of death. It most likely happened between 11am and 12 or 12 something pm. If you look up the last pages of this thread, you will see that it has been discussed, but it's very difficult, if not impossible to be that precise.

In the coroner's report there is no estimated TOD. The coroner's report is incomplete (hair tox results are not there, but they did take hair samples, so they have not disclosed this particular part of the report) so either they have not disclosed their conclusions about actual TOD, or they can't get a precise time of death.

If you think you can read it (there are a lot of graphic details, it can be difficult for some of us), I suggest you take the time to read the thread starting about page 40/45, posters here have done an amazing job at analysing the coroner's report. It's sometimes difficult to follow for non medical experts though, so don't hesitate to ask questions.

I hope I summed it up well, and Soundmind, if I misunderstood anything, please correct me !

Could it be that Murray says different things on the timeline on purpose. Maybe because he knew that reasonable doubt could then be created? As there was probably no way to get an exact TOD.
I don't know much about the american system, but I have understood that if there is reasonable doubt, that he will walk freely.

 

[bouee]

^^Thanx for all that info. It helped me alot.

Sorry Murray might have given the Propofol to MJ, and then left to take care of personal business like phone calls, and then came back an hour later to find MJ already dead.

you're welcome . Yes it can't be ruled out with the info we have.

And I have a problem with the Murray gave propofol at around 12 theory : LAPD reports on search warrants says that Murray was on the phone from 11h18 to 12h05, for approximatly 47 mn. Between 11h18 and 12h05 there are 47mn, meaning he was on the phone non stop or almost non stop. Murray did not tell the LAPD about these phone calls, they found out by themselves.

Forensic report page 49 they found propofol lidocane and flumenzil in the syringe and IV set up, and nothing else. Does it mean that he set up the IV just for propofol ?

Then when did he do that ??? before 11h18 ? It's possible.

Then if Micheal received propofol for 15mn or less, it means that Murray gave it around 11h45 or later. While he was on the phone ?

 

[bouee]

Could it be that Murray says different things on the timeline on purpose. Maybe because he knew that reasonable doubt could then be created? As there was probably no way to get an exact TOD.
I don't know much about the american system, but I have understood that if there is reasonable doubt, that he will walk freely.

yes, I think it's possible. I think (and asked a few questions about that earlier on this thread, they have not been answered yet) he might have done things to change or make it difficult for the coroner to estimate the TOD.

Edit : walk freely I don't think so : cause of death is acute propofol intoxication, with benzo diazepine effects. The propofol dose was not lethal. What was lethal according to this report (anaesthesist) is the lack of proper care while administering propofol (monitoring and ressuciation), and the fact that it was mixed with lozarepam, which has accentuated the side effects of propofol (respiratory depression). Murray admitted to giving both drugs. Based on that, I don't understand how he can walk freely.

IMO, he was in "damage control" mode : cover up to avoid making it worse for him. He didnot mention propofol to the paramedics and to the hospital, he lied about the time line, and as Soundmind has been able to show, he lied about what he gave on the days prior to Michael's death.

 

[Sunflowers]

you're welcome . Yes it can't be ruled out with the info we have.

And I have a problem with the Murray gave propofol at around 12 theory : LAPD reports on search warrants says that Murray was on the phone from 11h18 to 12h05, for approximatly 47 mn. Between 11h18 and 12h05 there are 47mn, meaning he was on the phone non stop or almost non stop. Murray did not tell the LAPD about these phone calls, they found out by themselves.

Forensic report page 49 they found propofol lidocane and flumenzil in the syringe and IV set up, and nothing else. Does it mean that he set up the IV just for propofol ?

Then when did he do that ??? before 11h18 ? It's possible.

Then if Micheal received propofol for 15mn or less, it means that Murray gave it around 11h45 or later. While he was on the phone ?

Thanks for all this info. For some weird reason I don't think the real truth is ever gonna come out.

Reading all this, to me it seems that Murray turned the propofol drip on and left the room when Michael was under. The drip must have been to open or something, I don't know how thta works. Which ment Michael was getting to much propofol in his blood. Maybe Murray was in a hurry to get on the phone, he left the room for all those phonecalls. And when he got back Michael was already dead. I believe Murray knew that and took time to cover his mistakes.
That's what I think happened. I hope Murray comes clean and tells the truth. Is it known if Murray called AEG in that timespan??

 

[bouee]

. Is it known if Murray called AEG in that timespan??

My understanding is that there was no drip, it was a syringe, injected into a tube that was in MJ's leg. So one shot and he left the room, IMO.

Whom Murray called is not on the search warrants. It was reported in the media that he called several people, I don't remember who, it had nothing to do with AEG.

 

[Sunflowers]

My understanding is that there was no drip, it was a syringe, injected into a tube that was in MJ's leg. So one shot and he left the room, IMO.

I didn't know that. That's the weirdest thing I've ever heard with someone using Propofol. BEcause the report says there was enough Propofol in Michael's blood for a heavy operation. That means if it was injected, Murray injected a whole lot of propofol.

As a doctor he should have known that would go wrong. To the best of my knowledge I'd call that murder.

But then again, I'm no expert. But it stinks.

 

[bouee]

I have a question about the beads : I was checking some facts on the coroner's report to answer a post, and I asked myself where were the beads found exactly : was it on the bed, or on the floor near the bed ??

See page 3, scene description " Near the left foot of the bed, there was a string of beads". Does it make it clear it was ON the bed ??? In the same paragraph, the coroner's detective talks about the bottle of urine that was found "near the the foot of the bed, atop a chair". ????

read the whole description , English is not my first language, I could be misunderstanding something here.

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

I have a question about the beads : I was checking some facts on the coroner's report to answer a post, and I asked myself where were the beads found exactly : was it on the bed, or on the floor near the bed ??

See page 3, scene description " Near the left foot of the bed, there was a string of beads". Does it make it clear it was ON the bed ??? In the same paragraph, the coroner's detective talks about the bottle of urine that was found "near the the foot of the bed, atop a chair". ????

read the whole description , English is not my first language, I could be misunderstanding something here.

 

[bouee]

I didn't know that. That's the weirdest thing I've ever heard with someone using Propofol. BEcause the report says there was enough Propofol in Michael's blood for a heavy operation. That means if it was injected, Murray injected a whole lot of propofol.

As a doctor he should have known that would go wrong. To the best of my knowledge I'd call that murder.

But then again, I'm no expert. But it stinks.

About the way it was done (syringe), my understanding from previous posts in this thread is that it's not unusual if it's the first injection. After this injection Murray would have had to use a drip AND a pump to maintain the propofol level. It's what I gathered reading from here, I'm not a medical expert.

The level of propofol was probably too high, if we are talking from Murray's point of view, he could say that he made a mistake with the dose.

The only difference in the standard of care between sedation and general anaesthesia, according to the coroner's report, is that in case of general anaesthesia he should have intubated him and used a mechanical ventilator.

Still, the standard of care for propofol, even if he intended sedation and not general anaesthesia, are not met. He still shouldn't have mixed it with lozarepam. So even if he says he made a mistake with the dose, it won't work for him, IMO. To make it worse, he had some of the monitoring equipment, that was found later, in his bag, in a closet, in a seperate room. The LAPD didn't see it on their first visit, they found it after Murray told them where it was. So either he took the time to put it back in his bag in that closet (then when ????), or he didn't even use it.

 

[Popescu]

I have a question about the beads : I was checking some facts on the coroner's report to answer a post, and I asked myself where were the beads found exactly : was it on the bed, or on the floor near the bed ??

See page 3, scene description " Near the left foot of the bed, there was a string of beads". Does it make it clear it was ON the bed ??? In the same paragraph, the coroner's detective talks about the bottle of urine that was found "near the the foot of the bed, atop a chair". ????

read the whole description , English is not my first language, I could be misunderstanding something here.

Hi bouee, the descripion matches the pic, go here http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85635&page=15. I keep saving it on my computer, an then erasing it shortly after.

Only thing, pic looks flopped to me(don't know the word, this is the word used in video editing, it means reversed angles horizontally), all the items listed in the report are on the right side and viceversa. Beads near the toohpaste, the blue plastic pad, all this were on the bed in the report, and in the picture. On the left side. Left side is also consistent with the items that were on the tables (orange juice, etc.). We don't see the right side in the picture.

 

[bouee]

thank you very much Popescu and DI, yes it seems consistent to me... So if we are back on topic, MJ died on his bed before he was put on the floor.
I assume the paramedics would have put him on the floor for CPR, if Murray didn't do it..

 

[daisy]

true , but Ohood does have a valid point , they said perimortem for a reason , if it was caused prior to his death , they would have said antemortem , MJ would have felt these beads were there and he would have removed them especially if we are to believe he was naked .

if the abrasions were created after his death they would have said it was postmortem abrasions , so you are right .


they said perimortem , because they had forensic evidence they were not created before death , nor after death , but at the time of death .

I think that if prior to being given propofol these beads were there and causing abrasions,
then if Michael was conscious, he should have removed them, do you agree?

Unless Michael changed his position just in the very direct moment of being given propofol.

If it has been established in this thread that Michael died minuted after that,
then if he changed this position, these abrasions would have to be caused VERY quickly,
as they are not POSTmortem beads.

 

[bouee]

I think that if prior to being given propofol these beads were there and causing abrasions,
then if Michael was conscious, he should have removed them, do you agree?

Unless Michael changed his position just in the very direct moment of being given propofol.

If it has been established in this thread that Michael died minuted after that,
then if he changed this position, these abrasions would have to be caused VERY quickly,
as they are not POSTmortem beads.

wow.... it makes sense to me. That would mean Michael was not conscious or sound asleep when he was given the propofol. If he was just asleep, given the size of the beads, I guess he would have woken up and moved ?

 

[Popescu]

I think that if prior to being given propofol these beads were there and causing abrasions,
then if Michael was conscious, he should have removed them, do you agree?

Unless Michael changed his position just in the very direct moment of being given propofol.

If it has been established in this thread that Michael died minuted after that,
then if he changed this position, these abrasions would have to be caused VERY quickly,
as they are not POSTmortem beads.

I said this earlier in the thread, based on the report, there most likely WAS an altered state of consciousness. These drugs are designed to make you, um, not care, to make you numb. So, even if he was conscious, he did not care or even feel them? There was a large amount of medication that was given prior to Propofol.

 

[daisy]

wow.... it makes sense to me. That would mean Michael was not conscious or sound asleep when he was given the propofol. If he was just asleep, given the size of the beads, I guess he would have woken up and moved ?

that's what I'm saying - why would he lay on the beads?

the injection was placed in the leg? something about the leg being moved by Murray?
But he didn't know or couldn't see the beads?
Michael could have moved his leg so that it doesn't lay on the beads or tell Murray to move the equipment so that he felt comfortable -
don't we want to feel comfortable before falling asleep, especially, when we COULD NOT sleep for hours?

 

[daisy]

I said this earlier in the thread, based on the report, there most likely WAS an altered state of consciousness. These drugs are designed to make you, um, not care, to make you numb. So, even if he was conscious, he did not care or even feel them? There was a large amount of medication that was given prior to Propofol.

In one of the first posts here I was questioning whether Michael was conscious when "asked" for propofol.
I am wondering how much conscious he needed to be for "begging" for propofol but NOT feeling beads that made small wounds.

 

[bouee]

Yes, what Popescu wrote makes sense also. I don't have enough medical knowledge to know.
If he was so numb that he didn't feel the beads, or didn't care , then would he have been able to talk and ask for propofol ?

 

[ginvid]

Why would MJ's back be all the way down the bed where the beads are if he was just given a large dose of propofol to go to sleep. Surely he wouldn't be sleeping with his legs hanging off of the bed? That wouldn't even be comfortable.

The incontinence pad is whre it should be if a person is laying down to go to sleep. But why would his back end up all the way down at the edge of the bed?

 

[Soundmind]

My understanding is that there was no drip, it was a syringe, injected into a tube that was in MJ's leg. So one shot and he left the room, IMO.

Whom Murray called is not on the search warrants. It was reported in the media that he called several people, I don't remember who, it had nothing to do with AEG.

yeah , they tested an IV system found in his bag , and it does indicate he gave him a bolus injection , because propofol was not detected in the long tube attached to the bag , only in the IV and the short tube attached to a Y connector .

and yes from the urine , propofol was given for a short period of time less than 15 minutes , and from the high blood concentration MJ died while he was hooked to propofol , the survival time was short .

I do agree with Beachlover , Murray probably repositioned MJ while he was trying to perform CPR on the bed , after all you have to understand I don't believe Murray intentionally killed MJ, so he probably tried to 'help' him or should I say save his own ass , and when he realised they were more important things to do like clean the scene he did not hesitate to leave him .

the forensic scientist will explain how they determined it was not antemortem nor postmortem . But we can be sure the amounts of propofol was enough for minutes only .

 

[gtbt]

Yes, what Popescu wrote makes sense also. I don't have enough medical knowledge to know.
If he was so numb that he didn't feel the beads, or didn't care , then would he have been able to talk and ask for propofol ?

I could imagine that. It's like when you wake up after surgery for instance, it's so hard, you hardly know what's going on around any you want to drink, you ask for it even though you know you're not allowed to. And then the nurse would never give it to you even if you beg.
That is when Murray, even if this was the case that Michael asked for it, should have not given it to him and for sure not such a big dose.

 

[Popescu]

In one of the first posts here I was questioning whether Michael was conscious when "asked" for propofol.
I am wondering how much conscious he needed to be for "begging" for propofol but NOT feeling beads that made small wounds.

They were not wounds sweetie, they only were abrasions. Some of you in the IU know that I used to take sleeping pills, I honesly did not care if I fell asleep on my pack of cigs or my lighter. Oh, and I used to take stilnox (the date rape drug I think, at one point it stopped working, and I took more, and still not sleep. I used to call people in the middle of the night, and have long, embarassing convos that I wouldn't remember the next day. Ugh.)

 

[ginvid]

I understand what you mean. You say that Murray gave MJ the huge dose of propofol. Shortly after he saw he was not breathing, pulled him down the bed (at which point he was on top of the beads) to do CPR. And soon after MJ died while being on top of the beads at the bottom of the bed.

 

[daisy]

I could imagine that. It's like when you wake up after surgery for instance, it's so hard, you hardly know what's going on around any you want to drink, you ask for it even though you know you're not allowed to. And then the nurse would never give it to you even if you beg.
That is when Murray, even if this was the case that Michael asked for it, should have not given it to him and for sure not such a big dose.

Exactly. Even if Michael was so influenced that he didn't feel the beads, BUT was able to ask for propofol, then the dosage was ABSOLUTELY and EVEN MORE inappropriate.

They were not wounds sweetie, they only were abrasions. Some of you in the IU know that I used to take sleeping pills, I honesly did not care if I fell asleep on my pack of cigs or my lighter. Oh, and I used to take stilnox (the date rape drug I think, at one point it stopped working, and I took more, and still not sleep. I used to call people in the middle of the night, and have long, embarassing convos that I wouldn't remember the next day. Ugh.)

OK that's coming back to the dose again.

 

[Popescu]

I understand what you mean. You say that Murray gave MJ the huge dose of propofol. Shortly after he saw he was not breathing, pulled him down the bed (at which point he was on top of the beads) to do CPR. And soon after MJ died while being on top of the beads at the bottom of the bed.

See, this is where we have to agree to disagree. I believe Murray found Michael when he was already gone. Not a faint pulse, nothing. Everything else he did was to cover up what it happened.

The beads could of been moved in the commotion that followed, when the paramedics arrived to the scene.

 

[Soundmind]

Yes, what Popescu wrote makes sense also. I don't have enough medical knowledge to know.
If he was so numb that he didn't feel the beads, or didn't care , then would he have been able to talk and ask for propofol ?

No one but Murray knows what happened and I'm sure we will not know the real story and the DA can't base his case on speculations he can't prove .

 

[ginvid]

See, this is where we have to agree to disagree. I believe Murray found Michael when he was already gone. Not a faint pulse, nothing. Everything else he did was to cover up what it happened.

The beads could of been moved in the commotion that followed, when the paramedics arrived to the scene.

That is true, they could have been moved. That is why it is so frustrating. It is all a guess. Even when you have facts, like a picture of the scene, many times they can be interpreted a few different ways. I was not thinking about them being moved, just offereing a suggestion based on what has been discussed and the picture. But yes that is possible. Thanks!

 

[daisy]

No one but Murray knows what happened and I'm sure we will not know the real story and the DA can't base his case on speculations he can't prove .

yes, we could only tell, basing on what's available,
what is more or less plausible.

 

[Naad]

His death was so preventable :no: