Murray's manslaughter charge hangs on voicemail evidence

[Beachlover]

On pg 31 of the coroner's report, in the anaesthesiology consultation section it does mention that the mask was not attached. As you said yourself, it is doubtful that anyone in an emergency situation would turn the tank off, well I think the same goes for removing the mask.

After reading the page it was many days later, July 13? Empty tank means nothing and the masks come off easily. I can imagine people tripping on the tubing in a second. Happens all the time in the hospital.

 

[Beachlover]

It was stated in the beginning. He told the chef what kind of drinks to give Michael.

Ok. But I find it very hard to believe that a chef with her standings would be giving sports drinks with ephedrine without mentioning it and clearing with with Michael first.

Also, no one knows it was from a sports drink. It could have been in the form of an allergy tablet which I posted on another thread about. It is meant to clear the upper respiratory system and make breathing easier.

So, we don't know how or why he might have taken the Ephedrine at all.

 

[BabeBeMine]

Thank you for saying this is your belief and your common sense. You are entitled to that but for now I will agree to disagree with you.

Question? Had Dr Murray told MJ up front i will take care of you but there will be no propofol or drugs that should be used in a hospital setting. Do you think MJ would have hired him?

 

[Soundmind]

I said this at least a week ago. You were angry and didn't listen.

I am trying to tell you that there are a few drugs that were not tested in different places.

sorry but is it really logical that they tested for propofol and did not bother with lorazepam ?

blood concentrations detected in blood collected during an autopsy are not as accurate as blood concentrations detected in hospital blood .This is basic in forensic sceince .
Chernoff will have a field day with the blood concentrations detected in femoral and heart blood , but he would not be able to do much about the concentrations determined in hospital blood .

 

[ensleyave]

Question? Had Dr Murray told MJ up front i will take care of you but there will be no propofol or drugs that should be used in a hospital setting. Do you think MJ would have hired him?

I don't know because I am not MJ therefore I cannot speak for HIM only MJ can speak for MJ. I can speculate or assume but in all fairness I choose not to speak on something I don't know actually happened. We are hinging on a defendants word in an involuntary manslaughter charge. Enough said. I will agree to disagree with you. We don't know exactly what was said in that room just like I don't know what is being said in your home right now. You can tell me but does that mean it is the truth?

 

[MicHil]

Question? Had Dr Murray told MJ up front i will take care of you but there will be no propofol or drugs that should be used in a hospital setting. Do you think MJ would have hired him?

and your own answer to that question is...?

and where is this contract that states MJ hired Murray.....? Do you think MJ would allow Murray to take care of him if he knew that Murray would give him acute amount of propofol with no infusion pump, no working breathing apparatus, and no monitoring equipments, and empty oxygen tanks?

 

[MicHil]

After reading the page it was many days later, July 13? Empty tank means nothing and the masks come off easily. I can imagine people tripping on the tubing in a second. Happens all the time in the hospital.

oh really? please explain.
empty tanks means nothing because...?

 

[Soundmind]

Question? Had Dr Murray told MJ up front i will take care of you but there will be no propofol or drugs that should be used in a hospital setting. Do you think MJ would have hired him?

If Murray told MJ I would be able to make you sleep , MJ would have given him as much as he wanted . Murray was there from the very beginning , he was in desperate need of money , mj was a patient suffering from severe insomnia , and a doctor beside him asking doctor after the other to join him , no wonder MJ was convinced it was really safe .

Murray was a greedy motherfucker , you don't tell your patient this is very safe , so you could ask for 5 millions for doing this 'odd' thing , knowing very well you are not qualified to do it , and then try to deceive him by injecting him with something he was trying desperately to avoid like lorazepam which would have made the concerts a DISASTER .

ohh Dr. Murray tried but MJ refused ......no Dr. mUrray told him GIVE ME THE JOB , I'm very capable of doing it , and opps he knew he could not , did not want to lose the job since his methods of treating insomnia did not work , instead of saying Sir , I'm sorry but I'm nolonger able to help you , he INSISTED AND BEGGED to remain , and ended up KILLING HIM because of his ignorance and stupidity , he knew he was not able to do it , but regardless he wanted the money desperately .

 

[Naturelle]

^^^
when I read this it makes me wonder if it was "premeditated"! GGGeeeessss

 

[souldreamer7]

^^^
when I read this it makes me wonder if it was "premeditated"! GGGeeeessss

:yes: atleast voluntary,he knew what he was doing...and that it was wrong.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

It could have been in the form of an allergy tablet which I posted on another thread about. It is meant to clear the upper respiratory system and make breathing easier.

could be. mj mentioned/suffered from allergies alot over the years.

 

[daisydaisy]

Ok. But I find it very hard to believe that a chef with her standings would be giving sports drinks with ephedrine without mentioning it and clearing with with Michael first.

Also, no one knows it was from a sports drink. It could have been in the form of an allergy tablet which I posted on another thread about. It is meant to clear the upper respiratory system and make breathing easier.

So, we don't know how or why he might have taken the Ephedrine at all.

Did you mean a allergy tablet containing just ephedrine?

 

[daisydaisy]

After reading the page it was many days later, July 13? Empty tank means nothing and the masks come off easily. I can imagine people tripping on the tubing in a second. Happens all the time in the hospital.

Is the kind of mask found the standard type for use hospitals or is it something different, like what's used for sleep apnea? Surely they can't some off very easily as it would be a life risk and safety risk if they did in hospital!

 

[Naturelle]

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The majority of this website was developed prior to the ban on ephedra and its contents reflect the interest at that time. So unless otherwise stated, when the word ephedra is used in this website, it refers to the ephedra sinica variety. As new material is added, the discussion will shift to legal varieties of ephedra and alternatives.

Ephedra (also known as Ma huang, Chinese Ephedra and epitonin) is the worlds oldest medicine. The Chinese discovered ephedra more than 5000 years ago. Research has shown that ephedra increases metabolism and helps promote weight loss, relaxes the air passages in the lungs to help treat asthma and cough, promotes perspiration to help a person recover from a minor cold and helps promote urination to help relieve edema. It was probably not used for weight loss until modern, food abundant times

Ephedra has been widely researched for its thermogenic (fat burning) properties. Research has show that ephedra helps promote the loss of fat while helping spare lean muscle tissue, a highly sought-after property that prescription diet medications still have not been able to reproduce.

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[daisydaisy]

sorry but is it really logical that they tested for propofol and did not bother with lorazepam ?

blood concentrations detected in blood collected during an autopsy are not as accurate as blood concentrations detected in hospital blood .This is basic in forensic sceince .
Chernoff will have a field day with the blood concentrations detected in femoral and heart blood , but he would not be able to do much about the concentrations determined in hospital blood .

Hmm, well perhaps the hospital staff were not informed about lorazepam at this stage? The hospital blood was taken at 13.30 on the 25th=so in the midst of the emergency. Perhaps Murray did not tell them about this until days later? The coroner visited the house later on that day and found the pill bottles and, even though Murray gave injections not the pills, this could have spurred them to test specifically for lorazepam. IDK, it's just a possible explanation.

 

[Soundmind]

Murray told the paramedics and told the doctors , so no , that's not an explanation. and the blood was collected on arrival , but the test was made much later .

 

[daisydaisy]

Murray told the paramedics and told the doctors , so no , that's not an explanation. and the blood was collected on arrival , but the test was made much later .

Yeah, you are right, my bad sorry. I forgot Murray told to paramedics at the time he had given him lorazepam. So some results are intentionally omitted from the report? I can't think of any other explanation.

 

[BabeBeMine]

If Murray told MJ I would be able to make you sleep , MJ would have given him as much as he wanted . Murray was there from the very beginning , he was in desperate need of money , mj was a patient suffering from severe insomnia , and a doctor beside him asking doctor after the other to join him , no wonder MJ was convinced it was really safe .

Murray was a greedy motherfucker , you don't tell your patient this is very safe , so you could ask for 5 millions for doing this 'odd' thing , knowing very well you are not qualified to do it , and then try to deceive him by injecting him with something he was trying desperately to avoid like lorazepam which would have made the concerts a DISASTER .

ohh Dr. Murray tried but MJ refused ......no Dr. mUrray told him GIVE ME THE JOB , I'm very capable of doing it , and opps he knew he could not , did not want to lose the job since his methods of treating insomnia did not work , instead of saying Sir , I'm sorry but I'm nolonger able to help you , he INSISTED AND BEGGED to remain , and ended up KILLING HIM because of his ignorance and stupidity , he knew he was not able to do it , but regardless he wanted the money desperately .

The fact that just months earlier MJ looked in to getting propofol from others tells me he was looking for that dirty Dr willing to give it to him. Remember the african american nurse who refused to give it to him and she told him it was dangerous. MJ called her a week before he died and said he felt this numb feeling on 1 side of his body.

MJ was searching for a Dr that was willing to give to him meaning he was looking for that Dirty Dr. Because any Dr that gives that to you outside of a hospital setting is Dirty and MJ knew it.

Im not defending Murray but don't make it seem like MJ knew nothing about propofol and Dr Murray out the blues just recommended trying it. MJ knew about it, used it in the past and had been looking for someone to give it to him months earler but was rejected.

Dr Murray should have had the necessary equipment to treat MJ in case his breathing slowed down as in many hospital settings in which the patients breathing starts to slow down and they use oxygen to keep them breathing. And of course not staying by MJ'
side the whole time.

 

[Beachlover]

oh really? please explain.
empty tanks means nothing because...?

These tanks have regulators on them and if the tank was being used, I can not imagine during any kind of emergency where the patient is the most important thing to worry about that anyone would stop what they are doing to turn off an oxygen tank.

 

[Beachlover]

Is the kind of mask found the standard type for use hospitals or is it something different, like what's used for sleep apnea? Surely they can't some off very easily as it would be a life risk and safety risk if they did in hospital!

Its just an oxygen mask, usually with a bag attached and it is connected by a long tube usually to something they call a "Christmas Tree" or just a narrow connector. The oxygen tubing comes off rather easily.

It is nothing like a sleep apnea mask at all. Thats a tightly fitted and strapped on piece of equipment.

 

[Beachlover]

sorry but is it really logical that they tested for propofol and did not bother with lorazepam ?

blood concentrations detected in blood collected during an autopsy are not as accurate as blood concentrations detected in hospital blood .This is basic in forensic sceince .
Chernoff will have a field day with the blood concentrations detected in femoral and heart blood , but he would not be able to do much about the concentrations determined in hospital blood .

Sound, besides all the things you are accusing Murray of....and if I say anything you will say I am defending him....which is the opposite of what you do. You are putting your own personal spin on what you think he did or said and you do it in such an angry way it sounds like it comes from pure anger and thats not a good place to investigate an autopsy or the findings behind it.

When you say something is basic forensic science, are you sure you know what you are talking about? There was Flumazenil given and if I am not mistaken, it binds to the benzos and changes their concentration in the blood. This is one of the things that we should look into as the reason it was not tested. Once you give an antagonist it changes the blood concentration if I'm not mistaken. Forensic science is not the same as a regular blood test.

These are all points to consider when the DA and the Defense start going back and forth, but lets face the true case here. Murray and what he did that morning.

There is a lot we still don't know. We don't have an accurate time of death. We have a cause, but not a time. I seriously think we have put a lot of the facts together to come up with a good idea but we don't know every little thing.

Now there is a whole bunch of fans wanting to throw out the autopsy as done wrong because it does not fit their theory. Each new piece of information we receive makes us think back on what we originally though and now some of it may have been wrong.

I am not going to speculate whether Michael 'asked for or begged for' anything on that last night. I don't know what he got the nights before. Or the weeks. We don't have the hair tox. I know what Murray supposedly said but I don't know if he told the truth.

We don't know how he got the ephedrine but someone posted stuff here and its anyones guess. To say he got it from Murray? We don't know.

There is still a lot to sit and put together but it should be done in a rational manner and we all bring something to the table so to speak.

 

[Soundmind]

The fact that just months earlier MJ looked in to getting propofol from others tells me he was looking for that dirty Dr willing to give it to him. Remember the african american nurse who refused to give it to him and she told him it was dangerous. MJ called her a week before he died and said he felt this numb feeling on 1 side of his body.

MJ was searching for a Dr that was willing to give to him meaning he was looking for that Dirty Dr. Because any Dr that gives that to you outside of a hospital setting is Dirty and MJ knew it.

Im not defending Murray but don't make it seem like MJ knew nothing about propofol and Dr Murray out the blues just recommended trying it. MJ knew about it, used it in the past and had been looking for someone to give it to him months earler but was rejected.

Dr Murray should have had the necessary equipment to treat MJ in case his breathing slowed down as in many hospital settings in which the patients breathing starts to slow down and they use oxygen to keep them breathing. And of course not staying by MJ'
side the whole time.

you do realize that Murray moved to LA as early as February and he himself was asking anesthesiologists to join the medical team ?
Murray went with MJ to see Dr.Adams at the beginning of March , that was even before he asked Lee . Murray asked one of his colleagues in Houston to join him

Did you ask yourself why MJ did not settle to Dr.Murray since the very beginning ? why did he bother even asking for other doctors ? Murray was telling him I COULD DO IT since the very beginning , Adams will testify to what exactly Murray told him in that meeting , and be sure he was WILLING TO GIVE IT and convinced MJ to allow him to give it .
He only accused both Lee and Dr.Adams in his interview with the police because he knew Adams' own version of the events would be very damaging to him , that's why he LIED and claimed Adams sedated MJ in his presence . and he knew Lee was working for MJ , was worried MJ told her about him and that's why he said she was giving him propofol also . He wanted to discredit everyone who might say anything that would incriminate him or suggest he was the doctor telling MJ it was safe and OK as long as there was a doctor monitoring .
MJ did not believe he was able or qualified else he would have hired him long before May and he would have signed his contract .

MJ was not looking for a dirty doctor, MJ was looking for someone who would help him treat his insomnia , he was not asking for recreational drugs , he wanted to sleep . Murray on the other hand KNEW he was not qualified and told him IT WAS OK , went to ask others to join him , when no one accepted the offer due to their schedules he convinced mj to hire him , even then MJ did not sign his contract .

 

[Soundmind]

Sound, besides all the things you are accusing Murray of....and if I say anything you will say I am defending him....which is the opposite of what you do. You are putting your own personal spin on what you think he did or said and you do it in such an angry way it sounds like it comes from pure anger and thats not a good place to investigate an autopsy or the findings behind it.

When you say something is basic forensic science, are you sure you know what you are talking about? There was Flumazenil given and if I am not mistaken, it binds to the benzos and changes their concentration in the blood. This is one of the things that we should look into as the reason it was not tested. Once you give an antagonist it changes the blood concentration if I'm not mistaken. Forensic science is not the same as a regular blood test.

These are all points to consider when the DA and the Defense start going back and forth, but lets face the true case here. Murray and what he did that morning.

There is a lot we still don't know. We don't have an accurate time of death. We have a cause, but not a time. I seriously think we have put a lot of the facts together to come up with a good idea but we don't know every little thing.

Now there is a whole bunch of fans wanting to throw out the autopsy as done wrong because it does not fit their theory. Each new piece of information we receive makes us think back on what we originally though and now some of it may have been wrong.

I am not going to speculate whether Michael 'asked for or begged for' anything on that last night. I don't know what he got the nights before. Or the weeks. We don't have the hair tox. I know what Murray supposedly said but I don't know if he told the truth.

We don't know how he got the ephedrine but someone posted stuff here and its anyones guess. To say he got it from Murray? We don't know.

There is still a lot to sit and put together but it should be done in a rational manner and we all bring something to the table so to speak.

yes I'm super sure I read it in a forensic book , it was mentioned , concentrations in blood collected at the hospital immediately after death are much more reliable than blood collected after one or more days during an autopsy , and blood detected from peripheral parts is also much more reliable than blood collected from the heart during an autopsy procedure .

You already said Flumazenil may have not been detected because MJ was already dead , so how come flumazenil would have influenced the benzos concentration ?

I don't believe for a minute they intentionally kept out any mention of flumazenil detected in his blood , flumazenil is not faster than propofol . If he had flumazenil in his system they would have mentioned it .

No one wants Murray's head, the DA does not have an agenda here, this is not sneddon who intentionally was helding any information that would help the defence . There is a huge difference here .

the only time the LAPD and DA leaked any info was when Chernoff blasted them for the cause of death and claimed mj might very well have taken something himself and was a long time addict , that's when they leaked the portions about his healthy organs and no pills in stomach . and they did succeed in shutting him up .

as for ephedrine , it was found in his bag, they seized similar drug from his office in Houston , so clearly they believe he was responsible for that , why should I gave Murray the benefit of the doubt then ?
why should I tell others MJ was taking it on his own ? WHY ?

 

[Beachlover]

I think Michael and Murray both knew that it would take more than ONE doctor/nurse to do this. I think they were both looking for another physician to join them. I think the contract was not signed because Michael wanted TWO doctors, not one.

He was right to want two for safety reasons. Michael knew the dangers of this drug and how difficult it is for one person to be awake night after night alone watching him.

We don't know what Michael truly asked Murray for. Did he want Propofol only? We don't know what Murray discussed with his patient behind closed doors. However, if you think that Michael truly went around to other doctors telling them Murray didn't know what he was doing; or if Michael himself felt Murray didn't know what he was doing, how do you explain the fact that Michael allowed this doctor to actually administer anything while he was in the most vulnerable position?

Hasn't it been said that Michael is very smart and very suspicious of others and very knowledgeable about medicine? What is your explanation for having a doctor you think is incompetent to put in an IV line in your ankle and administer anything to you while you are sleeping?

 

[Beachlover]

as for ephedrine , it was found in his bag, they seized similar drug from his office in Houston , so clearly they believe he was responsible for that , why should I gave Murray the benefit of the doubt then ?
why should I tell others MJ was taking it on his own ? WHY ?

I am not saying you should tell anyone anything about it. Give all the facts and let people come to their own conclusions there. The drug found in his bag contained Aspirin too, which was not found in his blood and it was tested for.

I already posted the many available forms of this drug and it is quite possible he did take it as an allergy/breathing easier pill. We do not know. This drug is available all over the place.

 

[Soundmind]

We don't know what Michael truly asked Murray for. Did he want Propofol only? We don't know what Murray discussed with his patient behind closed doors. However, if you think that Michael truly went around to other doctors telling them Murray didn't know what he was doing; or if Michael himself felt Murray didn't know what he was doing, how do you explain the fact that Michael allowed this doctor to actually administer anything while he was in the most vulnerable position?

Hasn't it been said that Michael is very smart and very suspicious of others and very knowledgeable about medicine? What is your explanation for having a doctor you think is incompetent to put in an IV line in your ankle and administer anything to you while you are sleeping?

no Michael did not tell these doctors Murray did not know what to do , these doctors especially Adams will testify to what MURRAY told them , that's the important thing , and yes they are many things we don't know one of them why MJ declined to sign Murray's contract, MJ trusted him because he was BEGGING , there were witnesses , murray was begging MJ to trust him , unfortuently MJ's worries were very much justified and he ended up dead .

Murray's desperatation for the job and the salary was much more than MJ's for propofol .

 

[Justthefacts]

The fact that just months earlier MJ looked in to getting propofol from others tells me he was looking for that dirty Dr willing to give it to him. Remember the african american nurse who refused to give it to him and she told him it was dangerous. MJ called her a week before he died and said he felt this numb feeling on 1 side of his body.

MJ was searching for a Dr that was willing to give to him meaning he was looking for that Dirty Dr. Because any Dr that gives that to you outside of a hospital setting is Dirty and MJ knew it.

Im not defending Murray but don't make it seem like MJ knew nothing about propofol and Dr Murray out the blues just recommended trying it. MJ knew about it, used it in the past and had been looking for someone to give it to him months earler but was rejected.

Dr Murray should have had the necessary equipment to treat MJ in case his breathing slowed down as in many hospital settings in which the patients breathing starts to slow down and they use oxygen to keep them breathing. And of course not staying by MJ'
side the whole time.

If Michael was looking for a dirty doctor would have looked no further then Arnold Klein. Even if the Murray the right stuff to use Propofol it does not change the fact that he had no business using that stuff. Conrad Murray was Michael's doctor as pointed out in this thread he knew as far back as March about Michael's interest in Propofol. So lets not act like Michael called and said hey can you do this on June and Murray said sure he knew right around the time since the AEG deal Michael wanted that stuff.

 

[Beachlover]

no Michael did not tell these doctors Murray did not know what to do , these doctors especially Adams will testify to what MURRAY told them , that's the important thing , and yes they are many things we don't know one of them why MJ declined to sign Murray's contract, MJ trusted him because he was BEGGING , there were witnesses , murray was begging MJ to trust him , unfortuently MJ's worries were very much justified and he ended up dead .

Murray's desperatation for the job and the salary was much more than MJ's for propofol .

I think I am confused here. What do you mean Murray was begging Michael?

Someone comes along to Michael and begs and Michael will trust this person because they beg? That doesn't sound like someone who has any clue what they are even asking for. You are saying Michael was worried the doctor was incompetent and he STILL allowed him to place an IV in his arm and give him anything at all?

How did we get to a place in the discussion where Michael clearly didn't want this doctor to administer; did not trust this doctor, and yet he actually allowed him to do this...even called him at some time that night?

 

[Soundmind]

yes MJ asked Lee in April during the Easter weekend , while Murray went with him to see Adams as early as 4 or 5 March . MJ was looking for a qualified doctor , it does fit with what Lee said about MJ telling her HIS DOCTOR WAS TELLING HIM IT WAS OK ,murray was scared to death of what Lee might reveal , he was worried MJ named him , unfortunately MJ did not tell her , but Adams heard first hand what Murray said and he will testify to that .

that's why Murray felt it is important to accuse Adams and try to downplay his very damaging version of what happened in his office in March , if Murray felt it was not safe , he would not have visited Adams nor would he asked his colleagues to join him .

I think I am confused here. What do you mean Murray was begging Michael?

Someone comes along to Michael and begs and Michael will trust this person because they beg? That doesn't sound like someone who has any clue what they are even asking for. You are saying Michael was worried the doctor was incompetent and he STILL allowed him to place an IV in his arm and give him anything at all?

How did we get to a place in the discussion where Michael clearly didn't want this doctor to administer; did not trust this doctor, and yet he actually allowed him to do this...even called him at some time that night?

Murray was more than desperate for the job , it is very obvious, MJ did want a much qualified doctor , Murray was there from the very beginning , Murray eventually convinced MJ he could do it himself , screwed up and MJ died , what is so hard to understand ?

I already posted the many available forms of this drug and it is quite possible he did take it as an allergy/breathing easier pill. We do not know. This drug is available all over the place.

oh really !!! and where were the allergy/breathing pills ? They collected pills bottles dated as far back as july 2008 and many were empty , but they did not find the ephedrine pills !!!!!

the ephedrine was detected in his urine only , why did not you say the aspirin and caffeine left the body faster than ephedrine ? VERY MUCH POSSIBLE .

 

[Soundmind]

I think Michael and Murray both knew that it would take more than ONE doctor/nurse to do this. I think they were both looking for another physician to join them. I think the contract was not signed because Michael wanted TWO doctors, not one.

For 5 millions Murray believed he was very much qualified to do it , and even for much less 150.000 a month he agreed to do it , and MJ still did not sign his contract .

murray is a pathetic excuse for a doctor , he knew he could not do it , he yet told MJ he could do it , everything suggest MJ was the one asking for another doctor and Murray was there convicning him he would do it alone .

You said I think "both" , I said I think MJ ALONE, it's up to other members to believe whether Murray really wanted other doctor to join him and get half of his salary or not . Money was not a problem to MJ, safety was his biggest concerns while another doctor meant less money for Murray and all Murray cared about was money .