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Why can't we hire our own expert? (updated on page 3)

TheMan1998;3143310 said:
And here is ***'s response:


Eli - your Query interests me as I am both a forensic audio examiner and a forensic musicologist. To answer your question, I typically charge $250 per hour with a 2 hour minimum retainer. We may be able to negotiate a better deal if the case has merit legally as it would be high profile and give me publicity. You are basically talking about voice identification. There are two methods - average pitch analysis and spectrographic analysis - word by word. We usually need 10 words in common to make a legally defensible argument. Vocals isolated is much preferred. Lets talk.
Click to expand...

I'll be honest and say this "high profile and give me publicity" comment bugs me. It's obvious that the other side's approach isn't working for fans and answering their questions but rather hoping that this goes to trial and this person becomes the expert that started it all.

Plus I also do not think that we have the acapella vocals. What we have vocals stripped from the finished song which by Sony and estate's account is worked on and by Teddy Riley's account has melodyne effect. So it will be a comparison of a modified vocals and not the raw vocals. The results could be conflicting with the experts of Sony/estate however in an event of a trial that conflicting results won't mean much as Sony/estate will have the upper hand as they evaluated raw vocals.

so I understand the 10 word comparison but how do they account for supporting vocals? I mean again by The estate's account is James Porte is on the supporting vocals. If a word comparison is done and it turns out to be not Michael but James Porte then it wouldn't be fake vocals.

wolfrevenant;3143625 said:
You could also try the forensic musicologist that the maximumjackson members consulted. Either that, or just take his advice into consideration: http://www.maximum-jackson.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=23158
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I actually read that thread and that expert actually says it will be a waste of money to go through with such examination .

Mr. Norway;3143551 said:
But by all means, I truly support a scientific to do this, too. But to me there is absolutely no doubt that Seth Riggs knows Michael Jackson´s voice better than ANY fan no matter how many years we have been listening to MJ because he has both been listening to him, woked with him and is a professional who knows what to listen for. He also knows his voice better than any producer or family member IMHO. So to me Seth is the ultimate expert on MJ´s voice.
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Mr.Norway : I don't think that anyone argues about Seth Riggs's knowledge about Michael's voice. I think the argument is more from a legal perspective. In a court of law although people like Seth Riggs, Bruce Sweedien etc could bring their highly knowledgeable opinions (and will be listened to) any scientifically established technique will have more weight.
 
serena williams said:
If 2 musicologists give the exact same results whatever the results i dont know why and HOW i could go against them especialy when its SCIENTIFIC results

I am against the Cascio tracks and havent bought the album
But if 2 independant forensics say they are 100% michael no doutbs about that (with all the proof etc ) then i will go and buy my copy and be one of the first to say sorry i have no problem to recognise my mistakes
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And You think the damage done only by you (not speaking of all the others) is then revoked?

By buying & saying sorry for your mistake?

Gosh.. Yes Michael can be very proud of you, then!
 
ivy said:
I'll be honest and say this "high profile and give me publicity" comment bugs me. It's obvious that the other side's approach isn't working for fans and answering their questions but rather hoping that this goes to trial and this person becomes the expert that started it all.
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I was just gonna mention this...That's been bugging me all night...lol....Just the fact that he had to throw that comment in there...hmmm...
 
ivy;3143644 said:
Mr.Norway : I don't think that anyone argues about Seth Riggs's knowledge about Michael's voice. I think the argument is more from a legal perspective. In a court of law although people like Seth Riggs, Bruce Sweedien etc could bring their highly knowledgeable opinions (and will be listened to) any scientifically established technique will have more weight.
Click to expand...

- Yes, Ivy, I absolutely follow you there and I am also very much a fan of hiring a professional to give a "professional" judgement about it based on scientific proof. I really did not mean to sound negative about that at all, just so you know, i am very much with you.

My point was just that to me, personally, I would very much trust Seth´s judgement of it because I believe he knows MJ´s voice better than anyone, including his family, producers and EVEN us fans (not to offend anyone, though). That´s why I just wish he would comment on it. But of course, just like you say, in court science is better. So I still think we´re friends here :)
 
TheMan1998 said:
Thanks, good thinking. Contact info removed. Anyway, since we have yet to decide which audio expert we're gonna hire, no damage was done.. I'll be contacting a few other experts in this matter. Still waiting to hear from staff members. BTW' I'm quite sure that there is some audio expert out there that would love to take this case even for free' after all think of all the publicity he is going to get if he successfully proves it's not MJ singing!
Click to expand...

that's not how you should make a question. it should not be "to prove it's not Michael". it should be "to find out whether it's Michael or not". because no matter how sure you are you still should think of a chance that it's actually Michael.

and you should find someone you will trust so that if it turns out to be Michael none of you say that this expert was bribed.
 
There is of course one big problem.............we don't have the original vocals..........


There is a chance that if you use the Melodyne vocals for forensic examination......

.......The expert could end up saying, "This might not be Michael" or "This could be Michael"!!!!!!

.......In other words.......the expert has absolutely no idea if it really is Michael or not!!!!!!



That's the risk we have to be willing to take (and pay for)!!!!!
 
If the doubters really want this issue resolved the only way to do this is to take Sony and the estate to court for consumer fraud.

If you are so sure it is not Michael then you should first hire a lawyer and go from there. In court, everything would be resolved.

You do not have the raw vocals which would be needed if you want to hire your own expert. It would be a waste of your money to do so.
 
Why don't we get Michael's family involved...........they started it!!!


They complain about it but I have yet to see them take the Estate and Sony to court over all this............

........Instead, they get Howard Mann to release "Opis None" which is worse the the Cascio songs...........


Get the family involved!!!!!!!
 
Better still, why the f@"& don't the family just do this them selves since they are FAMILY!?
That's the part that bugs me more than anything.... Your telling me they don't have $250 p/h to spare..... They probably spend that on toilet roll!
 
I agree the family needs to get involved. They started this mess...

I am happy to help out... but there is only so much we can do.
 
Which ever expert is getting contacted...
make you sure you also send in files of Jason Malachi.
So they can check if the songs in question are rather sung by this person.
I think thats easier to find out than "is it MJ or not".

A lot of people don't know that there is someone that sounds as close to MJ as Jason does. Therefor their judgement always leads towards thinking its MJ.
 
Krshna28 said:
Why don't we get Michael's family involved...........they started it!!!


They complain about it but I have yet to see them take the Estate and Sony to court over all this............

........Instead, they get Howard Mann to release "Opis None" which is worse the the Cascio songs...........


Get the family involved!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

indeed!
 
Triumph said:
Which ever expert is getting contacted...
make you sure you also send in files of Jason Malachi.
So they can check if the songs in question are rather sung by this person.
I think thats easier to find out than "is it MJ or not".

A lot of people don't know that there is someone that sounds as close to MJ as Jason does. Therefor their judgement always leads towards thinking its MJ.
Click to expand...

Good points.....
 
ivy said:
I'll be honest and say this "high profile and give me publicity" comment bugs me. It's obvious that the other side's approach isn't working for fans and answering their questions but rather hoping that this goes to trial and this person becomes the expert that started it all.
Click to expand...

Because of that, that expert should be chosen from a select list, of one of the best in US. Such expert would be very careful with his REPUTATION, would not struggle to rich fame, and our money cannot blind him, being already successful and rich.

So fans should aim experts from top 10 range. And that would be enormous expensive.

Not too mention providing him with raw vocals of BN.

Also raw vocals from other older song ( not fan made ) Example Mike singing on Mexican court, that would be raw vocals sung in a non studio environment.
 
tricia70 said:
If the doubters really want this issue resolved the only way to do this is to take Sony and the estate to court for consumer fraud.

If you are so sure it is not Michael then you should first hire a lawyer and go from there. In court, everything would be resolved.

You do not have the raw vocals which would be needed if you want to hire your own expert. It would be a waste of your money to do so.
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Yeah, and then you can legally obtain the raw vocals and analyze them.

Not too mention that in that legal action should be mentioned all of them - The Michael Jackson Estate, then Cascios, Teddy Riley and yeah Sony.

( I am not agreeing with this action, but if they wanna these are the steps )
 
Update:

I am currently in contact with 2 other musicologists and forensic audio expert. I sent them 2 sample of a-cappellas my Michael (YRMW) and BN. I cannot reveal their names yet, but here is what on of them wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So far, my preliminary average pitch analysis of the acapella vocals shows that the voices are not from the same person.

The links used are below:

Here is the link to the suspicious song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmJAKWrjyGU

here is a sample of a a-cappella version of MJ authentic song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjWTdW2qdmc&feature=related

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So basically, The voices DO NOT MATCH !!!!!!!!!! but of course this is only based on preliminary analysis.. What They need is common words spoken/sung by Michael without music that also appear on Breaking News. Can you please help me find those common words? here are the BN lyrics:


Everybody wanting a piece of Michael Jackson.
Reporters stalking the moves of Michael Jackson.
Just when you thought he was done,
he comes to give it again.”

no matter what, you just wanna read it again
no matter what, you just wanna feel it again

now is that strange that i fall in love
who is the boogie man you thinkin’ of
all went crazy coz im just in love
this is breaking news X2

everybody watching the news of michael jackson
They want to see that I fall,
cause I’m Michael Jackson

You write the words to destroy
like it’s a weapon

you turn your back on the love and you think you can get it again

no matter what, you just wanna read it again
no matter what, you just wanna feel it again

now is that strange that i fall in love
who is the boogie man you thinkin’ of
all went crazy coz im just in love
this is breaking news X2

now is that strange that i fall inlove
who is the boogie man you thinkin’ of
all went crazy coz im just in love
this is breaking news X2

all the news today they say CRAZY time
who is stranger today we want this day baby

now is that strange that i fall in love
who is the boogie man you thinkin’ of
all went crazy coz im just in love
this is breaking news X2

now is that strange that i fall in love
who is the boogie man you thinkin’ of
all went crazy coz im just in love
this is breaking news X2
 
One more thing. One of them asked me how come Michael's family are not involved in this? Weren't they the ones who started this? Is there anyone here who is in contact with a member of the family?
 
TheMan1998;3144956 said:
Update:

I am currently in contact with 2 other musicologists and forensic audio expert. I sent them 2 sample of a-cappellas my Michael (YRMW) and BN. I cannot reveal their names yet, but here is what on of them wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So far, my preliminary average pitch analysis of the acapella vocals shows that the voices are not from the same person.

The links used are below:

Here is the link to the suspicious song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmJAKWrjyGU

here is a sample of a a-cappella version of MJ authentic song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjWTdW2qdmc&feature=related

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So basically, The voices DO NOT MATCH !!!!!!!!!! but of course this is only based on preliminary analysis.. What They need is common words spoken/sung by Michael without music that also appear on Breaking News. Can you please help me find those common words? here are the BN lyrics:


Everybody wanting a piece of Michael Jackson.
Reporters stalking the moves of Michael Jackson.
Just when you thought he was done,
he comes to give it again.”

no matter what, you just wanna read it again
no matter what, you just wanna feel it again

now is that strange that i fall in love
who is the boogie man you thinkin’ of
all went crazy coz im just in love
this is breaking news X2

everybody watching the news of michael jackson
They want to see that I fall,
cause I’m Michael Jackson

You write the words to destroy
like it’s a weapon

you turn your back on the love and you think you can get it again

no matter what, you just wanna read it again
no matter what, you just wanna feel it again

now is that strange that i fall in love
who is the boogie man you thinkin’ of
all went crazy coz im just in love
this is breaking news X2

now is that strange that i fall inlove
who is the boogie man you thinkin’ of
all went crazy coz im just in love
this is breaking news X2

all the news today they say CRAZY time
who is stranger today we want this day baby

now is that strange that i fall in love
who is the boogie man you thinkin’ of
all went crazy coz im just in love
this is breaking news X2

now is that strange that i fall in love
who is the boogie man you thinkin’ of
all went crazy coz im just in love
this is breaking news X2
Click to expand...
for the test to count it would have to from the SAME vocals that were used by the estate and sony vocals coming from a youtube clip could be sung by anyone no proof they were the ones used to make the track. Would be thrown out of court.

What I mean is anyone could have recorded that and put it out saying it was a leaked acappella of BN.
Secondly why would any expert give even that much info for free sound very much like tell you what you want to hear and reel you in. There have always been people around who will say or do anything if connected to MJ just to make their name (and alot of money)
 
TheMan1998 said:
One more thing. One of them asked me how come Michael's family are not involved in this? Weren't they the ones who started this? Is there anyone here who is in contact with a member of the family?
Click to expand...

Keep up the good work! I don't see how this could go on if it weren't for you. And as I said before, when you make a deal and it gets to money, I am here to contribute

I remember some members contacting Taryll on Twitter. Can one of them ask him if the family have any plans to go to court? Or if they are willing to help with this investigation?
 
TheMan1998 said:
One more thing. One of them asked me how come Michael's family are not involved in this? Weren't they the ones who started this? Is there anyone here who is in contact with a member of the family?
Click to expand...
Perhaps because they dont really believe its fake themselves?
 
tricia70 said:
if the doubters really want this issue resolved the only way to do this is to take sony and the estate to court for consumer fraud.

If you are so sure it is not michael then you should first hire a lawyer and go from there. In court, everything would be resolved.

You do not have the raw vocals which would be needed if you want to hire your own expert. It would be a waste of your money to do so.
Click to expand...

edit edit
 
Last edited:
TheMan1998 said:
Update:

I am currently in contact with 2 other musicologists and forensic audio expert. I sent them 2 sample of a-cappellas my Michael (YRMW) and BN. I cannot reveal their names yet, but here is what on of them wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So far, my preliminary average pitch analysis of the acapella vocals shows that the voices are not from the same person.

The links used are below:
Click to expand...


We also did the same preliminary tests on a french mj forum comparing exactely YRMW and BN and the results were exactely the same NO MATCH

We just need somedy courageous who can bring the case to court and make the other non believers follow him ( and they will follow massively with finance to back it up )

But so far despite all the elements we get nobody have dared to go farer
 
serena williams said:
We also did the same preliminary tests on a french mj forum comparing exactely YRMW and BN and the results were exactely the same NO MATCH

We just need somedy courageous who can bring the case to court and make the other non believers follow him ( and they will follow massively with finance to back it up )

But so far despite all the elements we get nobody have dared to go farer
Click to expand...
Just a quick question, why YRMW a cappella?
 
barok232 said:
Keep up the good work! I don't see how this could go on if it weren't for you. And as I said before, when you make a deal and it gets to money, I am here to contribute

I remember some members contacting Taryll on Twitter. Can one of them ask him if the family have any plans to go to court? Or if they are willing to help with this investigation?
Click to expand...

I have already. He didn't respond.
 
Quote Ivy :

[Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMan1998 View Post
And here is ***'s response:


[Eli - your Query interests me as I am both a forensic audio examiner and a forensic musicologist. To answer your question, I typically charge $250 per hour with a 2 hour minimum retainer. We may be able to negotiate a better deal if the case has merit legally as it would be high profile and give me publicity. You are basically talking about voice identification. There are two methods - average pitch analysis and spectrographic analysis - word by word. We usually need 10 words in common to make a legally defensible argument. Vocals isolated is much preferred. Lets talk.]

Ivy answer :

[I'll be honest and say this "high profile and give me publicity" comment bugs me. It's obvious that the other side's approach isn't working for fans and answering their questions but rather hoping that this goes to trial and this person becomes the expert that started it all.

Plus I also do not think that we have the acapella vocals. What we have vocals stripped from the finished song which by Sony and estate's account is worked on and by Teddy Riley's account has melodyne effect. So it will be a comparison of a modified vocals and not the raw vocals. The results could be conflicting with the experts of Sony/estate however in an event of a trial that conflicting results won't mean much as Sony/estate will have the upper hand as they evaluated raw vocals.]


I think you are right Ivy.
 
Pentum said:
Just a quick question, why YRMW a cappella?
Click to expand...

Sorry i have checked again the topic on this forum
And actualy it was Keep your Head up vs Break of Dawn and it wasnt acapella
Thats why we say " preliminary" to have a fisrt idea
I couldnt be able to translate it in english because there are too much technical words
 
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