Preliminary Hearing 5/1/11 Day two. Discussion thread

[Petrarose]

That's not true! Erin on utream said that Senneff said how can I even answer that? He didn't know where the pros was going with that! And the judge cut off right there! He never answered yes to that question!

Thanks for this. We really need transcripts if we are to stick to the facts.

 

[chanel05]

I hope the coroner or other authority testifies? That would clear up alot of this mess IMO. To me, Murray's team is playing games with people when they knew frickin' well that Murray was running willy-nilly and messing with Michael's life from the minute he was hired. I'm so disgusted and sad by this that it makes me sick to my stomach.

if youre talkin about the person who performed the autopsy, thats the pathologist. im sure both the corner and the pathologist will testify in the trial. im not sure if they will in the prelim

 

[ExoticPrincess]

Funny, Katherine didn't make such a plea when her children, husband, and friends were calling Michael an addict. Where was this outrage when Oxman went on every new show and called Michael an addict? Where was it when Janet called him an addict or Randy or Rebbie. It's a little late to act outrage now.

Joe, just no comment.

BINGO!:yes:

Well Mrs Jackson if you want them to stop you should have made your children stop

BINGO!

Mistake after mistake was all that was happening that night/day.......so surreal! how could one person be so incompitent???

 

[StacyJ]

Bingo is right

 

[bluetopez]

Thanks for this. We really need transcripts if we are to stick to the facts.

Ur welcome!

But, On that post I also meant the DEFENSE! I fixed that mistake too! Since it was Chernoff who TMZ was BS quoting it's clearly the defense their talking about and who I was too! :doh:

 

[ginvid]

All right! Let's not turn this into a bash Katherine thread. Let's stay on topic please.

 

[xo_lola_xo]

I was just reading the updates thread and they have no defence! Why not just give up instead of wasting everyone's time and just embarrassing themselves?

The situation is heartbreaking but the only light in it is seeing the fans slowly become back together for hope, love and justice. :heart:

 

[MJFan07]

true i agree and many would also. everyone knows what muarry did was messed up and most blame him for it. also most will wonder why mj was even in that situation at all. for the life of me i will never understand that

I agree what MJ was doing was not normal, but it also should be placed into context. He did not have a doctor with him every night until he started rehearsals for these concerts. It's not like he was doing this 365 days a year for years on end.

I heard once that performing a concert is like running a marathon. Clearly, during this time good sleep was absolutely critical for him, more so than under normal circumstances. Additionally, due to the pressure and the excitement of the concerts it was probably harder than under normal circumstances for him to sleep.

It is understandable that he would ask a professional for help to get through these rehearsals and concerts. He just unfortunately trusted the wrong professional (if I can use that word to describe Murray).

And we don't know what Murray told Michael. He may very well have mislead him about the medication he was giving him. With all the drugs Murray was giving him to sedate him, it's possible that MJ didn't even know Murray had injected him with propofal.

And what reason should MJ have to distrust a professional doctor? It's true that one should always be wary of people, however Michael was so kind hearted that I think he always saw the best in people.

Given all of this I don't think it's as strange as it appears on the surface. The prosecution just needs to explain the situation in a way that is symathetic to Michael. I certainly don't think any less of him b/c of this situation and I don't think the jury will either if explained appropriately.

 

[Ramona122003]

That doesn't matter at all. Doctors have to make those decisions, not the patients. Doesn't matter how much money they have and/or how much they beg for things. If I go see a dentist and tell him to pull all my teeth, including the healthy ones, he won't do it just because I asked for it. Doctors have to do what's best for you, not what you think might be best for you.

True, but that's not how they see it. Murray did something stupid, but Michael was equally stupid for going along with it, even after being warn. He wasn't even an addict so it wasn't like he wasn't thinking clearly. He didn't even chose a person who was an expect in the drug he was taking. That's how they see it.

To them, they can't understand how a family man with his entire life ahead of them could throw it all away on something so pointless and silly.

I don't agree, but other have their opinions too and you have to take those opinions into account when thinking about who will be on that jury. The fact is, some people will not be that sympathetic towards Michael because they may be thinking in the back of their minds, 'that stupid moron'. And lets face it, we've all done it. Even if you take his kids into account they would still call him an idiot for allowing himself to be taking advantage of and killed.

They hate Murray, but they will always shake their heads at Michael.

 

[Petrarose]

Chernoff did not ask that. Paramedics said what they saw him in shower cap when they arrived.

The autopsy report says that Michael was wearing a wig. Why he would need a shower cap to go to sleep? It does not make any sense so far.

If I remember correctly from the autopsy report the hair was attached, which means he may have had extensions. Therefore, he could not take off a "wig" and his hair was styled in curls. Also, I thought they said he had on a night cap originally. I assume this is the cloth caps worn in the night to keep hairstyles intact.

 

[chanel05]

I agree what MJ was doing was not normal, but it also should be placed into context. He did not have a doctor with him every night until he started rehearsals for these concerts. It's not like he was doing this 365 days a year for years on end.

I heard once that performing a concert is like running a marathon. Clearly, during this time good sleep was absolutely critical for him, more so than under normal circumstances. Additionally, due to the pressure and the excitement of the concerts it was probably harder than under normal circumstances for him to sleep.

It is understandable that he would ask a professional for help to get through these rehearsals and concerts. He just unfortunately trusted the wrong professional (if I can use that word to describe Murray).

And we don't know what Murray told Michael. He may very well have mislead him about the medication he was giving him. With all the drugs Murray was giving him to sedate him, it's possible that MJ didn't even know Murray had injected him with propofal.

And what reason should MJ have to distrust a professional doctor? It's true that one should always be wary of people, however Michael was so kind hearted that I think he always saw the best in people.

Given all of this I don't think it's as strange as it appears on the surface. The prosecution just needs to explain the situation in a way that is symathetic to Michael. I certainly don't think any less of him b/c of this situation and I don't think the jury will either if explained appropriately.

i understand... most people have doctors that go on tour with them not just mj. i think mj knew about the propofol. the nurse and those doctor could be lying(the anestheisiologist who said he gave him propofol on part of his last tour) but from what they said mj knew what is was. it is still strange though. i understand mj seen it as do or die and he probably felt like it justified the use of it. he should have went to a good sleep specialist to find out whats is wrong and try to fix it instead of using propofol as a way to help it. n muarry should not have been greedy and gave it...

 

[Asedora]

I heard once that performing a concert is like running a marathon. Clearly, during this time good sleep was absolutely critical for him, more so than under normal circumstances. Additionally, due to the pressure and the excitement of the concerts it was probably harder than under normal circumstances for him to sleep.

It is understandable that he would ask a professional for help to get through these rehearsals and concerts. He just unfortunately trusted the wrong professional (if I can use that word to describe Murray).

.

Yes, he needed a PROFESSIONAL help. Murray was a CARDIOLOGIST, not a sleep specialist. It is a mystery for me why he was HIRED to help MJ to sleep. What a nonsense!

 

[chanel05]

If I remember correctly from the autopsy report the hair was attached, which means he may have had extensions. Therefore, he could not take off a "wig" and his hair was styled in curls. Also, I thought they said he had on a night cap originally. I assume this is the cloth caps worn in the night to keep hairstyles intact.

yea but they specificlly said wig... it could have been a lacefront wig(which i think it was. a regular wig wouldnt look that real). also it was a cloth because you dont wear a shower cap to sleep cause its plastic

 

[Memefan]

Why the heck would mj be wearing a shower cap in bed anyway???

chernoff is stupid...it was a sleeping cap.

Most black folks who perm their hair use a silk scarf on their hair to protect it. there you have it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramona122003
I mean the way his died is strange and more than a little horrifying. I don't mean this as a dig towards Michael, but people will wonder how he could get himself into such a mess. From picking someone who isn't train, to using propfol to sleep, to allowing himself to be hook up like a patient, is a little much.

People may understand the medical 'errors' Murray did and he should pay for them. But, I don't think the average person would ever understand why Michael would do this to himself with kids in the house and being warn of the dangers. Which is what I meant when I said I could understand the weird & wacky part of it. Because it is weird and wacky.

I am asking the same questions. Why in the world would MJ agree to be hooked up to these machines, put a condom catheter on, pads on his bed to protect it from leaks ..this is just too much. He was a 50 year old man...not an invalid for chrissake. Why would he agree to this humiliating/degrading treatment for 2 months???

I cannot believe anything I read today. And I think, for once I am asking these very questions. Even though Murray bares the responsibility of MJ's death, I can't help but rethink his role in his own death. And that makes me very sad.

Conspiracy or not...he agreed to this treatment (no one will put a damn catheter with me agreeing 2 it) ... and remember he had been saying for years people wanted to kill him.

But he agreed to Murray doing this to him while his kids are sleeping in the house. I am appalled ...and very sad.

And he died alone...

God what an awful awful story...I cannot believe how MJ's life ended.

I wonder if his eyes & mouth were opened because he was fighting death...

 

[jemini515]

What do u mean "that conrad did not give teh fatal dose"??

Of course he did, he was the only person in the room!

Oops, I can see how my post may be taken out of context.... I was referring to the defense's position that Murray did not give the fatal dose; of course I believe he did. Sorry, it's hard to type being this frazzled by everything.

 

[AllForMJ]

It looks like MJ died somewhere between 10:40 a.m. and 11:51 a.m. That is a 1 hour and 11 minutes window.

From 11:51 a.m. to 12:21 p.m., Conrad Murray was, for 21 minutes, semi trying to save MJ while he was more so trying to cover up all the things that he knew could get him locked up.

So, one of the questions is...

What was Murray doing during the 1 hour and 11 minutes?

It is obvious that he was not monitoring MJ the whole entire time, or he would have had a chance to get some help for MJ before he had fully slipped into a state where he could not be revived.

 

[mijaons]

yeah you would think the media had an agenda wouldnt you!!

Bastards! I hardly see any updates. I mean noone even focused on Alvarez breaking down while talking about the kids or that the family was int ears listening to all this. I wish we could build some public sympathy through this for Michael so there will be some momentum if there ever is any movement towards pressing additional charges. God, this is all so heartbreaking. I feel awful for the family having to sit and listen to this firsthand. I couldn't do it.

 

[Petrarose]

yea but they specificlly said wig... it could have been a lacefront wig(which i think it was. a regular wig wouldnt look that real). also it was a cloth because you dont wear a shower cap to sleep cause its plastic

They describe it as attached, therefore, it was extensions that was attached to his head. Not a wig that you could put on and take off.

 

[Asedora]

yea but they specificlly said wig... it could have been a lacefront wig(which i think it was. a regular wig wouldnt look that real). also it was a cloth because you dont wear a shower cap to sleep cause its plastic

As far as I remember (correct me if I am wrong) paramedics testified that it was a shower cap. And this is what does not make sense to me. This is why asked. It is a murder and this is why a detail like that could be important too. You never know.

 

[MJFan07]

i understand... most people have doctors that go on tour with them not just mj. i think mj knew about the propofol. the nurse and those doctor could be lying(the anestheisiologist who said he gave him propofol on part of his last tour) but from what they said mj knew what is was. it is still strange though. i understand mj seen it as do or die and he probably felt like it justified the use of it. he should have went to a good sleep specialist to find out whats is wrong and try to fix it instead of using propofol as a way to help it. n muarry should not have been greedy and gave it...

You make a very good point. But for me, b/c we will never hear MJ's side of the story I think he should be given the benefit of the doubt in the situation. I remember Dr. Patrick Treacy saying that this behaviour was completely out of character for Michael and he himself found it hard to believe MJ would have agreed to being given Propofal by Murray based on past behavior. We will never know what MJ did or did not agree to and what he really knew. I think as the victim he deserves the benefit of the doubt. Plus, it's ultimately the doctor's responsibility to administer the proper care and at the end of the day even if MJ did ask for it, it should be irrelevant to the charges at hand. The prosecution needs to be sure to stress this to the Jury. That's why I don't get why the defense keeps trying to paint MJ in a bad light. It's irrelevant. MJ's not on trial. Murray is.

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

Court News: High Profile Document List - People vs Conrad Murray
https://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/cou...ray&casenum=SA073164&date=2010-05-04+10:54:51

 

[Petrarose]

chernoff is stupid...it was a sleeping cap.



Quote:


I am asking the same questions. Why in the world would MJ agree to be hooked up to these machines, put a condom catheter on, pads on his bed to protect it from leaks ..this is just too much. He was a 50 year old man...not an invalid for chrissake. Why would he agree to this humiliating/degrading treatment for 2 months???

I cannot believe anything I read today. And I think, for once I am asking these very questions. Even though Murray bares the responsibility of MJ's death, I can't help but rethink his role in his own death. And that makes me very sad.

Conspiracy or not...he agreed to this treatment (no one will put a damn catheter with me agreeing 2 it) ... and remember he had been saying for years people wanted to kill him.

But he agreed to Murray doing this to him while his kids are sleeping in the house. I am appalled ...and very sad.

I understand what you are saying. How I am dealing with this is that I am focusing on what Murray did that was WRONG, because I do not know what Michael's wishes were, and the extent of his sleep deprivation. It seems to me that if he would use that method of sleep, then he was yearning to get a good night's sleep. We cannot understand it unless we are in his shoes. I know that Michael did not kill himself, so I cannot blame the victim. However, I understand your feelings here.

 

[Justthefacts]

chernoff is stupid...it was a sleeping cap.

Most black folks who perm their hair use a silk scarf on their hair to protect it. there you have it.

Quote:


I am asking the same questions. Why in the world would MJ agree to be hooked up to these machines, put a condom catheter on, pads on his bed to protect it from leaks ..this is just too much. He was a 50 year old man...not an invalid for chrissake. Why would he agree to this humiliating/degrading treatment for 2 months???

I cannot believe anything I read today. And I think, for once I am asking these very questions. Even though Murray bares the responsibility of MJ's death, I can't help but rethink his role in his own death. And that makes me very sad.

Conspiracy or not...he agreed to this treatment (no one will put a damn catheter with me agreeing 2 it) ... and remember he had been saying for years people wanted to kill him.

But he agreed to Murray doing this to him while his kids are sleeping in the house. I am appalled ...and very sad.

And he died alone...

God what a awful story...I cannot believe how MJ's life ended.

Why? He thought it was safe. I think Michael was so afraid of getting addicted to anything he was willing to put himself through this just to get some rest. Yes, Michael played a role in his death ESP if he was told this stuff was dangerous but Murray has his doctor should have said to Michael no man this is not good why don't we try to find you a sleep clinic so you can sleep there at night and they can figure out what your problem is. At this point I tend to think Michael had tried lots of things and none of it was working he was desperate. Desperate people do desperate things. I don't think any of us have ever been pushed to the extremes he was getting pushed to when it came to not sleeping

 

[Petrarose]

Why? He thought it was safe. I think Michael was so afraid of getting addicted to anything he was willing to put himself through this just to get some rest. Yes, Michael played a role in his deah ESP if he was told this stuff was dangerous but Murray has his doctor should have said to Michael no man this is not good why don't we try to find you a sleep clnic so you can sleep there at night and they can figure out what your problem is. At this point I tend to think Michael had tried lots of things and none of it was working he was desprate

I think so to. He must have been trying for years to get some good sleep. This issue did not begin in 09. I hope the thread will not be derailed to "Michael caused his death" though. Let us be careful about this (I am not talking about you Justthefacts).

 

[ivy]

I did the daily summary for day 2 from all the reports here

I know this is premature to say and we don't know the defense's hand yet but today it made me question the charges, it seems like they could have been higher.

 

[chanel05]

They describe it as attached, therefore, it was extensions that was attached to his head. Not a wig that you could put on and take off.

a lacefront wig is attached to your hair thats why it looks so real. a "normal" wig you just put over the top of your head. if he had extensions you would have seen his real hair at the roots and then the other hair on the end. i dnt know how fimiliar you are with hair and weaves/wigs

 

[mijaons]

Based on just two days testimony, it seems like he did everything he could to make sure no one was able to revive MJ. I don't think we've seen testimony as of yet to show he killed him intentionally, but I do believe based on the testimony thus far that he did intentionally ensure that no one was able to revive MJ, i.e. 1) not calling 911 right away, 2) not telling the paramedics or the hospital staff that he gave MJ propofol, 3) as was mentioned in a recent post he broke the IV/syringe in MJ's leg when the paramedics told him to use that same one to get MJ some ephedrine to start his heart.

Not knowing CPR, I can label that as incompetency, maybe even 3) above, but 1) and 2) can't just be attributed to incompetency. Even I would know to do 1) and 2) above. One can justifiably argue that that was intentional.

I hate to accuse anyone of something so severe, but I just can't grasp how an experienced doctor can be so incompetent. This whole thing just boggles my mind. His actions are beyond my comprehension.

Agree, how he could be this callous is beyond me! Michael must've been gone long before Murray could do anything. That is the only plausible explanation for his actions. Oh Michael, how could this have happened to you?

 

[Petrarose]

a lacefront wig is attached to your hair thats why it looks so real. a "normal" wig you just put over the top of your head. if he had extensions you would have seen his real hair at the roots and then the other hair on the end. i dnt know how fimiliar you are with hair and weaves/wigs

This is the last time I will take about a wig. I have a lacefront wig and it is not attached to my hair. I had blond extensions for Christmas and New Years to have a different look and that was attached to my hair. However, you are right I am not an expert. Since a wig did not kill Michael, I will leave it at that. Lets get back to the charges.

Ivy, hopefully once we hear more horrible facts, the charges might be increased. However, we want Murray to go to jail and based on what we have heard so far, he is definitely going to jail. I am really positive about this happening.

 

[chanel05]

As far as I remember (correct me if I am wrong) paramedics testified that it was a shower cap. And this is what does not make sense to me. This is why asked. It is a murder and this is why a detail like that could be important too. You never know.

maybe they said the wrong thing i dunno

 

[Milka]

true... even on a bad tooth of mine, the doctor suggested i try to save it and get a root canal instead of pulling it. i see where the other poster is coming from... he/she is looking at it from the aspect of the jury.

Well, if something like "he asked for it" comes up at the trial, the prosecutors have to make sure that the jury gets to hear this (= that it doesn't matter if he asked for it, doctors make those decisions, not the patients) from an expert witness. Same with the "drug addict" thing - because that would just be all the more reason not to give him ANYTHING.

Also, I remember how shocked I was last year in June when I read that he was given an anesthetic as treatment for insomnia (when did we get that info? June 26, I guess?). I knew right there and then that this was what killed him, because anesthetics can be very dangerous and a risk even during routine surgery. You don't use it the way Murray did. That alone was enough for me. At that point I didn't know anything about the timeline or not having the right (or any) equipment there or the "clean up" before the 911 call, hadn't heard about the doctor not knowing CPR and there was also no autopsy report yet. But I was 99 % sure that the Propofol was the COD and that the doctor would get in a lot of trouble just for giving it to him. And then add all the other stuff that we know now ... a jury would have to be completely dense not to come to the same conclusion as I did a day or two after his passing.