Medical experts opinions about the case and medical information

Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

Thanks Kasume! I want to hear Murray's excuses also for being on the phone for 45 minutes and for leaving his patient. Murray being a doctor should know you never leave a patient alone under anesthesia.
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

Dr. Murray was essentially enabling Jackson to use it like it was an over-the-counter pain reliever



The statement is above is so correct.. Murray is trying to shift blame but he's the one that used his medical license to obtain propofol and he's the one that allowed MJ to use it as a sleeping aid. For God's sakes he administered it knowing there was no medical purpose for it. How can Murray claim he's not responsible? and then on top of that he wasn't even monitoring his patient
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

I guess this will be the negligence charge.
the charge is IM.theres no seperate charge. negligence is the IM charge

I don't know if they ever said in fact that it was determined.
we need to stick to the facts in this section. there were comments in the AR about mj being visited in the evening and the signs or non signs of RM. which dont fit with a TOD of 9am and lividty can start anywhere between 20- mins to 3 hrs after death. so that doesnt help greatly
 
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Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

the facts are fucked up.

You want to believe the purposely circulated misinformation because you believe no one would do that, then go ahead.

But I'm sticking to statistical medical facts. Not the media.

Investigative Techniques to Determine Time of Death
http://www.studyworld.com/basementpapers/papers/stack12_14.html

Michael's Autopsy report (page 2)

are you taking the time of the examination into consideration?

"Lividity blanched with light pressure" means that it's at early stages and it means at least 4 hours (as lividity started to happen) and less than 6 hrs (as it's not yet permanent).

I think the examination was done at 6PM minus 4 -6 hrs brings the time frame to 12 to 2 PM.

Regardless of the time of death (whether you think it's 9 AM or 12 PM), I think that this shows that Michael was dead by the time paramedics were called or arrived.
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

something is blurry here...but wait, how long would it take for paramedics to arrive and for Michael to be PRESENTED to the ER.....

911 call was around 1200, lividity reported at 1800 under body examination (by the detective, NOT by ER doctors).

I don't think it would take nearly six hours for Michael to finally reach the ER though...

Michael presented to the ER in a state of lividity with indicators that AFTER death-MJ had been moved

The (ER docs) knew when they saw the state of lividity with the movement marks also that Mike had been dead for 5 hours -this is a statistical fact that it takes that amount of time for this to be possible.

We medical professionals know often much more than we let on in death calls because we are trained to assess our patient's status completely-all 7 systems-and skin (lividity and markings) is 1 system, on to new or advanced rigor etc.. plus everything present in the room-aside from what is expected to be seen-we note the things that would not normally be present-we call coroners and report our findings-if a natural death-I as the pro on scene-release with the coroner to family and then a mortuary can be called-Murray knew this is protocol in CA and that is why he insisted MJ be taken to the ER-so he was not the one calling the medical examiner because the situation was such that the coroner WOULD NOT release in this case and would have started a death investigation that exact moment and would have gone right to MJ's house.

That time marker of 5 hrs coincides with a 9AM (approximate) phone call from Murray to his LV office ordering 2 assistants to go to his archive files which were stored in a facility away from his LV practice offices -the 2 people in LV that went to the storage facility were seen carrying boxes away-so that is further collaborated.

Another odd fact which was found by the paramedics when in the room upstairs - the temperature was stifling hot-which would be the result of Murray having the heat on and turned up higher than people would normally ever want it to be-in the 90's-which prevents rigor mortis from setting in at the normal rate it will when the deceased body starts to cool down.

ill try and contact this person again and ask them about the detectives examination of the body afterwards, but i cant say ill be sucessful. and i believe it takes a certain amount of time for bruisings to appear a certain way.
 
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Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

something is blurry here...but wait, how long would it take for paramedics to arrive and for Michael to be PRESENTED to the ER.....

911 call was around 1200, lividity reported at 1800 under body examination (by the detective, NOT by ER doctors).

I don't think it would take nearly six hours for Michael to finally reach the ER though...

911 call was around 1200, paramedic arrival 1226. we heard that they spent 40 minutes at the house and there was 5-7 minutes drive to the hospital. so he would be at the hospital a little after 1300. He was pronounced dead at 1426. then he was transfered to the coroner's office.

btw ER doctors do not do examinations. it's not their job or specialty. it's done by the coroner. and if my memory doesn't fail me I think the examination is done by coroner investigator (not a detective) but he/she got information from detectives, am I wrong?
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

no, the ME i spoke to got their information from several people with firsthand knowledge. and plus this person knows things themself.


On page two of the autopsy report is states, "I performed an external body examination..."

On page three, it says, "upon my completion of the body examination at the hospital..."

And above that on Information Sources: It says DETECTIVES. Not any medical professional's at the ER who are trained to look at everything like the one I spoke to said, and also who know MUCH more than is often let on.

I'm not sure who examined that body though. Whether it was Porche or Smith. I believe it's Smith.

btw ER doctors do not do examinations. it's not their job or specialty. it's done by the coroner.

I'll stick with the info from the ME. And we are not talking about an autopsy here. We are talking about simple appearances on the body concerning death. lividity, rigor mortis, bruises etc.
 
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Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

On page two of the autopsy report is states, "I performed an external body examination..."

On page three, it says, "upon my completion of the body examination at the hospital..."

I'm not sure who examined that body though. Whether it was Porche or Smith. I believe it's Smith.

see page 4 for signature- Elissa Fleak - (coroner) Investigator. She's the one that's doing the investigation of the body and writing the report. All that "I" , "my" etc refers to her.

no, the ME i spoke to got their information from several people with firsthand knowledge. and plus this person knows things themself as they ALSO work with coroners and investigating teams. I'll stick with the info from the ME.

Like I said I too believe that Michael was dead at least by the time paramedics arrived - so we agree that Michael was dead before Murray ever acknowledged it and I hope that will be raised during the trial. I cannot comment on anything this ME says as I don't know who that's is and how reliable they are.
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

see page 4 for signature- Elissa Fleak - (coroner) Investigator. She's the one that's doing the investigation of the body and writing the report. All that "I" , "my" etc refers to her.

okay i see it. i was looking for a sig. its on the front page where i couldnt read it.
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

okay i see it. i was looking for a sig. its on the front page where i couldnt read it.

but you are also right that she gets some of her information that she mentions on the report from the detectives especially the part about Murray's actions and statements.
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

Do you think the prosecution will ask Murray if he told MJ that taking propofol for sleep was safe and ok? If Murray says that he didn't think it was safe then wouldn't that be enough to convict him? Because that would mean he knowingly and willingly gave his patient an unsafe treatment for sleep knowing what could happen yet he gave it anyway and then left him alone.
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

Do you think the prosecution will ask Murray if he told MJ that taking propofol for sleep was safe and ok? If Murray says that he didn't think it was safe then wouldn't that be enough to convict him? Because that would mean he knowingly and willingly gave his patient an unsafe treatment for sleep knowing what could happen yet he gave it anyway and then left him alone.

that would be admittance of negligence - condition of IVM - so I wouldn't expect that from Murray. However the DA could definitely argue that (as a doctor Murray knew propofol was dangerous and yet gave it)
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

that would be admittance of negligence - condition of IVM - so I wouldn't expect that from Murray. However the DA could definitely argue that (as a doctor Murray knew propofol was dangerous and yet gave it)

true and if Murray says he didn't think it would be dangerous then he definitely should get his license taken away. What doctor thinks anesthesia is ok as a sleep aid? His judgment and skill as a doctor would be questioned if he thinks anesthesia is fine as a sleep aid
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

They need to get the more basic questions out the way first. They need to ask that "cardiologist", "Did you at that time think CPR on a bed with one hand would be the correct way to save a dying person?"

I want to hear Murray's answer in court because his answer to that is VERY important.
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

They need to get the more basic questions out the way first. They need to ask that "cardiologist", "Did you at that time think CPR on a bed with one hand would be the correct way to save a dying person?"

I want to hear Murray's answer in court because his answer to that is VERY important.

I agree..
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

the facts are fucked up.

You want to believe the purposely circulated misinformation because you believe no one would do that, then go ahead.
the problem is your a conspiracy theorist. at this moment in time we have all the facts we do until the prelim and trial starts. then we will get to hear the facts and whether they are different to what is being discussed now. so untill that happens we can only go with the info we have. it is your opinion based on you being a conpriracy theorist that all the info we have is wrong. that may turn out to be true but at this point we have nothing else so will work around that until the case prelim starts. but dont be acting like all the info we have is B.S cause it doesnt suit your conspiracy theory and then have the audacity to attack others. youve stated false info about the livdity and TOD and ivy as stated the facts. info from sources is for the conspiracy section because your source wont come into play during the prelim and trial so is irrelevent
 
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Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

i'm looking forward to seeing that Murray b... behind the bars. i hope all the questions will be asked him in court because i want to see his face and hear his answers.

He isn't a doctor, no doctor does this to a person.

i pray and pray that he will live for years and years with full of sorrow, with full of bad dreams day and night and he will start to pray to die earlier. Our hearts with full of Michael love will make this life for him a nightmare because of our prayers. i hope he will see the deepest psychologically.

God always with innocents and our God is on our side. God will bring the best justice and we will see murray in the hell, i'm sure. but i want a hell also in this world for murray and want justice.

thank you for this thread,

with L.O.V.E.


ps:sorry for my poor English
 
I wish MJ would have never subject himself to this method in order to get sleep. Lord have mercy. Murray needs to fry in jail for doing this.
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

true and if Murray says he didn't think it would be dangerous then he definitely should get his license taken away. What doctor thinks anesthesia is ok as a sleep aid? His judgment and skill as a doctor would be questioned if he thinks anesthesia is fine as a sleep aid
Not only that, it is an ANESTHESIAOLOGIST who do this, NOt the doctor. This is why when you have surgery you get a hospital bill, a doctor bill, and a anesthesia medical bill.
 
Yesterday Murray was reported as saying that he was not wearing a watch on this particular day (Dr Nguyen's testimony...second to last of the day.).

1. If this is the case, how did he accurately set up an IV drip for propofol? How did he know the 'giving' rate (the delivery rate ie dose per time?). Is this why Michael received an overdose? (If the overdose was by IV drip rather than bolus?)

2. If he was not using a pulse monitor, (and he had no watch) how did he accurately monitor Michaels vital signs including pulse. Did the prosecution ever find evidence of records of monitoring of vital signs?
 
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Yesterday Murray was reported as saying that he was not wearing a watch on this particular day (Dr Nguyen's testimony...second to last of the day.).

1. If this is the case, how did he accurately set up an IV drip for propofol? How did he know the 'giving' rate (the delivery rate ie dose per time?). Is this why Michael received an overdose? (If the overdose was by IV drip rather than bolus?)

2. If he was not using a pulse monitor, (and he had no watch) how did he accurately monitor Michaels vital signs including pulse. Did the prosecution ever find evidence of records of monitoring of vital signs?

It's obvious Murray didn't monitor anything. He did everything by sight. He didn't have anything to monitor dosage or anything. It's absolutely insane.
 
What if the doctor gave propofol and lorazepam, and some other drug as a mixture at the same time? Like Michael didn't probably know at all he will have propofol then and he thought the doctor makes him sleep other way if the doctor convinced him? And that's why there were not any equipment because otherwise Michael would have seen it before going to sleep?
 
Re: Expert Anesthesiologist Thinks Dr. Conrad Murray Will Go To Jail

They need to get the more basic questions out the way first. They need to ask that "cardiologist", "Did you at that time think CPR on a bed with one hand would be the correct way to save a dying person?"

I want to hear Murray's answer in court because his answer to that is VERY important.

My question is: "Can the prosecution subpoena Murray as a witness? Can they force him to speak out?

Because we all know that michael didn't have to testify in 2005!
 
Ok here's my problem with the current situation. I know everyone is sort of making a big deal of the propofol use but i feel it is still being downplayed considering how horrendous this mistake was.

1: I feel that the fact that "Propofol" was used by this doctor OUTSIDE a hospital setting is being taken lightly and not seriously enough. I would have thought just proof of use of this drug would render his medical license invalid for the rest of his life. I am a doctor but i would never ever take chances with such a potentially dangerous drug with a very narrow index of safety(without proper monitoring)
There is something called a "sedation score" which the nurses usually keep in patients given sedatives which is essentially to make sure the patient doesn't get overdosed and stops breathing etc. It requires VERY meticulous and time specific monitoring of the patient. I can't believe that he gave MJ propofol and then had the time to even go to the loo.

2: A patient normally has no clue what "Propofol" is. It is a general anaesthetic and not a used for hypnosis primarily. Someone told MJ about it. I highly doubt he was able to google it. I suspect that someone was a doctor or a nurse. It is imperative that the person who suggested this drug as a sleep adjunct be found out and prosecuted separately for negligence.

3: There were additional sedatives in his system as well. Being a doctor myself, i am usually shit scared if i have to give a second sedative to someone and i instruct that the patient be monitored very closely. Any conscientious doctor would think long and hard before loading up a patient with multiple sedatives ESPECIALLY knowing that there wasn't adequate monitoring equipment on hand. He screwed up badly here.

4: Monitoring equipment. Unbelievable how he didn't have any. Sorry, but a simple pulse oximeter isn't going to give you all the information you need. The patient has to be on a Cardiac Monitor as well so his heart rhythm, rate and BP can be monitored. Propofol can cause changes in all these variables along with depressing breathing. How could he even think about administering the drug without all that equipment?

5: Intervention equipment. Equipment for intubation and resuscitation HAVE to be on hand. Laryngoscope, Endotracheal tube, Ambu bag, Ventilator, Oxygen source, Defibrillator etc are just some of the most important things that should have been present. I've seen propofol being used in surgeries and intensive care units and in all instances patients were connected to intensive monitoring equipment and were intubated(which means a machine was breathing for them).

6: Propofol is generally used as an inducer medication unless the surgery is really short. It is a very fast acting drug which wears out really quickly. Hence it can cause respiratory depression very very quickly because of it's quick onset of action. In intensive care units, they generally use it to instantaneously sedate the patient and only continue it when the patient requires sedation for a relatively small period when it's given as an infusion. When they want prolonged sedation they sometimes use other sedatives which act for a longer period of time and wear off slowly.
Now, if CM wanted to induce sleep he was taking a HUGE gamble because he was subjectively assessing MJ's sedation level after administering propofol. He was LOOKING at MJ to see how his breathing was. He couldn't tell what his heart rhythm etc was objectively. It was SO easy for him to miscalculate and overdose MJ especially since there are so many medications that sedatives can interact with. Why he would give propofol in the presence of other sedatives is beyond me but if he actually wanted to use propofol continuously(which i suspect he did) then his actions are beyond stupid. You HAVE to have certain propofol levels in the blood stream to keep the patient sedated. Not everyone responds the same to the same dose of propofol either. Calculations have to be made to cater for the weight of the patient. I think CM screwed up BADLY when calculating his dosages. He either didn't cater for MJ's weight or other medication that he had already given. Or, maybe, he just turned up the rate of propofol when he felt MJ wasn't responding to the propofol and then went away to make his calls. Either way, bad bad decisions.

7: Propofol is absolutely contraindicated in the presence of other Central nervous system depressant medication unless being administered in a hospital monitored setting because that INCREASES the efficacy and as an extension, the side effects of propofol.

8: His claim that he only gave 25mg of propofol sounds ridiculous because the levels of propofol in MJ's body indicate that the propofol had been given as an infusion at a higher dose and for a fair period of time. Definitely not as a single injection.

9: The claim that MJ self administered is a bit far fetched. Deaths by self administration have happened before but usually at therapeutic levels of the drug because as soon as the levels get high enough for sedation you fall asleep and can't fiddle with your dose anymore. The levels found in MJ's body were higher than those levels and the only way those could have been achieved were if he were to wake up somehow and turn the rate of the drip really high before getting sedated. It is highly unlikely though that that could have happened considering the drug's properties and in any case CM should have been there at the bedsise to make sure nothing of that sort happens which he is taking CARE of the patient and earning big bucks while doing it.

10: There is no antidote to Propofol unlike other opioids. The only management is, yep, supporting the heart and the breathing with the equipment i mentioned above till the patient loses all the propofol from the body. That makes it all the more apparent how unprepared the doctor was for any eventualities.

11: Presence of Lignocaine in the system. Now what was Lignocaine doing there? Who administered it? It's a local anaesthetic when used topically but an anti-arrhythmic when given IV. It also has the potential to cause abnormal heart rhythms on it's own. If it was given at UCLA then that's fine because it can be used for resuscitation if required but if it was administered prior to that by CM then i would like to hear his reasons for giving it.

Sorry for the long post guys. Just had to let some of my concerns out. Of course there's other stuff like time wasting, improper CPR and withholding information. All those things should be more than enough to get him at least a few years behind bars without question.
 
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Ok here's my problem with the current situation. I know everyone is sort of making a big deal of the propofol use but i feel it is still being downplayed considering how horrendous this mistake was.

1: I feel that the fact that "Propofol" was used by this doctor OUTSIDE a hospital setting is being taken lightly and not seriously enough. I would have thought just proof of use of this drug would render his medical license invalid for the rest of his life. I am a doctor but i would never ever take chances with such a potentially dangerous drug with a very narrow index of safety(without proper monitoring)
There is something called a "sedation score" which the nurses usually keep in patients given sedatives which is essentially to make sure the patient doesn't get overdosed and stops breathing etc. It requires VERY meticulous and time specific monitoring of the patient. I can't believe that he gave MJ propofol and then had the time to even go to the loo.

2: A patient normally has no clue what "Propofol" is. It is a general anaesthetic and not a used for hypnosis primarily. Someone told MJ about it. I highly doubt he was able to google it. I suspect that someone was a doctor or a nurse. It is imperative that the person who suggested this drug as a sleep adjunct be found out and prosecuted separately for negligence.

3: There were additional sedatives in his system as well. Being a doctor myself, i am usually shit scared if i have to give a second sedative to someone and i instruct that the patient be monitored very closely. Any conscientious doctor would think long and hard before loading up a patient with multiple sedatives ESPECIALLY knowing that there wasn't adequate monitoring equipment on hand. He screwed up badly here.

4: Monitoring equipment. Unbelievable how he didn't have any. Sorry, but a simple pulse oximeter isn't going to give you all the information you need. The patient has to be on a Cardiac Monitor as well so his heart rhythm, rate and BP can be monitored. Propofol can cause changes in all these variables along with depressing breathing. How could he even think about administering the drug without all that equipment?

5: Intervention equipment. Equipment for intubation and resuscitation HAVE to be on hand. Laryngoscope, Endotracheal tube, Ambu bag, Ventilator, Oxygen source, Defibrillator etc are just some of the most important things that should have been present. I've seen propofol being used in surgeries and intensive care units and in all instances patients were connected to intensive monitoring equipment and were intubated(which means a machine was breathing for them).

6: Propofol is generally used as an inducer medication unless the surgery is really short. It is a very fast acting drug which wears out really quickly. Hence it can cause respiratory depression very very quickly because of it's quick onset of action. In intensive care units, they generally use it to instantaneously sedate the patient and only continue it when the patient requires sedation for a relatively small period when it's given as an infusion. When they want prolonged sedation they sometimes use other sedatives which act for a longer period of time and wear off slowly.
Now, if CM wanted to induce sleep he was taking a HUGE gamble because he was subjectively assessing MJ's sedation level after administering propofol. He was LOOKING at MJ to see how his breathing was. He couldn't tell what his heart rhythm etc was objectively. It was SO easy for him to miscalculate and overdose MJ especially since there are so many medications that sedatives can interact with. Why he would give propofol in the presence of other sedatives is beyond me but if he actually wanted to use propofol continuously(which i suspect he did) then his actions are beyond stupid. You HAVE to have certain propofol levels in the blood stream to keep the patient sedated. Not everyone responds the same to the same dose of propofol either. Calculations have to be made to cater for the weight of the patient. I think CM screwed up BADLY when calculating his dosages. He either didn't cater for MJ's weight or other medication that he had already given. Or, maybe, he just turned up the rate of propofol when he felt MJ wasn't responding to the propofol and then went away to make his calls. Either way, bad bad decisions.

7: Propofol is absolutely contraindicated in the presence of other Central nervous system depressant medication unless being administered in a hospital monitored setting because that INCREASES the efficacy and as an extension, the side effects of propofol.

8: His claim that he only gave 25mg of propofol sounds ridiculous because the levels of propofol in MJ's body indicate that the propofol had been given as an infusion at a higher dose and for a fair period of time. Definitely not as a single injection.

9: The claim that MJ self administered is a bit far fetched. Deaths by self administration have happened before but usually at therapeutic levels of the drug because as soon as the levels get high enough for sedation you fall asleep and can't fiddle with your dose anymore. The levels found in MJ's body were higher than those levels and the only way those could have been achieved were if he were to wake up somehow and turn the rate of the drip really high before getting sedated. It is highly unlikely though that that could have happened considering the drug's properties and in any case CM should have been there at the bedsise to make sure nothing of that sort happens which he is taking CARE of the patient and earning big bucks while doing it.

10: There is no antidote to Propofol unlike other opioids. The only management is, yep, supporting the heart and the breathing with the equipment i mentioned above till the patient loses all the propofol from the body. That makes it all the more apparent how unprepared the doctor was for any eventualities.

11: Presence of Lignocaine in the system. Now what was Lignocaine doing there? Who administered it? It's a local anaesthetic when used topically but an anti-arrhythmic when given IV. It also has the potential to cause abnormal heart rhythms on it's own. If it was given at UCLA then that's fine because it can be used for resuscitation if required but if it was administered prior to that by CM then i would like to hear his reasons for giving it.

Sorry for the long post guys. Just had to let some of my concerns out. Of course there's other stuff like time wasting, improper CPR and withholding information. All those things should be more than enough to get him at least a few years behind bars without question.

When we sedate patients for diagnostic purpouses (usually doesn't last longer than an hour), we only use a pulse oximeter as well. It is enough when you just sedate the patient. However, we always have an anesthesiologist and a nurse present. And we ALWAYS have intubation gear, emergency drugs, suction, and anything else you might need in an emergency, close by. If the patent is sedated for some small "surgery" or something where a doctor is needed, then the one sedating the patient is NEVER the one to do the procedure...so in that case you have the doctor for the procedure, the anesthesiologist, and usually at least one or two nurses there. The patient always gets extra oxygen with an oxygen mask throughout the sedation . But again, the patient is only monitored with a pulse oximeter.

Lignocaine...I take it you mean Lidocaine? That is used with Propofol so that the Propofol doesn't burn. If you give Propofol into a CVC (central line), you won't need Lidocaine, but if you give it into an i.v. you usually always use Lidocaine to prevent the burning sensation.
 
When we sedate patients for diagnostic purpouses (usually doesn't last longer than an hour), we only use a pulse oximeter as well. It is enough when you just sedate the patient. However, we always have an anesthesiologist and a nurse present. And we ALWAYS have intubation gear, emergency drugs, suction, and anything else you might need in an emergency, close by. If the patent is sedated for some small "surgery" or something where a doctor is needed, then the one sedating the patient is NEVER the one to do the procedure...so in that case you have the doctor for the procedure, the anesthesiologist, and usually at least one or two nurses there. The patient always gets extra oxygen with an oxygen mask throughout the sedation . But again, the patient is only monitored with a pulse oximeter.

Lignocaine...I take it you mean Lidocaine? That is used with Propofol so that the Propofol doesn't burn. If you give Propofol into a CVC (central line), you won't need Lidocaine, but if you give it into an i.v. you usually always use Lidocaine to prevent the burning sensation.
thank you summer...this is exactly the way it wa when I had to have propofol for a couple of proceedures..:)
 
2: A patient normally has no clue what "Propofol" is. It is a general anaesthetic and not a used for hypnosis primarily. Someone told MJ about it. I highly doubt he was able to google it. I suspect that someone was a doctor or a nurse. It is imperative that the person who suggested this drug as a sleep adjunct be found out and prosecuted separately for negligence.

the ER doctor said now in the preliminary hearing they use propofol in the ER for serious injury...so I suspect that during the 2005 trial after Michael fell and hurt himself badly, the doctors from the ER introduced him to this substance...but you can not blame them because in that case it was need it and the supervision was strict so nothing bad could happen.but it is not the same case with Murray that left Michael alone!
 
2: A patient normally has no clue what "Propofol" is. It is a general anaesthetic and not a used for hypnosis primarily. Someone told MJ about it. I highly doubt he was able to google it. I suspect that someone was a doctor or a nurse. It is imperative that the person who suggested this drug as a sleep adjunct be found out and prosecuted separately for negligence.

the ER doctor said now in the preliminary hearing they use propofol in the ER for serious injury...so I suspect that during the 2005 trial after Michael fell and hurt himself badly, the doctors from the ER introduced him to this substance...but you can not blame them because in that case it was need it and the supervision was strict so nothing bad could happen.but it is not the same case with Murray that left Michael alone!

It is also used for minor surgery like dental sugery
also dermatologists can use to sedate patients for
cosmetic injections _ Its the most safest and effective
anisthestic and the effect wear off quiclky.

BUt should only be given with an anisethiologist present
to monitor heart rate vital signs and keep patient breathing.
Dr Murray did not of that and even left the room_ that was
very dangerous move on top of not having an anistethiologist
shows disregaurd for human life.

Michael knew what he was using.
That doesnt absolve Murrray in any way for how he administered it
and the lack of care ptovided for Michaels life while he was under the effects
of propoful. Murrays direct actions killed Michael and then he was a coward
and tried to cover his actions unsucsessfully.
 
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When we sedate patients for diagnostic purpouses (usually doesn't last longer than an hour), we only use a pulse oximeter as well. It is enough when you just sedate the patient. However, we always have an anesthesiologist and a nurse present. And we ALWAYS have intubation gear, emergency drugs, suction, and anything else you might need in an emergency, close by. If the patent is sedated for some small "surgery" or something where a doctor is needed, then the one sedating the patient is NEVER the one to do the procedure...so in that case you have the doctor for the procedure, the anesthesiologist, and usually at least one or two nurses there. The patient always gets extra oxygen with an oxygen mask throughout the sedation . But again, the patient is only monitored with a pulse oximeter.

Lignocaine...I take it you mean Lidocaine? That is used with Propofol so that the Propofol doesn't burn. If you give Propofol into a CVC (central line), you won't need Lidocaine, but if you give it into an i.v. you usually always use Lidocaine to prevent the burning sensation.

You're right. It is usually good enough when you've got an experienced team with well defined roles around and the sedation is relatively mild plus of short duration. What i meant to say was, sedating with propofol over a period of hours while he was administering other sedatives as well meant that a pulse oximeter alone was probably not good enough. It doesn't tell you anything other than the Oxygen saturation. Everything else is subjective assessment which is ok if you've got a team around and the means to do something quickly if something happens.
If he did have the Oximeter on why couldn't he tell when the saturations dropped? I bet he didn't even use it in the first place.

Lignocaine is the same as Lidocaine and you're right, it is used as an adjunct with Propofol to decrease the pain during infusion through periphal access as was the case with MJ. For some reason it didn't cross my mind that he didn't have a central line in :D
Does anyone know what the levels of Lidocaine/Lignocaine were? I wouldn't expect them to be high but who knows.
 
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