Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I hear you. We all love Michael. Everyone here loves Michael. If not, we won't be debating this issue so passionately.

Incredibly well said. Everyday at school I have to put up with so much abuse because of my love of MJ, but he was there when nobody else was. His music, his films, it all helped me through some horrible times in my life, and I try to share that with my school, but it always backfires at me. I'm actually thinking of trying to throw a concert during an assembly. Though this is off-topic, can anyone help me create a set-list? The only one I have right now is "Dangerous Criminal" ("What-If" "Dangerous" - This Is It version and "Smooth Criminal" This Is It version). I only have time for 3-4 songs.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Uhh Jesta... that last half of your post, what the heck? LOL :D You are silly, my friend!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I know I am, but I love dancing to his music so much, and MJ has taught me to not let people get me down, no matter how hard they try. I guess I crave to dance on that stage because... I want to dance through the hate with a smile on my face.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Oh, so you want to do a dance at school! Sorry, I was having a hard time understanding. :D Sounds great! I think you need to choose the songs yourself, because only you can feel the ones that would be right for you to do. Whichever makes you dance the most and feel the best. I think HIStory would be a great song to do a dance to. :) Especially one of the remixes.

Sorry, back on topic... Jason Malachi, No, Michael, No... Jason.... Malachael........
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

That's OK! :D Hmm... I could do Tony Moran's HIStory Lesson, but only the 4 minute edit (I only have 20 minutes to work with!) I'd also love to do "Ghost" because I just love the Gallop!!!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

You might be interested to know that Malachi is now posting his own comparisons through his website (jasonmalachi.us). He mixed his own songs with snippets from KYHU and BN.

He said the truth was about to be revealed and now he is saying it

It's not Jason posting on his website.

I talked with Jason's Manager Thad Nauden and I have confirmed for a fact that a few of Jason's sites and e-mails have been hacked. I'll let you know more up to the minute information and details as I get it. (Special Thanks to Thad Nauden for responding to my information request)
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I don't need you to explain anything to me. I'm very enlightened in the area of production thank you, however, your argument is hard to swallow due to the fact that the tracks were completed and put on an album, they weren't listed as demos on the cd....if the production work on the dubbing was poorly handled it should have been corrected. As you know, tracks are not flat media, they are layered and can be retooled so if they improperly produced it post recording on the vocal then
It shouldn't have been released. In terms of JMs production verses the casicos...of course the quality would be different.... The casicos didnt work on jMs work, jMs people did...the crap production on the casico tracks are becaus of the casicos.


Having said all that my ears are very well trained to mJs voice and nothing but a video of mj singing those songs will make me believe that voice came out of his mouth.


The statement from his manager, stating his client didn't sing a single note on the album. If you want to believe this statement wasn't on the behalf of Jason, be my guest, but that would be highly unlikely.

If you can't listen to a song, and tell it's incomplete then it's not much I can explain to you, unless you have experience in recording and producing music. Some of these songs, have the wrong over-dubbings, meaning, for example in a song like Stay, there's a over-dubbing for the line "in case you change your mind", it's incorrectly over-dubbed with the vocal from the last line, instead of doubling with "change your mind", it's over layered with "Say goodbye", it's an obvious mistake in the production.

Here's another, when certain lyrics don't seem to make sense, can be another sign the song had the intention's of being re-worked, "When you left with all your dreams, I couldn't say goodnight"? That whole line alone implies the intention of it being re-worded at a later date, certain wording may have been rearranged in later drafts of the song.

All I Need only has one complete verse, only thing that differs is the two lines in the second, then it begins to repeat.


Like I said, it may be difficult for you to understand, unless you have experience in recording, producing, and the mastering of vocals. And yes, while Malachi's own songs make be lacking the production that Michael's had, they're still completed songs, his vocals are properly mastered, there's no wrong over-dubs, and the songs are complete. For the life of me, I can't figure out why Sony would bring this guy in, only to half ass the production and send him on his way with a confidentiality agreement. Everything I just said is a plausible explanation regarding the authenticity of these recordings.



Where's the source?
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Sorry, back on topic... Jason Malachi, No, Michael, No... Jason.... Malachael........

:bugeyed Don't you DARE

lol
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I'm siding with the family that it's not MJs voice on those tracks, that's all I'll say.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Yes, I agree....them, and my ears :D
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Funny how Jason is supposedly a deputy sheriff? And this would be very criminal, and obviously he'd be the biggest focus of media attention if the conspiracy ever came out to be true.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

i feel like Breaking News and Monster and Keep Your Head Up were in total demo form... just how In The Back was when it was released on the boxset.. MJ had the melody and a few lyrics here n there, but it was clearly nowhere near completed (even tho MJ felt comfortable enough to publicly release it on The Ultimate Collection)...

im thinking that the estate/cascios/sony felt that they needed to be completed (for SOME reason) and took notes and melodies MJ had hummed over a track, sprinkled with a few lyrics here n there, and decided to create a full blown out track.. the only thing i believe MJ had actually completed (vocally) on Breaking News is the chorus ("why is it strange...etc") and that he just hummed the verses... so someone brought in a vocal sound-a-like to fill in the gaps..

same with Keep Your Head Up...

even more so with Monster.. the verses sound like they were formed from a hummed/mumbled demo track..

i think it's possible they'll leave the cascio tracks alone from now on tho.. at least for a long time...

-Dal
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Once again, it was confirmed the page was still being hacked at the time. Jason even posted on his myspace page "my facebook has been hacked, I haven't said any of what is being said on that page". Why do you keep bringing this up?

nm .
 
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Explaining Cascio songs registration information

Type of Work: Sound Recording and Music

First let's define what's a sound recording is

Definition from the copyright law, 17 U.S.C. 101: A work resulting from the fixation of a series of musical or other sounds, but not including the sounds accompanying a motion picture or other audiovisual work. Common examples include recordings of music, drama, or lectures.

Now let's define "music"

Definition From Compendium of Copyright Office Practices, sections 401 - 403.01: Musical compositions are original music, including any accompanying lyrics; also, original arrangements or other derivative versions of earlier musical compositions to which new copyrightable authorship has been added. Music is generally defined as a succession of pitches or rhythms, or both, usually in some definite pattern. Musical works are registrable without regard to aesthetic standards.

Furthermore see the authorship part of the registration: Michael Joseph Jackson. James Porte, Edward Cascio: sound recording, performance, production, compilation, lyrics

From the "sound recordings" form to learn about the details of authorship.

Sound recording authorship is the performance, sound production, or both, that is fixed in the recording deposited for registration. Describe this authorship in space 2 as “sound recording.” If the claim also covers the underlying work(s), include the appropriate authorship terms for each author, for example, “words,” “music,” “arrangement of music,” or “text.”

Let's differentiate between sound recording and musical compositions

A musical composition consists of music, including any accompanying words, and is normally registered as a work of the performing arts. The author of a musical composition is generally the composer, and the lyricist, if any. A musical composition may be in the form of a notated copy (for example, sheet music) or in the form of a phonorecord (for example, cassette tape, LP, or CD). Sending a musical composition in the form of a phonorecord does not necessarily mean that there is a claim to copyright in the sound recording.

so music composition is mainly for the lyrics and notes and it doesn't cover the sound recordings.

A sound recording results from the fixation of a series of musical, spoken, or other sounds. The author of a sound recording is the performer(s) whose performance is fixed, or the record producer who processes the sounds and fixes them in the final recording, or both.
Copyright in a sound recording is not the same as, or a substitute for, copyright in the underlying musical composition


As we can all see that the registration wasn't for lyrics only and it included music and sounds as well. If it was lyrics only the registration type will be "music composition" only, "sound recording" shows that there was accompanying music and spoken sounds and "performer" shows that MJ, Porte and Cascio were the ones who performed those sounds.

Now let's learn what is needed for copyright registration

An application for copyright registration contains three essential elements: a completed application form, a nonrefundable filing fee, and a nonreturnable deposit—that is, a copy or copies of the work being registered and deposited” with the Copyright Office

Switching to the "sound recordings" form to learn what kind of deposit(copies of work) is needed for sound recordings.

An application for copyright registration must be accompanied by a deposit consisting of phonorecords representing the entire work for which registration is to be made. Unpublished Work: Deposit one complete phonorecord.

double checking it with Sound recording / musical composition registration information form

what is being registered : Musical composition and sound recording
what the author has created : Music and sound recording or Music, words, and sound recording
what should be deposited unpublished works: 1 complete phonorecord (disc or cassette)


(side note : Definition of phonorecord : phonorecord is the physical object in which works of authorship are embodied. The word “phonorecord” includes cassette tapes, CDs, and vinyl disks as well as other formats.)

Is electronicly sending copies of the work possible : Yes "If you file an application for copyright registration online using eCO, you may in some cases attach an electronic copy of your deposit

We learned that for a copyright registration of a sound recording and musical composition an audio copy of the whole work has to be submitted.


Registration Number / Date: SRu000911714 / 2009-06-27

A copyright registration is effective on the date the Copy*right Office receives all required elements in acceptable form, regardless of how long it takes to process the application and mail the certificate of registration.

So June 27 is the date they received the application form, the registration fee and the deposit (copy) of the whole works being registered.

Application Title: MJ Song Book 2009 #1.

Unpublished Collections
Under the following conditions, a work may be registered in unpublished form as a “collection,” with one application form and one fee:
• The elements of the collection are assembled in an
orderly form;
• The combined elements bear a single title identifying the
collection as a whole
;
• The copyright claimant in all the elements and in the col*lection as a whole is the same; and
• All the elements are by the same author, or, if they are by different authors, at least one of the authors has contributed copyrightable authorship to each element.


what we learned - if the unpublished works have the same authors you can register it with a single title by using one application form and one fee.

Description: Electronic file (eService)

This basically shows that e electronic Copyright Office (eCO) is used.

source: copyright basics

source: sound recording registration form

source : Information about sound recordings and musical compositions registrations
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

[youtube]QSLov7zYrSc[/youtube]

Enough said, but if you want more....

1. Evidence (or lack thereof)

There is NO evidence that Michael sang the Cascio songs. None. If it was OBVIOUSLY him on the songs, this wouldn't matter. Since it's not obviously him, more evidence is required. Yet there is none. When faced with this accusation, what would you do? I'd provide the evidence. ESPECIALLY when given the opportunity to do so on a TV show watched by millions of people, like Oprah. Yet they failed to do so. No video footage of the songs being recorded, or even footage of Michael just standing in their studio. No outtake vocals. No adlibs. No lyric sheets or any notes written with Michael's handwriting. Teddy Riley's excuse is that the vocals are heavily processed. If this is the case, where are the original unprocessed vocals? Tarryl asked for them and was told "the computer broke", and "the hard drive was destroyed". Does this sound likely? If this were Michael on the songs, there would be NUMEROUS ways to prove it. Again, they have failed to provide a single piece of evidence.

2. Motives for lying

Either Eddie Cascio and Teddy Riley are lying, or 3T, Darkchild and Cory Rooney are. There's no other alternative. Eddie's motive is clear. So is Riley's. MONEY. They were paid a significant amount for these songs. Teddy in particular is in need of it, having had no significant production work in recent history, and filing for bankruptcy a few years ago, and having being forced to sell his house and many of his belongings to pay tax bills to avoid being sent to prison. This is all well documented. His studio also "burnt down" which was clearly an insurance scam, as it was about be foreclosed on due to unpaid bills. Eddie's other motive is fame and opportunity. What's the likelihood that a completely unknown producer with no prior credits would have the opportunity to work with the likes of Orianthi and 50 Cent (who both appear on "Monster"), or share production credits with the award winning Tricky Stewart, who is responsible for a string of hits including Rihanna's "Umbrella"? The answer is, slim to none.

Now, let's contrast that with the possibility that 3T are lying. What do they have to gain from lying? The answer is... NOTHING. It doesn't make any difference to their lives. They only seek to protect their beloved Uncle's legacy. They have nothing to gain. Their Uncle was the hero and their idol. They actually HAVE been in the studio with him, as he co-produced their "Brotherhood" album and sang on two songs. They know what their uncle's vocals sound like, and they are aware of all the evidence that WOULD be available from a REAL MJ recording session, because they've shared recording sessions with him. Darkchild and Cory Rooney also have nothing to gain from lying.

3. The alleged meeting and forensic report

Howard Weitzman claims a forensic report was done. These reports have not been publically released. Why not? If a report was indeed done, why should we trust his word on the outcome of it? It would be easy to release these reports if they are real. The fact that Weitzman says a report was done means nothing. If I sat her and told you all the sky was neon spotted pink and yellow, what would you do? Believe me? Or ask for proof? If something is questionable, you provide proof. Something both the Cascios and Howard Weitzman have failed to do.

So, moving on to the alleged meeting. Weitzman says that Dr Freeze, Bruce Swedien, Teddy Riley et al all met and agreed the vocals were Michael. However, we have not heard from ANY of these people directly, bar Riley. So again, we're expected to take Weitzman's word without ANY proof that this was the case. Furthermore - Cory Rooney was AT THAT MEETING and he says that they did NOT all agree that the vocals were authentic.

Objective Analysis

The vocal tone, pronunciation, and strength of these Cascio vocals are not consistent with ANYTHING else ever recorded by Michael Jackson in over 40 years. They are not even consistent with other songs recorded in the SAME timeframe or afterwards, like "Best Of Joy" or "Hold My Hand". There isn't a single authentic, original Michael Jackson vocal trademark in any of these songs. All of these songs come from the same source, as the other 7 songs on the album are quite obviously Michael.

There is no excuse for why the vocals don't sound like Michael. I personally have recorded in everything from the most basic budget home studio, to the biggest recording studios in the world, you can compare tracks I've recorded in different settings and it's always CLEARLY the same person. So that whole "these songs were recorded in a budget studio" excuse does NOT wash. It's invalid. Also invalid is the attempt to pass them off as "demos". We've heard scores of real demos by Michael, and it's always obviously him.

There is no evidence at all to support a claim of it being Michael. NONE. The people responsible for these songs have a clear motive to lie. The people close to Michael who have publically stated it's NOT him on those songs have NO reason to lie. Finally - I'm a professional vocalist and producer, signed to a major label, and I make my living using my ears. I know the capabilities and extent of every vocal processing plugin you could possibly think of. None of them could make the most identifiable voice, the most famous voice that has ever existed, sound like an entirely different person. Some of you guys can sit behind your Fruity Loops and call yourself producers or artists, but I have the credits to back it up, with releases that have sold hundreds of thousands of records and songs in Hollywood movies and million+ selling video games from the likes of EA Sports. What I'm saying by bringing this up is that, if you want to come at me with that weak ass "budget studio" or "vocal processing" argument, the fact is that I likely know a GREAT DEAL more than you on these subjects.

I've listened to Michael damn near every day since 1989. Released, unreleased, acapella, remix, rare, interview, speech, whatever you can think of, I've heard all of it. My PERSONAL opinion is that it is quite blatantly NOT Michael Jackson singing these Cascio songs.

However, ignoring my personal opinion - if you look at all the points I've presented above - hell, you could present those points in a court of law - the ONLY POSSIBLE unbiased, objective conclusion you can possibly come to, taking all evidence and analysis to hand - again - is that it's NOT him singing these songs.

Peace.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

THANK YOU! I love you for writing that. It just boggles me that people listen to that voice and say it's Michael....but actually I'm not that surprised. A long long time ago when the net first started this girl was convinced Michael was singing "Debbie" as in Rowe on TWYMMF ... From then I knew that some of Michaels fan were .... Special .... And would fight nail in tooth for something they thought was real when cleary it wasn't.

High five On all your points.

[youtube]QSLov7zYrSc[/youtube]

Enough said, but if you want more....

1. Evidence (or lack thereof)

There is NO evidence that Michael sang the Cascio songs. None. If it was OBVIOUSLY him on the songs, this wouldn't matter. Since it's not obviously him, more evidence is required. Yet there is none. When faced with this accusation, what would you do? I'd provide the evidence. ESPECIALLY when given the opportunity to do so on a TV show watched by millions of people, like Oprah. Yet they failed to do so. No video footage of the songs being recorded, or even footage of Michael just standing in their studio. No outtake vocals. No adlibs. No lyric sheets or any notes written with Michael's handwriting. Teddy Riley's excuse is that the vocals are heavily processed. If this is the case, where are the original unprocessed vocals? Tarryl asked for them and was told "the computer broke", and "the hard drive was destroyed". Does this sound likely? If this were Michael on the songs, there would be NUMEROUS ways to prove it. Again, they have failed to provide a single piece of evidence.

2. Motives for lying

Either Eddie Cascio and Teddy Riley are lying, or 3T, Darkchild and Cory Rooney are. There's no other alternative. Eddie's motive is clear. So is Riley's. MONEY. They were paid a significant amount for these songs. Teddy in particular is in need of it, having had no significant production work in recent history, and filing for bankruptcy a few years ago, and having being forced to sell his house and many of his belongings to pay tax bills to avoid being sent to prison. This is all well documented. His studio also "burnt down" which was clearly an insurance scam, as it was about be foreclosed on due to unpaid bills. Eddie's other motive is fame and opportunity. What's the likelihood that a completely unknown producer with no prior credits would have the opportunity to work with the likes of Orianthi and 50 Cent (who both appear on "Monster"), or share production credits with the award winning Tricky Stewart, who is responsible for a string of hits including Rihanna's "Umbrella"? The answer is, slim to none.

Now, let's contrast that with the possibility that 3T are lying. What do they have to gain from lying? The answer is... NOTHING. It doesn't make any difference to their lives. They only seek to protect their beloved Uncle's legacy. They have nothing to gain. Their Uncle was the hero and their idol. They actually HAVE been in the studio with him, as he co-produced their "Brotherhood" album and sang on two songs. They know what their uncle's vocals sound like, and they are aware of all the evidence that WOULD be available from a REAL MJ recording session, because they've shared recording sessions with him. Darkchild and Cory Rooney also have nothing to gain from lying.

3. The alleged meeting and forensic report

Howard Weitzman claims a forensic report was done. These reports have not been publically released. Why not? If a report was indeed done, why should we trust his word on the outcome of it? It would be easy to release these reports if they are real. The fact that Weitzman says a report was done means nothing. If I sat her and told you all the sky was neon spotted pink and yellow, what would you do? Believe me? Or ask for proof? If something is questionable, you provide proof. Something both the Cascios and Howard Weitzman have failed to do.

So, moving on to the alleged meeting. Weitzman says that Dr Freeze, Bruce Swedien, Teddy Riley et al all met and agreed the vocals were Michael. However, we have not heard from ANY of these people directly, bar Riley. So again, we're expected to take Weitzman's word without ANY proof that this was the case. Furthermore - Cory Rooney was AT THAT MEETING and he says that they did NOT all agree that the vocals were authentic.

Objective Analysis

The vocal tone, pronunciation, and strength of these Cascio vocals are not consistent with ANYTHING else ever recorded by Michael Jackson in over 40 years. They are not even consistent with other songs recorded in the SAME timeframe or afterwards, like "Best Of Joy" or "Hold My Hand". There isn't a single authentic, original Michael Jackson vocal trademark in any of these songs. All of these songs come from the same source, as the other 7 songs on the album are quite obviously Michael.

There is no excuse for why the vocals don't sound like Michael. I personally have recorded in everything from the most basic budget home studio, to the biggest recording studios in the world, you can compare tracks I've recorded in different settings and it's always CLEARLY the same person. So that whole "these songs were recorded in a budget studio" excuse does NOT wash. It's invalid. Also invalid is the attempt to pass them off as "demos". We've heard scores of real demos by Michael, and it's always obviously him.

There is no evidence at all to support a claim of it being Michael. NONE. The people responsible for these songs have a clear motive to lie. The people close to Michael who have publically stated it's NOT him on those songs have NO reason to lie. Finally - I'm a professional vocalist and producer, signed to a major label, and I make my living using my ears. I know the capabilities and extent of every vocal processing plugin you could possibly think of. None of them could make the most identifiable voice, the most famous voice that has ever existed, sound like an entirely different person. Some of you guys can sit behind your Fruity Loops and call yourself producers or artists, but I have the credits to back it up, with releases that have sold hundreds of thousands of records and songs in Hollywood movies and million+ selling video games from the likes of EA Sports. What I'm saying by bringing this up is that, if you want to come at me with that weak ass "budget studio" or "vocal processing" argument, the fact is that I likely know a GREAT DEAL more than you on these subjects.

I've listened to Michael damn near every day since 1989. Released, unreleased, acapella, remix, rare, interview, speech, whatever you can think of, I've heard all of it. My PERSONAL opinion is that it is quite blatantly NOT Michael Jackson singing these Cascio songs.

However, ignoring my personal opinion - if you look at all the points I've presented above - hell, you could present those points in a court of law - the ONLY POSSIBLE unbiased, objective conclusion you can possibly come to, taking all evidence and analysis to hand - again - is that it's NOT him singing these songs.

Peace.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^^ i feel your frustration. i do. i wish we didn't have to keep going around in circles, but i can't let this go. it's too insulting, horrifying, depressing . . .

i understand that as fans, we've been lied to, and it's hard to ignore what is undoubtedly a strong desire to believe these tracks are real.

and i do KNOW that the "believers" truly think these tracks are legit. but we're equally sure that they're not.

you brought up great points. my eyes are open. i've known from the second i heard BN, when my heart literally dropped. every day i become more sure it's not him--for a lot of the reasons you mentioned above. i wish this hadn't happened.

@jaxxxon what part did she think he said "debbie" at? just curious . . . "you knock me off of my feet now baby"?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Yes summergirl, that part.... She was convinced of it! And so were some of te other fans.

We're a special lot us mj fans.....even some of the nary reaction to mj's family members .... Sometimes were passionate for all the wrong reasons..... Like those bieber fans threating to kill that one girl he was kissing....that's how some of mj's fans are...but that's how it goes....there are a lot of good ones though and that's the only reason I've stuck around online..

^^ i feel your frustration. i do. i wish we didn't have to keep going around in circles, but i can't let this go. it's too insulting, horrifying, depressing . . .

i understand that as fans, we've been lied to, and it's hard to ignore what is undoubtedly a strong desire to believe these tracks are real.

and i do KNOW that the "believers" truly think these tracks are legit. but we're equally sure that they're not.

you brought up great points. my eyes are open. i've known from the second i heard BN, when my heart literally dropped. every day i become more sure it's not him--for a lot of the reasons you mentioned above. i wish this hadn't happened.

@jaxxxon what part did she think he said "debbie" at? just curious . . . "you knock me off of my feet now baby"?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Yeah, the falsetto yoghurt is great. Two examples.

Tons of reasons why Teddy might want money, even though he stated several times that he had just done it for Michael, but Eddie you don't list as many reasons for. How would Eddie know who Sony and the Estate would want to produce the tracks beforehand?

Also, Casey R, step off your high horse. You assume other people claiming to be producers and artists are using Fruity Loops and aren't as worthy and intelligent as your highness. Very arrogant sounding, but other than that you bring up some great points.
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Very well said Casey R..Thanks for posting that! Fantastic!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Casey is not on a high horse, he just had to reality check these people with practical reasoning.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Indeed, I think the points Casey R brings up are better than the Falsetto Yoghurt video, which doesn't do a very good job at proving it to me.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Casey is not on a high horse, he just had to reality check these people with practical reasoning.

Thanks, jaXXXon. You're right, that's exactly what I was trying to do.

Aniram, first of all Eddie sold the tracks to the Estate regardless of who they wanted to work on them, but it's pretty obvious they would want "names".

And, my point was that it's too damn easy for anyone to sit here and claim that they have some sort of special expertise for reasons x, y, z. But just like the Cascio's, without proof it's completely worthless. I've worked with many major labels including Sony who I was signed to in 2005-2006. I actually make my living from this and my credits speak for themself, as the people here who know me know, and as I can provide if anybody (for any reason) wants to doubt my word. Recently I've been working in Metalworks Studio, also known as the studio where Prince recorded his Grammy winning "Musicology", also where Drake recorded his album, and where Black Eyed Peas, Katy Perry and the Jonas Brothers have recently been using. I've seen many people here claim to know about production or to have some level of experience, but I'd bet that most, if not the VAST majority are not professional and their knowledge is probably limited to running some DAW software on their computer and knowing their way around a handful of plugins. Sorry, that's not enough for an informed opinion.

My informed opinion, as someone that makes his living from this is that the voice on the Cascio songs is identical to the voice on Jason Malachi's songs, but supplemented with another voice (likely James Porte), and random MJ adlibs that have been inserted from other songs, like the ones on "Keep Your Head Up" that come from "Earth Song".

As jaXXXon stated - reality check and practical reasoning.

If the authenticity of this songs was on trial, everything I wrote would stand up in court. 99% of what I've seen written by the people that think these songs are Michael, since November when BN first streamed, is invalid excuses, conjecture (maybe they don't sound like MJ because this or because that), or just straight up wrong. With no evidence anywhere in sight. There's still not a SINGLE valid reason for why the vocals on these songs have absolutely nothing in common with anything else Michael ever recorded. There's not a single reason to support a record label that MJ did not want to release new music with, and a random ass kid with no musical experience or credits whose family just happened to be friends with Michael, over his own family, and proven producers like Darkchild and A&R men like Cory Rooney who had worked with Michael for years. There's no reason why anyone should take Howard Weitzman's word without him providing anything to back it up.

If the Cascio's had a shred of evidence that it was Michael - They would have shown it by now. What better time than on Oprah?
 
But if they updated their 2008 filings, which may have included completely different songs WITH music, how does this prove anything? If the 2008 filing included lyrics and music to completely different songs (without Michael Jackson) and was later updated on 27th of June 2009 with the contentious lyrics ONLY (suddenly WITH Michael Jackson) how does your post prove that that wasn't the case?

And also can you explain why Teddy Riley only received vocal tracks? Why the 'music' wasn't supplied?

ivy;3199842 said:
Explaining Cascio songs registration information

Type of Work: Sound Recording and Music

First let's define what's a sound recording is

Definition from the copyright law, 17 U.S.C. 101: A work resulting from the fixation of a series of musical or other sounds, but not including the sounds accompanying a motion picture or other audiovisual work. Common examples include recordings of music, drama, or lectures.

Now let's define "music"

Definition From Compendium of Copyright Office Practices, sections 401 - 403.01: Musical compositions are original music, including any accompanying lyrics; also, original arrangements or other derivative versions of earlier musical compositions to which new copyrightable authorship has been added. Music is generally defined as a succession of pitches or rhythms, or both, usually in some definite pattern. Musical works are registrable without regard to aesthetic standards.

Furthermore see the authorship part of the registration: Michael Joseph Jackson. James Porte, Edward Cascio: sound recording, performance, production, compilation, lyrics

From the "sound recordings" form to learn about the details of authorship.

Sound recording authorship is the performance, sound production, or both, that is fixed in the recording deposited for registration. Describe this authorship in space 2 as “sound recording.” If the claim also covers the underlying work(s), include the appropriate authorship terms for each author, for example, “words,” “music,” “arrangement of music,” or “text.”

Let's differentiate between sound recording and musical compositions

A musical composition consists of music, including any accompanying words, and is normally registered as a work of the performing arts. The author of a musical composition is generally the composer, and the lyricist, if any. A musical composition may be in the form of a notated copy (for example, sheet music) or in the form of a phonorecord (for example, cassette tape, LP, or CD). Sending a musical composition in the form of a phonorecord does not necessarily mean that there is a claim to copyright in the sound recording.

so music composition is mainly for the lyrics and notes and it doesn't cover the sound recordings.

A sound recording results from the fixation of a series of musical, spoken, or other sounds. The author of a sound recording is the performer(s) whose performance is fixed, or the record producer who processes the sounds and fixes them in the final recording, or both.
Copyright in a sound recording is not the same as, or a substitute for, copyright in the underlying musical composition


As we can all see that the registration wasn't for lyrics only and it included music and sounds as well. If it was lyrics only the registration type will be "music composition" only, "sound recording" shows that there was accompanying music and spoken sounds and "performer" shows that MJ, Porte and Cascio were the ones who performed those sounds.

Now let's learn what is needed for copyright registration

An application for copyright registration contains three essential elements: a completed application form, a nonrefundable filing fee, and a nonreturnable deposit—that is, a copy or copies of the work being registered and deposited” with the Copyright Office

Switching to the "sound recordings" form to learn what kind of deposit(copies of work) is needed for sound recordings.

An application for copyright registration must be accompanied by a deposit consisting of phonorecords representing the entire work for which registration is to be made. Unpublished Work: Deposit one complete phonorecord.

double checking it with Sound recording / musical composition registration information form

what is being registered : Musical composition and sound recording
what the author has created : Music and sound recording or Music, words, and sound recording
what should be deposited unpublished works: 1 complete phonorecord (disc or cassette)


(side note : Definition of phonorecord : phonorecord is the physical object in which works of authorship are embodied. The word “phonorecord” includes cassette tapes, CDs, and vinyl disks as well as other formats.)

Is electronicly sending copies of the work possible : Yes "If you file an application for copyright registration online using eCO, you may in some cases attach an electronic copy of your deposit

We learned that for a copyright registration of a sound recording and musical composition an audio copy of the whole work has to be submitted.


Registration Number / Date: SRu000911714 / 2009-06-27

A copyright registration is effective on the date the Copy*right Office receives all required elements in acceptable form, regardless of how long it takes to process the application and mail the certificate of registration.

So June 27 is the date they received the application form, the registration fee and the deposit (copy) of the whole works being registered.

Application Title: MJ Song Book 2009 #1.

Unpublished Collections
Under the following conditions, a work may be registered in unpublished form as a “collection,” with one application form and one fee:
• The elements of the collection are assembled in an
orderly form;
• The combined elements bear a single title identifying the
collection as a whole
;
• The copyright claimant in all the elements and in the col*lection as a whole is the same; and
• All the elements are by the same author, or, if they are by different authors, at least one of the authors has contributed copyrightable authorship to each element.


what we learned - if the unpublished works have the same authors you can register it with a single title by using one application form and one fee.

Description: Electronic file (eService)

This basically shows that e electronic Copyright Office (eCO) is used.

source: copyright basics

source: sound recording registration form

source : Information about sound recordings and musical compositions registrations
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I'm siding with the family that it's not MJs voice on those tracks, that's all I'll say.

Just out of interest;

Did you side with La Toya when she, live on TV, stated that her brother was a child molester?

Or does she only lie 'sometimes'?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I don't need anyone to tell me it's Jason Malachi on those records.


And this is the crux of the problem we have, with 'truth'.

There are people on here who would not believe Jason Malachi is singing, even if he came on TV and said it. They would always have "He's being paid. I know my own ears!"

Michael faced this all through his life. I know people who say similar things to that. They say things like;

"I don't care. Even if Jordy Chandler was live on TV and said "MJ never touched me", I wouldn't believe him. He would only say it because he is being paid! The same as all of them. I don't need no one to tell me MJ is a child molester, because I just know he is! No one can convince me otherwise!"

I wonder what we would call people like that?

Poor Michael.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

And this is the crux of the problem we have, with 'truth'.

There are people on here who would not believe Jason Malachi is singing, even if he came on TV and said it. They would always have "He's being paid. I know my own ears!"

Michael faced this all through his life. I know people who say similar things to that. They say things like;

"I don't care. Even if Jordy Chandler was live on TV and said "MJ never touched me", I wouldn't believe him. He would only say it because he is being paid! The same as all of them. I don't need no one to tell me MJ is a child molester, because I just know he is! No one can convince me otherwise!"

I wonder what we would call people like that?

Poor Michael.

Anyone who believes Michael was a child molestor hasn't looked at the available evidence. Anyone believing Michael Jackson sings the Cascio songs hasn't looked at the available evidence.

We have 12 songs which, from the available evidence, sound nothing like any other songs in Michael Jackson's vast back catalogue. Registered without his knowledge. Sold to his nemesis Sony. For millions. There's the evidence.

For the record, Michael Jackson understood why Latoya said what she said and he forgave her and he was able to reconcile with her. On what basis are you claiming he was wrong to do so? You're going to claim you know better than Michael Jackson?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Anyone who believes Michael was a child molestor hasn't looked at the available evidence. Anyone believing Michael Jackson sings the Cascio songs hasn't looked at the available evidence.

We have 12 songs which, from the available evidence, sound nothing like any other songs in Michael Jackson's vast back catalogue. Registered without his knowledge. Sold to his nemesis Sony. For millions. There's the evidence.

For the record, Michael Jackson understood why Latoya said what she said and he forgave her and he was able to reconcile with her. On what basis are you claiming he was wrong to do so? You're going to claim you know better than Michael Jackson?

To be fair. This is not evidence at all.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

[youtube]QSLov7zYrSc[/youtube]

Enough said, but if you want more....

1. Evidence (or lack thereof)

There is NO evidence that Michael sang the Cascio songs. None. If it was OBVIOUSLY him on the songs, this wouldn't matter. Since it's not obviously him, more evidence is required. Yet there is none. When faced with this accusation, what would you do? I'd provide the evidence. ESPECIALLY when given the opportunity to do so on a TV show watched by millions of people, like Oprah. Yet they failed to do so. No video footage of the songs being recorded, or even footage of Michael just standing in their studio. No outtake vocals. No adlibs. No lyric sheets or any notes written with Michael's handwriting. Teddy Riley's excuse is that the vocals are heavily processed. If this is the case, where are the original unprocessed vocals? Tarryl asked for them and was told "the computer broke", and "the hard drive was destroyed". Does this sound likely? If this were Michael on the songs, there would be NUMEROUS ways to prove it. Again, they have failed to provide a single piece of evidence.

2. Motives for lying

Either Eddie Cascio and Teddy Riley are lying, or 3T, Darkchild and Cory Rooney are. There's no other alternative. Eddie's motive is clear. So is Riley's. MONEY. They were paid a significant amount for these songs. Teddy in particular is in need of it, having had no significant production work in recent history, and filing for bankruptcy a few years ago, and having being forced to sell his house and many of his belongings to pay tax bills to avoid being sent to prison. This is all well documented. His studio also "burnt down" which was clearly an insurance scam, as it was about be foreclosed on due to unpaid bills. Eddie's other motive is fame and opportunity. What's the likelihood that a completely unknown producer with no prior credits would have the opportunity to work with the likes of Orianthi and 50 Cent (who both appear on "Monster"), or share production credits with the award winning Tricky Stewart, who is responsible for a string of hits including Rihanna's "Umbrella"? The answer is, slim to none.

Now, let's contrast that with the possibility that 3T are lying. What do they have to gain from lying? The answer is... NOTHING. It doesn't make any difference to their lives. They only seek to protect their beloved Uncle's legacy. They have nothing to gain. Their Uncle was the hero and their idol. They actually HAVE been in the studio with him, as he co-produced their "Brotherhood" album and sang on two songs. They know what their uncle's vocals sound like, and they are aware of all the evidence that WOULD be available from a REAL MJ recording session, because they've shared recording sessions with him. Darkchild and Cory Rooney also have nothing to gain from lying.

3. The alleged meeting and forensic report

Howard Weitzman claims a forensic report was done. These reports have not been publically released. Why not? If a report was indeed done, why should we trust his word on the outcome of it? It would be easy to release these reports if they are real. The fact that Weitzman says a report was done means nothing. If I sat her and told you all the sky was neon spotted pink and yellow, what would you do? Believe me? Or ask for proof? If something is questionable, you provide proof. Something both the Cascios and Howard Weitzman have failed to do.

So, moving on to the alleged meeting. Weitzman says that Dr Freeze, Bruce Swedien, Teddy Riley et al all met and agreed the vocals were Michael. However, we have not heard from ANY of these people directly, bar Riley. So again, we're expected to take Weitzman's word without ANY proof that this was the case. Furthermore - Cory Rooney was AT THAT MEETING and he says that they did NOT all agree that the vocals were authentic.

Objective Analysis

The vocal tone, pronunciation, and strength of these Cascio vocals are not consistent with ANYTHING else ever recorded by Michael Jackson in over 40 years. They are not even consistent with other songs recorded in the SAME timeframe or afterwards, like "Best Of Joy" or "Hold My Hand". There isn't a single authentic, original Michael Jackson vocal trademark in any of these songs. All of these songs come from the same source, as the other 7 songs on the album are quite obviously Michael.

There is no excuse for why the vocals don't sound like Michael. I personally have recorded in everything from the most basic budget home studio, to the biggest recording studios in the world, you can compare tracks I've recorded in different settings and it's always CLEARLY the same person. So that whole "these songs were recorded in a budget studio" excuse does NOT wash. It's invalid. Also invalid is the attempt to pass them off as "demos". We've heard scores of real demos by Michael, and it's always obviously him.

There is no evidence at all to support a claim of it being Michael. NONE. The people responsible for these songs have a clear motive to lie. The people close to Michael who have publically stated it's NOT him on those songs have NO reason to lie. Finally - I'm a professional vocalist and producer, signed to a major label, and I make my living using my ears. I know the capabilities and extent of every vocal processing plugin you could possibly think of. None of them could make the most identifiable voice, the most famous voice that has ever existed, sound like an entirely different person. Some of you guys can sit behind your Fruity Loops and call yourself producers or artists, but I have the credits to back it up, with releases that have sold hundreds of thousands of records and songs in Hollywood movies and million+ selling video games from the likes of EA Sports. What I'm saying by bringing this up is that, if you want to come at me with that weak ass "budget studio" or "vocal processing" argument, the fact is that I likely know a GREAT DEAL more than you on these subjects.

I've listened to Michael damn near every day since 1989. Released, unreleased, acapella, remix, rare, interview, speech, whatever you can think of, I've heard all of it. My PERSONAL opinion is that it is quite blatantly NOT Michael Jackson singing these Cascio songs.

However, ignoring my personal opinion - if you look at all the points I've presented above - hell, you could present those points in a court of law - the ONLY POSSIBLE unbiased, objective conclusion you can possibly come to, taking all evidence and analysis to hand - again - is that it's NOT him singing these songs.

Peace.
Great job Casey! As someone who is still undecided about the authenticity of the vocals, I really appreciate your thorough breakdown of the subject. To get a fresh perspective of the situation, I decided to go one full week without listening to any songs from the 'Michael' CD or any other Michael Jackson songs. Once the week was over, I listened to the complete CD several times over along with other Michael Jackson songs from my collection. Although I am no expert, I honestly feel there is something "wrong" about the vocals on these 3 songs in comparison to Michael's other music which I have enjoyed for almost 30 years now. The leave me with a sense of emptiness unlike any other Michael Jackson song I have ever heard.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Casey, jaxxon, samhabib, exellent posts. Ivy thanks- i had been reading what you posted already and those are the rules and regulations but my point was that as long as there is no lawsuit there is no way whatsoever to know what exactly they submitted to the copyright office and if it matches what they submitted over a year later to the estate for sale. I am not very good at expressing what i mean but the copyright office does not 'police' what is submitted. They are not responsible for checking authenticity. They just register what they receive. Do you get what i'm trying to say? I'm not sure it's coming out right.... Also i'd like to know why james porte has been so completely invisible in all of this considering he was apparently so involved in every aspect of those tracks.
 
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