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Theories : What do you think happened based on testimony

xthunderx2 said:
I still wonder WHY kai was let go in May...but rehired in June???
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Yes that is curious. She had one month off while maybe Michael cooked for himself. Unless, he mainly wanted her for the London trip?
 
Now I am so mad I looked at that video^^. He was not surprised that Michael died? Why everyone seems to know that Michael would die that year except me? I am sick of these people, and look he talks about his employer's business with friends and family. I thought these people signed confidentiality clauses. Where do these people come from?
 
jrsfan said:
There was another chef - Douglas B Jones. He cashed in right away:

link:
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusiv...ckson’s-chef-reveals-bombshell-about-singer’s

I understood Kai left over money dispute having to do with thome.
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thank you for reminding me....now that you state it..I do remember the statement that she left over money. However the video.....I am caught off guard at...WHY is it people are coming out of the woodwork.....was Michael REALLY walking and talking slowly when this guy was in Michael's employment??...who knows....he looks like he is telling the truth....I just don't know anymore...It sure didn't take him long to spill his guts to the media.
 
Interesting interview. Esp. the last line: it's one thing if you're doing it because you love to do it, it's another if you're doing it to get out of debt. Why would he say that? I mean, what was it about Michael or the environment in the house that would lead him to make such a statement? Is he alluding to pressure being brought to bear on Michael from some external source?
I wish the interviewer had asked him to clarify that statement.

Yet he said, when asked, that everything was in process of...He seemed to be saying that even though Michael was whatever, talking, walking slow, thin or slim, that Michael was 'evolving' to be getting ready for the concerts.

This is probably not the right place to put these but it's the rest of the interview with Chef Jones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLQdHaj_Nvw
Wonder what Joe Jackson's visit was going to be about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVq-IZDRoyY&feature=related
 
cinzia said:
Interesting interview. Esp. the last line: it's one thing if you're doing it because you love to do it, it's another if you're doing it to get out of debt. Why would he say that? I mean, what was it about Michael or the environment in the house that would lead him to make such a statement? Is he alluding to pressure being brought to bear on Michael from some external source?
I wish the interviewer had asked him to clarify that statement.

Yet he said, when asked, that everything was in process of...He seemed to be saying that even though Michael was whatever, talking, walking slow, thin or slim, that Michael was 'evolving' to be getting ready for the concerts.

This is probably not the right place to put these but it's the rest of the interview with Chef Jones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLQdHaj_Nvw
Wonder what Joe Jackson's visit was going to be about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVq-IZDRoyY&feature=related
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thank you for posting the second part of that interview, HE almost makes it sound like HE was let go because the kids didn't like him..or had a problem with him. ?? Thats how I understood it.....I wonder if that is why Kai was brought back. If that IS what happened..then his account may not be to credible.
 
You're welcome...

It could be as you say. Makes sense. If the children didn't like you, sayonara...I liked what he had to say about the children.

A tranquil house, then why did he make that statement about doing the concerts for love vs. debt? What does he know or suspect?

I wonder why we haven't heard much about this man before. Or have I just missed it?
 
If the kids did not like him, I am not surprised. If you see someone walking slowly and talking slowly, it would not lead you to conclude that the person was doing a concert to get out of debt. Then, when the person died a rational person would not conclude that he died because he was doing the concert to payoff the debt. He is reading into what the media said about Michael being in debt and other tabloid news and making an erroneous conclusion that because Michael was doing the concerts not for love but to relieve his debt he died. Cooking does not allow you to draw these insane conclusions. We all know Micahel loved to perform but not touring, and there are other reasons why he wanted to do the shows as well Good bye chef.
 
cinzia;3231197 said:
You're welcome...

It could be as you say. Makes sense. If the children didn't like you, sayonara...I liked what he had to say about the children.

A tranquil house, then why did he make that statement about doing the concerts for love vs. debt? What does he know or suspect?

I wonder why we haven't heard much about this man before. Or have I just missed it?
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He may have overheard things or gotten gossip from other employees. He knew he had to get along with the children as he said in one of the vids.

In the article to go with the vid, apparently Jones stated this:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/07/exclusive-video-interview-michael-jackson%E2%80%99s-chef-reveals-bombshell-about-singer%E2%80%99s

Jones said he had his doubts about Jackson being able to make it through a rigorous concert tour. “He looked thin or slim,” Jones said. “He was talking very slowly and he was moving very slowly. He had the surgical mask on” and he also wore “this shower cap or surgical cap,” that was bluish in color. Jones left Jackson’s employ at the end of May. He says that Jackson wanted him to accompany him on tour but they couldn’t agree on financial compensation. Jackson died June 25.

So there were money issues with him also apparently. Now was he paid by AEG & the negotiations were with AEG or MJ or Thome?
 
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xthunderx2 said:
thank you for reminding me....now that you state it..I do remember the statement that she left over money. However the video.....I am caught off guard at...WHY is it people are coming out of the woodwork.....was Michael REALLY walking and talking slowly when this guy was in Michael's employment??...who knows....he looks like he is telling the truth....I just don't know anymore...It sure didn't take him long to spill his guts to the media.
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It's like he took notes & was planning on making some extra cash all along.

It doesn't sound like he actually saw MJ that much, as though Prince had more interaction with him. In the first vid he says the first few days he saw him at a distance.

In the radaronline article it says this:
Jones is the first person to come forward and say he saw oxygen tanks at the home. The oxygen coupled with the Diprivan discovery could be a smoking gun in what killed Jackson.

So he corroborates Lee, in the beginning the press seemed to have doubts initially about her story.


There was another interview with him that was on youtube - perhaps someone saved it? I searched for it & couldn't find it. It could have either been a longer one of this or perhaps with a different organisation, like ET.
 
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hmmmmm power
i said,"power=testimony" (spokesman?WOWO?from?the birdshow quotation?)
 
xthunderx2 said:
thank you for reminding me....now that you state it..I do remember the statement that she left over money. However the video.....I am caught off guard at...WHY is it people are coming out of the woodwork.....was Michael REALLY walking and talking slowly when this guy was in Michael's employment??...who knows....he looks like he is telling the truth....I just don't know anymore...It sure didn't take him long to spill his guts to the media.
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Just rewatched TII & he wasn't walking or talking slow there. And him saying he told his family he wouldn't make the concerts is pretty wierd.
 
Can someone please send me a full summary of what they think happened based on testimony, with the facts from the testimony to back it up??

I'm so busy, that I can't look into it.

It would be greatly appreciated if someone could do that for me :) I'm very behind and can't look at all the notes.

And I'll busy from now until the trial too.
 
What would forensics show of someone who was taking propofol and other drugs every night for six weeks? However, that is a question we cannot answer at the moment. And I hope investigators are able to figure that out with their own scientists and medical experts, that is, if they really care about the truth.
 
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I think its strange that the nanny, Rosalita, hasn't sold her story. In this vid she doesn't want to be photographed or video, she wears sunglasses (it is CA) & she shields her face as she gets into a black range rover, driven by someone else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFCQ5BamBCo

 
I am not sure if she still works at the house, but I thought I have seen pics of Sister Rose.
 
kasume said:
Something that is not normally brought up.

Wouldn't Michael kiss his children night when he gets home or at least check up on them?

Murray said Michael came straight upstairs, took a shower, got dressed, and went to sleep.


Wouldn't propofol every night for six weeks have at least a slight effect on the body?
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Hi, Kasume. About your last question, the answer rests on the toxicology hair test, not made public yet. But in all probability those results DON'T support that defense line. The defense has no facts to support their lies and conjectures, hence they have to resort to TMZ narratives.
 
Maria MJ;3189452 said:
I think the most important facts have not yet been revealed.
So far I tend to believe that such reckless and irresponsible behavior prerequires awareness, acceptance, and therefore intent.
There's a thin line between accidentally causing the death of someone and knowing what could kill him but yet to take the risk. This line has been clearly crossed IMHO.
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I have always believed the same. And though we still don't really know how things really happened, the way Murray acted, according to testimonies, makes him even more culpable since his main concern was to hide evidence ("conveniently" not everything since he left the syringes...) instead of practising CPR, delayed the emergency call and guaranteed that MJ was transferred to the hospital so as to avoid a complete death investigation. Elissa Fleak admitted to the defense that initially it wasn't a complete death investigation. She took mainly pills on her first visit to MJ residence. (I can infer she acted out of prejudice...).

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MJFan07;3199942 said:
I will try to deduce some theories based on what we know so far:

1) Murray was administering a very powerful drug without proper training, proper monitoring equipment and proper resuscitation equipment (this in and of itself warrants an involuntary manslaughter charge)
2) He was being promised massive amounts of money to do so
3) He was very adamant about his role and that no one interfere as indicated by Ortega’s testimony
4) During the day of Michael’s death he was not properly monitoring his patient as can be gleaned from the phone records
5) After discovering Michael was not breathing he partook in actions that hindered resuscitation

Based on the above, I see a few possibilities:
1) Michael was desperate to sleep and as a result was willing to pay Murray large sums of money although not properly trained. Murray then messed up and tried to cover his tracks. While possible, I don’t really buy this. I have no reason to believe that Michael would be so reckless as to go under complete anesthesia night after night with only an untrained doctor by his side and without proper medical equipment. My impression has always been that MJ was very knowledgeable about medicine and while he was desperate to sleep I think there’s more to the story than just that.
2) Michael was paying Murray large sums of money for confidentially, to be at his call 24/7 and to leave his practice and other patients for an extended period of time. Murray was to help him sleep, stay hydrated, healthy, etc. This would make sense as to why he would not hire someone that specialized in treating insomnia b/c he needed him for more than just that. Murray, however, due to either internal pressures (perhaps worried that the concerts would be cancelled and he’d be out of a job) or external pressures (perhaps AEG would ask for his removal if Michael did not show up rested for rehearsals) was taking greater risks with Michael than he should have. And given that Murray was giving him sedatives, it is very possible that Michael was not even aware of the extent of drugs Murray was giving him. If I was heavily sedated I probably wouldn’t be fully aware of what the doctor was doing. Murray then messed up and tried to cover his tracks. I don’t really buy the he lost his temper theory. Had Michael fired him he would have asked him to leave and not allowed Murray to treat him that night. Had AEG fired him then I don’t really see why he would have taken it out on Michael. If anything Michael would be the one person that could try to get him rehired. I think the temper story only makes sense if he heard from someone else that MJ was going to fire him shortly. I can’t remember all the people he talked with on the phone but I’m not sure any of them would have such info.
3) This was an intentional hit. Either someone else convinced Michael to hire Murray and Michael agreed for the reasons mentioned in 2) above or someone else convinced Murray to partake after he’d already been hired. I find it extremely difficult to believe that a doctor (especially one that had good reviews from other patients) would be so incompetent as to, again, administer a very powerful drug without proper training, proper monitoring equipment and proper resuscitation equipment, would refuse to listen to concerns from others about his patient, would pay no attention to his patient that he’s being highly paid to monitor, and would hinder resuscitation if it wasn’t intentional. I would think he would have messed up sooner with someone else and had other malpractice suits to deal with if he was this incompetent. The only other explanation for his incompetence, other than intent, that I can think of would be the promise of money. Perhaps he was so focused on that that he didn’t care how reckless he was being, which really brings me back to theory 2 above. The only thing that doesn’t make sense to me about theory 2 is why buy all the propofal in advance? That leads more to either theory 1 or 3. Theory 1 for obvious reasons and theory 3 b/c it makes it look like theory 1 is what happened. If this was intentional he would have done everything to make it look like it was not intentional.

I guess to conclude, I think there’s still a lot we haven’t heard and I don’t really know what to make of it all at this point. I’m not sure we’ll ever really know.
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In my view, the last underlined conclusion seems the most logical one of the three deductions you have suggested.
 
She took mainly pills on her first visit to MJ residence. (I can infer she acted out of prejudice...).
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Can you believe the police made NO LIMITATIONS as to who could enter/leave the house after that visit? Unbelievable. Michael should have been declared gone at the house. They should have taped the surroundings. Then split up everyone in that house apart, and ask them alone of what happened.

smoothlugar;3255366 said:
Hi, Kasume. About your last question, the answer rests on the toxicology hair test, not made public yet. But in all probability those results DON'T support that defense line. The defense has no facts to support their lies and conjectures, hence they have to resort to TMZ narratives.
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Well, I don't know if propfol for six weeks straight would have its signs in the hair....if it does, then that can be a lead.

Because I really don't know what effect prop. for that long would have on the body and all the systems. If it has an effect, that effect SHOULD show up in Michael's autopsy.

Since this thread is about what we think happened based on testimony, someone shared a ustream link with me from justice4michael. They have one or two people in the courtroom who inform the fans. Is the group, justice4michael, the same group called Justice4MJ?


Or are they two different groups run by different people?

) This was an intentional hit. Either someone else convinced Michael to hire Murray and Michael agreed for the reasons mentioned in 2) above or someone else convinced Murray to partake after he’d already been hired. I find it extremely difficult to believe that a doctor (especially one that had good reviews from other patients) would be so incompetent as to, again, administer a very powerful drug without proper training, proper monitoring equipment and proper resuscitation equipment, would refuse to listen to concerns from others about his patient, would pay no attention to his patient that he’s being highly paid to monitor, and would hinder resuscitation if it wasn’t intentional. I would think he would have messed up sooner with someone else and had other malpractice suits to deal with if he was this incompetent. The only other explanation for his incompetence, other than intent, that I can think of would be the promise of money. Perhaps he was so focused on that that he didn’t care how reckless he was being, which really brings me back to theory 2 above. The only thing that doesn’t make sense to me about theory 2 is why buy all the propofal in advance? That leads more to either theory 1 or 3. Theory 1 for obvious reasons and theory 3 b/c it makes it look like theory 1 is what happened. If this was intentional he would have done everything to make it look like it was not intentional.
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I think buying all that propofol in advance was part of the set up. Strange that Michael would even ask nurse lee to give him propofol when his personal doctor already ordered a boatload. Oh, I could completley tear this situation apart....but I don't want to help the defense. Let's just say, it doesn't make any sense even with the 'Michael began to distrust murray' excuse.

The last sentence, a lot of murderers do that, either try to make it look like an accident on their part, or an accident or suicide on the victim's part. There's been some pretty smart set ups in history, which even impresses me.

I have always believed it was the third option since June 25th.

The most successful, prolific killers are extraordinarily ordinary." We like to think of the killers as monsters, but most of the time they look like any other person on the street. Fox says, " the fact of the matter is, if they looked strange and bizarre they wouldn't be so dangerous." Forensic psychologist Stanton Samenow, Ph.D., considers criminals "very, very changeable." He says, "They can pray at 9:00 and commit a brutal assault at 10:30." Often, says Samenow, criminals are very engaging people. They are often intelligent and accomplished in life. These characteristics allow them to draw people into their "web".
http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/healthyforlife/1848.shtml

All we have to do is look at this man's eyes. Look at his face, his expression.There is something he's not telling everyone. I would just place the blame here on murray, but that is absolutely impossible unless all the holes and inconsistencies regarding the others are cleared up. And from the preliminary, only more holes/inconsistencies arose.

And then there's thome thome, his body language on the 25th was wierd. And call me crazy, but to me it seemed like he was trying to hold back a smile on that day.
 
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jrsfan;3222163 said:
The only thing I can think of is that she went to do something & came back when the children were downstairs again. Although maybe someone else has a better idea?

The guy with her at LKL when she left seemed to be a high priced lawyer - don't know who he was - but didn't seem to be someone she could afford. Maybe he's a publicist? idk

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/O2nQlI9T2uE" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>
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Upon listening to this interview, I think he is Michael Sands:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/k485Rvq_YvU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

links:

http://www.michaelsands.com/

http://www.michaelsands.com/biography.htm

MICHAEL SANDS
MEDIA IMAGE CONSULTANT

Anyone with a phone and a computer can hang out a public relations shingle these days. In fact, with today’s bloggers and party planners fancying themselves as high-powered PR gurus, just about anyone has. That’s why Media Image Consultant MICHAEL SANDS stands out, and away, from this self-absorbed, self-important crowd. For more than 30 years, Michael’s clients have gotten more than just a brief mention on Page 6. They’re called upon to help communicate issues and ideas in industries ranging from fashion to defense, from sports to aerospace, and of course — entertainment.

MICHAEL SANDS has been instrumental in helping the Public Relations industry of the ‘80s transform into Media Consulting in the ‘90s and evolve into the wide range of competencies that constitute today’s Media Image Consulting profession. In fact, he coined the phrase.

MICHAEL UNDERSTANDS CELEBRITIES… AND CELEBRITY

· Michael is the quintessential low-profile high-profile Hollywood insider. His friends are the "Who's Who" of the "A" List in Hollywood.

· For many years, Michael said “Cheese” to the clicks of Nikons. He was a well known New York and European fashion print/runway model, with high profile magazine covers and appearances on the catwalks of New York and Milan. Michael has worked personally with, among others, Cerruti, Avedon, Bill Blass, Pierre Cardin, Geoffrey Beene, Oscar de la Renta, Yves Saint Laurent (pictures on request) in their studios and on location.

· Michael was photographed for: GQ, ESQUIRE, BRIDE'S, L’UOMO VOGUE, PARADE, TIME, the NEW YORK MAGAZINE, NY TIMES SUNDAY MAGAZINE, and even a few JC Penney catalogues.

· Michael knew when it was time to stop saying “Cheese” and start saying “Cheesecake,” as in C’est Cheesecake, his successful LA-based gourmet cheesecake business. The magazines continued to follow, as PEOPLE Magazine devoted a two-page spread to Michael’s thriving business in June 25, 1984, and ENTREPRENEUR made him its cover story in September 1985.

· As an actor, Michael has worked with Michael Douglas, Michael Crichton, Stacy Keach, Jr., and Dennis DeYoung (from legendary ‘70’s band Styx) in his "Don't Wait For Heroes" video on MTV. Michael has appeared on Quincy, Mike Hammer, Coma, in other TV programs as well as commercials and motion pictures. Michael is a member of SAG and AFTRA.

· Recently in print, Michael's expertise is showcased in topical stories that appear in newspapers and magazines: the AP, USA Today, People, Life and Style, In Touch Weekly.

· Fox Television's "Good Day, LA” asked Michael to appear in their May 2006 Sweeps television commercials.

· The media industry itself leverages Michael’s expertise. Print and broadcast media clients worldwide retain him under contract to groom their journalists and producers, and mentor them as they ascend to high visibility positions.

· Remember Mr. Blackwell? You wouldn’t if Michael hadn’t stepped in and resurrected his career. His Worst Dressed lists re-emerged as relevant and newsworthy under Michael’s direction in 1988. Mr. Blackwell counted on Michael's direction and stylized PR campaign for his re-emergence by creating the profit centers for print, television and for his coffee table book “Thirty Years of Fashion Fiascos" and autobiography “From Rags To Bitches."


· Designed and implemented Los Angeles Police Chief Daryl Gates’ campaign and slogan "Gates Must Stay", increasing public awareness during the Rodney King incident.

· As an approved Department of Defense contractor, Michael is also known as the "Go To Guy" for the media, working with the military starting with Desert Shield and Desert Storm, then to the war in Yugoslavia. In September 2002, he supplied resources to Operation Iraqi Freedom, CJTF-7, CPIC in Baghdad and CTF 59 in Cyprus during the Israeli War, and at Camp Fallujah, the Pentagon, various military bases and with other government agencies.

· Conceived the idea that the search for missing persons should go to national media with the launch of the concept through his tireless efforts to search for screenwriter Gary DeVore in 1997.

· Produced and directed CelebrityDoctor.com in 1999, the first live Internet broadcast of male and female celebrities undergoing cosmetic surgery for facelifts. This first of its kind event received worldwide ink and broadcast, as did the unveilings of the new faces. Archived footage is available at www.celebritydoctor.com .

· Quoted throughout Marcia Layton Turner’s 2004 book exploring celebrity chef "Emeril".

· Michael Sands was the "Celebrity Image Consultant" on On Air with Ryan Seacrest chatting about Jackson, Courtney, Martha and Kobe. He was also on "Celebrity Justice" as the "Media Consultant" talking about Naomi and Kobe. "The Big Story" with Rita Cosby featured Michael speaking about Martha and live on "Scarborough Country" discussing Michael Jackson.

· On several Access Hollywood appearances Michael spoke about "HOW STARS RE-BUILD THEIR IMAGE AFTER A NEGATIVE INCIDENT" and the one-hour special "MATCHMAKING CELEBRITIES TOGETHER INTO A BOX OFFICE IMAGE."

"I am grateful to my longtime media pals that have
given me the opportunities to be a part of their publications.”

Michael’s appearances include: The Today Show, NBC Nightly News, Good Morning America, CNN, Hard Copy, CNBC, Inside Edition, MSNBC, E! Canada AM, EXTRA and Celebrity Justice. In print, Michael’s appeared in People Magazine, AP, Reuters, Entrepreneur, Details, Self, USA Today, Los Angeles Times, New York Times, Washington Post and Sunday Mirror (UK) just to name a few.

Sands Digital Media clients have been seen on: The Today Show, Nancy Grace, Anderson Cooper 360, Paula Zahn Now Good Morning America, Fox News Channel, Rita Cosby Live and Direct, MSNBC, World News Tonight, CNN, and in: AP, Los Angeles Times, Vogue, W, Glamour, The Wall Street Journal, People en Espanol, Marie Claire, Self, Harper's Bazaar, Mademoiselle, Elle, Glamour, Parade, and Amica.


http://gawker.com/#!359105/michael-sands-lapd-most-trustworthy-sources-in-gossipdom

PUBLIC RELATIONS
Michael Sands, LAPD: Most Trustworthy Sources In Gossipdom
Hamilton Nolan — Actor, model, cheesecake entrepreneur, and publicist Michael Sands is helping his client, Britney manager/ extorter Sam Lutfi, protect his valuable reputation by craftily playing gossip outlets against each other. TMZ reported last night that the LAPD is investigating Lutfi for illegally drugging Britney. Hours later, PageSix.com struck back with a report that the po-po is doing no such thing [UPDATE: Radar.com takes credit for the original scoop]! The evidence is clear:

Michael Sands, Sam Lutfi's spokesman, exclusively tells us that "Internet tabloid gossip Web sites need to stop reporting bogus stories without knowing the truth. They need to stop brainwashing the public."
..... Reported PageSix.com.
 
jrsfan said:
In this vid Beth Karas talks about the investigator picking up propofol 4 days later - one bottle found under the table in MJ's bedroom. But when I look at death scene photos, that seems unlikely that anyone would have missed the bottle.
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Right, and they didn't miss it either, that one bottle was found on the first day. Check list of collected items from 06/26 in the autopsy report.
 
princessleia said:
Right, and they didn't miss it either, that one bottle was found on the first day. Check list of collected items from 06/26 in the autopsy report.
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:flowers:Thanks, I must have misunderstood from Beth Karas' report. I will go check.
 
Based on testimony so far, I think Michael didn't even get a chance to go to sleep that night.

Jrsfan, the nanny puzzles me too, and at least one housekeeper.
 
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Based on everything that have been discussed in this thread so far, is the MJJC coming out with the most plausible theory or theories (not more than 3) before the trial? Or is that not possible because there are too many unknowns or unanswered questions, and it's too complicated?
 
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