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Murray Trial - October 13 - Day 12 - Discussion

The amount is not important, if you are bold enough to administer Propofol in this setting it's imperative to make sure that it's no longer working after 10 mins. What about 20 mins? Time is not important, is it the sedative still doing its job?

So time is not important? (Flan) No, it is, but it's the doctor's duty to figure out what happens with his patient. This is a job that requires continuous monitoring and there shouldn't have been any exceptions.

What about an hour? (Flan) Continue monitoring patient and make sure that it's not a depressed state of consciousness.
 
monitor a patient visually.. can u tell the person is sleeping naturally or not?? witness says NO, cant do it by visual monitoring

since MJ had gotten other benzos as well, visual montoring despite if u have a oxymeter etc, is not appropriate
 
He keeps adding that he does not endorse administering propofol in that setting, objections sustained.

No, you can't monitor the patient just visually.
 
Dr. Kamanager would want to make sure and monitor a patient vigilantly to assure that it IS sleep and not the Propofol.

Would have woken Michael up, if he thought it was the sedative effects & not natural sleep making Michael sleep.
 
In the context of this case, Mr Jackson has received other agents and he would of continued monitoring and he would of tried to see if he was responsive to external stimuli. Even if he had been trying to get him to sleep for 9 hours? Yes, the good of the patient is not always what the patient perceives as his good.

So CM's assesment of natural sleep was not correct? No, it was a very difficult assesment to make.
 
"Massive doses of deep sedatives", what does that mean? He suspects that there was a drip, most likely not infused by a precise pump to regulate the dose that was being received.

You believe that CM used a drip? Yes. Interview page 62 (I think), Cm mentioned this.

Is this the same as the other doctor testified (our hero, forgot his name) No, he didn't watch the testimony.
 
Did he discuss page 62 with mr Walgren? No, but it may have been part of their discussions.

If a person has a cardio pulmonary arrest... the sequence is respiratory arrest, followed by cardiac arrest. He doesn't think that it was a cardio pulmonary arrest? Yes, he does, just trying to explain the sequence of events.
 
Hypothetically, if the cardio pulmonary arrest occurred around 12 o clock, what should CM do? If the had a lack of tool, he should of called for help. Dr walks in, sees the bed, sees the patent, not breathing, then rather than spending time with the patient he should go get help? (Flan) CM made an assesment (122 pulse, etc) so due to the lack of resources he should of called for help and tried to ventilate.
 
Manipulating the airway and doing a jaw thrust takes seconds, understanding that you have a lack of resources and calling for help is mandatory. But he does have resources(Flan)... ??? He is a doctor. Objection sustained lolz.
 
Flan: Does he need to touch him -
Dr K: yes
Flan: Does he need to manipulate him -
Dr K: jaw thrust
What is going to save the patient is to get help..incumbent on him to call for help.

flan: is saying Murray does have resources...his skills he's a doctor...judge wants him to explain what he means he's a doctor :)

Flan: what if some ones in the next room...(what if pigs fly)

Dr K: I would want 911 security is not going to provide any adequate help
 
Once again, everyone else is to blame for not calling 911. Two freaking cell phones with speakers you dumb fu**!!
 
Calling 911 is fundamental. Saying Flanagan collapsed (lol), would he as a doctor go pick up the phone and call 911 or would he assign a person to call - if you are alone and don't have ressources, you should call. What if there's someone next room, yes, wait for a quick response, then call 911 yourself. What if security was called. Security who would come in seconds. No. Security would not provide any help.
 
if you have a cell phone you can call 911...in response to Flan saying there were no landlines....
 
Is he aware that no one comes though the gates without security clearance (wtf? objection sustained)

When you call 911 it is immediate, a matter of seconds. Is there a difference between using a land line and a cell phone? He doesn't know. Is that a complicating factor in calling 911? If one has a cell phone, no. (obviously)

Is he aware that the 911 call was 2 mins and 33 seconds? No, but the operator assists you AFTER sending help immediately. You can potentially be on the phone longer, but the sending of help is done instantly.
 
Even if MJ self medicated with excessive amounts of Lorazepam and bolus pushed of 25 mg of Propofol by CM, is still CM guilty? Yes.
 
back.

asking about the PDR and the FDA and the info on loraz. what did u say? he said loraz can be used for secondary insomnia for a very short term basis even though its not FDA approved.

where does the info in the PDR come from. it comes from studies etc flanagan says and packaging inserts and they are approved by the FDA? yes. dr says theres other meds that should be used for insomnia. u can only use it for secondary insomnia not primary

mj was dehydration. murray says he was.. yes the dr says he said he had a bag of saline but there were no amounts written down. all there was was a bag of saline. was it given over 24hr or a few hrs we dont know

flannagan says murray put the IV in at 1.30 dr says putting an IV in doesnt mean that was the start.putting in the fluids is the start.flanagan says it was in for 9hrs and the bag had saline in it. dr says if someone is dehydrated they can be given 3 bags over a short time once again no records by murray. i dont know how much saline murray gave mj and when

urine sample at 0730 and more at autopsy can u tell if mj was dehydrated. dr says he would need more info. u cant tell just on that.. murray never specified the level of dehydration.

25mg of diprivan infused over 3-5 mins how long would that last to keep someone asleep. 6-10 mins in a normal paitent. after that time they wouldnt be sedated?? no says the dr every paitent is diff. everyone has to monitored to see if the diprivan has worn off dr says who u talking about michael or a hypothetical paitent u keep bringing up? objection substained

in a normal paitent who doesnt have other sedatives in them they should be awake after 6-10mins. gradually they would come around. would they automatically open theri eyes and get up after 10 mins? he says everyones diff. flanagan says the paitent may still be aselelp after 10 mins? the dr says no they should be awake even if they are tired says flanagan? the dr says if the paitent is still asleep its my job as a dr to make sure it wasnt the sedatives. flanagan says if they are still asleep you would wake them up then? dr says yes. i would cause its my responsibility to make sure they are ok

the amount of diprivan isnt important. if you stupid enough to use diprivan in this setting. ie a bedroom its your job to keep checking. if i had given the paitent a sedatvie before the diprivan i would want to make sure the sedatives hadnt caused a problem. if the paitent is still asleep its my duty to find out whats going on and if theres a problem. it doesnt matter if you gave the paitent a tiny amount of diprivan. you still have to monitor the amount is irrelvent.

flanagan now says the paitent stays asleep for an hour! what would you do. you keep monitoring them. can u tell by just looking that the paitent is asleep in a normal sense? no u cant tell by just looking physcially at them. in this case if mj were still asleep all that time i would be making sure that he was okay. i would wake them up if i had to.cause the sedatives could have caused an issues. flannagan says you wake mj up after hes been trying to get to sleep for 9 hrs? dr says yes of course i would his safety is my priority.

mj had masses doses of deep sedatives. according to the dr. whats massive. the dr says aswell as the sedatvies he thinks a drip was used without proper infusion.dr quotes murrays statement to police. starting with a injection then a drip. flannagan says you are saying the same as steinberg. he says i have no idea i havnt watched his testimony.the dr hasnt heard the interview just read the transcript given by walgren. flanagan says did you talk to walgren about that page.hes implying walgren got him to say that.

now about the finding mj and the timing. it was a respitory arrest not a cardiac says the dr. thats based on murrays own words.flanagan says on page 3 of your report you say cardic arrest he says yes cause that was what happened in the end

what should have murray done when he found mj? he should have called for help replies the dr. flanagans says he should have done nothing but get help? dr says murray didnt do that. he checked the pulse etc.thats what u do first. flanagans implying murray should have done nothing but run for help according to the dr.

flanagans saying murry had resources didnt he. because hes a dr. according to flanagan thats a resource!

witness says you should make an inital assement of the paitent. and if you arent in a hopsital and dont have equipment you call 911 right away. .flanagans saying murray was a dr and he would assign someone else to call 911. the witness says if you are on your own you call 911. flanagans saying now if i shout at chase to get security thats ok? the dr says no .what can security do that i cant? dr keeps saying you get someone to call 911 you dont ask for security to come.u need medics there.


how long do i stay on the phone talking to 911? there were no landlines at the house is that a complicating factor in calling 911. the dr says if you have a mobile you ring. flanagan says the phonecall to 911 lasted 2m 40 sec dr says when u call 911 you speak to someone who can guide you and straight away the medics are called. the length of the call doesnt matter. as it goesstraight through the amubulance station. ( ie there was no delay in the medics coming cause he was on the phone for over 2 mins)

if mj gave himself loraz and diprivan bolus push is murray still responsible absoloutly is his reply
 
Thanks to everyone for the updates. I feel so emotionally overwhelmed that I am unable to make any reasonable summary.

Just so glad with the last respond from the withness about the call to 911!
 
There's no excuse for taking such a long time to call the paramedics. Even though the defence keep bringing up that there were no landlines in the house, Murray had an iPhone which has a loudspeaker! Clutching at straws as usual!

Back to Walgren now, thank goodness!
 
Nothing further :D

Walgreen:
If Flanagan did indeed drop to the floor, he wouldn't wait 20 minutes to call his legal secretary and ask her to send help, would he??
ROFL
 
Re-direct by Waldren

Going on hypothetical on Flan falling to floor, you wouldn't call Mr Flan's legal secretary 20 minutes and then ask her to call his security (or whatever) to call the ambulance would you :) objection...sustained
 
Walgren: It's basic common sense to call 911 knowing you don't have the correct tools, isnt' it?

Dr. Kamanager: Yes.


Popescu;3510809 said:
Nothing further :D

Walgreen:
If Flanagan did indeed drop to the floor, he wouldn't wait 20 minutes to call his legal secretary and ask her to send help, would he??
ROFL
Click to expand...

I Would. :rofl:… Maybe even longer.
mjsarc.gif
 
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CM mentions multiple times that he was aware of MJ visiting Dr Klein. The sleep article was a 2010 experiment in China, and it was in a very highly monitored type of setting, using a precisely monitored drip, so MJ was truly subjected to an experiment.

No diagnostic, no history, no notes, so CM didn't know what type of insomnia.
 
Dr Murray had no idea if Michael Jackson even had insomnia let alone what type....Dr K agrees.

If MJ requested Propofol you have moral,ethical obligation to say no, no matter how much the patient begs...
 
volitional said:
Re-direct by Waldren

Going on hypothetical on Flan falling to floor, you wouldn't call Mr Flan's legal secretary 20 minutes and then ask her to call his security (or whatever) to call the ambulance would you :) objection...sustained
Click to expand...
:lol:
 
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