Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins & Bush /Update Controversy surrounding autographs

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

But why did Michael sign all these toys/non clothing items and give to Bush? Did Bush say why? OK I could see the clothing because Bush made them, but signing these other items for Bush needs some story behind it.

The thing I do not like about Juliens, is that they tend to accept objects from people who do not own them. Take for instance Lisa's letter form Michael and that hat Fides tried to have auctioned.

About Bush, we really do not know anything about him. He was never part of the Michael dialog among fans. We knew he and his partner made the clothes, but he was not a key figure that we followed, so anything is possible, because we do not know what type of person he is. We can't even attest to his character, because we do not know. Next, after people die, sometimes those left behind find ways to make money off what they have access to that belonged to the dead person. This is one of these situations.

About the estate, I see some are trying to blame them, but they were never a party to this. Bush claimed these belonged to him and made a deal with Juliens. The estate has no contractual relationship with Juliens here. I think they should stay out of it, to avoid being dirty up. Let this be between Juliens and Bush only, if there is fraud here. If the estate wants to do some quiet investigation on the side, then by all means, but I think they should make no statements about this until some hard facts emerge. Then they could sue Juliens and Bush for potential damage of the Michael label, etc. We already have Randy involving the estate in this last caper, so the estate has to be cautious here.

Memefan I too wish I had bought some little thing so I could be a ligit buyer and ask Juliens for some sort of proof.

 

[ivy]

Let me say something here

- For any auction buyer the first step should be to contact Julien's, voice their concerns and see what they say and/or offer. They might offer refunds; they might offer an explanation or proof. This happens to be the easiest and quickest option.

- If they don't, the second step would be to start a formal return process with Julien's : getting opinions of two mutually agreed upon experts. Although these expert reports would require several hundred of dollars, it'll still be significantly lower than a lawsuit cost. Plus you'll need such expert reports to bring a lawsuit in the future. (You need to have more than a gut feeling or an opinion for a lawsuit to survive dismissal request) According to their terms Julien's will refund your money if two experts agree that the items aren't authentic.

- Third step would be to consider cost - benefit analysis and examine the expert reports. It'll be costly to pursue a lawsuit, it'll be harder to win if there's conflicting expert reports. Consider all these before any lawsuit action. (I know some people suggest file a class action lawsuit but it's not wise to do it before you pursue other options and have expert reports backing your claim – unless of course you have thousands of dollars that you don’t mind throwing down the drain)

(Think about mathematics here: If you bought an autographed picture for example you have paid around $600, getting two expert reports would cost you around $300 - $400 on average. However the minute you hired a lawyer you are looking to $200 - $500 per hour costs and probably tens of thousands dollars in lawyer retainers. Especially for the buyers of lower cost items the first 2 steps are the initial ways to try to resolve this issue).

- If this is fraud the only people that can complain would be the auction buyers. I understand the confusion and anger here but please realize the fact that if you haven’t bid and bought anything you aren't a victim here. This also is not an organized or ongoing fraud affecting a large number of people. It’s most probably isn't something that FBI or even local law enforcement will pursue - especially without proof.

- Be careful about the accusations you make and make sure you have proof – in the form of expert reports. In USA accusing people of moral turpitude crimes – which include fraud – is considered automatic defamation. An expert report could be a protection against defamation lawsuits. Similarly if you file a lawsuit and lose it you can face counter lawsuits of defamation claims and can be held responsible for the other parties legal expenses.

- Estate isn't a party to this auction in any way. They don’t have any responsibility. Based on my personal experiences I would think that they would not comment. It’s also important to remember that Branca wasn't back in the picture till late June. He might not have any direct personal knowledge about March 2009 Bravado deal and/or about prototypes and even contacted they might refer the questions to Bravado.

And why would MJ ignore Tompkins? Everything is "Thanks Bush", "Love Bush"...No way. This is just too upsetting.

Tompkins has his own family who might have hold on to the items he had. Just because it hasn't hit the sale floor doesn't mean Michael didn't sign anything to him.

 

[myosotis]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I find it hard to remember all the details, but I am still not sure (apart from the Tohme connection) that there is a big difference between MLB saying that Michael gave him lots of items in gratitude, and Brett L Strong saying that Michael gave him lots of (genuinely signed) artwork in gratitude. Surely the example of the former will now apply to the latter, and BLS will now be able to sell the artwork? (subject to the Tohme litigation and any fallout from that). I think this is an unfortunate precedent. I hope next December's ( or any subsequent) Julien's auction is not going to comprise Michael's drawings from BLS.

 

[StellaJackson]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Ouch. I'm not aware Michael ever signed with the x's before?

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Ouch. I'm not aware Michael ever signed with the x's before?

Yep, he did not, but MLB does and only the Tompkins & Bush auction items at Julien's. Soooo......

 

[marebear]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I don't think the estate should say anything either at this point. They didn't own the things in the auction. This is about Bush and Julien here. If there is a fraud and they can sue them for some kind of damages then they should. It's one thing for Bush to own the items and do what he wants but to sign anything and pass it off as Michael signing it is a different story.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I'm actually going to add something to the above post. See this from terms and conditions

Under no circumstance will Julien's incur liability to a purchaser in excess of the purchase price actually paid. The terms and conditions of sale herein described shall be enforced in accordance with, and governed by the laws of the State of California.

Any claim or controversy arising out of or relating to the Auction, the Bidder Registration Form or any breach thereof between the registered bidder and Julien's shall be submitted to arbitration in Los Angeles County, California before an arbitrator from the Judicial Arbitration and Mediation Services, Inc. ("JAMS") and conducted under its Comprehensive Arbitration Rules, as the exclusive remedy for such claim or controversy. Both parties further agree that the arbitration shall be conducted before a single JAMS arbitrator who is a retired California or federal judge or justice. By agreeing to arbitrate, the parties waive any right they have to a court or jury trial. The decision of the arbitrator shall be final and binding. The parties further agree that, upon application of the prevailing party, any Judge of the Superior Court of the State of California, for the County of Los Angeles, may enter a judgment based on the final arbitration award issued by the JAMS arbitrator, and the parties expressly agree to submit to the jurisdiction of this Court for such a purpose. The prevailing party shall be entitled to recover the party's attorneys' fees and costs incurred in connection with the arbitration.

This means

- Lawsuits aren't possible. Bidders agreed to arbitration.

- If you lose the arbitration you'll have to pay the opposite sides legal costs. If you win they'll pay yours.

- The maximum you can get is the money you paid for the item. In other words for example the money you pay to two experts for opinions is going to come out of your pocket and cannot be recoverable even if the item is found to be not authentic.

If there is a fraud and they can sue them for some kind of damages then they should.

You mean the Estate? What damages? I don't think they can.

 

[Rhilo]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I don't think it's the Estate's responsiblity to action a case against Bush or Julien's for forged autographs. However, if the autographs are faked then it casts a doubt on the ownership of the costumes. Did Bush really own all of them? If he can dupe people with autographs, it's highly likely he duped them about ownership too. Even before the autograph issue came to light, I wondered how he came to own so many and even likened it to BLS claiming to own all of Michael's drawings.

Ivy, just wondering here, if buyers successfully prove the autographs are forged, can the Estate step in and question the ownership of the clothes? Will this give them the opportunity to take MB to task on ownership and recover some of the clothes even though they are sold and have new 'owners' now?

 

[marebear]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I hope this gets cleared up somehow.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I was thinking that people's handwritting change with time but looking at the sigs Stella posted makes me wonder. The Xs & the arrows, interesting addition to Michael's signature. I also noticed that Michael used to make kind of a circle above the J on his last name. The clothes show a semi-circle.

The standee shows the name of one of Michael's cos & if it's proven Michael didn't sign it, would the estate get involved?

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I don't think Estate has any grounds for any involvement.

Autographs and ownership are two totally different issues. There were a lot of not autographed items - most of the iconic costumes- and Estate didn't challenge ownership. Plus possession is an important part of establishing ownership.

I don't see a damage to the Estate either. They aren't a party to fraud, fake autographs doesn't have any effect on Michael's name and legacy and it's like a product that affects Estate's income.

This is an issue between Julien's, Bush and the auction winners. Good news is that Julien's is actually guaranteeing authenticity for 5 years for the original buyer. If you think this items will easily be given a "not authentic" report by experts, the auction winners can get their money back by paying for 2 expert examination.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

We may never find out the truth, unless buyers question the signatures officially. Right now it seems only fans are discussing this and that expert who is a rival, or has any buyer brought an issue to Juliens that we do not know about? Juliens is going to keep quiet unless some inquiry is made.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Ivy, the reference about the estate was about the standee which have the Triumph logo.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^I wish for Michael's sake that all this is just a misunderstanding.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

We may never find out the truth, unless buyers question the signatures officially. Right now it seems only fans are discussing this and that expert who is a rival, or has any buyer brought an issue to Juliens that we do not know about? Juliens is going to keep quiet unless some inquiry is made.

I think multiple buyers contacted them and they are maintaining that the autographs are authentic.

Ivy, the reference about the estate was about the standee which have the Triumph logo.

I know that but what claim do you expect them to make? It's a $30 standee that anyone can buy and sell to someone else. Just because one allegedly fake autograph is put on it, it doesn't affect the value or the income Triumph makes from the standees they are selling. I'm not clear about what kind of claim are we talking about?

Not a perfect analogy but : imagine that I buy a cheap $99 tablet and put it in an IPad box and sell it to someone for $599 saying it's a real IPad. Why would that scam be relevant to Apple / Ipad?

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

This is beyond Julien's, this is a person who knowingly is smiling in your face, telling charming stories, posing for pictures with us, signing the book (his book!) you just bought for $50.

This sweet, never could harm a fly, person PURPOSELY forged Michael Jackson's name on papers, clothing, paint cans, whatever he could, passed them off as signed by Michael Jackson, wrote on iconic clothing and wanted these same fans to BUY these forgeries and clothing for thousands of dollars. What more proof do you people want? He is getting a pass on here because he is a nice little old man that worked for Michael for 25 years!!!!
Damn if a Jackson did this you would be celebrating and calling the FBI on Times Square. I cannot believe the bias here.

Open your eyes, stop making excuses. There was no prototype and those signatures are NOT Michael Jackson's. The Estate does not get a free pass either. They know fans are getting ripped off and fraud is going on and they don't care.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Ivy if some buyers contacted them and they said the signatures are ligit, are the buyers asking for some proof, or are they simply accepting their word.

Isallfor love I think you have a point in that if it was a Jackson, we would have come down harder on them. I guess because the Jacksons have a history of greed, but this smiling elderly man seems so sweet. Also, we are afraid of going too far due to a lack of concrete evidence. It seems we just find the signatures look different, but no one has given the items to experts. Except for the standee that was reportedly made after Michael died, we have little evidence. We need to wait for someone to give some concrete answer about the standee. Maybe Bravado is working out something with Juliens behind the scenes. Who knows......but I think the big guys will stick together somehow.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Karen Faye

I have not seem them. MLB was an avid collector of MJ's signature on items. RT @julianaka: @wingheart What do you think about the signatures in the clothes? Some fans say they're fake signatures 'cause it's not the typical one

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jviml1

Karen Faye

Because, as you said yourself, he was still alive. MJ gave away many of his clothes, some were stolen by house keepers and he had MLB store many at his home. He spoke often about creating a museum for his iconic pieces. Should MLB still keep them, until he himself passes away? RT @B__Marco: @wingheart @saradicostanzo So why he did not auctioned them and made a book WHILE MJ WAS alive and WITH MJ's approval ?

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jui43b

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Ivy if some buyers contacted them and they said the signatures are ligit, are the buyers asking for some proof, or are they simply accepting their word.

I don't know if they are asking for proof but they can initiate a formal return process which would require reports from 2 experts mutually agreed upon.

I cannot believe the bias here.

The Estate does not get a free pass either. They know fans are getting ripped off and fraud is going on and they don't care.

It's not bias. It's history. Some people - ie. Jacksons- have a long long long history that consists of the same behavior. For some other people these controversies are totally new. So yeah the latter gets a lot more benefit of the doubt from the fans. In other words there's nothing unexpected in looking to guy who is believed to be a friend/ acquitance for 25 years with spotless background /past and asking "could he really do this" and for example looking to Joe and say "yes this is expected from the guy who asked his son go on a tour while he was at hospital during his 2005 trial".

Furthermore I wish people acted realistically. It's easy for us somewhat anonymous people to sit across a computer and make criminal accusations against people. However in real life known individuals or entities - such as Estate- would not make accusations against parties without absolute proof.

And interestingly let me mention something are you aware of the number of fake Michael Jackson autographs being sold on Ebay? what are you doing about it? Do you know that those people are also scamming fans too? Why do they get a free pass?

If this autographs are fake the only difference from the fake autographs on Ebay these would have had a lot more publicity, but the scam and the fraud will be the same.

Open your eyes, stop making excuses.

such tone almost never result in the outcome you are looking for. It generally backfires.

I recommend to allow people to come to their own conclusions in their own terms and on their own time frame. For you this could be 150% obvious, someone else might require one more piece of evidence to believe it. Pushing people almost never works.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

The bias I see.

1. Why did you move this thread so fast to CONTROVERSY? This is CURRENT & RELEVANT NEWS. I guess you do not want it showing up on the main page because people that might not feel the same way as you might want to post here?

2. Telling people here that they only way they can complain about this auction is if we bought something. INCORRECT. How many people on this site bought the book by Randall Sullivan? Very few I believe. But, if you notice a fraud, you report it and you report to law enforcement, the company, the parties involved. Why is this any different?

3. Telling people here that ESTATE is not involved or should not get involved. This is another way you are showing bias. The Estate, represented by John Branca wrote the forward in MLB's book and after fans were outraged at seeing clothing owned by the Estate AND clothing supposedly owned by MLB on the book signing tour across Europe, Japan and South America, Bush and the Estate issued a statement trying to calm people down to let them know that everything was not going to be auctioned now and pieces were to be given to the Estate now. The Estate should be questioned and their position should be explained, just like they did with the outrage over the clothing and the medical records.

4. Telling people here that fake autographs do not hurt Michael Jackson's legacy. Allowing these fake autographs on to the market with an A-OK from Julien's and Michael Lee Bush and the Estate is not good for the future of MJ memorabilia and authentic Michael Jackson autographs. Yes. I know there are fakes out there, I have purchased a fake and had to get my money back. For that reason alone, I was doing my research on these autographs so I would not get burned again.

 

[Virre]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I have contacted Julien's, still no answer from them. And people say that the item I bought has a fake signature. I have a few signed items that I got directly from Michael when meeting him. They look similar, but then one I bought at Julien's is on a jacket so it's hard to tell, at least for me.
Since this did cost me a lot of money I felt I needed to sell the jacket. That is now impossible for me because of all this.

 

[myosotis]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Having read some of the autograph site, I think there doesn't seem to be a great deal of clarity about discussions there. There seems to be a mixture of advice and much of it is about how people might go about getting their money back from Julien's. The alternative argument seems to be that Lady G should be advised. These seem to be divergent aims...is it about getting money back or about 'potential fraud?...Is this a group led by authenticators who have 'history' with other authenticators, and want to 'prove a point' or make their names'? I am surprised that no -one is suggesting that items might be examined by an independent forensic 'court qualified' document examiner...and the purchased items in buyer's hands would be needed to do this. If the auto magazine was serious about this discussion, they would presumably give some advice of this kind. If purchased items go back to Julien's their 'evidence' is largely gone.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Having read some of the autograph site, I think there doesn't seem to be a great deal of clarity about discussions there. There seems to be a mixture of advice and much of it is about how people might go about getting their money back from Julien's. The alternative argument seems to be that Lady G should be advised. These seem to be divergent aims...is it about getting money back or about 'potential fraud?...Is this a group led by authenticators who have 'history' with other authenticators, and want to 'prove a point' or make their names'? I am surprised that no -one is suggesting that items might be examined by an independent forensic 'court qualified' document examiner...and the purchased items in buyer's hands would be needed to do this. If the auto magazine was serious about this discussion, they would presumably give some advice of this kind. If purchased items go back to Julien's their 'evidence' is largely gone.

There is a lot going on there.

Julien's is not responding, so the people who have purchased items are on hold because Julien's AND the purchaser evidently have to AGREE on the authenticator to review the item in question.

Steve (the owner of the site) posted the information about the Mediation Process from Julien's website. Some of the discussion now is the fact that Julien's does not like the authenticators that spoke out about the signatures prior to the auction, and that includes PSA/DNA, P.A.A.S. and Signed, Sealed & Delivered, so that leaves some of the major players out of the deal if Julien's does not want to use those companies.

Julien's should be responding to buyer's concerns. Hopefully they will soon.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I have contacted Julien's, still no answer from them. And people say that the item I bought has a fake signature. I have a few signed items that I got directly from Michael when meeting him. They look similar, but then one I bought at Julien's is on a jacket so it's hard to tell, at least for me.
Since this did cost me a lot of money I felt I needed to sell the jacket. That is now impossible for me because of all this.

Please keep trying to contact Julien's via email, telephone and maybe in writing too. They have to follow the rules to mediate the dispute and you do too. They make it hard, but unfortunately they seem to have a tight contract when you sign up, bid and win. Good luck and keep the faith.

 

[bad25]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Here is Michael 's on the left, the auction items on the right.

it's so obvious that the signatures are fake.
pulesase, use common sense. anyway, I don't see a huge problem with MLB making money with false MJ's signatures. Money makes the world go round.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I don't see a huge problem with MLB making money with false MJ's signatures. Money makes the world go round.

You and the many of the people on this site think so too. Amazing how being charming, nice and a former employee of MJ makes you MAN OF THE YEAR around here. Reminds me of all the people who say Dr. Murray is such a nice guy too. Free passes to scam us, commit fraud, rip off fans hard earned money, and lose trust and faith in humanity.

 

[la_cienega]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I just checked that MJ/Autograph Magazine thread for the first. Oh My God...What a nightmare.

I hope the estate speak up on this... This is unacceptable! Why would MJ sign bottles of stain remover? Insanity.

And why would MJ ignore Tompkins? Everything is "Thanks Bush", "Love Bush"...No way. This is just too upsetting.

Here's one addressed to Tompkins & Bush

And one addressed to Tompkins

Tompkins did most of the sketches.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

This is beyond Julien's, this is a person who knowingly is smiling in your face, telling charming stories, posing for pictures with us, signing the book (his book!) you just bought for $50.

This sweet, never could harm a fly, person PURPOSELY forged Michael Jackson's name on papers, clothing, paint cans, whatever he could, passed them off as signed by Michael Jackson, wrote on iconic clothing and wanted these same fans to BUY these forgeries and clothing for thousands of dollars. What more proof do you people want? He is getting a pass on here because he is a nice little old man that worked for Michael for 25 years!!!!
Damn if a Jackson did this you would be celebrating and calling the FBI on Times Square. I cannot believe the bias here.

Open your eyes, stop making excuses. There was no prototype and those signatures are NOT Michael Jackson's. The Estate does not get a free pass either. They know fans are getting ripped off and fraud is going on and they don't care.

Yeah, why don't we just get rope and hang MB to the nearest tree, just like in old days in wild west when suspicion was enough reason to kill a man. Why don't we treat MB exactly the same as Michael was treated lat 20 years of his life. He was accused of something he didn't do, and was publicly humiliated and treated like a criminal, without having hard evidence. Not only that, but those accusations badly damaged Michael's reputation and his legacy, we might as well treat MB the same as Michael was.
It doesn't matter if we don't have all the evidence, other than suspicions.

I really don't like the way you are saying open our eyes and stop making excuses.
To me few suspicious signatures are not enough, I personally want more proof that signatures are fakes, other than somebody saying it in the internet, and I will not start participating in any mob mentality and screaming top of my lungs that MB is guilty before this signature thingy is properly investigated.

Note, Michael once said, "Please keep an open mind and let me have my day in court."
If we don't wait for more info regarding MB and signatures, we are no better than D Dimond and others that announced MJ guilty before his trial and they basically ruined his life with those accusations.
It is not even funny to think what some fans are willing to do and act in the name of Michael Jackson.

About the estate, they most likely know that there are fans that are getting ripped off every day one way or the other, but they are not in our disposal any time we need them. If they were, they would be the estate of Michael Jackson fans.
They are there to look after Michael's legacy and keep his estate afloat.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Here's one addressed to Tompkins & Bush

And one addressed to Tompkins

Tompkins did most of the sketches.

Michael did not write his N's and E's like this. But Michael Bush does.

 

[bouee]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

You and the many of the people on this site think so too. Amazing how being charming, nice and a former employee of MJ makes you MAN OF THE YEAR around here. Reminds me of all the people who say Dr. Murray is such a nice guy too. Free passes to scam us, commit fraud, rip off fans hard earned money, and lose trust and faith in humanity.

Who said MLB was man of the year ?? People are just saying you should have hard unquestionnable proof -in the legal sense - before publicly accusing someone. There is a difference between suspicion and proof.
Then I saw people trying to understand how MLB got to do that, if he is the one who did it, and if the autographs are fake.

Murray killed someone, which is way more serious than fraud. Please don't compare.