Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins & Bush /Update Controversy surrounding autographs

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Now I am more confused than before. First I thought Bush said Michael had more than one costume made, and he would use it and sign it back to Bush. I thought that after a performance, for example, Michael would sign something to Bush. Now it seems that was not the case, but while in Bush's house, a number of items were given to Michael to sign. That does not seem as though Michael said "Hey Bush have this" in that natural unplanned way when someone takes one of their items and give to another. Now for Bush to bring a bunch of things for him to sign, it means that Michael did not offer these items to Bush in a natural way. If my face is puffy because Klien did something to it and I am groggy, why would I all of a sudden offer you a bunch of my items and ask you to bring them to me for signature? So Bush lied when he made it seem that Michael just signed items back to him. Now I understand why they say "To Bush."


This video thing does not sound right--reminds me of Muarry's phone tape. So Michael is healing & signing a bunch of items and you take a video of him? Why? Whose idea was it to take the video and why did you have to give it to Juliens, if the signatures are Michael's. Why did Juliens need proof for those particular items. There is no video of the other items such as the shoes and Juliens accepted them, so why did they need a video of those items. It is just confusing.

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Now I am more confused than before. First I thought Bush said Michael had more than one costume made, and he would use it and sign it back to Bush. I thought that after a performance, for example, Michael would sign something to Bush. Now it seems that was not the case, but while in Bush's house, a number of items were given to Michael to sign. That does not seem as though Michael said "Hey Bush have this" in that natural unplanned way when someone takes one of their items and give to another. Now for Bush to bring a bunch of things for him to sign, it means that Michael did not offer these items to Bush in a natural way. If my face is puffy because Klien did something to it and I am groggy, why would I all of a sudden offer you a bunch of my items and ask you to bring them to me for signature? So Bush lied when he made it seem that Michael just signed items back to him. Now I understand why they say "To Bush."


This video thing does not sound right--reminds me of Muarry's phone tape. So Michael is healing & signing a bunch of items and you take a video of him? Why? Whose idea was it to take the video and why did you have to give it to Juliens, if the signatures are Michael's. Why did Juliens need proof for those particular items. There is no video of the other items such as the shoes and Juliens accepted them, so why did they need a video of those items. It is just confusing.

I agree it does sound bad for Bush. Come on now we knew something wasn't right from the get go...ok so we ,,,let me speak for myself..."I" was mad he was auctioning Michael's clothes to begin with....NOW we are hearing that the signatures may be fake...this whole thing STILL smells. If you look back through this thread our questions remained the same,..WHY didn't he sell these things when MJ was alive...and how is it MJ "gifted" him SO many items. Will we ever get a straight answer about this...probably not...unless someone can for sure "PUBLICALLY" say these are not MJ's signatures on these clothes...Julians needs to have those autographs verified and Bush needs to do the same. This whole situation reaks to me...it just does,

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Now I am more confused than before.

don't be confused because no one know for certain if such a video exists or if julien's actually said it or not. It's just allegedly said on a phone call which means there's no way to confirm or deny it. Furthermore it doesn't necessarily mean that he claimed they had videos of Michael signing everything. He might have seen him sign one of the items and be satisfied.

and finally there's more than one costume made.

 

[mdiegee210]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Those outfits cost Michael Thousands of Dollars to make, so Why would he give MB so many costumes?

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

don't be confused because no one know for certain if such a video exists or if julien's actually said it or not. It's just allegedly said on a phone call which means there's no way to confirm or deny it. Furthermore it doesn't necessarily mean that he claimed they had videos of Michael signing everything.

and finally there's more than one costume made.

..if you know. who said this phone call exists?

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Those outfits cost Michael Thousands of Dollars to make, so Why would he give MB so many costumes?

There you go^^. You see that is the question we asked from day one. Then, people said they went to the exhibition, and Bush was so sweet and really loved Michael, and that the items said "to Bush from Michael." As a result, those who were doubters began to say that if that statement was on it, then crazy Michael did gift ALL these items to Bush. Even the estate said Michael was very generous. I had come to terms with the whole thing and had moved on. Now it seems something if off. Even if only 1 item has a fake signature, it makes the whole auction questionable to me.

Why would Juliens know about the questions some have and not look into all the signatures before beginning the sale?

Ivy I realized the video, if it does exist, would not show michael signing everything. If this information is false too, I guess who ever made it up is using that trial defense that Michael had to be on something. It is more acceptable to say Michael was recovering from a treatment to explain why his signature is all the same and similar to Bush.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I've spent almost all afternoon reading this thread and I still don't know what to think because I don't know if I understood everything.

Someone please tell me If I got it right:

1) A standee with Michael's signature was acutioned, the problem is the standee shows the Triumph logo/stamp. According to court docs, Triumph came into the picture after Michael's passing.

2) Sebacious from Bravado answered an e-mail saying "the standee pictured was manufactured after Michael Jackson passed away"

3) The lots were signed with same pen on almost all the items.

4) There're rumors of Juliens having a video of Michael signing the lots while recuperating from medical issues as Bush' home.

5) Bush didn't answer the question about the signatures.

If I got all that correct, then I'm heartbroken.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I've spent almost all afternoon reading this thread and I still don't know what to think because I don't know if I understood everything.

Someone please tell me If I got it right:

1) A standee with Michael's signature was acutioned, the problem is the standee shows the Triumph logo/stamp. According to court docs, Triumph came into the picture after Michael's passing.

2) Sebacious from Bravado answered an e-mail saying "the standee pictured was manufactured after Michael Jackson passed away"

3) The lots were signed with same pen on almost all the items.

4) There're rumors of Juliens having a video of Michael signing the lots while recuperating from medical issues as Bush' home.

5) Bush didn't answer the question about the signatures.

If I got all that correct, then I'm heartbroken.

1. Yes, correct.
2. Yes, correct.
3. This is suspected, not verified.
4. This is heresay from someone in the autograph community, Steve Cyrkin, who called Darren Julien in a phone call to get a reason as to why the signatures did not look like Michaels. The video excuse was used, as well as the story that Michael used to rest at Michael Bush's house after visiting doctor's.
5. This is subjective. Bush has been banning people from his FB page who have questioned him. He has also stopped responding to emails and text messages addressing the issue. I asked him personally about it, respectfully, and he dodged the issue as to why they look different, instead focusing on the fact that Michael was a big signer of items.

I understand your pain and frustration.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

If I can briefly add to it

3. This is suspected, not verified.

mainly a black marker but there's also red pens, regular pens (that cannot be even seen on newspapers/magazines) and silver markers.

I can tell that permanent markers are quite common in signing autographs.

5. This is subjective. Bush has been banning people from his FB page who have questioned him. He has also stopped responding to emails and text messages addressing the issue. I asked him personally about it, respectfully, and he dodged the issue as to why they look different, instead focusing on the fact that Michael was a big signer of items.

I haven't got banned and did not receive a negative response - as of now- even though I expressed my request to ask about autographs in the upcoming Q&A. I personally think any banning and non-response is mainly due to how people approach to this matter. I have seen people send accusations and curses Bush's way and honestly I'm not surprised to hear such people are banned. I think people that approach the issue respectfully are okay.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I personally think any banning and non-response is mainly due to how people approach to this matter. I have seen people send accusations and curses Bush's way and honestly I'm not surprised to hear such people are banned. I think people that approach the issue respectfully are okay.

I got banned for LIKING Sandy's respectful request for an explanation. I never posted a comment on his page. He also has people sending him a list of people to ban.

 

[Vici]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

This is a mess!

Ive been away and had no idea that also the standee were the issue now. I really really hope he did not try to dupe the fans. Id be pissed and really dissapointed. Its good Bravo is involved so maybe they can investigate what's going on.

I have MLB on my facebook and I have never written him anything but Im checking his page now and see people still going at him and asking him questions re the signatures. I remember one fan asking him two or three weeks ago why he never fulfilled MJs wishes to have the clothes in a museum (remember that Karen Faye wrote on twitter that MJ had given the clothes to MLB to store away so they could later go in a museum).

He responded something like "Where did the story originate that MJ wanted his clothes in a museum"? So in other words he completely debunks the story that Michael had told him about a museum.

So much f-u-c-k-e-r-y going on

 

[marebear]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

This is sad if true. It's disrespectful to the people who bought the items but even more to Michael. He would never want anyone especially his fans scammed or tricked in any way. This whole thing reminds me of the guy who said that Michael gave him all his paintings and drawings etc. to him. All of them? Michael was generous but everything? He knew there was value to an artist's work and items they had.

I don't know why these things keep happening. Michael is always being used in some way. I won't make any conclusion yet until there is more info and confirmation. It's just sad that even in death Michael gets dragged into these things that he had nothing to do with.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I haven't got banned and did not receive a negative response - as of now- even though I expressed my request to ask about autographs in the upcoming Q&A.

Did you ask him about the signatures yet or that'll be in the Q&A?

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Did you ask him about the signatures yet or that'll be in the Q&A?

I'll be sending the questions tomorrow night and I'll include a Q about the autographs - especially the standee. We'll wait and see if we get a response or not.

 

[Aquarius]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I always thought the only reason Bush had this auctioning was for money not because he didn't have the resources to keep them. He could very well give it to the estate for a lesser value but anyway, what's done is done.

4. This is heresay from someone in the autograph community, Steve Cyrkin, who called Darren Julien in a phone call to get a reason as to why the signatures did not look like Michaels. The video excuse was used, as well as the story that Michael used to rest at Michael Bush's house after visiting doctor's.

Even when it annoys me when people make up stories just to try to prove something that's not true, I prefer this Cyrkin lying because the alternative is worst.

5. This is subjective. Bush has been banning people from his FB page who have questioned him. He has also stopped responding to emails and text messages addressing the issue. I asked him personally about it, respectfully, and he dodged the issue as to why they look different, instead focusing on the fact that Michael was a big signer of items.

That's not subjective. He didn't answer your question. You asked him in a civilized manner and he preferred to camouflage his answer.

I know people sometimes get kind of rude and really who wants to deal with them. I know he doesnt' have to answer to those questions but if he comes forward with the facts no one will bother him. Hope he doesn't chicken out of Q&A.

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I'll be sending the questions tomorrow night and I'll include a Q about the autographs - especially the standee. We'll wait and see if we get a response or not.

IF he avoids this question that is going to speak volumes. I hope he doesn't keep saying that Michael "gifted" him all these costumes. I know he doesn't HAVE to answer these questions at all...but some clarity from him would be nice.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

If anybody here purchased an item in the Tompkins & Bush auction, Autograph Magazine has a message for you:

http://live.autographmagazine.com/xn/detail/3524372:Comment:324912


If you are a winning bidder of anything in Julien's Tompkins & Bush sale, autographed or not, I recommend that you consider not paying for the items you won or for shipping until things are sorted out.

Since virtually all of the signed items in the auction are widely considered forgeries, that casts doubt on the unsigned items in the sale as well, and may taint them permanently, whether they're proven to be genuine and correctly represented or not. Even the genuine items in this sale may end of having a provenance that is considered less desirable, and that may affect their value.

Please feel free to email me at editor@autographmagazine.com if I can help you in any way.

And don't lose your love of collecting! You can learn how to collect safely here on Autograph Magazine Live. It's not hard!

Sincerely,
Steve Cyrkin
Editor & Community Manager
Autograph Magazine & Autograph Magazine Live

 

[mj_forever]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

i think mb is just bullshitting. I don't doubt he was very fond of michael, but greed for money can be so overpowering.

amen.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

IF he avoids this question that is going to speak volumes. I hope he doesn't keep saying that Michael "gifted" him all these costumes. I know he doesn't HAVE to answer these questions at all...but some clarity from him would be nice.

If we are being realistic I won't hold my breath for an answer. Given the seriousness and allegedly Juliens &Bush considering a defamation lawsuit and/or possibility of a fraud lawsuit by fans or buyers , I would expect every party to go silent and stay silent.

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

If we are being realistic I won't hold my breath for an answer. Given the seriousness and allegedly Juliens &Bush considering a defamation lawsuit and/or possibility of a fraud lawsuit by fans or buyers , I would expect every party to go silent and stay silent.

yes you are probably right. So the only way we are going to get any straight answers about this is to wait for the information as it comes out from a lawsuit. This is really sad isn't it. That here we are 3 plus years after Michael's death and we are still seeing things like this go on. It makes you wonder HOW Michael put up with what he did in his life. smdh

 

[diana79]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Does anyone know why the LA Gear standee in the auction was a full rectangle, but the LA Gear standees being sold online are all cutouts around MJ?

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Does anyone know why the LA Gear standee in the auction was a full rectangle, but the LA Gear standees being sold online are all cutouts around MJ?

The full packaging is for shipping and the item's stability. I know for mine, I had it standing complete for a while with the background intact. Then when I moved, I finally pushed it through the background and now it is just the standee of Michael posing - no more background.

The ones they are posting online come with the background when shipped, but I guess they just show the final product alone because that is really what you are buying - his silhouette.

 

[diana79]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

The full packaging is for shipping and the item's stability. I know for mine, I had it standing complete for a while with the background intact. Then when I moved, I finally pushed it through the background and now it is just the standee of Michael posing - no more background.

The ones they are posting online come with the background when shipped, but I guess they just show the final product alone because that is really what you are buying - his silhouette.

Thanks - that makes sense.

Is the one with MJ sitting on the car the one that you have? I don't have room for a standee at my place, but, if I did, that's the one I would choose.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Is it possible for you to post a close up of the logo / trademark/ license section?

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

If the responses from Bush is true, then that hints of a cover up. We all remember how Gibbs introduced that song he and Michael sang. He first introduced the video showing them singing it in a studio, then the song was made available to buy. There was no sneakiness there.

Bush knows people are asking about the signatures, now what owner would not immediately come forward attesting to the authenticity of the signatures. Most rational people would immediately place a statement on their facebook, or send a notice to the fans, since he courted them when he wanted to sell his book. Why these same fans do not deserve a sincere explanation immediately? Why skirt around the issues? The whole thing makes no sense. This is the second time a project with the word "Michael" in it is causing me a pain in the neck.

If he responds immediately, then there would be no need for disgruntled fans to be disrespectful to him on his facebook. I do not condone attacking him, but he brought this on himself by being evasive. His evasiveness has also brought in a negative element into the fan-Bush-Michael relationship now, which is sad.

 

[myosotis]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

If anybody here purchased an item in the Tompkins & Bush auction, Autograph Magazine has a message for you:

http://live.autographmagazine.com/xn/detail/3524372:Comment:324912


If you are a winning bidder of anything in Julien's Tompkins & Bush sale, autographed or not, I recommend that you consider not paying for the items you won or for shipping until things are sorted out.

Since virtually all of the signed items in the auction are widely considered forgeries, that casts doubt on the unsigned items in the sale as well, and may taint them permanently, whether they're proven to be genuine and correctly represented or not. Even the genuine items in this sale may end of having a provenance that is considered less desirable, and that may affect their value.

Please feel free to email me at editor@autographmagazine.com if I can help you in any way.

And don't lose your love of collecting! You can learn how to collect safely here on Autograph Magazine Live. It's not hard!

Sincerely,
Steve Cyrkin
Editor & Community Manager
Autograph Magazine & Autograph Magazine Live

I understand that it is usual for auction houses to take credit card details when you register to bid. The payment will often be taken automatically (up to a certain limit), after the sale.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I understand that it is usual for auction houses to take credit card details when you register to bid. The payment will often be taken automatically (up to a certain limit), after the sale.

Apparently Steve didn't read the terms on Julien's either. They are requiring a 10 day for payment and charging late fees and storage and handling fees after that. In other words the money you are supposed to pay is gonna increase the longer you wait.

ps: if I was Julien's and if I had any proof about the authenticity of the items, I would have hit Steve with a lawsuit. With his "do not pay" post he's advocating for a financial loss to Julien's and Bush.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Is it possible for you to post a close up of the logo / trademark/ license section?

I don't have the one where he is sitting on the car, I have the one like the auction, the LA Gear license plate one. I think you want the one with the car close up right?

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Is the one with MJ sitting on the car the one that you have?

No, I have the license plate one, like in the auction. I really want the Billie Jean and the Bad Tour ones, but I don't see them around town. I probably have to get them on the internet.

 

[myosotis]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Is it possible for you to post a close up of the logo / trademark/ license section?

I know this question wasn't directed to me, but just for interest, I purchased the first standee design that was available in the UK after we lost Michael, sometime in the summer / early autumn of 09. Only the Billie Jean was available then in the UK. I bought this from a commercial supplier, not a pre-owner on ebay. (I couldn't affford the shipping for the USA models!).
This is the logo on mine:

http://[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/img2064fq.jpg/][/URL]