Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
actually I would prefer to see the one on yours - if possible.
actually I would prefer to see the one on yours - if possible.
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Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins & Bush /Update Controversy surrounding autographs
- Thread starter Vici
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Memefan
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
I support this wholeheartedly ...and if there is anything I (a non buyer) can do to help ...I sure would. Once again, MichaelJackson fans taking the lead.
i believe, we (more specifically those who did buy items from the so-called Bush Collection) should take this off the blogs & fan sites and to proper channel. Let's no do like Jacksons...all talk no action.
OT anyone's else find it strange that the pieces were signed to Bush only...none to Tompkins? I think this could be another clue...that they were signed AFTER MJ / Tompkins' death
and Ivy, I doubt Juliens' will file a lawsuit against anyone...,they are probably in on it. They'd rather we all go away and sweep this under the rug...
Finally....What is the action plan? Should we send a formal, published letter to Juliens'? They will keep ignoring us until we take it to the media....just Sayin'
I think the only thing Juliens' would fear is bad publicity ...like the mafia they have much to hide..,not only MJ related. I don't think they want folks sniffing around too closely...if you catch my drift.
I support this wholeheartedly ...and if there is anything I (a non buyer) can do to help ...I sure would. Once again, MichaelJackson fans taking the lead.
i believe, we (more specifically those who did buy items from the so-called Bush Collection) should take this off the blogs & fan sites and to proper channel. Let's no do like Jacksons...all talk no action.
OT anyone's else find it strange that the pieces were signed to Bush only...none to Tompkins? I think this could be another clue...that they were signed AFTER MJ / Tompkins' death
and Ivy, I doubt Juliens' will file a lawsuit against anyone...,they are probably in on it. They'd rather we all go away and sweep this under the rug...
Finally....What is the action plan? Should we send a formal, published letter to Juliens'? They will keep ignoring us until we take it to the media....just Sayin'
I think the only thing Juliens' would fear is bad publicity ...like the mafia they have much to hide..,not only MJ related. I don't think they want folks sniffing around too closely...if you catch my drift.
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ItsALLforLOVE
Proud Member
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
I hope Bush has some good answers about these autographs and where that standee came from. He seems like a good guy who can be trusted, but this standee issue doesn't look good.
I hope Bush has some good answers about these autographs and where that standee came from. He seems like a good guy who can be trusted, but this standee issue doesn't look good.
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qbee
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
The bad thing is , If this the signatures are fraud and the costumes were defaced its going to devalue Michael's costumes. Which will make them more likely to get into the wrong hands at a cheaper price .. at least high end collectors and museums have the means to care for them preperly and will protect thier investment.
Then another sad thing is it's going to destroy the life and reputation of MLB who was a very dear friend and loyal dedicated employee of Michael's. He worked hard in service to Michael . That cant be denied. Maybe the death of Michael and then his partner/ loved one Dennis Tompkins put him over the edge causing him to fear loosing everything. I think he felt a great loss and fear. ( I m just pondering to make some sense of this trying to understand what could cause him to do this. I dont think he is a evil or even greedy person by nature. ) Non the less it will be a very sad sad day for everyone if this if proven to be true. I think as long as fans respecfully keep requsting an explaination the doors will remain open to communicate. Sooner or later they will have to respond. The Estate is probably investigating and looking into this , but wisely will not make any public statment unless these claims are proven.
Legal action
I think the only way to get all the information and proof out is if someone who bought the merchandise brings a lawsuite based on all the scandle saying it is depreciating the value of thier purchase. That they demand proof the signatures are legit. That will force MLB and Juliens to bring proof to the table. The Estate can't sue MLB or Juliens or take any action to my knowledge. They are not a party to the auction and have no legal claim to the costumes in MLB posession. Now if later it can be proven the sigs are fraud then the estate might be able to challenge MLB's claim to ownership and sue him for damages .. but thats not going to bring the costumes back becuase all they can get is monitary relief. So I doubt they will persue that. I think any legal action will be between Juliens MLB and the present buyers. Im very sad over all of this and still hold out for Hope becuase the aternative for me just hard to bear
The bad thing is , If this the signatures are fraud and the costumes were defaced its going to devalue Michael's costumes. Which will make them more likely to get into the wrong hands at a cheaper price .. at least high end collectors and museums have the means to care for them preperly and will protect thier investment.
Then another sad thing is it's going to destroy the life and reputation of MLB who was a very dear friend and loyal dedicated employee of Michael's. He worked hard in service to Michael . That cant be denied. Maybe the death of Michael and then his partner/ loved one Dennis Tompkins put him over the edge causing him to fear loosing everything. I think he felt a great loss and fear. ( I m just pondering to make some sense of this trying to understand what could cause him to do this. I dont think he is a evil or even greedy person by nature. ) Non the less it will be a very sad sad day for everyone if this if proven to be true. I think as long as fans respecfully keep requsting an explaination the doors will remain open to communicate. Sooner or later they will have to respond. The Estate is probably investigating and looking into this , but wisely will not make any public statment unless these claims are proven.
Legal action
I think the only way to get all the information and proof out is if someone who bought the merchandise brings a lawsuite based on all the scandle saying it is depreciating the value of thier purchase. That they demand proof the signatures are legit. That will force MLB and Juliens to bring proof to the table. The Estate can't sue MLB or Juliens or take any action to my knowledge. They are not a party to the auction and have no legal claim to the costumes in MLB posession. Now if later it can be proven the sigs are fraud then the estate might be able to challenge MLB's claim to ownership and sue him for damages .. but thats not going to bring the costumes back becuase all they can get is monitary relief. So I doubt they will persue that. I think any legal action will be between Juliens MLB and the present buyers. Im very sad over all of this and still hold out for Hope becuase the aternative for me just hard to bear
xthunderx2
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
IMO...IF this is proven fraud....that makes Michael Bush a snake just like the rest of them. People used Michael throughout his whole life for what they could get off of him for free and then make money off of him and his name. IF this whole situation is true then Michael Bush WAS NOT as good a friend to MJ as everybody thought...because IF he can do something like this after MJ passed I am afraid to see what he did to MJ when he was alive that we don't know about. There are NO passes given to people that will do stuff like this IMO...if they KNOWINGLY tried to dupe the public and the fans then WHY should they get a pass? Now if someone did something UNKNOWINGLY that is different..the person can be forgiven. But...IF this situation is what it appears to be then there was thought that went into this..and ALOT of dishonesty and deception. If Mr. Bush IS innocent of what he is being accused of then people OWE him A HUGE apology...this yet to be proven though. And yes sometimes things DO appear to be what it is they are not. I would hate to think that after 25 years of MB being MJ's friend and designer that HE of all people would do something THIS sneaky and under handed. But then again I think about MJ's OWN family...they certainly have had NO problem trying to continue to use MJ after death...and they were his flesh and blood....WHY should MB be any different?. Who knows maybe he is...we will just have to wait and see how this plays out. I HOPE that this is all just a huge misunderstanding because I would HATE to think MB was just like everyone else that was in MJ's life.
IMO...IF this is proven fraud....that makes Michael Bush a snake just like the rest of them. People used Michael throughout his whole life for what they could get off of him for free and then make money off of him and his name. IF this whole situation is true then Michael Bush WAS NOT as good a friend to MJ as everybody thought...because IF he can do something like this after MJ passed I am afraid to see what he did to MJ when he was alive that we don't know about. There are NO passes given to people that will do stuff like this IMO...if they KNOWINGLY tried to dupe the public and the fans then WHY should they get a pass? Now if someone did something UNKNOWINGLY that is different..the person can be forgiven. But...IF this situation is what it appears to be then there was thought that went into this..and ALOT of dishonesty and deception. If Mr. Bush IS innocent of what he is being accused of then people OWE him A HUGE apology...this yet to be proven though. And yes sometimes things DO appear to be what it is they are not. I would hate to think that after 25 years of MB being MJ's friend and designer that HE of all people would do something THIS sneaky and under handed. But then again I think about MJ's OWN family...they certainly have had NO problem trying to continue to use MJ after death...and they were his flesh and blood....WHY should MB be any different?. Who knows maybe he is...we will just have to wait and see how this plays out. I HOPE that this is all just a huge misunderstanding because I would HATE to think MB was just like everyone else that was in MJ's life.
loveforever
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
I am sure the estate can easily find out if this standee is made after michael's death. Most likely they have already known the answer but still remain silence. I hope the estate will stand for the truth.
I am sure the estate can easily find out if this standee is made after michael's death. Most likely they have already known the answer but still remain silence. I hope the estate will stand for the truth.
ItsALLforLOVE
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
I am sorry, but if he is found to have done these vile acts of forgery AND defaced these iconic clothes to somehow prove that Michael gave him these items, then, he himself, and whoever he aligned with to commit this fraud, DESTROYED THEIR OWN LIFE AND REPUTATION! Dear friends do not do this and this is the farthest away from LOYAL that you can get.
The silence is deafening. We have asked respectfully -- for over a month now for an explanation. Michael could not have signed that standee and the signatures are fake, fake, fake.
I am sorry, but if he is found to have done these vile acts of forgery AND defaced these iconic clothes to somehow prove that Michael gave him these items, then, he himself, and whoever he aligned with to commit this fraud, DESTROYED THEIR OWN LIFE AND REPUTATION! Dear friends do not do this and this is the farthest away from LOYAL that you can get.
The silence is deafening. We have asked respectfully -- for over a month now for an explanation. Michael could not have signed that standee and the signatures are fake, fake, fake.
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Nathy MJ
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
I think the only way for us to know if this standee is a prototype or not, is if we could see the march 2009 bravado contract to verify if the contract also allowed the production of non-This is it material.
I think the only way for us to know if this standee is a prototype or not, is if we could see the march 2009 bravado contract to verify if the contract also allowed the production of non-This is it material.
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
You can't. Business deals are under protective order.
You can't. Business deals are under protective order.
Justthefacts
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
If it turns out that the signatures are fake their is no excuse for it. Michael Bush was a friend of Michael's for many years was so close to Michael that he dressed Michael for his funeral. He saw people use and take advantage of situations for their own profit. So I am sorry no amount of grief can excuse this
If it turns out that the signatures are fake their is no excuse for it. Michael Bush was a friend of Michael's for many years was so close to Michael that he dressed Michael for his funeral. He saw people use and take advantage of situations for their own profit. So I am sorry no amount of grief can excuse this
ItsALLforLOVE
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
Yes, the Estate knows because they are the ones who contracted with Bravado to put the Triumph logo on Michael Jackson merchandise, including the standee's AFTER Michael passed.
See Paragraph #4 here: http://www.rosespeaks.com/wp-conten...-Estate-Witness-Statement-Felix-Sebacious.pdf
The Estate also had to know about the clothes and the signatures on them and the other items that Michael supposedly signed, but chose to ignore the blind truth that those signatures are NOT Michael Jackson's. The Estate did not protect Michael's fans from fraud.
Yes, the Estate knows because they are the ones who contracted with Bravado to put the Triumph logo on Michael Jackson merchandise, including the standee's AFTER Michael passed.
See Paragraph #4 here: http://www.rosespeaks.com/wp-conten...-Estate-Witness-Statement-Felix-Sebacious.pdf
The Estate also had to know about the clothes and the signatures on them and the other items that Michael supposedly signed, but chose to ignore the blind truth that those signatures are NOT Michael Jackson's. The Estate did not protect Michael's fans from fraud.
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
What does Michael's signature look like? I have seen it but I would like to see a side by side comparison. I feel confused.
In my opinion I think if you have nothing to hide then you have no problem answering questions. Maybe Bush thinks he doesn't need to justify anything but then it is making the problem worse. He should just answer the questions and confront it.
You know what I don't like? When something looks fishy or different people put the blame on Michael saying he was "under the influence" or whatever they say. It's just encouraging the image of Michael that people have of him. That he is not control and can't do anything. They think that that excuse is believable enough that people won't question anything. I like to think Michael was a stronger person than the weak person people try to portray him as.
What does Michael's signature look like? I have seen it but I would like to see a side by side comparison. I feel confused.
In my opinion I think if you have nothing to hide then you have no problem answering questions. Maybe Bush thinks he doesn't need to justify anything but then it is making the problem worse. He should just answer the questions and confront it.
You know what I don't like? When something looks fishy or different people put the blame on Michael saying he was "under the influence" or whatever they say. It's just encouraging the image of Michael that people have of him. That he is not control and can't do anything. They think that that excuse is believable enough that people won't question anything. I like to think Michael was a stronger person than the weak person people try to portray him as.
ItsALLforLOVE
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
Michael's signature on legal documents.
Michael's signature on legal documents.
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ItsALLforLOVE
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
Here is Michael 's on the left, the auction items on the right.
Here is Michael 's on the left, the auction items on the right.
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ItsALLforLOVE
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
Someone else mentioned above too, but notice how Michael Jackson, when he signed, he respected the space, you rarely saw him write on the face, he knew his fans wanted to see his face :wub: and the Bush fakes are all over the place, just disrespecting Michael.
Someone else mentioned above too, but notice how Michael Jackson, when he signed, he respected the space, you rarely saw him write on the face, he knew his fans wanted to see his face :wub: and the Bush fakes are all over the place, just disrespecting Michael.
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
It also looks neater the ones for sure Michael signed. More care to them.
It also looks neater the ones for sure Michael signed. More care to them.
loveforever
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
Thanks for the compare. Michael Bush's signatures look all the same and signed at the same time. But the left Michael's past signatures clearly shows it's from different times. Yes, the left Michael signatures and all the legal documents signatures look neater. So we are not only supposed to believe Michael gifted him hundreds of items but also believe Michael gave him all at once. Oh and Michael was drugged, and Michael bush video shooting the whole thing, and Tompkins was totally left out, and Michael came back from heaven to sign the standee for Bush to auction a good price.
Thanks for the compare. Michael Bush's signatures look all the same and signed at the same time. But the left Michael's past signatures clearly shows it's from different times. Yes, the left Michael signatures and all the legal documents signatures look neater. So we are not only supposed to believe Michael gifted him hundreds of items but also believe Michael gave him all at once. Oh and Michael was drugged, and Michael bush video shooting the whole thing, and Tompkins was totally left out, and Michael came back from heaven to sign the standee for Bush to auction a good price.
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ItsALLforLOVE
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
:busted: Yep, good summation of this fraud. Sad.
:busted: Yep, good summation of this fraud. Sad.
myosotis
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
I am concerned about the signatures, but the 'circumstances of acquiring a standee' puzzle me. They are such large things ( even when new and packed ie half size) that you have to consciously know that you have one, and that you are storing it. It is not something that you could get hold of and not know when you got it. I am surprised that this got 'caught up with' pre-June 09 items, without being noticed, as if it is truly not a 'sample' then it would have arrived quite some time after June 09. Just thinking out loud......
I am concerned about the signatures, but the 'circumstances of acquiring a standee' puzzle me. They are such large things ( even when new and packed ie half size) that you have to consciously know that you have one, and that you are storing it. It is not something that you could get hold of and not know when you got it. I am surprised that this got 'caught up with' pre-June 09 items, without being noticed, as if it is truly not a 'sample' then it would have arrived quite some time after June 09. Just thinking out loud......
Nadia1981
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
I'm so confused about this. On one hand I don't want to believe the possible betrayal by Bush but if I'm honest and look at the signatures side by side I can't deny they are ever so slightly different.
For instance, the sloppy star on Bush's items. I've never seen a MJ sig with such a messy star at the end of his name. And it seems MJ's signature tends to lean to the left and Bush's items show sigs that lean more towards the right.
I'm the first one to acknowledge handwritings and signatures change during the year. God knows I have tried out a lot of different ones lol. But when I do try out a new handwriting, I really have to be thinking about it while I'm writing you know. I have to be consciously wanting to write some letters differently. But when I have to write quickly, like I imagine MJ's sigs were done, I instinctively go back to my natural handwriting. I don't even know if this makes sense to anyone hahahaha.
I'm so confused about this. On one hand I don't want to believe the possible betrayal by Bush but if I'm honest and look at the signatures side by side I can't deny they are ever so slightly different.
For instance, the sloppy star on Bush's items. I've never seen a MJ sig with such a messy star at the end of his name. And it seems MJ's signature tends to lean to the left and Bush's items show sigs that lean more towards the right.
I'm the first one to acknowledge handwritings and signatures change during the year. God knows I have tried out a lot of different ones lol. But when I do try out a new handwriting, I really have to be thinking about it while I'm writing you know. I have to be consciously wanting to write some letters differently. But when I have to write quickly, like I imagine MJ's sigs were done, I instinctively go back to my natural handwriting. I don't even know if this makes sense to anyone hahahaha.
Memefan
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
What a mess!! The silence from Bush & Juliens is DEAFENING.
can anyone list here what is being done NOW & who's in charge? Has the estate been officially contacted? Are we going with a formal fan letters to Juliens & Bush and Estate, asking for a PUBLIC explanation?
Holiday is near, we need to get the ball rolling if we need to get to the bottom of this. We really must do all we can to understand what happened (fraud or no fraud) this could impact MJ's legacy in a very negative way, if people start questioning EVERYTHING that is released on the market. Let's not forget, we still have the "Cascio stench" over our head.
those fans who are still defending MB...I have no words for them. Doing more harm to MJ's good name ..their displaced loyalty is sickening to me. We should be loyal to Michael...and Michael JACKSON only. The hell with his conniving employees.
if the Jacksons can get a lawyer to work for free for their fake AEG case, why can't we? The other problem we have is the California fans who are usually very active, but now have stars in their eyes and are supporting MB. They are closer to the action & could have gotten some news from Juliens, but noooooooo...they are palling around with these two like they are Michael Jackson himself.
so VERY FRUSTRATING.
What a mess!! The silence from Bush & Juliens is DEAFENING.
can anyone list here what is being done NOW & who's in charge? Has the estate been officially contacted? Are we going with a formal fan letters to Juliens & Bush and Estate, asking for a PUBLIC explanation?
Holiday is near, we need to get the ball rolling if we need to get to the bottom of this. We really must do all we can to understand what happened (fraud or no fraud) this could impact MJ's legacy in a very negative way, if people start questioning EVERYTHING that is released on the market. Let's not forget, we still have the "Cascio stench" over our head.
those fans who are still defending MB...I have no words for them. Doing more harm to MJ's good name ..their displaced loyalty is sickening to me. We should be loyal to Michael...and Michael JACKSON only. The hell with his conniving employees.
if the Jacksons can get a lawyer to work for free for their fake AEG case, why can't we? The other problem we have is the California fans who are usually very active, but now have stars in their eyes and are supporting MB. They are closer to the action & could have gotten some news from Juliens, but noooooooo...they are palling around with these two like they are Michael Jackson himself.
so VERY FRUSTRATING.
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Aquarius
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
If people are going to believe Michael was under any kind of med influence while signing off belongings, it will look extremelly bad on Bush and not much on Michael. A decent person doesn't accept gift while the gifter is under med influence. I believe Bush will give an answer, my concern is why he didn't yet.
If people are going to believe Michael was under any kind of med influence while signing off belongings, it will look extremelly bad on Bush and not much on Michael. A decent person doesn't accept gift while the gifter is under med influence. I believe Bush will give an answer, my concern is why he didn't yet.
ItsALLforLOVE
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
Most of the discussion is going on at the Autograph Magazine Live! website under the thread called
[h=1]Michael Jackson Signing Styles in Julien's Tompkins and Bush Sale[/h]It is very long, but if you read the most recent postings at the end, you will see that buyers are starting to come forward and are trying to get their money back and maybe start a class-action.
I have a letter that I wrote and forwarded to local law enforcement to investigate. I have also contacted Bush, Darren Julien to explain. I have also written to the Bravado and Advanced Graphics people.
Just write a letter asking them to explain the provenance of the items - clear up how Michael could have signed a Post June 25, 2009 item and to explain how Michael signed these items - over the years, one day, when? Etc.
Most of the discussion is going on at the Autograph Magazine Live! website under the thread called
[h=1]Michael Jackson Signing Styles in Julien's Tompkins and Bush Sale[/h]It is very long, but if you read the most recent postings at the end, you will see that buyers are starting to come forward and are trying to get their money back and maybe start a class-action.
I have a letter that I wrote and forwarded to local law enforcement to investigate. I have also contacted Bush, Darren Julien to explain. I have also written to the Bravado and Advanced Graphics people.
Just write a letter asking them to explain the provenance of the items - clear up how Michael could have signed a Post June 25, 2009 item and to explain how Michael signed these items - over the years, one day, when? Etc.
StellaJackson
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
Deja vu.
Deja vu.
Memefan
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction
I just checked that MJ/Autograph Magazine thread for the first. Oh My God...What a nightmare.
I hope the estate speak up on this... This is unacceptable! Why would MJ sign bottles of stain remover? Insanity.
And why would MJ ignore Tompkins? Everything is "Thanks Bush", "Love Bush"...No way. This is just too upsetting.
Now I wish I had bought something, anything, just so I'd have a valid & personal reason to go after them.
I just checked that MJ/Autograph Magazine thread for the first. Oh My God...What a nightmare.
I hope the estate speak up on this... This is unacceptable! Why would MJ sign bottles of stain remover? Insanity.
And why would MJ ignore Tompkins? Everything is "Thanks Bush", "Love Bush"...No way. This is just too upsetting.
Now I wish I had bought something, anything, just so I'd have a valid & personal reason to go after them.
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