Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins & Bush /Update Controversy surrounding autographs

[ivy]

I doubt very much they sent that reply. Can you please show the real letter Julien sent in reply .. Plus Have you seen the actual reply Julien sent ? Thanks

this is the alleged reply

Michael Doyle forwarded to me your email correspondence below regarding the items you purchased from the recent auction held on December 2, 2012.

I am truly disheartened to hear that your faith in Julien’s Auctions has been shaken by what I can only characterize as misinformed and ill-motivated people without the requisite experience or expertise to speak on these issues. I can assure you that Julien’s Auctions, at all times throughout its history, has always acted in good faith and with the utmost integrity in its auctions and the items sold therein. And, we fully stand behind Michael Bush.

Having said that, I can assure you that our relationship with our clients – and your satisfaction with our service – is of the paramount importance to us. Accordingly, we will be happy to cancel your purchase and fully refund your money. We sincerely hope that this gesture will remove any concerns or issues you may have, particularly as to Julien’s Auctions, and that we will continue to enjoy a long and mutually beneficial relationship.

As always, if you should have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact us.”

Thanks
Martin J Nolan

Executive Director

Julien's Auctions

 

[xthunderx2]

this is the alleged reply

Michael Doyle forwarded to me your email correspondence below regarding the items you purchased from the recent auction held on December 2, 2012.

I am truly disheartened to hear that your faith in Julien’s Auctions has been shaken by what I can only characterize as misinformed and ill-motivated people without the requisite experience or expertise to speak on these issues. I can assure you that Julien’s Auctions, at all times throughout its history, has always acted in good faith and with the utmost integrity in its auctions and the items sold therein. And, we fully stand behind Michael Bush.

Having said that, I can assure you that our relationship with our clients – and your satisfaction with our service – is of the paramount importance to us. Accordingly, we will be happy to cancel your purchase and fully refund your money. We sincerely hope that this gesture will remove any concerns or issues you may have, particularly as to Julien’s Auctions, and that we will continue to enjoy a long and mutually beneficial relationship.

As always, if you should have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact us.”

Thanks
Martin J Nolan

Executive Director

Julien's Auctions

My question is..does Julians generally offer people back their money in other auctions as well...is this a standard practice for them? Even if there is not controversy about the items.?

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^Well if they responded to this person how come the fan here who bought something said she had no response from them? Maybe they contacted her later today?

Maybe Juliens decided it is better to refund rather than to have some big blown up mess in the public. How is Juliens going to explain the standee? One can only imagine how many deals auction houses make with owners who have questionable things to sell. I am sure things like this happen all the time.

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^Well if they responded to this person how come the fan here who bought something said she had no response from them? Maybe they contacted her later today?

Maybe Juliens decided it is better to refund rather than to have some big blown up mess in the public. How is Juliens going to explain the standee? One can only imagine how many deals auction houses make with owners who have questionable things to sell. I am sure things like this happen all the time.

I dont know the answer to any of the question you ask..lol. IMO..what I would think is IF Julians found out that those autographs were fake..then yes I can understand them refunding the peoples money before this thing got huge and blown out of perportion because they would want to keep it as quiet as possible. BUT...if they don't know yet...WOULD they still offer the person back the money because this is common practice for them under some rules or regulations that they have about their auctions? I dont know their policy I was hoping Ivy could help.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Many companies would offer refunds , there's nothing surprising here. (I was once able to return an item 10 months later - well past thir acceptable return period). Julien's terms of services included a 5 year guarantee for the buyers for the authenticity and a return option for which they might have requested 2 expert reports. It seems they are going with the route of easy returns.

 

[Richard Lecocq]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

The Estate has not signed any contract with JA, but they did nothing to stop or handle/be involved in the organization of these auctions so that they are geared with NO controversy.
I think we all should be careful with rephrasing. in this life, you have what is written and said, and as many interpretations as many people who will read/listen.

We have just learnt that one buyer at the dec 2 auction got refund from JA. Proofs have been collected for the standee, let's see what is next.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^I thought some pages back Ivy posted the policy and one of the options was to offer the buyer the money back. I will have to click back some pages to see the post again.

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Many companies would offer refunds , there's nothing surprising here. (I was once able to return an item 10 months later - well past thir acceptable return period). Julien's terms of services included a 5 year guarantee for the buyers for the authenticity and a return option for which they might have requested 2 expert reports. It seems they are going with the route of easy returns.

Thank you Ivy. So this action STILL doesn't tell us where they stand on this issue yet. Thank you for answering this. I want this issue to be resolved so badly for the positive.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Julien's warrants the "Attribution", as defined above and subject to the exclusions listed below, of a lot for a period of five years from the date of sale and only to the original purchaser on record at the auction

5 year guarantee to the original buyer

If it is determined to our satisfaction that the "Attribution" is incorrect, the sale will be rescinded if the lot is returned to the Julien's Auctions warehouse facility in the same condition in which it was at the time of sale.

return / cancel sale option

In order to satisfy Julien's that the "Attribution" of a lot is indeed incorrect we reserve the right to require the purchaser to obtain, at the purchaser's expense, the opinion of two experts in the field, mutually acceptable to Julien's and the purchaser, before we agree to rescind the sale under the warranty.

they might require expert reports before a return / cancel sale or they might not

Should a sale be rescinded and the purchase price paid (final successful bid price, plus the buyer's premium), it is specifically understood that this will be considered the sole remedy. It is exclusive and in lieu of any other remedy available as a matter of law, or in equity.

if you get a return / sale is cancelled you cannot pursue other legal options.

----------------

So possibility of an easy return and possibility of a return with expert opinion had been in their terms of service all along

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

If money is refunded and no one gets experts to look at the signatures, then I guess we will never know the truth, and this will be resolved quietly. If Juliens is backing the authenticity of the signatures, does it mean their experts will most likely say the signatures are legit? Experts can be like Dr. White, being swayed by the side that hires them.

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

The Estate has not signed any contract with JA, but they did nothing to stop or handle/be involved in the organization of these auctions so that they are geared with NO controversy.
I think we all should be careful with rephrasing. in this life, you have what is written and said, and as many interpretations as many people who will read/listen.

We have just learnt that one buyer at the dec 2 auction got refund from JA. Proofs have been collected for the standee, let's see what is next.

I thought The EState had released a statement before the auction took place saying that MB gave them pieces that they may be interested in? I also understand that The Estate said they THEY are NOT owner of these pieces and that the "Owner" can do with them as they please...seeing as they ARE the owners. ..that would mean that The Estate has NO say on what the owner does with their property...being if they held onto it or chose to sell it. It is my understand that "The Estate" has no imput here., Maybe I am understanding wrong.??

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

If money is refunded and no one gets experts to look at the signatures, then I guess we will never know the truth, and this will be resolved quietly. If Juliens is backing the authenticity of the signatures, does it mean their experts will most likely say the signatures are legit? Experts can be like Dr. White, being swayed by the side that hires them.

as far authentication goes - whether it's handwriting, autograph or voice etc. it's experts opinions and none of these are 100% certain. There will be instances when experts would give conflicting reports. Like I said there's already one expert saying it's legit, 2 saying they aren't. It's already a he said - she said situation. So I wouldn't expect any "truth" from any expert report. Again the most important and significant thing that could be definitive is the standee.

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

as far authentication goes - whether it's handwriting, autograph or voice etc. it's experts opinions and none of these are 100% certain. There will be instances when experts would give conflicting reports. Like I said there's already one expert saying it's legit, 2 saying they aren't. It's already a he said - she said situation. So I wouldn't expect any "truth" from any expert report. Again the most important and significant thing that could be definitive is the standee.

The bolded part...I DIDN'T know that....wow. Yes I agree...we need to wait about confirmation about the standee...wow..all this really is to much..smh.

 

[la_cienega]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

The Estate has not signed any contract with JA, but they did nothing to stop or handle/be involved in the organization of these auctions so that they are geared with NO controversy.

Why would they be responsible for this auction or any auction? They don't get to decide where Bush sells his stuff.

The most they can do is for auctions of items which have legal grey areas, like the selling of his medical records.

 

[loveforever]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I doubt very much they sent that reply. Can you please show the real letter Julien sent in reply .. Plus Have you seen the actual reply Julien sent ? Thanks

I am just being sarcastic. Of course they wouldn't say like that. But what I wrote is what they meant in that letter, isn't it?

 

[Ashtanga]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

WOW! The whole thing turned crazy. :blink:

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I see what your posting but I think you misunderstood my question...I know those are the signatures that are suppose to be Michael's from the auction I want to see a comparison to BUSH's signature..something we KNOW is Bush...maybe something HE signed to a fan. I want to compare HIS OWN NAME or letters that he may have written that may LOOK the same as the one he is saying is MJ signature. I hope this clarifies things. Thank you.

The NN's and E's

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

The NN's and E's

oh my...that last signature with Those "N"s. To me...this is a problem. . IMO....I see MB signature in BOTH..the one's you posted earlier and now these. I don't really know what to say right now. Thank you for posting this. This is really sad.

 

[Memefan]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I don't think the estate should say anything either at this point. They didn't own the things in the auction. This is about Bush and Julien here. If there is a fraud and they can sue them for some kind of damages then they should. It's one thing for Bush to own the items and do what he wants but to sign anything and pass it off as Michael signing it is a different story.

They should DEFINITELY step in to protect MJ & the public.

If MLB did fake those signatures, maybe MJ never gave him the clothes to begin with. He might have defrauded the estate of these historic pieces...so...yes, the estate should definitely step in.

Unless, they don't care about protecting fans & public from potential crooks & scammers. Howard Mann & the Jacksons aren't the only threat to MJ's legacy.

There is a long line of people wanting to cash out at MJ's expense.

 

[Memefan]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^Well if they responded to this person how come the fan here who bought something said she had no response from them? Maybe they contacted her later today?

Maybe Juliens decided it is better to refund rather than to have some big blown up mess in the public. How is Juliens going to explain the standee? One can only imagine how many deals auction houses make with owners who have questionable things to sell. I am sure things like this happen all the time.

Exactly. That;s why I said these houses are like the mafia... they want everything swept under the rug.

I think fans should definitely get the media onboard... and blow this wide open. If this turn out to be a scam, i am pretty sure Juliens was involved or knew about it all along. Turning down those 20%+ commissions ain't easy.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Thanks Ivy but about the expert that said yes they were legit, do you know which pieces he looked at, and what he compared the signatures to. Did he look at documents Michael signed to make the comparisons. Also, did he look only at clothing or objects as well. Maybe he is right, in that the pieces he looked at were really signed by Michael. Are all experts looking at the exact same pieces with the signatures on them? I mean, there are several pieces with signatures, and I assume they will only examine a few?

PS I did not realize that Bush signed Michael photos for you guys at the book signing ^^. I find that odd. Did he sign them because they made the clothes? To me it is more appropriate for Michael to sign something like this, and Bush sign his book. Oh well...

At this point, I am going to say that I feel some scam has taken place, and that a number of people are involved. I feel some items are signed by Michael and some are not. However, I must admit, that I still do not have any concrete evidence.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

As of now all the experts are sitting across their computers and looking to the pictures from the catalog - the very same ones we look- and giving an opinion. As I mentioned before that's not the actual way to give an opinion. It actually requires a close examination of the item in real life looking to multiple factors such as strokes, pressure points etc. Anyway my point was simply even among experts there are conflicting opinions.

I think fans should definitely get the media onboard... and blow this wide open

As we have seen from the past experience , at most the media will mention a controversy, would print a denial statement from the other side and call it a day. Major media wouldn't print criminal accusations without proof.

 

[ItsALLforLOVE]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Like I said there's already one expert saying it's legit, 2 saying they aren't.

Who is the expert saying "it's" legit? I did not know about this.

I know of just three authentication companies who looked at the Tompkins & Bush items via scans & photos, online catalog, say they are in their opinion that the signatures are NOT LEGIT, and they are:

P.A.A.S. - Michael Frost http://live.autographmagazine.com/xn/detail/3524372:Comment:313834

REAL - Roger Epperson Authentication - Roger Epperson http://live.autographmagazine.com/xn/detail/3524372:Comment:312787

PSA/DNA - http://live.autographmagazine.com/xn/detail/3524372:Comment:313361

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Todd Mueller - the one others says to be in Julien's pockets. and Mueller says the ones you have listed have an axe to grind against Juliens.

Ps: PSA /DNA hasn't been vocal about this issue. They just allegedly gave a quick opinion for $10 bucks. I used them before, they don't back up quick opinions, don't provide any guarantees . In other words unless they examine the item up close, they won't give a written report or an official opinion.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

So Ivy someone will have to send their product to the expert with some Michael sample signatures, pay the fee, and then get a better analysis, since simply looking at the items on the computer is not the best way to conduct an analysis. Yet since Todd is saying they are legit and the rest who they claim have an ax to grind are saying fake, the best thing is to take your money and run.

Could it be that those who bought the clothes, know it is really Michael's so they do not care about the signature being fake? I mean, we have several pictures showing Michael wearing the clothes.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

There's no need to get to those extremes. What happened to Michael was pure hell and it shouldn't happen to anyone. I'm sure Bush has an explanation and he must have a reason why he didn't give it . Maybe he might think, he just has to answer to the buyers.

I differ in your comparison of Michael & Bush. When Michael was wrongly accused, he came forward and said he was innocent of any wrong doing. Michael spoke.

How Michael was treated by the public and the press was brutal, no man/woman should ever have to go through such a treatment.

I just cannot understand the hypocrisy of some people that they think Michael is the only one that should be treated like human, but same courtesy is not extended to other people. There were even fans that tweeted to members of media offering a scoop regarding "fake signatures", if that is not hanging a man before investigation, I don't know what is, and believe you me, that is not all what fans has done.

Everyone is entitled for defend themselves, including MB. It may not come immediately when you want it, but it will eventually.
I cannot say why Bush will not say anything about signatures yet, but Morinen had a talk with him (posted on news section) and this is what MB told: He said he understood, and that the situation would be cleared through proper and official sources

To me it looks like there is more to come, so we should wait before we announce him guilty.

If we are going to get answers that clears the issue with signature, what those fans are going to do to undo the damage they have done to Bush? They cannot take back the nasty words they posted in the internet, they cannot withdraw the tweets they posted about Bush's alleged forgery. But it is all ok, because what they did was all for love for Michael. I bet Michael would be bursting with bride that he has such nice fans.

 

[MJTheKing]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

This is a hot mess... I'm speechless!!!

 

[LastTear]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Ivy, I know you have asked the question, do we have an idea when the Q&A will be answered? If I was Bush and if I was innocent I would want this cleared up ASAP.

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Todd Mueller - the one others says to be in Julien's pockets. and Mueller says the ones you have listed have an axe to grind against Juliens.

Ps: PSA /DNA hasn't been vocal about this issue. They just allegedly gave a quick opinion for $10 bucks. I used them before, they don't back up quick opinions, don't provide any guarantees . In other words unless they examine the item up close, they won't give a written report or an official opinion.

seems as all those that have given an opinion about this be it "yay or nay" seem to have their own personal agenda..so who knows if what these companies are saying about these signatures are even the truth...I have come to the mindset that I don't think we are EVER going to find out the REAL truth. Especially with people like these folks "authenticating"...smh

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

So Ivy someone will have to send their product to the expert with some Michael sample signatures, pay the fee, and then get a better analysis, since simply looking at the items on the computer is not the best way to conduct an analysis. Yet since Todd is saying they are legit and the rest who they claim have an ax to grind are saying fake, the best thing is to take your money and run.

You might want to check this link to see a proper procedure : http://www.psacard.com/services/auto_authentication_process.chtml

Well as of now none of these experts whether they are pro or con had made a proper examination that's one thing and If there are conflicting opinions that clearly affects the chances of a win if this goes to arbitration or trial.

best example is the recent AEG documents leak. AEG had hired an expert that said the copier lines on the documents show that those items were copied and KJ's lawyers office. KJ's lawyers experts said however he omitted to explain some other copier lines and the quality of the documents weren't good enough for a definitive opinion. In other words there were conflicting opinions. What happened? Judge couldn't determine who was the guilty party.

Could it be that those who bought the clothes, know it is really Michael's so they do not care about the signature being fake? I mean, we have several pictures showing Michael wearing the clothes.

that's one of the reasons why I said to only limit to this damages to the signed pictures and not the memorabilia items or clothes. For example that standee is $30 in value and it's sold $2100 because it's signed. So if the signature is fake you are looking to a $2070 scam there. However some items are unique or collectible in nature so they have more value regardless of their signed or not.

Ivy, I know you have asked the question, do we have an idea when the Q&A will be answered? If I was Bush and if I was innocent I would want this cleared up ASAP.

No idea and I won't hold my breath. This is being done in connection with his book, he can omit it.