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Michael Jackson To Unleash World Premiere Experience At Billboard Music Awards
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WhoIsIt89
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Allusio;4012304 said:
But you didn't. What's at 3:57? The only difference the video shows in body form is the difference in height. And Michael was wearing heels. I simply respectfully asked you to point out these differences to me, you couldn't then resulted to imply that I don't know Michael from an impersonator, which the blatant implication of so is just incorrect.
Valentino does walk the stage like VMJ though. VMJ walks more like Earnest Valentino, than he does Michael Jackson.
whateverhappens50;4012301 said:
This is ignorant. What crew of Estate haters? Who here is an Estate hater? I don't contribute to the Estate or they're effort to get Michael out of debt? Are you freaking kidding me? I bought that piece of shit album they disrespectfully called "Michael". Either I'm crazy, or that was actually my 10 dollars I gave as contribution to the Estate to actually go to Theatre to see This Is It. I've bought the DVD twice, standard edition and a limited edition that I found not too while ago. I bought the Blu Ray just for the "extra" extras. Either I'm crazy, or that wasn't my money they got from my purchase of Bad 25 Special edition...Hell, me purchasing Xscape, the more expensive deluxe edition, was just a figment of my imagination...Because I'm an Estate hater and have made no contributions to support them and most of all, Michael's children..And perhaps, just perhaps, Michael wanted to do one last tour, like many close to have claimed, so his children can see him perform live? Of course he knew he'd get paid, of course he wanted to get paid for his performance, but perhaps money, wasn't the sole reason for him deciding to come back for us? Nah no way right!?!? Because the guy was completely broke and simply couldn't figure out any other way to make money, like an album, or Las Vegas residency.....NEXT!!!!
@Allusio again, this isn't about mistakes, you're making more inaccurate claims there buddy. Clearly I gave them a chance to correct their mistake by continuing to purchase the products they put out after Michael. And for a while, and again, you can actually search through my posts and see that they attest to this, for a while I supported, defended, and even said on this very forum numerous times that they've rectified said mistake, for me with the release of Bad 25. When people were shitting on that album, I responded everytime by saying it was a quality effort and project and that made up for the Michael album, and that they honored us and our wishes by including the demos Michael were working on, audio of the Wembley show, and even the DVD of the Wembley show. I've said numerous times that I enjoy the Xscape album, and that I thought the only flaw that album had was the Leave Me Alone sample on APWNN. Which is the one song that I mentioned earlier, that I had an issue with, even with the complete removal of everything Michael outside of vocals that they called "contemporizing". So clearly, I've allowed them to make "one mistake", contrary to your belief.
But yet, this is another mistake of Michael magnitude. Not so much the performance itself, not so much the idea, as again, ALL of my previous posts before the performance in regard to matter, are me telling others how I don't think it's "unethical", like many were saying, and that I thought was kind of cool and hoped more would come out it. It's not even so much the execution of it all. It's the fact that they expect us to just believe that instead the image of an impersonator, we got an image of Michael. It's the fact that they insult our intelligence by first telling us no impersonators were used, and now expecting us to believe that it was a total CGI image. That's the mistake, and if I see a mistake like this, I don't simply have to eat it up and move along because you say so. I'm allowed to be critical of it, and I'm allowed to voice that.
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LastTear
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Firstly I'm not the one taking offence, until now. Maybe one day if I'm really lucky I can be like you and know everything including the exact staging of TII even though we never saw the whole show. And maybe then I will lord it over others and judge them.
You have completely missed the whole point I was trying to make. There is nowhere where I said that this performance was a reinterpretation of any past performance, and I'm glad it wasn't. You have a problem with Michael being placed of a throne - well I don't, I believe that's where he should be. you have a problem with people worshiping at his feet, again I don't.
We don't get on, we don't like each other's ways - so it is best for the sake of this forum if we just don't address each other again.
Florin Daniel
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Wait... where is that come from?
I know Valentino have meet Michael for the first time in 2002 at the Thriller Killer Party
WhoIsIt89
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Last shot is DEFINITELY Earnest Valentino. Lol, if they weren't so dedicated to attempting to insult our intelligence instead of just being honest, this would be so hilarious.
bluesky
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Annita;4012225 said:
[h=1]Stephen Rosenbaum (I)[/h]Visual Effects
Stephen Rosenbaum was born on October 26, 1965 in Tacoma, Washington, USA. He is known for his work onForrest Gump (1994), Avatar (2009) and Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991). See full bio »
Tygger
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Last Tear, I simply and successfully debunked your argument; tis all.
If your response is to express latent venom for me instead of a debunking my argument(s) you are free to as Qbee took the opportunity as well. I do not take your dislike for me personally but, please do not suggest you know how I feel about you, whatever that was sitting on a throne, or a female at its feet (the latter two not being Michael's decision but, the decision of others). You do not know me at all. You only know you do not like my posts and I have never had an issue there.
I will continue to respond to posts as I see fit as that is my right. Feel free not to respond to my posts particularly arguments by me that cannot successfully be debunked by you.
Adding: actually you still have a chance. There must be footage of Michael performing as he supposedly did on Billboard as that is where the so called performance was derived from.
If your response is to express latent venom for me instead of a debunking my argument(s) you are free to as Qbee took the opportunity as well. I do not take your dislike for me personally but, please do not suggest you know how I feel about you, whatever that was sitting on a throne, or a female at its feet (the latter two not being Michael's decision but, the decision of others). You do not know me at all. You only know you do not like my posts and I have never had an issue there.
I will continue to respond to posts as I see fit as that is my right. Feel free not to respond to my posts particularly arguments by me that cannot successfully be debunked by you.
Adding: actually you still have a chance. There must be footage of Michael performing as he supposedly did on Billboard as that is where the so called performance was derived from.
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bluesky;4012375 said:
His job is to basically look at something and "mmm thats okay or "thats crap". I don't think going by his IMDB he has worked as a Graphics Artist since the early 90's, anyway fun fact, he worked on Back To The Future 2, which has E'Casanova play Michael Jackson, fun stuff.
Petrarose
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Yes it was definitely a challenging project and from reading their statements you get that they know the work is not perfect and will continue to improve it. The illusion served its purpose.
octavio001331
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octavio001331
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I dont think so.
CrazyVegasMJ
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I feel like some guys are taking this way over the top...
The estate isn't trying to "insult our intelligence"... C'mon guys it was an "illusion" for cryin out loud..
Obviously they know and everyone in the world knows MJ is gone..
Anyone in the their right mind knows that it wasn't the real MJ dancing on stage or even the real MJ being recorded for the illusion to dance on stage..
It's all part of the effect of the illusion..
If we were to ask David Copperfield how he made the Statue of Liberty disappear (I think that was it) he's obviously not going to tell us.. And by him not giving away how he made it happen isn't him "insulting our intelligence"...
Look, if the estate doesn't want to say exactly how they made it look as realistic in many ways as it did, then that's fine.. They're not saying "this is something MJ really did before he died and we're now showing you!"
Give it a break..
The estate isn't trying to "insult our intelligence"... C'mon guys it was an "illusion" for cryin out loud..
Obviously they know and everyone in the world knows MJ is gone..
Anyone in the their right mind knows that it wasn't the real MJ dancing on stage or even the real MJ being recorded for the illusion to dance on stage..
It's all part of the effect of the illusion..
If we were to ask David Copperfield how he made the Statue of Liberty disappear (I think that was it) he's obviously not going to tell us.. And by him not giving away how he made it happen isn't him "insulting our intelligence"...
Look, if the estate doesn't want to say exactly how they made it look as realistic in many ways as it did, then that's fine.. They're not saying "this is something MJ really did before he died and we're now showing you!"
Give it a break..
qbee
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Its possible they used motion capture to animate virtual MJ - Like the skeleton in Ghosts. But based on the interviews of them discussing the CGI and trying to get the muscles correct etc, I believe it is a full CGI. I don't believe they just filmed a dancer/impersonator in costume for the VM. but "Motion capture" Just as they used MJ to animate the skeleton. Which would be the best way to animate it . IMO
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lom kit
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they claime this dancing Virtual Michael Jackson is totaly CGI from head to toe. no impressator is used. and Birchey posted screens where that guy's face is clear to see.
what do you call this?
its the same story as with the Cascio songs. He does sound like Michael, so it is Michael for them and sony.
Here, they hired a company to create an illusion. it does look like Michael, so it is Michael for them and the average watcher.
But, we hear closely. We see closely. Frame by frame. eventhogh, its easy to be seen even in normal motion, what was done.
download the HD video i posted in 2000watts. you can perfectly see, that this is real human being with real clothes, dancing.
no motion capture at all.
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bluesky
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Tygger
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Last Tear, you are free to say and believe as you wish. As many have stated here regarding the Estate and their Billboard spectacle, saying something does not make it fact and not everyone will believe it simply because a certain party says so.
Petrarose
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Gee I see we have our usual experts again, now in the Watts section. Guys is there an occupational expert that is not represented on this board? This is the most amazing forum with the same people being experts in about 10 different fields. I find this amazing, and in no way is this representative of the general population. Even our organs are involved. We have expert eyes--the ability to see things that mainstream experts can't see.
No its just common sense, that and a little research too.
Ramona122003
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I have been reading this thread for awhile and I have to ask, what are you guys arguing about? Are you arguing whether virtual Michael was done with motion-caption or was it all CGI? I hope we are not still talking about them putting a head on a imposter since if they were going to do that, they wouldn't need dance videos as references. They also specially said that Michael was on a plane with multiple layers, which is unnecessary if they just used an imposter.
Now that I think about, putting a Michael head on an imposter may not work. With Tupac, he wasn't really moving just bobbing his head and even then the head floated slightly. Having an imposter who moved and danced across stage with a Michael head probably couldn't happen because the head wouldn't be able to keep up with the body.
Now that I think about, putting a Michael head on an imposter may not work. With Tupac, he wasn't really moving just bobbing his head and even then the head floated slightly. Having an imposter who moved and danced across stage with a Michael head probably couldn't happen because the head wouldn't be able to keep up with the body.
Petrarose
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That was funny^^. The thing about this thread is that it has no focus. To me right after the airing it began with anger at the quality of the work and that it was not like Michael in image or action. Then other things were involved like the human with a CGI head; then at the same time it was no CGI head but the face of an impersonator (
Petrarose
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That was funny^^. The thing about this thread is that it has no focus. To me right after the airing it began with anger at the quality of the work and that it was not like Michael in image or action. Then other things were involved like the human with a CGI head; then at the same time it was no CGI head but the face of an impersonator (
Okay, I will try to lay this all out very clear.
Since the airing of the performance, many fans knew something wasn't right, especially since the Estate and the people making this claim the thing isn't an Impersonator and that its a CGI Michael. Okau everyone who seems to be okay with the Estate and Pule's explantion have sat back and done nothing to research this, meanwhile on the crazy side of MJ fandom........................
Evidence to Suggest, it was a live shot of a body double with a "half" CGI/Photo composite face. Who was the Impersonator, people went and did some research
The Moves
Alot of fans especially those "2000 Watts" types and people who study Michael very closely knew from the second VMJ walked down those stairs it wasn't his dance moves, a little over a day later, someone found him.
Another video highlighting the movements.
Michael moved a specific way and no one on this planet could recreate that, but people who emulate Michael also have certain ways of performing moves and get into a habit of performing them their own way, the 2 videos above show Earnest Valentino was the Impersonator, we were lied too.
The Body
After people were claiming the body was full CGI, first thing I did was take a trip to some CGI forums online. Some people are saying who are we to be experts in this and that...........well lets see what actual CGI Experts think.
CGISociety Forum
"A "holographic" Michael Jackson appeared at the Billboard Music Awards a few days ago. It looks like a 3D animated head with a human dancer that's been projected onto a flat screen." - AJ -> CGI portfolio http://aj1.cgsociety.org/
"I just happened to switch over during a Cosmos commercial and saw this. Looked like what it was: a filmed dancer with a cgi face very poorly matched to the body."
"It didn't look so much CGI as it looked cobbled together from stills and re-animated, perhaps in 2D. And when I said the head was a poor match, it wasn't really the motion that was wrong, but the angle of the face to rest of the head/body that made it seem "off" - and the lighting was way off." - Richard Green -> CGI portfolio http://artbot.cgsociety.org/
"The quivering projection screen didn't bode well and when I saw the 3D MJ I had to try hard to suppress my laughter. It was pitiful, borderline offensive. I guess the fans who adored him were just so grateful to see "him" again that it didn't bother them." - Telemachus -> CGI portfolio http://www.nightfall-design.com/
There is no one who works on CGI that I have read that has even mentioned the possibility of the body being CGI. So no I am not an expert in CGI but I went out to find people who were. I didn't need to do this myself as a keen eye will take notice of the way fabrics move, shadows form.......and possibly at the start of the performance the female next to VMJ touches against his jacket sleeve, again showing this was filmed on set with the other dancers. The Body was real we were lied too.
The Face
Okay, following on from the above opinions that this was a poorly matched CGI/2d composite, its pretty clear after watching the video in HD, that this was a composite of 2d MJ pictures, with elements of Earnest Valentino's face left behind. The reason MJ looked a little off to some fans wasn't just because the likeness was off in places, but also because the likeness of MJ changes, they have used photos from Bad -> HIStory, meaning as Michaels head moves they change era's in his look. If you pause the video at some points you can even recognize the photos the 2D composite was taken from. Also as I posted above, they didn't even bother changing the impersonators face in some shots as I showed in these screencaps......
Anyone who has ever seen Earnest Valentino will tell you this is him. We were lied to.
A Few last Things
The clothing, Stylist: Michael Bush (Michael Jackson) why are they saying he designed the clothes for Michael Jackson, when its clearly not MJ? Anyhow we can see from the latest behind the scenes video this........
There is your impersonator, in EXACTLY the same design clothing as VMJ, except a different colour scheme. Obviously as VMJ performs a majority of the performance with a black background, it was not an option to wear a full black outfit, hence the colourful clothes. Earnest Valentino, on set, where are the motion tracking markers? no he is wearing real clothes, as the video we see from VMJ is simply him.
"The likeness of Michael was shot on a stage, then the face was digitally modified to match Michael as closely as possible. The extra lighting effects for the dancers flanking Michael to the left and right were all part of the ancillary lighting effects that made the projection pop."
http://www.arena3d.com/
One more important thing, in Damien Shields article he wrote this "Sources involved in the creation of this performance, all of whom signed strict non-disclosure agreements and therefor must remain unnamed, have confirmed this for me." I asked Damien about this, I trust him 100% and he has never ever lied to me in all the years I have known him.
The Future
Could they recreate a Michael Jackson performance? I will sidestep the argument about "Ghosts" and the motion capture as they may not have this and it might not be viable or cost effective to convert the 18 year old tracking into modern software. But they could create an almost realistic CGI model that moves like Michael, almost certainly. This could be done as simply as hand animation, similar to 2d Animation, placing tracking points on MJ, like his hands feet and knee joints, we have footage of Michael performing the same moves over and over again from almost every angle you could imagine, let alone what The Estate has at their fingertips. The face could have been easily recreated by laser scanning any of the hundreds of face casts Michael had lying around throughout the years, and even readily available on ebay, you could make your own.
Would this be easy? No, would it be worth it, is Michael Jackson worth it? Yes. I can tell you what we got was possibly the easiest, most cost effective and quickest way for them to create this illusion.
We don't have an Agenda, simply to know the truth behind all of this, which as we dig deeper is slowly being revealed. If you don't want to hear the truth, sidestep the posts, but in order to side with the BS we have been told you first need to rationalise all the above. Thank you
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Ashtanga
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You want to know?
I love to see everyone talking about MJ. I love to see that he is at the top (as always). I love seeing how much he is being cheered by people. I love to see how their music is being played. I'm loving seeing everyone celebrating Michael. :woohoo: This shows that it is unique and that no one will be able to take its place. He will always be the King!!!! :heart:So.... >>>>
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WhoIsIt89
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Okay, I will try to lay this all out very clear.
Since the airing of the performance, many fans knew something wasn't right, especially since the Estate and the people making this claim the thing isn't an Impersonator and that its a CGI Michael. Okau everyone who seems to be okay with the Estate and Pule's explantion have sat back and done nothing to research this, meanwhile on the crazy side of MJ fandom........................
Evidence to Suggest, it was a live shot of a body double with a "half" CGI/Photo composite face. Who was the Impersonator, people went and did some research
Anyone who has ever seen Earnest Valentino will tell you this is him. We were lied to.
A Few last Things
The clothing, Stylist: Michael Bush (Michael Jackson) why are they saying he designed the clothes for Michael Jackson, when its clearly not MJ? Anyhow we can see from the latest behind the scenes video this........
There is your impersonator, in EXACTLY the same design clothing as VMJ, except a different colour scheme. Obviously as VMJ performs a majority of the performance with a black background, it was not an option to wear a full black outfit, hence the colourful clothes. Earnest Valentino, on set, where are the motion tracking markers? no he is wearing real clothes, as the video we see from VMJ is simply him.
Oh snap :lol: Great find in that video. That pretty much does it.
And just one more time, because some people still don't seem to understand, no one ever expected to see Michael come back to life. But the simple fact is, there are simply better ways they could've went about putting Michael on stage, they COULD'VE made a full CGI image, but it's obvious they didn't. Therefore the whole issue is, don't advertise or portray this as, "Michael like we've never seen them before", when really because of their own laziness, we didn't really see Michael at all, and all we got was the image of an impersonator prancing and dancing around on stage in in MJ-like clothing.
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