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The problems with Invincible

HIStoric said:
I've seen people go "but Dangerous is technically the same length as Invincible and no-one complains about the length of Dangerous!"
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I've never heard anyone say that. but then again, I've never heard anyone say that Invincible is too long, either :D
 
Michaels Lover said:
how can you say an album is "too long"? if you think it's too long, don't listen to all the songs, simple?
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That's not really what people mean when they say an album is too long...
An album can drag on at points unnecessarily, whereas things could have been edited/cut to flow better overall, in general.
 
HIStoric;4132627 said:
Well yeah, sure, you could take a break but you really shouldn't have to. A great album is able to deliver the right amount of songs that have the right length to them, you shouldn't feel like the album is dragging on and wonder when the next song will come on. It's a delicate process for the artist to get right and Michael was generally able to balance it very well on his adult solo albums.

I've seen people go "but Dangerous is technically the same length as Invincible and no-one complains about the length of Dangerous!". It's true that Dangerous runs the same length as Invincible, but it doesn't feel dragged out like Invincible does at times. The flow and pacing on Dangerous is so much better at times and I feel the arrangement of tracks is superior, which is a factor. When it comes to Invincible, I feel like the concept of "less is more" would've worked better for Michael, and perhaps some rearranging of tracks.
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Let me reiterate to you:

This is totally open to subjectivity.

There is not a definition of what makes an album great. Factors, such as right amount of songs, songs’ length, songs’ order, total duration, work different for different albums.

Regarding ‘Invincible’, the problem comes down to the lower quality (rather than the sequence) of the ballads/mid-tempo songs that are included on the second half of the album. I never heard anyone to complain about its first half which includes almost the same amount slow/mid-tempo tracks.
 
mj_frenzy;4132660 said:
Let me reiterate to you:

This is totally open to subjectivity.
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I know. I literally said that in my post.

mj_frenzy;4132660 said:
There is not a definition of what makes an album great. Factors, such as right amount of songs, songs’ length, songs’ order, total duration, work different for different albums.
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Of course different factors work for different albums. There is 'no one size fits all' and I never said that.

I said "A great album is able to deliver the right amount of songs that have the right length to them". What the "right amount" of those factors is will vary for each album, just like it'll vary for each film, and unfortunately I feel Invincible doesn't get these factors right. Dangerous, on the other hand, does. I also don't really have to say these are not the only factors that come into making a great album.

Of course, as with everything subjective like art, some people will be fine with Invincible's flow and pacing. Others won't. I've seen people on both sides. However, it is a common criticism I see of the album, not just by fans but by critics as well.

mj_frenzy;4132660 said:
Regarding ‘Invincible’, the problem comes down to the lower quality (rather than the sequence) of the ballads/mid-tempo songs that are included on the second half of the album. I never heard anyone to complain about its first half which includes almost the same amount slow/mid-tempo tracks.
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Yeah I agree, that is a problem with Invincible. Keeping in mind that I haven't stated all my criticism of Invincible in that post you quoted. I have said before that while Invincible contains some of his greatest songs (Threatened), it also contains some of his worst songs.

I have though seen people complain about the placement of the first three tracks, how they overwhelm the listener by having three completely all-out tracks at the beginning. I don't know if that bothers me that much, though I can see where they're coming from though. Another note, I do remember getting Unbreakable and Invincible confused when I first starting playing the album years and years ago, they sounded very similar to me for the first few listens.

I'd give the album a 3/5.
 
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HIStoric;4132664 said:
I said "A great album is able to deliver the right amount of songs that have the right length to them". What the "right amount" of those factors is will vary for each album, just like it'll vary for each film, and unfortunately I feel Invincible doesn't get these factors right. Dangerous, on the other hand, does. I also don't really have to say these are not the only factors that come into making a great album.
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Playing devil’s advocate, someone could claim that the first seven tracks of ‘Dangerous’ tend to sound almost identical (as opposed to only the first three songs from ‘Invincible’).

HIStoric;4132664 said:
Of course, as with everything subjective like art, some people will be fine with Invincible's flow and pacing. Others won't. I've seen people on both sides. However, it is a common criticism I see of the album, not just by fans but by critics as well.
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‘Invincible’ was totally disparaged by critics in its entirety & in every possible way.

But, what bothered me most in those critics’ reviews was their distasteful connotations about specific songs’ themes (‘The Lost Children’, for example).

HIStoric;4132664 said:
Yeah I agree, that is a problem with Invincible. Keeping in mind that I haven't stated all my criticism of Invincible in that post you quoted. I have said before that while Invincible contains some of his greatest songs (Threatened), it also contains some of his worst songs.
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Exactly!

By all accounts, ‘Invincible’ is his most imbalanced album.

Lastly, aside imbalance issues, I often tend to believe that MJ’s only actual involvement in that album was to record his vocals.
 
mj_frenzy;4132668 said:
Playing devil’s advocate, someone could claim that the first seven tracks of ‘Dangerous’ tend to sound almost identical (as opposed to only the first three songs from ‘Invincible’).
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Perhaps. I never felt that way though when I first got the CD and the only song I was familiar with was RTT.

mj_frenzy;4132668 said:
Exactly!

By all accounts, ‘Invincible’ is his most imbalanced album.

Lastly, aside imbalance issues, I often tend to believe that MJ’s only actual involvement in that album was to record his vocals.
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A problem with Invincible often cited by others is the fact that there were simply too many people involved. You take a look at the credits for Invincible, as opposed to Bad or Dangerous and it's much more crowded on Invincible than the other two.

9/11 songs on Bad were written solely by Michael, as was half of HIStory. Dangerous had a handful of songs written solely by Michael, the other songs written by Michael (bar one) only featured another person or two. The other two songs had pretty much no involvement by Michael. Then you look at Invincible and well, yeah. I can't say I know how much he was involved with those songs lyrics-wise, but there is a significant increase in the amount of other writers involved.

Now I'm not saying that simply because a song has many writers/producers on it that it's automatically bad (there are a number of MJ songs over his career that feature many writers and are great), but I do find with Michael, more often than not, less tends to be more.

However, production-wise, I know MJ was more involved. I remember reading in Eddie Cascio's book about how when he was working on Invincible, he was always trying to find sounds that were brand-new. I think I recall a part where they threw stuff down the stairs just to see what sound that would make, then I imagine they would record it and play with it digitally from there on.
 
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A few people have already done this, so I might as well jump on the bandwagon, and make my own Invincible track list

1. Unbreakable
2. Heartbreaker
3. Invincible
4. Don't Walk Away
5. 2,000 Watts
6. Speechless
7. You Rock My World
8. The Lost Children
9. Whatever Happens
10. Threatened
 
I dont have a problem with the slow songs or "filler" as some people see them. I love all the songs but they just could have sounded better production wise.

I'd love to know how it would have sounded had Michael produced the album ENTIRELY on his own. Would he have held back Another Day, APWNN, Xscape, Blue Gangster, She Was Lovin Me?
 
Can someone please list ALL the Invincible era demos, outtakes and unreleased songs please.
 
MattyJam said:
I don't think that's a fair assumption to make.


I know there's certainly a few song that were mostly written by outside songwriters with MJ just adding his name to the credits (Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, YAML and 2000 Watts being the most obvious culprits). But there is no proof to suggest that Michael wasn't involved in the creation of songs like Unbreakable, Heartbreaker, Privacy, Threatened, YRMW and Invincible. And he single handedly wrote The Lost Children and Speechless.
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Yes this. I also would like to add that MJ was heavily invovled in Break Of Dawn. The writers demo sounds noothing like the finished track.
 
we cannot deny that even though songs like 2000 watts, The Lost Children, You Are My Life and speechless are great songs - they are not the most 'radio friendly' tracks... He was working on songs at the time that would have given the album more radio opportunity.. (Blue Gangster, The Way You Love Me, Fall Again) for example...

And considering the time of the albums release We've Had Enough could have been a big hit.. Even received radio play and promoted as a single and later put on as bonus track(s) to Invincible, where the beautiful songs that would have been traded out for can be put back in...

Also heartbreaker does not sell the album well with the 3 opening tracks... it was not a good segue from track 1 and track 3.. just was not a good fit there. (not saying song is bad)
 
analogue said:
A few people have already done this, so I might as well jump on the bandwagon, and make my own Invincible track list

1. Unbreakable
2. Heartbreaker
3. Invincible
4. Don't Walk Away
5. 2,000 Watts
6. Speechless
7. You Rock My World
8. The Lost Children
9. Whatever Happens
10. Threatened
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I like this i just might do this.
 
mj_frenzy;4132668 said:
Lastly, aside imbalance issues, I often tend to believe that MJ’s only actual involvement in that album was to record his vocals.
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MattyJam;4132669 said:
I don't think that's a fair assumption to make.


I know there's certainly a few song that were mostly written by outside songwriters with MJ just adding his name to the credits (Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, YAML and 2000 Watts being the most obvious culprits). But there is no proof to suggest that Michael wasn't involved in the creation of songs like Unbreakable, Heartbreaker, Privacy, Threatened, YRMW and Invincible. And he single handedly wrote The Lost Children and Speechless.
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I agree, that's not a fair assumption at all. I know Privacy has several writers (Michael was one of them), but you would think that he had the biggest influence on that song, being what it's about. and like you said, he wrote The Lost Children, and that was also a very important song to him, we all know how he feel about children

and this is what he said about Speechless: You'll be surprised. I was with these kids in Germany, and we had a big water-balloon fight - I'm serious - and I was so happy after the fight that I ran upstairs in their house and wrote "Speechless". Fun inspires me. I hate to say that, because it's such a romantic song. But it was the fight that did it. I was happy, and I wrote it in its entirety right there. I felt it would be good enough for the album. Out of the bliss comes magic, wonderment, and creativity.

and You Are My Life is about Prince and Paris, though it also has several writers (Michael one of them), it was still something personal to Michael

so yeah, he definitely was much more involved than just to "record his vocals". also, just because he had more songwriters on this album, doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't more involved than that. he was always very involved in creating his albums, and he was a perfectionist. so he wouldn't just let someone else do all the work, and then just record it and do nothing else. I don't believe he would do that. though he might not have been as much involved in the song writing as to how much he wrote, he still worked together with the people, writing the songs. and those songs he had no involvement in writing at all, he still had to "approve" the songs to be on the album...he's always had outside writers for his albums, Invincible just has more. and I still think he was very much involved in the making of the album as a whole
 
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The Lost Children is absolute rubbish, one of the worst songs MJ ever recorded/put on an album.

You couldn't pay me to listen to that song now. It's songs like that that give critics plenty of ammo. Nonsensical song.

Only songs worthy from Invince are WH, Butterflies and Don't Walk Away. Some are 'meh' (YRMW, Cry etc) and some are just poor (Privacy).
 
One of the main things I would have done is cut out the You Rock My World intro with Chris Tucker. That was so stupid, pointless and annoying.
 
It's funny the things they cut or leave on. They cut that romantic, sensual opening on LIMF on some versions, yet they leave the silly Chris Tucker and Macauley Culkin openings-that don't have anything to do with the song itself.
 
analogue said:
One of the main things I would have done is cut out the You Rock My World intro with Chris Tucker. That was so stupid, pointless and annoying.
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I agree :lol: ...Other than that, I find Invincible to be a perfect album.

I would have also loved to see songs from Invincible be performed live. We only got You Rock My World (30th Anniversary), Speechless (Small part in This Is It) and The Lost Children (Small part while he was walking down a street in Berlin-2002 :lol:)
 
Graf said:
I agree
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...Other than that, I find Invincible to be a perfect album.
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me too! it's perfect :D

analogue said:
One of the main things I would have done is cut out the You Rock My World intro with Chris Tucker. That was so stupid, pointless and annoying.
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I agree!!! it's really annoying

barbee0715 said:
It's funny the things they cut or leave on. They cut that romantic, sensual opening on LIMF on some versions, yet they leave the silly Chris Tucker and Macauley Culkin openings-that don't have anything to do with the song itself.
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and the opening on I Just Can't Stop Loving You!
I don't mind the opening with Black Or White, because it makes me think of the kid rocking out in the video :punk: and I love that scene
 
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Michaels Lover said:
I don't mind the opening with Black Or White, because it makes me think of the kid rocking out in the video :punk: and I love that scene
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First time I played that song was at night through headphones. I literally took them off because I thought MY neighbours were arguing for real :lol:
 
HIStoric said:
First time I played that song was at night through headphones. I literally took them off because I thought MY neighbours were arguing for real :lol:
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Me too! Scared the crap out of me when I played it first day of release back in 1991.
 
MattyJam said:
I assume the fans who hate The Lost Children for being too sappy, also hate Heal The World, We Are The World and Childhood as well?

I personally rate The Lost Children as one of the best tracks on the album.
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Thought it was just me who liked it.

It is sappy,but the tune is lovely. I always thought if MJ would have had a better public profile at the time then TLC would have been used as a theme to a Disney style movie.
 
MattyJam said:
I've always loved it. Sure, it's about as trendy as a Cliff Richard Christmas number one, but then Heal The World was hardly Nine Inch Nails, and I don't remember fans bitching about that one being corny.

And you're right, it's pure Disney.
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Pretty sure Heal The World was a Nine Inch Nails cover.

(I wonder if Nine Inch Nails ever considered a duet with MC Hammer?)

Also the good thing about The Lost Children is that at least it has MJ written all over it and in 2001 he must have frigging pushed to get that song with that title on the album. I can't imagine Sony was happy!!

So even though there are some better songs on the album, at least this one is pure Michael Jackson and not just a contributor.
 
i wonder how Michael rated Invincible in comparison to his other albums.

And I don't include statements he made during its promotion as he's obviously not going to say 'it's not as good as Thrilleror Bad'.
 
MattyJam said:
It did say in the J Randy Tarborrelli book (I know, I know....) that even before it was released Michael was "sick to death of the whole thing and just wanted it over with." Of course, I don't know if I particularly trust Tarborrelli, but it's food for thought and it matches up with MJ's lack of interest in promoting it once it was out.
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It is food for thought.

The whole album was overthought, overblown and over expensive by the time it was released.

Personally I don't think he was well by then which obviously won't have helped.

In terms of promotion, that just fell flat. Terrible choice of first single. YRMW is a grower and I recall being incredibly disappointed by it, and even more so by the mediocre shirt film (by M.j standards).

Then you have an even worse choice of second single. No video. No sign of MJ on any cover art.

Then the awful MSG shows that only showcased one song, which pales into insignificance when played alongside his classics.
 
MattyJam said:
Anyone else think the song Invincible is actually really underrated? Listen to it on a good set of headphones, it's a whole other experience. Plus MJs adlibbing is pretty awesome on this one.
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YEES! I love it! I remember listening to it when I discovered the Invincible album. I became obsessed with it for a couple of weeks, along with Unbreakable and the BOTDF songs. It's a really great song!
 
MattyJam said:
Anyone else think the song Invincible is actually really underrated? Listen to it on a good set of headphones, it's a whole other experience. Plus MJs adlibbing is pretty awesome on this one.
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The title track is one of 3 or 4 from Invincible on my playlist. Although I think the production coule be better & the rap is dodgy I like the track. Especially the bridge "And I'll be showing you what other men are su-posed-to-do-for-you-my baby!"
 
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