So why did Invincible not sell well?

[StarlightXX]

I’m going to be honest - the songs on Invincible were not terrible. As a teenager, Invincible was one of the first MJ albums I ever bought. I do think the songs on Invincible would have been great hits in the years 1999-2000 - though by 2001, with rap and hip hop become the It sound, the electronic tracks of Invincible would sound out-of-place.

I also think the album’s promotion wasn’t managed well so there wasn’t enough visibility of the album globally. Michael signing autographs at the Virgin Records Store in New York City was a brilliant form of promotion, though.

 

[Diogo Bras]

Here in Portugal i remember seeing TV ads and there was decent radio promo when You Rock My World came out, the album managed to achieve Gold status here which was ok in a time where file-sharing was starting to take off.

Not touring for the album in my opinion was a mistake, didnt had to be a World Tour but a couple of dates around some major world cities would definitely helped, then there was the whole drama between MJ and Sony Records it may have been justified but i think the whole thing just destroyed all hopes of good album sales.

Also MJ's popularity wasnt at the heights it was in the 80's and early 90's so the focus should've been in "brand restoration" instead of not touring and bashing your record label after the album release.

Also maybe some collabs with more popular artists at the time maybe could've helped a little bit.

Just my opinion

 

[Galactus123]

Flop? I'm sure any other artist would be happy with those sales.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Michael signing autographs at the Virgin Records Store in New York City was a brilliant form of promotion, though.

Michael Jackson signing autographs (for a bunch of fans) at the Virgin Records Store in New York City looked like an embarrassing move on his part, rather than being a brilliant form of promotion.

Also, his behaviour during that event (boredom, sluggishness, weariness, etc) showed that he did not believe in the potential of that album, and this had an even more adverse effect on its sales.

Flop? I'm sure any other artist would be happy with those sales.

It flopped as compared to sales of his previous studio albums.

 

[Moonstreet]

Michael Jackson signing autographs (for a bunch of fans) at the Virgin Records Store in New York City looked like an embarrassing move on his part, rather than being a brilliant form of promotion.

Also, his behaviour during that event (boredom, sluggishness, weariness, etc) showed that he did not believe in the potential of that album, and this had an even more adverse effect on its sales.

I was at the Invincible cd signing.

I was also in New York for the MSG concerts and September 11. The cd signing was more to do with showing solidarity with the people of New York, than Invincible promotion. Michael bringing Times Square to a standstill was a way to show the world that New York was back on its its feet, and to bring joy and positivity to the people of New York. Ground Zero was still smoldering, there was still a smell of smoke in the air and there were still funerals of the victims taking place.

Again you are talking out of your ass about Michael. It was only 6 weeks after the terror attacks and people were still too afraid to travel to New York. Out of the 500 people who got a ticket and lanyard, about 400 were autograph sellers, and casual fans. Me and my friends slept on the street the night before and the people in the queue with us were autograph hunters who went to all the cd signings every month at Virgin Megastore. They didnt know any songs from Invincible, we asked them about CRY which had just been released and they didnt know it.

Michael was only reflecting the energy and people who were there. As we queued around the shop we could the screens. Huge amounts of people never even spoke to him, just walked up to the table and took the signed cd booklet. Is it any wonder he didnt give a crap and was bored, when the people there couldnt even be bothered to say hello to him.

 

[dam2040]

Not another thread about this surely

 

[Moonstreet]

Its such a pain when people who have no idea what life was like in 2001 try to analyse and put a spin on Invincible, putting their 2024 viewpoint onto a time and events they know nothing about.

We lived it every step with Michael in real time on the forums. We were there in the streets with him outside Sony offices. We were there in New York at the concerts and on September 11. We were there at the cd signing. We were there at the concert in Washington. We were online and summitting questions for the GET MUSIC live interview.

Invincible was caught in a storm, things happening in real life and behind the scenes, which impacted the marketing, promotion and sales. One of those events might not have affected things as much, but everything together, things outside of Michael control, Sonys control ,something so huge like the terror attacks less than 24 hours after the second MSG concert, just impacted the album too much.

 

[Hot_Street]

It didn't flop. It never had a chance.

 

[mjchris]

LOL. No flop. Just your thread is a Mega Flop.
These self proclaimed XYZ Stars like Swift, Gaga, Bieber, Perry,... from today whish to have such an "Flop".

 

[michaelsson]

It didn't flop. It was double platinum in America alone within 2 months of release. Got a top 10 H100 hit with YRMW (which went number 1 in several other countries). A top 20/rnb top 5 hit with butterflies and went on to sell 10+million copies world wide with no promo. Lets not forget he appeared in only one music video, didnt perform any songs from the album (minus yrmw at msg which was followed by terrorist attacks) and boycotted the album/label. So in what world is a multi plat 10million seller a flop?

 

[mjchris]

It didn't flop. It was double platinum in America alone within 2 months of release. Got a top 10 H100 hit with YRMW (which went number 1 in several other countries). A top 20/rnb top 5 hit with butterflies and went on to sell 10+million copies world wide with no promo. Lets not forget he appeared in only one music video, didnt perform any songs from the album (minus yrmw at msg which was followed by terrorist attacks) and boycotted the album/label. So in what world is a multi plat 10million seller a flop?

And just to mention, YRMW in the Top10 just with Airplay!!

 

[AlwaysThere]

Flop? I wouldn’t go that far. Sure, by MJ’s standards, it did moderate. But any other artist would kill to have their album sell like Invincible did.

As for why it underperformed? Tons of reasons. MJ was three decades into his career, and the law of diminishing returns affects everyone eventually. There was only one major single that wasn’t commercially available in America. There was only one major music video. There was no tour. MJ refused to do much promotion outside of miscellaneous interviews. Sony didn’t put their whole backing into the single releases. Both of them effectively gave up on it by the end of the year. 9/11 was barely a month old and still had everyone’s attention.

 

[R1chard]

Nothing to do with the promotion. That side of things was great. It's Michael Jackson - everybody knew he had a new album out. They didn't but it simply because they didn't like the songs. It really is that simple. MJ wasn't a major star any more, no need for a deep analysis.

 

[R1chard]

Invincible was caught in a storm, things happening in real life and behind the scenes, which impacted the marketing, promotion and sales.

As I said in another thread, Invincible didn't fail because it wasn't promoted.

It wasn't promoted because it failed.

901 didn't affect anything. JayZ had 3 weeks at #1 and Creed had 4 weeks. People still bought records.

 

[mj_frenzy]

As I said in another thread, Invincible didn't fail because it wasn't promoted.

It wasn't promoted because it failed.

901 didn't affect anything. JayZ had 3 weeks at #1 and Creed had 4 weeks. People still bought records.

'Invincible' was not promoted properly and the main reason for that was because during that period Michael Jackson fell out with Sony Music and its then-president Tommy Mottola.

That is why, the record company decided to put an end to the album's official promotion in April (2002).

 

[Moonstreet]

As I said in another thread, Invincible didn't fail because it wasn't promoted.

It wasn't promoted because it failed.

901 didn't affect anything. JayZ had 3 weeks at #1 and Creed had 4 weeks. People still bought records.

'Invincible' was not promoted properly and the main reason for that was because during that period Michael Jackson fell out with Sony Music and its then-president Tommy Mottola.

That is why, the record company decided to put an end to the album's official promotion in April (2002).

If you have lived, personal first hand experiences of 2001, of being on the forums, of following things in real time either online or in real life or both, then please share. Theories and interpretations of situations viewed through a 2024 viewpoint and AI CHAT GPT writings masquerading as natural conversation do not deserve further engagement.

 

[michaelsson]

Nothing to do with the promotion. That side of things was great. It's Michael Jackson - everybody knew he had a new album out. They didn't but it simply because they didn't like the songs. It really is that simple. MJ wasn't a major star any more, no need for a deep analysis.

I wish you would get banned. I am so sick of your ignorant ass and your ignorant posts. Idk if you think by being disrespectful it makes you some edgy “fan” or what but its pple like you that have made this board go sour. Go AWAY. Invincible wasnt promoted properly. Michael didn't perform the songs. He appeared in one video. And didnt even get the lead single he wanted. Had michael performed you rock my world vs dangerous. Released music videos that he was actually in. Toured. Not boycotted the album/label he would have done far bigger numbers. And again a 10million+ world wide seller isnt a flop.

If you have lived, personal first hand experiences of 2001, of being on the forums, of following things in real time either online or in real life or both, then please share. Theories and interpretations of situations viewed through a 2024 viewpoint and AI CHAT GPT writings masquerading as natural conversation do not deserve further engagement.

get em!

 

[DuranDuran]

Released music videos that he was actually in.

I don't think that is that important. There was a period where George Michael didn't appear in his music videos and the songs still were hits. Radio airplay was more important than music videos. I remember there were a lot of music videos on MTV & BET that I never heard on the radio and those songs weren't big chart hits either. Also 4 of the singles from Thriller didn't have a music video.

 

[michaelsson]

I don't think that is that important. There was a period where George Michael didn't appear in his music videos and the songs still were hits. Radio airplay was more important than music videos. I remember there were a lot of music videos on MTV & BET that I never heard on the radio and those songs weren't big chart hits either. Also 4 of the singles from Thriller didn't have a music video.

Michael Jackson is a visual artist he literally reshaped how we see Music videos. Him appearing physically in ONE video didnt help promote the other 2 singles that were released. He purposely didnt do the videos cuz he jumped ship. He wanted to push unbreakable as the lead single with a dope video and they said no. Michael was no longer interested. Thriller was 1982 before Michael revolutionized the short film music video. By 2001 that was his staple.

 

[kreen]

The cd signing was more to do with showing solidarity with the people of New York, than Invincible promotion.

No. We need to distinguish between PR and commercial and contractual realities. The CD signing was a promotional event by Sony to support sales of the Invincible CD. It was chosen because it was one of the rare things that MJ was both willing to do and capable of doing at that point in his life, which as we suspected back then and as we know now was at a low point.

Next you'll be telling us that MJ embarked on the TII project "because he wanted his kids to be able to see him perform", and not because he was flat-out broke.

 

[DuranDuran]

Michael Jackson is a visual artist he literally reshaped how we see Music videos. Him appearing physically in ONE video didnt help promote the other 2 singles that were released. He purposely didnt do the videos cuz he jumped ship. He wanted to push unbreakable as the lead single with a dope video and they said no. Michael was no longer interested. Thriller was 1982 before Michael revolutionized the short film music video. By 2001 that was his staple.

Butterflies made it to #2 on the R&B chart. There was no video, it got there by radio airplay. There was even a remix with Eve. It still gets played on R&B stations today. Anyway this was 2001. If music videos were so important, MTV wouldn't have changed their format to reality TV programs. Especially after the one with Ozzy Osbourne's family became a big hit. This was also around the time of Napster & file sharing, which was the beginning of the end of CD sales. Metallica sued, but that didn't help stop it from happening.

 

[Derek1984]

The album was too inconsistent. It had some greatness, mixed in with some clunkers. Half of the album was not radio friendly. I also don't think MJ was fully into the project.

IMO, his last great album was Dangerous. Surely there was some greatness after Dangerous, but as an entire album, Dangerous was his last great work.

 

[michaelsson]

Butterflies made it to #2 on the R&B chart. There was no video, it got there by radio airplay. There was even a remix with Eve. It still gets played on R&B stations today. Anyway this was 2001. If music videos were so important, MTV wouldn't have changed their format to reality TV programs. Especially after the one with Ozzy Osbourne's family became a big hit. This was also around the time of Napster & file sharing, which was the beginning of the end of CD sales. Metallica sued, but that didn't help stop it from happening.

And had there been a music video/live performance it would have cracked the top 10. The 2000s were literally the TRL/106 and park era. Like?? From making the video to video countdown shows, visuals were just as important. Especially to grab the younger generation. And like you said it was 2001 so the importance of music videos now vs then wouldn't be the same hence all the music video countdown shows now being non existent. All of those things play a role in how a single/album is pushed and in turn how it performs. And invincible performed fairly well in terms of sales. Sucked in terms of promotion.

 

[Andymachine]

It was not a great album by his standards. Some of the ballads are just dreadful. The main reason was probably lack of promotion. You Rock My World was an ok ish song but a stronger song would have been a better idea to release as a first single. After that they just did nothing for it.

 

[DuranDuran]

And had there been a music video/live performance it would have cracked the top 10. The 2000s were literally the TRL/106 and park era. Like?? From making the video to video countdown shows, visuals were just as important. Especially to grab the younger generation. And like you said it was 2001 so the importance of music videos now vs then wouldn't be the same hence all the music video countdown shows now being non existent. All of those things play a role in how a single/album is pushed and in turn how it performs. And invincible performed fairly well in terms of sales. Sucked in terms of promotion.

A music video wouldn't have made much of a difference. The reason Butterflies was a big hit on R&B radio and less so on Top 40 pop radio is because some pop radio stations in the US refused to play Michael Jackson music because of the allegations. R&B radio didn't ban him like that. Also Butterflies had a neo-soul sound and neo-soul overall had little crossover. Maybe Erykah Badu did somewhat. Floetry definitely didn't get crossover airplay, but did get played on R&B radio. Janet got banned on a lot of stations after the "wardrobe malfuntion" and the Dixie Chicks on country radio after their George W. Bush comments.

 

[michaelsson]

A music video wouldn't have made much of a difference. The reason Butterflies was a big hit on R&B radio and less so on Top 40 pop radio is because some pop radio stations in the US refused to play Michael Jackson music because of the allegations. R&B radio didn't ban him like that. Also Butterflies had a neo-soul sound and neo-soul overall had little crossover. Maybe Erykah Badu did somewhat. Floetry definitely didn't get crossover airplay, but did get played on R&B radio. Janet got banned on a lot of stations after the "wardrobe malfuntion" and the Dixie Chicks on country radio after their George W. Bush comments.

So you believe a single that peaked at # 2 on the rnb chart, and in the top 20 on the h100 with no video/live performance wouldnt have done any better with that extra push of a music video? Lmfao ok.

 

[DuranDuran]

So you believe a single that peaked at # 2 on the rnb chart, and in the top 20 on the h100 with no video/live performance wouldnt have done any better with that extra push of a music video? Lmfao ok.

No it would not. If a music video was that important for chart placement, how come nobody had a big hit with death metal songs? There's music videos for that. Death metal did not get top 40 airplay. There's also videos for gospel music & jazz. Not everybody had cable TV anyway to watch MTV, more people had a radio. That's why some of Mike's videos premiered on regular free TV networks. Some of those songs from HIStory had music videos, yet were not hits in the USA. They either didn't get much radio play or they were not released as singles. Earth Song was shown on VH-1, but no single and little if any radio play. Liberian Girl & Leave Me Alone also had music videos. Without the radio airplay, they weren't hits. Yet Butterflies was a hit with no video and the label wasn't really pushing it either. R&B radio just jumped on it themselves.

 

[R1chard]

'Invincible' was not promoted properly and the main reason for that was because during that period Michael Jackson fell out with Sony Music and its then-president Tommy Mottola.

It's Michael Jackson.

Just by being Michael Jackson, every album he released automatically got more visibility than any A-lister from 2024 could dream of.

It made me sad to see Michael throw personal insults and try to blame Sony the way he did. Would have been better just to take failure on the chin and learn from it.

Again, popular albums get promoted because the labels wants to cash in and milk it for all it's worth.

Albums that don't sell get dropped because it's a waste of money. 80% of albums fail to make a profit - no label can afford to promote everything for years on end. I know bands who haven't had a video for anything on their last 4 albums.

If you have lived, personal first hand experiences of 2001, of being on the forums, of following things in real time either online or in real life or both, then please share.

At the time Invincible was released, I was 24 years old and had been a MJ fan for well over 10 years. At that point I'd worked in several nightclubs and had been involved in online music promotion.

Not that it matters, but I was on the KOP board. I saw those massive billboards in New York in October 2001. I saw huge adverts in Manchester. I saw huge adverts in London. I heard YRMW on national radio.

Again, it was MJ, it was a big deal. The promotion was automatic. But people didn't buy it because they didn't like it. It's a fundamental concept in the music industry, believe it or not.

Theories and interpretations of situations viewed through a 2024 viewpoint and AI CHAT GPT writings masquerading as natural conversation do not deserve further engagement.

I'm very sorry that I don't have the same favourite album as you. I guess that makes me a bad fan. Oh well.

I will also never understand why you are obsessed with everything being "in real time".

I wish you would get banned. I am so sick of your ignorant ass and your ignorant posts.

Um, ok.

Idk if you think by being disrespectful it makes you some edgy “fan” or what but its pple like you that have made this board go sour. Go AWAY.

Like, for me, the album was far too monotonous (ie every song was R&B which I'm not a fan of). Much like somebody who doesn't like disco isn't gonna list OTW as their favourite album, or somebody who doesn't like soul isn't gonna like Got To Be There. It's personal ****** taste.

I actually did try to promote the album myself - look in online guitar archives and you'll see my tab of the Whatever Happens solo, plus YRMW bassline, Unbreakable and some other stuff.

Invincible wasnt promoted properly. Michael didn't perform the songs. He appeared in one video.

I'm not sure you really understand the music industry. MJ doesn't have a god-given right to promotion of an album that's failing.

Getting a 5th video can be seen as a reward for the 4th video being successful. Getting a 4th video can be seen as a reward for the 3rd video being successful. Getting a 3rd video can be seen as a reward for the 2nd video being successful. If you don't think Cry was terrible then that's the end of this conversation.

 

[Hot_Street]

I got the album Dangerous as a child and listened to it over and over again because the music was so incredibly good. I didn't know anything about videos or promos except for the video for Black or White. It was similar with Invincible. I listened to the album constantly because of the music. No videos here either. These experiences tell me that the music wasn't the reason why Invincible didn't perform as well commercially as the albums before it.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Things are Slow but are they really This Slow??