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What's the max you think Invincible could have sold overall

At this point, who cares anymore. The only thing worse than Invincible is this FREAKING DEBATE EVERY DAY.

Just leave it here and just stop ever talking about it again. Agree to disagree and all that.
 
It's far from disrespect. I don't see the point in deluding ourselves. No reasonable person would think Invincible was Michael's peak on any level. Justifications to the contrary are frankly bizarre. It would be like saying "I actually think Matthew Perry's peak was after Friends when he went on a 10 year drug binge". It would make just as much sense, no disrespect meant to Matthew Perry of course.

The album is average at best. You can be a huge fan of an artist and admit they released a dud album.
 
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It is average for Michael Jackson. I still like it.

I didn't say it's disrespectful not to like it, but I don't want anyone speaking for me. Love or hate, I am not your equal.

Plenty of artists release average albums, their whole career is built off "average" albums as far as I'm concerned. Some artists are one hit wonders. But as far as I'm concerned, MJ did no wrong musically, and I will always feel that way. Invincible for me is still way more listenable than Janet's "average" or JT's "average" or even Beyonce's "best". So sue me, I commit to a unique standard.
Hurley509 said:
It would be like saying "I actually think Matthew Perry's peak was after Friends when he went on a 10 year drug binge". It would make just as much sense, no disrespect meant to Matthew Perry of course.
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Everything about this registers as disrespectful to me. Horrible example. Keep his name out of your mouth.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
It is average for Michael Jackson. I still like it.

I didn't say it's disrespectful not to like it, but I don't want anyone speaking for me. Love or hate, I am not your equal.

Plenty of artists release average albums, their whole career is built off "average" albums as far as I'm concerned. Some artists are one hit wonders. But as far as I'm concerned, MJ did no wrong musically, and I will always feel that way. Invincible for me is still way more listenable than Janet's "average" or JT's "average" or even Beyonce's "best". So sue me, I commit to a unique standard.

Everything about this registers as disrespectful to me. Horrible example. Keep his name out of your mouth.
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Waah, everything is disrespect. It was an apt analogy so deal with it.

And it might be better than the average of some popular artists but at the same time a new thread every day as to why it was great and we should respect it is a bit ridiculous, is it not? And I am not sure if it is better than the average of the artists you cite. Maybe if it were cut down a lot of the fat you might be able to say that.

The problem here is also the Sony blaming and the wondering why it didn't sell more. It was an average album and sold around about what it should have sold. Usher's 8701 sold less worldwide and that album is a better album with way more hits. You can like the album but to pretend its anywhere near his best stuff is ridiculous and laughable. I'd say Invincible is half as good as HIStory and sold about half the sales. Sounds about right to me.

And I'll qualify that statement with this -

Scream - better than anything on Invincible
You are not alone - better than anything on Invincible
They dont care about us - better than anything on invincible
Stranger in Moscow - better than anything on Invincible

It's not to you get to deep cuts like Tabloid Junkie and Money that you draw comparisons with something like You Rock My World or Whatever Happens
 
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Hurley509 said:
And it might be better than the average of some popular artists but at the same time a new thread every day as to why it was great and we should respect it is a bit ridiculous, is it not?
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Am I the one insisting on shoving down our throats? No, I'm not. This is irrelevant to me.

Hurley509 said:
And I am not sure if it is better than the average of the artists you cite.
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I've gotten more out of Invincible than Man of the Wood, and I like that album. Got more out of it than Discipline, by Janet. I've even gotten more out of it than Victory by the Jacksons, and that was MJ at his peak of his powers.

Hurley509 said:
You can like the album but to pretend its anywhere near his best stuff is ridiculous and laughable.
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You're like a broken record. Stop saying this already.


Hurley509 said:
Scream - better than anything on Invincible
You are not alone - better than anything on Invincible
They dont care about us - better than anything on invincible
Stranger in Moscow - better than anything on Invincible
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You named a few songs that are all S Tier and as good as the best off Thriller and Bad. And also You Are Not Alone, which has aged as well as a carcass.

But sure, it's all better than Cry and Privacy, I'll agree with that. But I'll take Unbreakable and Butterflies over D.S or Superfly Sister. For God's sake, be reasonable.
 
Hurley509 said:
The album is average at best. You can be a huge fan of an artist and admit they released a dud album.
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Invincible is not just average album, it's one of the best albums, Michael have ever created. It's definitely better than Thriller or History.
Michael said himself, that it's one of his strongest project, he have ever worked on.
A lot of people delusions, because they consider popularity of album as indicator of quality. That's a delusion
 
Hurley509 said:
Scream - better than anything on Invincible
You are not alone - better than anything on Invincible
They dont care about us - better than anything on invincible
Stranger in Moscow - better than anything on Invincible
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HAHAHAHAHA 🤣🤣🤣 omg. Really???
SIM is the strongest song from History album along with Earth Song, but both songs are weaker than Whatever Happens. WH is better than any song from History, Off The Wall, Thriller and Bad. It's one of the best songs, Michael have ever created
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Am I the one insisting on shoving down our throats? No, I'm not. This is irrelevant to me.


I've gotten more out of Invincible than Man of the Wood, and I like that album. Got more out of it than Discipline, by Janet. I've even gotten more out of it than Victory by the Jacksons, and that was MJ at his peak of his powers.


You're like a broken record. Stop saying this already.



You named a few songs that are all S Tier and as good as the best off Thriller and Bad. And also You Are Not Alone, which has aged as well as a carcass.

But sure, it's all better than Cry and Privacy, I'll agree with that. But I'll take Unbreakable and Butterflies over D.S or Superfly Sister. For God's sake, be reasonable.
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No, Shaun. Unbreakable is one of the best Invincible songs. It's better than Thriller or Dirty Diana
 
^ it's a bit (but not surprising) disappointing to see you say that Whatever Happens is better than any song on Michael's classic albums.

The fact you could rank it higher than some of the best songs ever created in music history is remarkable I must say.

Looking back on your previous few posts, I see the hard trolling is back in full swing.
 
Hurley509 said:
Waah, everything is disrespect. It was an apt analogy so deal with it.

And it might be better than the average of some popular artists but at the same time a new thread every day as to why it was great and we should respect it is a bit ridiculous, is it not? And I am not sure if it is better than the average of the artists you cite. Maybe if it were cut down a lot of the fat you might be able to say that.

The problem here is also the Sony blaming and the wondering why it didn't sell more. It was an average album and sold around about what it should have sold. Usher's 8701 sold less worldwide and that album is a better album with way more hits. You can like the album but to pretend its anywhere near his best stuff is ridiculous and laughable. I'd say Invincible is half as good as HIStory and sold about half the sales. Sounds about right to me.

And I'll qualify that statement with this -

Scream - better than anything on Invincible
You are not alone - better than anything on Invincible
They dont care about us - better than anything on invincible
Stranger in Moscow - better than anything on Invincible

It's not to you get to deep cuts like Tabloid Junkie and Money that you draw comparisons with something like You Rock My World or Whatever Happens
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Sales did not really have to do with the quality of the included new songs in these 2 albums.

Keep in mind that the 'HIStory' album was released with an additional disc (disc one) that included some of his classic hits (which gave a boost to the sales of the entire 'HIStory' album).

Also, according to music industry insiders, the 'HIStory' album was supported by one of the most expensive promotional campaigns ever, like:

The 'HIStory' album came with a mammoth world tour around the globe (82 concerts).

They released 8 singles from the 'HIStory' album, and some of them were very expensive in their making.

Aside the HIStory Tour, Michael Jackson also actively promoted the 'HIStory' album by giving various interviews during the 'HIStory' era.

On the other hand, the 'Invincible' album did not have any of the above, hence its lower sales compared to the 'HIStory' album.
 
mj_frenzy said:
Sales did not really have to do with the quality of the included new songs in these 2 albums.

Keep in mind that the 'HIStory' album was released with an additional disc (disc one) that included some of his classic hits (which gave a boost to the sales of the entire 'HIStory' album).

Also, according to music industry insiders, the 'HIStory' album was supported by one of the most expensive promotional campaigns ever, like:

The 'HIStory' album came with a mammoth world tour around the globe (82 concerts).

They released 8 singles from the 'HIStory' album, and some of them were very expensive in their making.

Aside the HIStory Tour, Michael Jackson also actively promoted the 'HIStory' album by giving various interviews during the 'HIStory' era.

On the other hand, the 'Invincible' album did not have any of the above, hence its lower sales compared to the 'HIStory' album.
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Considering History came off the back of the allegations in 93 it needed a mammoth promotional campaign and tour to limit damage control.

Plus it had some brilliant self penned songs that MJ needed to put out.

This was the follow up to Dangerous and MJ was still very much in demand.

In 2001, Michael was considered even more of a weirdo and was aged 43. Too old and and less relevant than he had ever been.

Invincible needed to be brilliant, it wasn't and that's the reason why it didn't perform as expected. It was dead by 2002.
 
Hurley509 said:
Usher's 8701 sold less worldwide and that album is a better album with way more hits.
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lol 8701 only had three hit singles.

Aside from those three songs, the album was full of filler. Maybe it's a better album than Invincible, but not by much.

I can't think of a single 2001 album that was particularly good, at least not a pop album. Usher? 'N Sync? Britney? Janet? J Lo? Shaggy? If that was MJ's competition, then I'd say he did alright.
 
If Invincible had had more singles with good videos for promising songs like Butterflies and Whatever Happens and if Michael had supported the album, at most 20 million would have been possible through performances and a tour, assuming a few of the songs had developed into real hits. Heaven Can Wait also probably had potential, considering its success on Spotify.:
Michael Jackson’s ‘Heaven Can Wait’ has now surpassed 100 million streams on Spotify ! Invincible achieve a rare feat by having a non-single reaching that milestone.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1857483726248116336
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Spaceship said:
imo 10m same as history
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History sold around 23-27 million copies now with Greatest Hits Volume 1. Invincible could have sold 30 million with proper promotion, singles and some performances in the US throughout 2002-03
 
R1chard said:
Jesus ****** Christ. It's as though the first page of this thread never happened.
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It sold 6,000,000 copies in two months, both Butterflies and YRMW had 30-50 million airplay audiences in the US without a singles release, with one they both go platinum and chart in the top 5. The massive success of Heaven Can Wait today shows that Michael was right it would have been his biggest album in decades. The 30th anniversary show wasn't promoted internationally either. Michael had various plans for music videos that were canned, every prior album by then had already sold over 20 million copies. Invincible was selling faster in the west than any of them besides Dangerous. Based on the trajectory of Dangerous it would have sold 25 million pure copies in it's first 3 years if Michael had co-operation with Sony and around 30 Million album units today.
 
IhateTheMedia said:
It sold 6,000,000 copies in two months
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6 million in a year.

I'm not kidding, the next time you repeat some bullshit that you know is debunked, you're blocked.

IhateTheMedia said:
both Butterflies and YRMW had 30-50 million airplay
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Airplay ≠ sales.

Streams don't mean anything.

IhateTheMedia said:
in the US without a singles release, with one they both go platinum and chart in the top 5
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Seems like now you're just saying anything.

IhateTheMedia said:
The massive success of Heaven Can Wait today
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Um, no?

IhateTheMedia said:
shows that Michael was right it would have been his biggest album in decades
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You've got to give a reason, you can't just say the first thing that pops into your head.

How is this wish consistent with the style of the album alienating most of his audience?

IhateTheMedia said:
The 30th anniversary show wasn't promoted internationally either.
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To be honest, that show didn't promote Invincible. It barely mentioned it.

And anyway, Motown 25 wasn't promoted internationally, but that didn't harm Thriller (which also only had 3 videos).

It's almost like you're clutching at straws.

IhateTheMedia said:
Michael had various plans for music videos that were canned
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Everybody always does. But videos don't get made unless the previous video was a success. That's the hard reality of business.

IhateTheMedia said:
Based on the trajectory of Dangerous it would have sold 25 million pure copies in it's first 3 years if Michael had co-operation with Sony and around 30 Million album units today.
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Oh. Right. So, based on... absolutely nothing... the album goes from being forgotten, to being one of the top 10 biggest selling albums in history?

**** me.

Just do better with your replies.
 
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