BAD25 - designated Discussion Thread

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Guys here's some excellent info about the audio recordings of music concerts. Gives you a pretty good idea of what the process was for Wimbley.


  1. On the Bleeding Edge

    There are some things in the music business that never change. For instance, record labels will always want to repackage a band's old material. History has shown that "Greatest Hits" packages are an easy (and cheap) way to do this. After all, the biggest expense of a new release -- studio time -- is minimal for a re-package. Ditto for the concept of a live recording. The band is performing anyway, and by the time they've played their 25th show, they're pretty well rehearsed, so the label decides it's time to record a concert for release on CD in stereo and on DVD in 5.1 -- and that's where life on the road gets complicated.
  2. For starters, we'll assume (uh-oh) that the band you're working with is competent enough to actually play a show that's worthy of release. Eventually, some genius at their label will figure that -- since they're on tour and you're a capable engineer -- you can easily handle a multitrack recording while mixing the show in front of 10,000 people. In the rain. Since you're going to have a tough time getting the label to foot the bill for a remote truck (or even an assistant engineer), you'd better be prepared with some ideas for how to go about making a release-worthy recording while still attending to your other menial duties, such as mixing the show.

    The good news is that a lot of engineers have made master-quality recordings of live shows using simple recording setups. The simplest setup is the "board tape," but the chances of a board tape being master quality are slim. There's just too much noise coming off the average stage to allow your board mix to be an accurate representation of what you hear in the room. In other words, the guitar player is usually so *^&% loud that you don't need a lot of him in your mix because you can hear the amp, even when it's not in the PA system very much. When you play back the board tape, there's no guitar because you didn't need to raise up his fader very much. (Foghat engineer Carl Davino is the master of the board tape. Maybe we can get him to share his technique some time.)

    That brings us to live recording possibility number two: a live-to-two-track recording mixed by another person in a room isolated from the stage and PA, where they can actually mix the band during the show and make aesthetic judgments on level and EQ without interference from a crappy sounding room, a band that's 115 dB on stage and a PA that's 120 at FOH. How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?

    Here is how it really is going to happen: you are going to need some sort of assistant engineer, even if that person is just an extra pair of hands. You are also going to need a means of splitting signals from the stage, preferably right off the microphone (i.e. pre-FOH and -monitor consoles and processing). If you are using a console that has a direct out on each channel, you're ahead of the game: take the direct out from each channel into a channel on a multitrack tape machine or hard disk recorder. Make absolutely certain that the direct out is pre-fader. You don't want your fader moves during the show to be recorded (you'll remix at a later time). Pre-EQ is probably also a good idea, so that you can EQ the tracks ex post facto. With a FOH console that has direct outs on each channel, you could probably get something like an Alesis ADAT HD24 or Mackie HDR24/96 hard disk recorder, a wiring harness, a bunch of hard drives (with a cushy case to hold them), and be on your way.

    Next up on the food chain is using a transformer-isolated, three-way split, which provides FOH, monitor and recording systems with their own feeds. Now you will need mic preamps along with your recorder, which means you can rack up some serious pre's and create a better product. If you're on a tight budget, you could get a couple of MOTU Travelers, a Mac iBook and some Glyph drives, and carry the whole system in a small rack. (Make sure that the drives are at least 7,200 RPM.) Or you could rack up three or four TRUE Precision8 mic pre's (eight channels each) along with an HDR. In any case, the idea is to get clean signal on disk and mix later. You're probably not going to be able to monitor with any sort of isolation anyway because the PA is in your face. What you are concerned with is setting a good record level and then pretty much babysitting the meters for the duration of the show. A simple sound check will give you all the information you need, though I'd suggest setting record levels conservatively since band members always take it up a notch come show time.

    Those of you lucky enough to be mixing on a Digidesign VENUE every night have a special advantage when it comes to recording: Digidesign's TDM Record option links the VENUE's digital engine directly to a Pro Tools|HD system via DigiLink connectors on the FOH rack, no additional I/O necessary, thank you very much.

    Whatever medium you decide to record, be sure to record at a sample rate of 44.1 kHz. Sixteen-bit is sufficient since CD audio is 44.1/16-bit anyway and the soundtrack on most DVD's is the same. Mastering engineer Roger Lian at Masterdisk NYC tells me that what you do NOT want is to force a sample rate conversion at a later date by recording at 48-, 88.2- or 96 kHz. Roger tells me that sample rate conversion is about the worst thing you can do to an audio file.

    There's always a small percentage of the population that doesn't trust computers and will want hardware recorders on the road. I can understand that, having experienced problems with laptop recording on the road. Lucky for me these were only reference recordings. For those so inclined, I refer you to eBay, where you can get Tascam DA88s for a song. These machines have proven reliable, and at this point they are cheap enough that you can get a spare without breaking the bank. Thirty-two tracks for under a grand? I wouldn't be surprised, and you can transfer to Pro Tools when you get home. One important note about the remix: plan on separate sessions for the stereo mix and the 5.1 surround mix. Automatic "folddown" from 5.1 to stereo really doesn't work very well.

    Steve La Cerra is the tour manager and Front of House engineer for Blue Oyster Cult. He can be reached via email at
    Woody@fohonline.com.
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Are concerts like Tokyo and Rome taken from VHS tape? It they are the quality should be something like that


All, I really think when the Estate said VHS recording the meant Beta Max Recording or Copy. This is the normal achrival medium that things were recorded on back in the day and then for say public release they'd put in VHS. So Michael likely had a Beta Max copy which is much better at perserving quality than VHS.
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

All, I really think when the Estate said VHS recording the meant Beta Max Recording or Copy. This is the normal achrival medium that things were recorded on back in the day and then for say public release they'd put in VHS. So Michael likely had a Beta Max copy which is much better at perserving quality than VHS.

Let's hope it was a Beta Max....
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

so if it was on a beta max why does the quality not look very good?
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Both DVD and VHS share the same vertical resolution -- 576 pixels in 50 hertz, but horizontally it is a different matter. DVDs typically store their video in 720 pixel-wide frames. Even in the early days of DVD with composite video output, the better part of 500 pixels of this was available to feed the TV. First component video, and then HDMI increased this, to the full 720 pixels in the case of HDMI.
VHS at its best could manage about 250 horizontal pixels.

Blu ray = 1080 pixels.

This means what? It means that most probably the frame resolution for BAD will be 4:3 (for small TVs) and if it is artificially stretched to 16:9 frame (bigger TVs) you'll obtain the following result on big LCD or Plasma screens (picture that equals the quality on the left, and at its best in the center --but we can just dream about it-- and never the quality of the picture in the right, hence confusion. Will we ever get to see MJ on blu-ray?):






left = VHS .............................. center = DVD ................................. right = blu-ray




chicago07crop.jpg


fmj07crop.jpg


id401crop.jpg


id403crop.jpg


id405crop.jpg
 
But the Moonwalker movie uses footage from that day isn't?, and in Bluray looks Beautiful!. Im hype because we´re gonna have excelent sound (multitracks, that means 5.1 no?).

A question though, was Thriller sung totally live that day? (or what songs of that particular day are playback?)
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Wasn't Thriller always live in Bad Tour?
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Everything was live during the Bad Tour. MJ didn't start lip synching until the Dangerous tour.
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

^Not true, the first leg of the Bad Tour was all live but during the second leg he was lip synching some songs.
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Everything was live during the Bad Tour. MJ didn't start lip synching until the Dangerous tour.

Smooth Criminal, half of The Way You Make Me Feel, half of Man In The Mirror and sometimes half of Bad.
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Everything was live during the Bad Tour. MJ didn't start lip synching until the Dangerous tour.

Smooth Criminal and Man in the Mirror(most of the song) were lipsynced during Bad Tour 2nd leg. I'm not sure about others.
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

I dont think we mean to be downers, but VHS sends a redish signal across my mind. I understand it was 1988 and he most likely didnt record that concert in film...but MJ fans kinda do want a bluray release....i also like this VHS debate.
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

I can't wait till i will see this album in Lithuania its so good news :)
 
ketzergon;3644175 said:
But the Moonwalker movie uses footage from that day isn't?, and in Bluray looks Beautiful!. Im hype because we´re gonna have excelent sound (multitracks, that means 5.1 no?).

In the DVD or the CD?
The CD obviously is going to have a great sound but I don't know about the DVD :scratch: Because according to this post, we can't have both at the same time: good sound and image. It makes sense.

felipemj;3644167 said:
1)Where did you heard there ever was a film from the whole concert? do you think Michael liked to burn money recording 3 or 4 concerts(6-8 hours of expensive film, hired professionals and rented equipment) to get 4 minutes of Moonwalker?
2)do you think an edit made live without any Michael's involvement has any advantage to anything did with calm and focus?
ah, editing 10 cameras would demand too much work... poor Sony, counting the money they get with Michael Jackson work is enough... another thing, if the multi-track was mixed and will be released in CD, why repeat its content at the crappy looking dvd? it's very simple: if you can't get both, listen to good audio at the CD and watch good video at the DVD.
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For


I think this one is better than the spanish version

?mazing. wich language is it???
by the way cant wait to see Bad tour. i dont care about resolution dvd e.t.c. want to see Michael. it is not possible to see blue ray from that period.it is very old.i wished 1 year and more to see bad tour and now i am very happy
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

In the DVD or the CD?
The CD obviously is going to have a great sound but I don't know about the DVD :scratch: Because according to this post, we can't have both at the same time: good sound and image. It makes sense.

No. The audio of the concert was recorded to multitracks - that means the sound on the DVD will be from a multitrack recording. We are very likely to get the same identical quality of sound on the DVD and live CD.
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

No. The audio of the concert was recorded to multitracks - that means the sound on the DVD will be from a multitrack recording. We are very likely to get the same identical quality of sound on the DVD and live CD.

Really?
That's good news :)
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

To the person that was talking about the film posters in the foyer of the theatre as Ola and MJ walk out in Thriller - I believe they are all genuine movies that Vincent Price starred in.

Ahh, ok. Thanks.

Celine did a CD/DVD and she kept everything from her show on her CD as well as DVD

Hope it will be the same here. If they have to cut out songs from the live CD it will be sad.

Guys, Do you think I should get the Bad Replica Jacket as well? I can afford it, but I'm not a huge fan of the design, It looks kinda cheap to me. But it would go well with my Bad 1988 T Shirt. Hmmm, decisions, decisions!

BUY IT!! :lol: I know I will. It's soo cool!

Wasn't Thriller always live in Bad Tour?

Thriller was I think.

Everything was live during the Bad Tour. MJ didn't start lip synching until the Dangerous tour.

Nope. Most was live, but some was fully or partly lipsynched.
No. The audio of the concert was recorded to multitracks - that means the sound on the DVD will be from a multitrack recording. We are very likely to get the same identical quality of sound on the DVD and live CD.

I just hope the audio will be great - and not too much audience noise. I don't wanna hear the fans screaming - I wanna hear MJ's vocals! :)
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

From which Wembley concert is this audio from?

 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For


oh...ok...I see what you are saying...Thank you for supplying that link.

I know def sounds wrong but it says it here http://www.amazon.com/Michael-Jackson-Live-Wembley-7-16-1998/dp/B0084I9QIW

but then again they even have the date wrong! 1988 not 1998

hopefully it is just a mistake that can be easily corrected...amazon is known for making mistakes like that...hopefully the will fix it. :)

Its typos but unexceptable ...

I agree....it is unexceptable...I hope they realize it...and fix it...because it makes fans think that it is only a 60 minute dvd.. A big company like Amazon should not be making these kinds of mistakes when they are talking about The King Of Pop's Concert release....:lmao:....do you think WE should make them aware of this?
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Maybe the '60 minutes' is also a typo?
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

They propably write 60 mins as long as they do not know.

It will be nearly double that I think! - Bad tour was like 100-110 minutes I think.
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

They are not cutting the concert - they will show it in FULL just as it is recorded on Michael's personal VHS Tape.
That has been stated in the announcement and on the product page for the DVD . Its will be intact.

Also For those asking why teh estate estate doesnt have BAD Tour footage. They didnt state anything like that.
They stated this is this is the only footage they have right now of the Royal Family performance on the 16th that
Fans requested. Not that they dont have any footage of other Wembley shows or other Bad concerts.

It's just pretty weird they have ONLY the VHS owned by Michael as source. I'm pretty sure this concert was definately shot on film so BR release would be fully possible. But of well.. I'll take the VHS anyway, cause it's better than nothing :)
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Is it possible Michael's masters were in Thome's possession and he hided them somewhere or sold them to someone as the 'gifts'. he is shady as hell. Just like he 'gave away' all Michael's decade art works to that Brett livingstone guy as the 'gifts'.
 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

MJJ, if possible, can you upload a side-by-side comparison? Just so we can see the original file against your remastered version? It would be appreciated:)

 
Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

If this concert has been shot on film it doesn't make any sense to release vhs quality dvd.
 
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