Conrad Murray : Michael Broke the Syringe / Key Witnesses Are Undermining Me!

[elusive moonwalker]

So how does he recall so well when he gave the drugs. He doesn't seem to have kept any records.. Although he did have 2 days to recreate a plausible storyline...

yeah he created a detailed timeline by the time he spoke to the police. listed everything he gave and when. but i think it was talked about b4 where the tox results dont support the times he gave the benzos when he claimed. i think loraz being given much later than he claimed was one point

 

[Autumn II]

It seems Murray first gave the propofol and then when he realised Michael was not breathing he gave flumazenil (the benzodiacepine reversal) to reduce the effect of the "non breathing" caused by the benzos he had previously given as well, a great dose too. (There's no reversal for propofol). That's my understanding.

OK, then. And I guess there's no way to tell for sure in which order they were given? Both medications were found in the same syringe, so I guess he re-used it (instead of a new one?)? So, we can speculate that he gave the propofol on top of giving the benzos, then discovered Michael was in trouble, and then used the same syringe to uptake and then inject the flumazenil? Which could have reversed the effects of the lorazepam, but not the propofol. And THAT shows he was aware of Michael's distress and was trying to resolve it. No way to know exact timing, though.

 

[StacyJ]

His timeline still screws him up. Like the DA said during the preliminary hearing his own timeline is what they're following and his own timeline leaves MJ dead for at least an hour before 911 is called. Murray kept no record of what drugs he gave MJ or what time he gave them.. He claims he gave MJ propofol at 10:40 and then left for 2 minutes to use the restroom. Then when he came back he 'discovered' MJ not breathing but 911 wasn't called until 12:10pm.

 

[Soundmind]

Maybe this isn't the right place for this but why do we believe that murray gave the benzos when he says he did? He has lied about so many things, why do we believe this? Or do we. What I mean is, he wasn't wearing a watch at the hospital, as I recall reading. And that he said he didn't have any sense of time, or words to that effect.. I don't remember reading if there was clock in Michael's room. So how does he recall so well when he gave the drugs. He doesn't seem to have kept any records.. Although he did have 2 days to recreate a plausible storyline...

As for the flumazenil in the same syringe as the propofol, if he was bolusing the propofol , that syringe would probably have been the most readily accessible for him so panicking, he grabbed it, figured it didn't matter that it wasn't empty, drew up the antagonist and injected.
I can't come up with any other reason.

I also can't understand why he would use Flumazenil when his last dose of any benzo given was almost, I think, 3 hours before for the versed at 0730 and 0500 for the ativan. He had to know that it wouldn't reverse the propofol. Unless he gave Michael a more recent dose of ativan that he's not telling us.

that's why we are so desperate to know whether they tested for lorazepam in his liver and urine. If indeed he gave him those drugs as early as 3, and 5 am lorazepam especially intravenous lorazepam would have reached the liver and if indeed he used lorazepam the previous days when MJ was delivering top performance then lorazepam should have been found in his urine , but are we sure they tested for it?

It seems they did not .

I believe sophie or bouee said that the large amount of flumazenil he bought suggest he may have been using flumazenil to counter lorazepam effect when he wanted to wake mj up , so we have no idea whether flumazenil or propofol was the last drug injected .

 

[StacyJ]

so was he waking MJ up or was MJ waking himself up? I thought in order to be awake, the propofol had to be stopped by Murray. Once the infusion stop, the patient awakes. I thought that was how it worked

 

[elusive moonwalker]

there was no infusion. it was done by injection

I believe sophie or bouee said that the large amount of flumazenil he bought suggest he may have been using flumazenil to counter lorazepam effect when he wanted to wake mj up , so we have no idea whether flumazenil or propofol was the last drug injected .

i remember you saying right at the begining that u thought loraz might have been given last.so this kinda goes with what sophie or bouee said

 

[smoothlugar]

It surprised me they tested for Midazolam (another benzodiacepine) in urine (got positive) but there is no mention of Lorazepam.
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(Edited)

 

[elusive moonwalker]

im just hoping they kept the result quiet.the police etc knew about the loraz after all murray told them.hopefully its a smoking gun so to speak

 

[StacyJ]

there was no infusion. it was done by injection



i remember you saying right at the begining that u thought loraz might have been given last.so this kinda goes with what sophie or bouee said

So for 6 weeks there was no IV infusion of propofol? he was just giving boluses and then sedating him with benzos? if that's the case where is all the 217 vials of propofol at?

 

[StacyJ]

im just hoping they kept the result quiet.the police etc knew about the loraz after all murray told them.hopefully its a smoking gun so to speak

I hope so too.. The amount of lorazpam he gave MJ should've knocked out an elephant let alone a man of 130lbs.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

So for 6 weeks there was no IV infusion of propofol? he was just giving boluses and then sedating him with benzos? if that's the case where is all the 217 vials of propofol at?

who knows about the previous 6 weeks if u believe he gave it.why use a drip pre 25ht but not that night. and the phonecall to his G.F while he was in teh back of the ambulance prob has something to do with where all the vials went. ie down the toliet

 

[Soundmind]

What I mean is that that "exposure" to propofol, previous to the last lethal dose (no time for more urine to be produced) cannot determine with certainty the amounts of miligrams administered by Murray. (I know the levels are not consistent with large amounts kept trough continuous infusion for long hours- that's clear, according to comparisons in blogs and that you also explained, but the exact amount has not been advanced by prosecutors yet, so it's almost impossible to determine whether it was 150mg- as defence suggested in their hypothesis- or a bit more and that DOES NOT include the last fatal dose given by Murray, because it didn't reflect in urine).

I'm aware of that . that why I said in total he recieved 200mg , 10 cc to induce, and the fatal dose which killed him. and that's why I belived the urine concentrationS could have been the result of one injection.the last dose could not have exceeded the 100mg because the LIVER concentration was also low relatively, if he received an injection before the last one, it would have been reflected in the liver concentration. Based on the physical evidence mainly the syringe , the blood and liver concentrations the dose would have been 100 mg . Like you said we can't determine how much exactly he received in the hours preceding death,we can only be sure it was very small dose and make no sense if prolonged sleep was the goal .the prosecutors won't have a precise figure also.that's why I said Murray would find an expert to successfully argue a 50 or 100mg gaps in the finding of toxicology results but no expert could explain a 200mg , 400, and 1000mg differences .thus the 8 hours daily of sleep using propofol makes no sense and based on this what he was doing that day took place everynight he gave propofol , and again that the reason he gave that ridiculous 50mg of propofol figure. He could argue a 100 gap but won't be able to argue a 2000 mg gap. That's why I asked everyone to look further into what he said to know WHY did he really say that , and what he was exactly doing in those previous months.If he was using two bolus injections regularly, that means nothing exceeding 200mg and the experts would go back and forth on the reliability of the results and murray would be able to raise reasonable doubt Going back to how many injections he used that day , using reasoning by elimination what was the point of giving propofol injections when lorazepam was used to maintain sleep? we have a logical explanation for why he used it to induce sleep . we have an evidence that the fatal dose was given at a time when MJ should have been awaken ( Brown and Foxx) , but what was the point of using it inbetween if lorazepam was used to maintain sleep? No expert can be sure exactly how much he was given , but using logical explanation might very well help us determine what really happened . My personal opinion giving a propofol injection in the middle of deep sedation maintained by lorazepam makes no sense .

 

[daisy]

Wellcome Daisy. In the preliminary Ruffalo admitted to the defence that the concentration level of propofol in blood was within the range of an induction bolus for anesthesia (around 150mg). But that means the last fatal dose, not the total amount given by Murray on that day. (BTW, Ruffalo made so many mistakes, already commented on this forum that he's not too reliable imo).

As the link I posted earlier on tox says the urine test would "reflect exposure" during the previous hours (while the formation of urine takes place) but not the actual propofol level at the time of death.

Thanks.

It surprised me they tested for Midazolam (another benzodiacepine) in urine (got positive) but there is no mention of Lorazepam.

Exactly, especially that Murray did mention lorazepam in the first place. I asked for it in this or another thread and people say dashes in the report could also mean the results were erased from the autopsy report.
Then someone asked whether this is possible. Why not? Maybe that's too important evidence?

 

[Soundmind]

We know there was no continuous infusion for anesthesia (concentration levels, particularly in urine), but there might have been infusion for more moderate sedation, but since Murray was not monitoring and did not have the required equipment to control the dose, it became an overdose. Who can say it wasn't? Defence was too interested in that the word "infusion" was corrected in the transcription, which finally the judge granted. Murray HID the 100mg vial. It was already commented that in Trials, an anesthetist nurse suggests a way of infusing with the evidence collected... (It doesn't mean that she's right in everything she says, but the technique she suggests makes sense and explains for the prop. vial inside the IV bag).

infusion using a syringe , he 'infused' 25mg of propofol over a 3 to 5 mintues . If he did so MJ would not have died . If he infused a 100mg of propofol over a 3 to 5 minutes , MJ would not have died . They are desperate to replace the word "bolus injection" that was mentioned in the autopsy report.

Nothing suggests it was INFUSED , the amount of a 10 cc syringe was pretty much average and would not have caused troubles if it was infused .
there is no physical evidence of infusion but the 100ml propofol vial that was not even connected to MJ per Alvarez .

 

[Soundmind]

i remember you saying right at the begining that u thought loraz might have been given last.so this kinda goes with what sophie or bouee said

yeah true back then we had a fight over this with Beachlover, because I thought there's no way the LAPD were incompetent enough not to test for lorazepam in the liver and the urine but she said they indeed did not .
I pray she was wrong but I no longer have high hopes .

 

[StacyJ]

Does anyone think Murray will testify?

 

[Soundmind]

Does anyone think Murray will testify?

are you joking? lol

of course no .

 

[StacyJ]

are you joking? lol

of course no .

I don't think he will either..

 

[smoothlugar]

I

'm aware of that . that why I said in total he recieved 200mg , 10 cc to induce, and the fatal dose which killed him. and that's why I belived the urine concentrationS could have been the result of one injection.

I see, but then that last dose wouldn't have been labelled by the coroner as "acute propofol intoxication".

the last dose could not have exceeded the 100mg because the LIVER concentration was also low relatively, if he received an injection before the last one, it would have been reflected in the liver concentration

. I don't know. I thought the concentration in liver was high (6.2ug). What I know is that the liver is the place where metabolization takes place... (Maybe the overdose acted too quickly... and stopped that process in the liver??)

Based on the physical evidence mainly the syringe ,

I don't forget what Murray tried to hide (the 100ml prop vial which was in an IV bag). It is evidence as well.
I'm not suggesting continuous infusion for anesthesia doses, but Murray could have used that vial inside the IV bag using the technique the anesthetist nurse suggests in Trials on that day for infusion for more moderate sedation than anesthesia, but since he was not monitoring and did not have the required equipment, it became an overdose (the acute propofol intoxication). This does not mean the same amounts as for infusion for anesthesia for hours and hours, obviously, but it would be more consistent with the coroner report than just a syringe of 10cc (100mg prop) and would explain the interest of Murray in hiding the 100ml vial.

but what was the point of using it inbetween if lorazepam was used to maintain sleep?

To induce it maybe? I read that for some brief procedures, doctors give propofol because it's fast and that sometimes resort to benzos to maintain sleep.

 

[StacyJ]

Was Michael even aware that he was being given the benzos at all? I just can't see MJ agreeing to all of that crap knowing he had to rehearse that day. How would he be able to rehearse with all of those sedatives in his body? It doesn't make sense to me at all

 

[StacyJ]

Also will we ever find out who in the hell introduced this stuff to MJ as a sleeping aid anyway? whoever put that false sense of security in his head ought to be punished themselves. They took advantage of MJ's illness for the almighty dollar and for that they should be punished.

 

[Autumn II]

I
I see, but then that last dose wouldn't have been labelled by the coroner as "acute propofol intoxication".

EXACTLY! I doubt the coroner made a mistake on that. There was no ambiguity about his ruling of cause of death.

.

I don't know. I thought the concentration in liver was high (6.2ug). What I know is that the liver is the place where metabolization takes place... (Maybe the overdose acted too quickly... and stopped that process in the liver??)

Yes, that seemed high.

I don't forget what Murray tried to hide (the 100ml prop vial which was in an IV bag). It is evidence as well.
I'm not suggesting continuous infusion for anesthesia doses, but Murray could have used that vial inside the IV bag using the technique the anesthetist nurse suggests in Trials on that day for infusion for more moderate sedation than anesthesia, but since he was not monitoring and did not have the required equipment, it became an overdose (the acute propofol intoxication). This does not mean the same amounts as for infusion for anesthesia for hours and hours, obviously, but it would be more consistent with the coroner report than just a syringe of 10cc (100mg prop) and would explain the interest of Murray in hiding the 100ml vial.

See bolded. That seems most likely to me, and yes, that would explain Murray's wanting to hide the 100ml vial. So in that sense, it's a type of infusion designed to keep Michael asleep, but not deeply anesthetized.

Murray was scurrying around, trying to hide things, including the 100ml vial. That is not the behavior of a man who is innocent of making a terrible error. Or, more likely, a series of errors. . . ..

 

[StacyJ]

My thing is why not just use one or the other? why did he have to use both the propofol and the benzos? that was a risky tragedy waiting to happen? Did he not know the dangers of giving someone propofol at home without monitoring the patient's breathing?

 

[Soundmind]

I see, but then that last dose wouldn't have been labelled by the coroner as "acute propofol intoxication".

why not? what is your understanding of the word intoxication?

I don't forget what Murray tried to hide (the 100ml prop vial which was in an IV bag). It is evidence as well.
I'm not suggesting continuous infusion for anesthesia doses, but Murray could have used that vial inside the IV bag using the technique the anesthetist nurse suggests in Trials on that day for infusion for more moderate sedation than anesthesia, but since he was not monitoring and did not have the required equipment, it became an overdose (the acute propofol intoxication). This does not mean the same amounts as for infusion for anesthesia for hours and hours, obviously, but it would be more consistent with the coroner report than just a syringe of 10cc (100mg prop) and would explain the interest of Murray in hiding the 100ml vial.

what about the EMPTY 200mg propofol vial that was found there on the floor ?

he obviously had many 200mg vials , it was time for MJ to wake up, what was the point of wasting 1000mg if he was using only bolus injections here and there instead of using the 100 and 200mg vials?

and keep in mind the very low urine concentration .

To induce it maybe? I read that for some brief procedures, doctors give propofol because it's fast and that sometimes resort to benzos to maintain sleep

and inbetween give bolus injections of propofol? !!!!

 

[kasume]

Was Michael even aware that he was being given the benzos at all? I just can't see MJ agreeing to all of that crap knowing he had to rehearse that day. How would he be able to rehearse with all of those sedatives in his body? It doesn't make sense to me at all

Maybe he wasn't taking propofol. That makes sense. Propofol makes the patient unable to do all that physical work Michael was doing. And yet we saw Michael performing well on stage, great coordination, involved in every aspect of decision making. Medical facts don't lie.

conrad's story is what doesn't make sense!!!

This is a question I asked a nurse not too long ago (who administers propofol frequently) and her answer.

Michael had the chills on the 19th at rehearsals and left around 8 or 9 PM because he was sick. Can the side effects of propofol last all day?

Absolutely. The effects of anesthesia on the brain last for 24 hours. In fact, they will tell you before surgery that your're not allowed to drive, or make any major decisions for 24 hours afterwards. Also, one of the side effects you will often see when someone wakes up after surgery is the shaking chills from both the anesthesia, and also because he OR is kept pretty cool to keep the bacterial load down.

As far as effects lasting all day, we can't forget that Michael was receiving this drug night after night so his body really never had a chance to "completely" clear it and totally recover before receiving another dose.

So not only was michael's coordination and decision making fine, but he was doing all that while his system was never even completley clear and recovered??? :doh:

I don't feel like I'm in the twilight zone.....I just feel like I'm facing a bunch of long nosed wooden puppets!! :mat:

 

[Soundmind]

Maybe he wasn't taking propofol. That makes sense. Propofol renders the patient unable to do all that physical work Michael was doing.

completely untrue, propofol would have reached the urine within half an hour maximum regardless of how much he received , and it would have no effect on him what so ever .

what people feel after surgeries is the effect of the other drugs that are usually mixed with propofol

if MJ was not looking well hours after he woke up, propofol was sure not the cause ,it was Murray's benzos.

There is no way a man would have been expected to perform after he was being sedated for hours using versed and lorazepam, even if MJ survived the concerts would have been a complete disaster .
was MJ aware? my opinion NO , if he wanted to be sedated using benzos , what was the point of receiving bolus injections of propofol?

the amounts found in his urine made no sense medically , it only killed him , I doubt MJ asked for that or knew that's how he was being sedated.

 

[Autumn II]

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2116445/what_is_acute_propofol_intoxication.html

"What exactly is acute propofol intoxication? The Los Angels Coroner has determined that this is the cause of death for pop star Michael Jackson. Most non-medical people will not know exactly what acute propofol intoxication is.

Michael Jackson's acute propofol intoxication was a sudden medication overdose.

Everyone knows what intoxication means and an intoxication of the medicine means essentially the same thing. The victim had too much of the particular medicine and became intoxicated by this. In this case, making the news today the victim had too much propofol at once, and there were traces of other drugs found in his body as well."

 

[kasume]

completely untrue, propofol would have reached the urine within half an hour maximum regardless of how much he received , and it would have no effect on him what so ever .

what people feel after surgeries is the effect of the other drugs that are usually mixed with propofol

if MJ was not looking well hours after he woke up, propofol was sure not the cause ,it was Murray's benzos.

There is no way a man would have been expected to perform after he was being sedated for hours using versed and lorazepam, even if MJ survived the concerts would have been a complete disaster .
was MJ aware? my opinion NO , if he wanted to be sedated using benzos , what was the point of receiving bolus injections of propofol?

the amounts found in his urine made no sense medically , it only killed him , I doubt MJ asked for that or knew that's how he was being sedated.

interesting....thanks for the explanation.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

yeah acute is an important word here imo. acute in the medical worls means quick and short doesnt it. ie that goes with the od of diprivan given quickly through a bolus

 

[StacyJ]

yeah acute is an important word here imo. acute in the medical worls means quick and short doesnt it. ie that goes with the od of diprivan given quickly through a bolus

Exactly! and let's hope that the prosecution and the medical experts will be able to explain this to the jury