Conrad Murray : Michael Broke the Syringe / Key Witnesses Are Undermining Me!

[Soundmind]

no one used this phrase "propofol overdose" . Did you read anywhere in the toxicology report the word 'overdose' ? no ,beside what an investigator stated in the search warrant , the medical specialists did not use this expression.

"concentrations during an abdominal surgery" true , concentrations not AMOUNTS , big difference . No cumulative effect , everything above the average induction dose (50+mg) would result in such high concentrations.

what do you mean by propofol overdose? can you give an estimation of overdose?

an average dose could end your life , could be fatal but it's not really an overdose.

acute intoxication is not always the RESULT of an overdose , MJ died because
under those NORMAL concentrations he should have been intubated and his vital signs should have been monitored , that's how propofol works .

finally, did the prosecutors even use this HUGE word in their argument or questioning? No , speaks volume .

yeah acute is an important word here imo. acute in the medical worls means quick and short doesnt it. ie that goes with the od of diprivan given quickly through a bolus

thank you, this subject was discussed before here , acute meant rapid against chronic .

intoxication , usually for a drug to cause intoxication the dose would be large (overdose) , but propofol causes intoxication at average doses , your system shuts down at normal doses when the equipment is not available to monitor and revive. That's what it means.

the prosecutors said " you are incompetent you did this you did that ...etc" but never once they claimed he was given TOO MUCH , who said MJ was swimming in propofol ? Drew Pinsky? lol

 

[xthunderx2]

coroners report....Immediate cause of Death....Propofol Intoxication ...Other conditions contributing to but NOT related to the immediate cause of death...Benzodiazepine effect. The benzo's added to the sedation effects of the propofol...(respiration)...coroners report plainly states...The propfol was the immediate cause of death.

 

[Autumn II]

coroners report....Immediate cause of Death....Propofol Intoxication ...Other conditions contributing to but NOT related to the immediate cause of death...Benzodiazepine effect. The benzo's added to the sedation effects of the propofol...(respiration)...coroners report plainly states...The propfol was the immediate cause of death.

Right. The coroner ruled that propofol was the "immediate cause of death." (and not the benzos, although they contributed to the "sedation effects" of the propofol) It's clear that Michael received "too much" propofol. If Michael hadn't received "too much" in a particular time-period, he would still be alive. Another term for that is "overdose," i.e., too much medication. That's obvious. The defense may want to dispute the coroner's findings, but that most likely would not be a good idea.

The word "overdose" came from the source cited (above), anyway. (Not my words.)

 

[xthunderx2]

Right. The coroner ruled that propofol was the "immediate cause of death." (and not the benzos, although they contributed to the "sedation effects" of the propofol) It's clear that Michael received "too much" propofol. If Michael hadn't received "too much" in a particular time-period, he would still be alive. Another term for that is "overdose," i.e., too much medication. That's obvious. The defense may want to dispute the coroner's findings, but that most likely would not be a good idea.

The word "overdose" came from the source cited (above), anyway. (Not my words.)

yes he did receive to much propofol....as stated by multiple sources...Michael had enough propofol in his system to knock out an elephant. Seeing as Michael is human and weighed 136lbs (per autopsy) an elephant out wieghed him by TONS....or for a more commonly used phrase...Enough for "major surgery" ....So in using the word "acute"...Michael had been given propofol already.....so yes that last dose pushed his body over the edge and killed him. The defense WILL TRY and dispute that report..BUT they WILL lose. There is NOWAY to discredit that document no matter how they try. Michael died from what it states he died from..THAT cannot be changed.

 

[Autumn II]

yes he did receive to much propofol....as stated by multiple sources...Michael had enough propofol in his system to knock out an elephant. Seeing as Michael is human and weighed 136lbs (per autopsy) an elephant out wieghed him by TONS....or for a more commonly used phrase...Enough for "major surgery" ....So in using the word "acute"...Michael had been given propofol already.....so yes that last dose pushed his body over the edge and killed him. The defense WILL TRY and dispute that report..BUT they WILL lose. There is NOWAY to discredit that document no matter how they try. Michael died from what it states he died from..THAT cannot be changed.

Michael certainly didn't die of receiving TOO LITTLE propofol! According to the coroner's report, it wasn't the benzos that killed him, either. It was the propofol, and the benzos contributed to his cessation of breathing. If not the propofol, then WHAT?

The defense will no doubt have "expert" witnesses to dispute the coroner's report. I can't imagine that the jury would buy it, though.

The core of the case is that Murray was doing something he shouldn't have been doing. He was medicating Michael with propofol, AND benzos, and he lacked additional personnel and rescue equipment. That is the bottom-line, and "amounts" don't matter very much. Michael didn't die from a fall down the stairs -- he died from what Murray was giving him -- and too much of it. That is entirely obvious.

 

[Vici]

I dont which thread I should post this information.. so Ill post it in both

A fan has said she was at court today and all three bodyguards, Dr Tohme Tohme, Randy Phillips and Arnie Klein will NOT be called as witnesses.

Huh? Like i said, This is NOT 100% confirmed by any media yet so lets wait for an accurate confirmation and what I just wrote is a fanreport... personally I find it odd that the bodyguards wont testify

 

[TheChosenOne]

I just found this on Huffington Post.

LOS ANGELES — A judge said Tuesday he will review medical records from Michael Jackson's longtime dermatologist before deciding whether the documents should be turned over to defense attorneys seeking to show the singer was addicted to a powerful painkiller at the time of his death.

Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor will review files from Dr. Arnold Klein that cover the final nine months of Jackson's life.

Klein is fighting the release of the files to attorneys for Dr. Conrad Murray, citing patient confidentiality rules. Murray has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter in the death of the pop star.

Attorneys for Murray say they need to review the files to see if the records support a defense theory that Jackson was suffering from withdrawal from the painkiller Demerol when he died unexpectedly on June 25, 2009.

The lawyers contend Klein frequently injected Jackson with Demerol and the singer became addicted to the treatments.

"Due to Dr. Klein's actions, Mr. Jackson became physiologically and psychologically dependent on Demerol," Murray's attorneys wrote in a motion filed Monday. "Dr. Murray's right to this information in the criminal case greatly outweighs any privilege or privacy rights asserted by Dr. Klein pertaining to the records of Mr. Jackson who is now deceased."

Defense attorney J. Michael Flanagan has said a potential defense expert witness contends Jackson was showing signs of Demerol withdrawal before his death, and that may have complicated his reactions to other medications.

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Authorities have accused Murray of giving the singer a lethal dose of the anesthetic propofol, which is normally administered in hospital settings. His attorneys have said he did not give the singer anything that should have killed him.

Klein's attorney Garo Ghazarian said during the hearing Tuesday that the defense hadn't shown any evidence that Jackson was addicted to Demerol or that any of Klein's treatments were improper.

Pastor said he will review the files on April 6 and also hear from an attorney for Jackson's estate, who have not waived any of the singer's privileges.

Some of Klein's medical records have already been turned over to coroner's officials who investigated Jackson's death.

Murray's attorneys Ed Chernoff and Nareg Gourjian said they have reviewed those files. They agreed to limit any records requests to the last nine months of Jackson's life, when the singer returned to Los Angeles and began preparing for a series of comeback concerts titled "This Is It."

Jury selection in Murray's case begins Thursday. Hundreds of potential jurors are being summoned to a downtown Los Angeles courthouse where they will begin filling out questionnaires that Pastor said currently spans 29 pages and contains 125 questions.

The judge met in closed session with attorneys to finalize the questionnaire. Opening statements are expected to begin on May 9.

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20110322/us-michael-jackson-doctor/

 

[Soundmind]

Attorneys for Murray say they need to review the files to see if the records support a defense theory that Jackson was suffering from withdrawal from the painkiller Demerol when he died unexpectedly on June 25, 2009.

ah I see you want to see , I thought the expert already reviewed the evidence ,made up his mind and determined MJ was a demerol addict .

Some of Klein's medical records have already been turned over to coroner's officials who investigated Jackson's death.

Murray's attorneys Ed Chernoff and Nareg Gourjian said they have reviewed those files. They agreed to limit any records requests to the last nine months of Jackson's life, when the singer returned to Los Angeles and began preparing for a series of comeback concerts titled "This Is It."

so you reviewed parts of the records did not prodcue anything to show demerol addiction and now you want the records of the last NINE months ?
if records of the last three months did not show dependency, the previous six months will ??:smilerolleyes:

 

[xthunderx2]

I just found this on Huffington Post.

LOS ANGELES — A judge said Tuesday he will review medical records from Michael Jackson's longtime dermatologist before deciding whether the documents should be turned over to defense attorneys seeking to show the singer was addicted to a powerful painkiller at the time of his death.

Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor will review files from Dr. Arnold Klein that cover the final nine months of Jackson's life.

Klein is fighting the release of the files to attorneys for Dr. Conrad Murray, citing patient confidentiality rules. Murray has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter in the death of the pop star.

Attorneys for Murray say they need to review the files to see if the records support a defense theory that Jackson was suffering from withdrawal from the painkiller Demerol when he died unexpectedly on June 25, 2009.

The lawyers contend Klein frequently injected Jackson with Demerol and the singer became addicted to the treatments.

"Due to Dr. Klein's actions, Mr. Jackson became physiologically and psychologically dependent on Demerol," Murray's attorneys wrote in a motion filed Monday. "Dr. Murray's right to this information in the criminal case greatly outweighs any privilege or privacy rights asserted by Dr. Klein pertaining to the records of Mr. Jackson who is now deceased."

Defense attorney J. Michael Flanagan has said a potential defense expert witness contends Jackson was showing signs of Demerol withdrawal before his death, and that may have complicated his reactions to other medications.

ADVERTISEMENT

Authorities have accused Murray of giving the singer a lethal dose of the anesthetic propofol, which is normally administered in hospital settings. His attorneys have said he did not give the singer anything that should have killed him.

Klein's attorney Garo Ghazarian said during the hearing Tuesday that the defense hadn't shown any evidence that Jackson was addicted to Demerol or that any of Klein's treatments were improper.

Pastor said he will review the files on April 6 and also hear from an attorney for Jackson's estate, who have not waived any of the singer's privileges.

Some of Klein's medical records have already been turned over to coroner's officials who investigated Jackson's death.

Murray's attorneys Ed Chernoff and Nareg Gourjian said they have reviewed those files. They agreed to limit any records requests to the last nine months of Jackson's life, when the singer returned to Los Angeles and began preparing for a series of comeback concerts titled "This Is It."

Jury selection in Murray's case begins Thursday. Hundreds of potential jurors are being summoned to a downtown Los Angeles courthouse where they will begin filling out questionnaires that Pastor said currently spans 29 pages and contains 125 questions.

The judge met in closed session with attorneys to finalize the questionnaire. Opening statements are expected to begin on May 9.

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20110322/us-michael-jackson-doctor/

so if the coronor DIDN'T think that Klien gave Michael anything he should not of..HOW does the defense think he did....all this is.. is smoke and mirrors thats all. Murray trying to blame someone else again. No Demerol in autopsy report...also Klein has already been investigated.

 

[smoothlugar]

yeah acute is an important word here imo. acute in the medical worls means quick and short doesnt it

More precisely: coming quickly to a dangerous condition.
Also: severe, very great.

everything above the average induction dose (50+mg) would result in such high concentrations.

Not necessarily, also an average induction dose for anesthesia (150mg). The coroner stated in his report that there was a HIGH blood concentration.

acute intoxication is not always the RESULT of an overdose

Usually it is closely related to the dose unless the person suffers from some underlying organic conditions, in whom a small dose of a substance can produce a severe intoxicating effect.
Dr. Calmes said the levels were similar to those found during general anesthesia for major surgery and that patients with these blood levels of propofol must be intubated and ventilated and obviously being monitored.

propofol causes intoxication at average doses , your system shuts down at normal doses when the equipment is not available to monitor and revive.

Ok, so there was acute intoxication as the coroner stated.


Some say that the last dose was given with a 10cc syringe (100mg of propofol) by Murray and that the cause of death was that the injection was given too fast. It could be, but 100mg would be a bit below the levels found during general anesthesia for major surgery, as the anesthesiologist, Dr. Calmes said. It wouldn't explain either the upside down 100ml (1000mg propofol) vial in the IV bag, collected as evidence.

 

[smoothlugar]

Defense attorney J. Michael Flanagan has said a potential defense expert witness contends Jackson was showing signs of Demerol withdrawal before his death, and that may have complicated his reactions to other medications.

Unbelievable!!

Propofol is not a "medication" to be given the way Murray did to start with.

 

[qbee]

I dont which thread I should post this information.. so Ill post it in both

A fan has said she was at court today and all three bodyguards, Dr Tohme Tohme, Randy Phillips and Arnie Klein will NOT be called as witnesses.

Huh? Like i said, This is NOT 100% confirmed by any media yet so lets wait for an accurate confirmation and what I just wrote is a fanreport... personally I find it odd that the bodyguards wont testify

Well that fan gave WRONG information becuase they didnt understand
what was being requested by the defense _ they shouldnt speak and
cause rumors to fly like this if they dont understand court proceedings

Why do you find it odd that the MJ bodyguards do not want to be called as
winesses by Murrays defense team ?? Thats not a good thing.
Why would they agree or want to do that?

 

[Ingelief]

no one used this phrase "propofol overdose" . Did you read anywhere in the toxicology report the word 'overdose' ? no ,beside what an investigator stated in the search warrant , the medical specialists did not use this expression.

"concentrations during an abdominal surgery" true , concentrations not AMOUNTS , big difference . No cumulative effect , everything above the average induction dose (50+mg) would result in such high concentrations.

what do you mean by propofol overdose? can you give an estimation of overdose?

an average dose could end your life , could be fatal but it's not really an overdose.

acute intoxication is not always the RESULT of an overdose , MJ died because
under those NORMAL concentrations he should have been intubated and his vital signs should have been monitored , that's how propofol works .

finally, did the prosecutors even use this HUGE word in their argument or questioning? No , speaks volume .


lol

I thought the levels in his blood where not to much? but like a big surgery? i thought he died of giving to much at once, and like aboce not being monitored??
Or did i read that wrong in the autopsyr?

this is also so true
Absolutely. The effects of anesthesia on the brain last for 24 hours. In fact, they will tell you before surgery that your're not allowed to drive, or make any major decisions for 24 hours afterwards. Also, one of the side effects you will often see when someone wakes up after surgery is the shaking chills from both the anesthesia, and also because he OR is kept pretty cool to keep the bacterial load down.

As far as effects lasting all day, we can't forget that Michael was receiving this drug night after night so his body really never had a chance to "completely" clear it and totally recover before receiving another dose.

I hope they will ask murray this: Why give a performer propofol when its known for being fussy 24 hours? ho was michael going to perform if you put propofol in his body?

 

[4u_n_4me]

Either way, Murray is a Doctor who was responsible for the medication. He shouldn't have left it right out in the open in front of his patient. Dr's always have to have their patient's medicine shielded from them.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Attorneys for Murray say they need to review the files to see if the records support a defense theory that Jackson was suffering from withdrawal from the painkiller Demerol when he died unexpectedly on June 25, 2009.

what i thought they knew for defo mj was a raving demoral addict! *sarcasam* all it is is a case of throw as much crap out there and hope some of it sticks. i guess the med redords the defence already go dont help with that claim so they are going fishing somemore. idiots

 

[StacyJ]

what i thought they knew for defo mj was a raving demoral addict! *sarcasam* all it is is a case of throw as much crap out there and hope some of it sticks. i guess the med redords the defence already go dont help with that claim so they are going fishing somemore. idiots

Exactly!

 

[larry141094]

Jesus Christ. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to enter a discussion on this board. I feel attacked, and I'm really offended by some of you.

That's all I'm going to say. By all means, continue the discussion without my 'squabbling'.

I agree with everything you have said so far, you seem to be one of the only people (besides myself) looking at this from a logical and legal PoV, if people are going to follow this case, you need to push personal feelings aside, and look at the possibilities, i for one REFUSE to call someone guilty without a trial and without evidence.

We didn't like people assuming Michael's guilt after the 2003 charges were brought forward, so let us not stoop to that level

 

[ginvid]

You can't really be serious? They are completely different circumstances. Please find a new analogy. That one does not work.

 

[twinklEE]

You can't really be serious? They are completely different circumstances. Please find a new analogy. That one does not work.

Agree with you on this, the circumstances are completely different. If it wasn't Murray who did it then? Michael? His children? Doggie Kenya?

 

[xthunderx2]

I agree with everything you have said so far, you seem to be one of the only people (besides myself) looking at this from a logical and legal PoV, if people are going to follow this case, you need to push personal feelings aside, and look at the possibilities, i for one REFUSE to call someone guilty without a trial and without evidence.

We didn't like people assuming Michael's guilt after the 2003 charges were brought forward, so let us not stoop to that level

what more evidence to you need a picture of Murray giving Michael the fatal dose and Michael's dead body??? I am sure THAT would be evidence enough?? This is a Michael Jackson forum..NOT a Murray support forum...I suggest you go find one. I am one of the most gentle people you will ever meet...BUT when it comes to defending Michael...sorry...thats were I turn into a tiger. WHY do we have to defend him here...on a MJ sight. Some people are trolls.

 

[kasume]

I agree with everything you have said so far, you seem to be one of the only people (besides myself) looking at this from a logical and legal PoV, if people are going to follow this case, you need to push personal feelings aside, and look at the possibilities, i for one REFUSE to call someone guilty without a trial and without evidence.

Larry, I absolutely agree with you! Sometimes emotions can be dangerous when seeking the truth, because they can block people from seeing the truth. And this is something I've been aware of from the very start of this case, very aware of my own feelings and what they could do. So you can add one more person to those looking at this case WITHOUT their emotions.

And let me say something. Even without my love for Michael, I believe this is much higher than involuntary manslaughter. Like a fan said at the courthouse, the evidence does not support the crime.

As for the fans viewing this case with their emotions attached (if some are), with all the overwhelming evidence, I still can't call it a distraction when they believe in the fact conrad is guilty.

moving on....

A random question, but someone told me that the syringe being tested for fingerprints is a 10cc syringe. Is that right?http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/michael-jackson-autopsy-report?page=20

How much mg maximum of prop. does a 10 cc syringe hold? I read it's not the same for every substance.

And is this what was meant by the broken syringe? Just disconnected, but not broken?

 

[Autumn II]

I agree with everything you have said so far, you seem to be one of the only people (besides myself) looking at this from a logical and legal PoV, if people are going to follow this case, you need to push personal feelings aside, and look at the possibilities, i for one REFUSE to call someone guilty without a trial and without evidence.

We didn't like people assuming Michael's guilt after the 2003 charges were brought forward, so let us not stoop to that level

I think that both emotion and logic are important. This is a MICHAEL JACKSON board, and the emotions. . the love. . cannot be discounted. This is not a "value-neutral" legal discussion board. That does not mean that we cannot be logical, too. The many, many posts in this Case Forum also present the logic. Through LOVE, many of us have dug deeply into the case, and have taken the time to do so.

I take exception to "stooping to their level" comment. The cases (Michael Jackson, and Murray) are in NO way equivalent. You said, "without evidence," when clearly there is MUCH "evidence" already available, and many of us have studied that evidence very carefully. We have the autopsy report. We have Murray's statements made to police. And much, much more. We know about Murray's phone records, and his girlfriend's testimony (from when he was on the phone with her, on June 25). We have testimony from Alvarez, the body-guard, and from the EMTs, and from many other people. This has been testimony given under oath. We have pharmacy records, of how much propofol Murray ordered. So, I'm NOT buying it, that "we have to wait to hear the evidence." We HAVE it. . or at least, a lot of it.

We are HERE, on MJJC, through emotion, i.e. love for Michael. That doesn't mean logic has flown out the window. We have BOTH, and I'd suggest that you read through the many pages of the threads, to find the LOGIC.

What we do NOT need right now, is negativity, and a kind of false impartiality, that suggests that we have not used reason, and logic, as well. This is not a blank-slate, and we DO know, what we need to know. More may come out at trial, but there is enough, already, to be able to make judgments. I do hope you take the time to think about this, and do not post that way again. There are people here who have taken the time to become informed, and who also, love Michael.

 

[smoothlugar]

looking at this from a logical and legal PoV, if people are going to follow this case, you need to push personal feelings aside, and look at the possibilities, i for one REFUSE to call someone guilty without a trial and without evidence.

I think you are not well informed or you have not read enough in relation to the case and to the discussions and exchanges held.
- The legal point of view has ALWAYS been present, with information, questions, doubts, clarifications... California Penal Code, legal procedures... tactics and strategies... from all different members, some with experience in that field, some others sharing what other professionals say (TM ie), or through research, reading, asking and the like.

- I have ALWAYS seen great logic in most relevant discussions ir relation to the trial.

- Our personal feelings sometimes we have "put aside" so as to BE ABLE to hear some testimony in the preliminary, or to be able to read the AR and REMAIN LOGIC, coping with emotions but fighting for what IT IS FAIR.

- When you say "there's no evidence for Murray's guilt" I have to deduce that you have not been following the "case" and you lack a lot of information (see previous post of Autumn).

Now, Larry, imagine MJ was not involved:

- Imagine a cardiologist buys an anesthetic and other sedatives in large amounts to "treat" another person from insomnia, as Murray alleges...
- Imagine he lacks ANY REQUIRED equipment to administer such anesthetic. (No intubation, no monitory equipment, no rescue equipment...nothing).
- Imagine that cardiologist is too busy on his two phones... and doesn't care about his patient, under such anesthetic and in the conditions described...
- Imagine when he realises his patient is not breathing, he waits 20 minutes (from the interruption of his last call) until he calls Security, but only to tell them to come (he could have told them to call emergencies right there).
-Imagine when Security come, he tells them to help him to put away the evidence of that anesthetic (so that paramedics don't see it, which have put him in a very difficult position from the very first moment...).
-Imagine we later know that this specialist, "a cardiologist", was doing CPR incorrectly.
- And finally, imagine that person says all he did was correct and that if the patient died must have been the responsability of the same patient or others, but not his.

I wouldn't feel any pity for such behaviour of a "doctor" who didn't care at all about his patient. If, on top of that, he has LIED too many times, I would be very suspicious of him and I would demand justice to be done. With anyone it would REMAIN being what it is, but in this case, this has happened to Michael... I hope you can see the point.

There was another case in Massachussets, of a doctor, also accused of giving propofol and leaving his patient (to assist other patients in the hospital in that case). He declared himself "guilty" and lost his licence... It was a completely different case... I felt some "sort of grief" (pity or empathy, could "feel" his suffering for his wrong decision even from his picture in the newspaper...) for that doctor, who made a serious mistake but showed he had some consciousness and felt sorry for his mistake, though of course he had to face justice... but no similarity with the present case.

 

[8701girl]

There was another case in Massachussets, of a doctor, also accused of giving propofol and leaving his patient (to assist other patients in the hospital in that case). He declared himself "guilty" and lost his licence... It was a completely different case... I felt some "sort of grief" (pity or empathy...) for that doctor, who made a serious mistake and had some conscious, though of course he had to face justice... but no similarity with the present case.

Yes at least with that doctor he had the decency to admit hes mistake unlike murray

 

[ivy]

I agree with everything you have said so far, you seem to be one of the only people (besides myself) looking at this from a logical and legal PoV, if people are going to follow this case, you need to push personal feelings aside, and look at the possibilities, i for one REFUSE to call someone guilty without a trial and without evidence.

We didn't like people assuming Michael's guilt after the 2003 charges were brought forward, so let us not stoop to that level

there's a difference between 2005 and this case.

2005 case was a "he said - he said" case of no visible hard proof. It solely depended on credibility and refuting what has been said with relevant information.

This case is first of all is determined to be homicide - death by another person. Now what is not known or proven is Murray's level of participation in this event - it could range from a simple mistake to intentional murder.

Also going with what the coroner said , even if you go with Murray's defense theory of Michael self inject / self drink / self OD , still there's the question of why Murray left MJ, why there was propofol available for MJ's reach.

In short this is not a situation where Murray is randomly accused. He played a role in Michael's death , how much is the question left to the jurors.

 

[TheChosenOne]

Thank you Autumn II, 8701girl and Ivy for saying what I intended to come in here and say.

 

[StacyJ]

That doctor in Mass did the right thing by admitting his guilt. Murray is too much of a coward and a creep to admit his wrong doing. He knows he's wrong but he just won't admit it. Giving a man anesthesia as a sleep aid and then not even watching him is criminal. Murray has no business being a doctor if he can't see his culpability in this.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

When you say "there's no evidence for Murray's guilt" I have to deduce that you have not been following the "case" and you lack a lot of information (see previous post of Autumn).

larry is a troll that only posts in certain topics. and shock horror those posts always say the same thing

 

[Petrarose]

larry is a troll that only posts in certain topics. and shock horror those posts always say the same thing

True. I thought everyone recognized that already.

 

[Moulin Rouge]

Yes at least with that doctor he had the decency to admit hes mistake unlike murray

I know, it's despicable. Murray wasn't even in a hospital or using the drug correctly yet he maintins his innocence that he did nothing wrong, Michael would be alive if he did nothing wrong.