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Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

daisy said:
That he can´t fall asleep?
I would normally expect that he gets home, if not to bed and only then decides he´s got sleeping problems.
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that's our own fault for believing Murray was there only to make MJ sleep , MJ needed someone with medical experience to give him IV fluids , he previously suffered many times from dehydration and almost died . He was not there AS HE CLAIMED to inject him with propofol everyday for six weeks, he was there to give him fluids through an IV .
 
Soundmind said:
that's our own fault for believing Murray was there only to make MJ sleep , MJ needed someone with medical experience to give him IV fluids , he previously suffered many times from dehydration and almost died . He was not there AS HE CLAIMED to inject him with propofol everyday for six weeks, he was there to give him fluids through an IV .
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It makes sense that Michael needed to re-hydrate after the demanding rehersals he must have been exhausted.

Soundmind, do you think lorazepam was fully working at the time when Michael was given propofol, if it´s not even in the liver? Or we can´t say?
 
I have a question. In the pulmonary consultation (pages 22-23 of 51) it states the following:

The above findings reflect a depletion of structural and functional reserves of the lung. Reserve depletion is the result of widespread respiratory bronchiolitis and chronic ling inflammation in association with fibrocollagenous scars and organizing/recanalizing thromboemboli os small arteries.
It should be noted that the above lung injury with reserve loss is not considered to be a direct or contributing cause of death. However, such an individual would be especially susceptible to adverse health effects. ​

What does it mean? and especially what does it mean that someone with that in his lungs would be susceptible to adverse health effects? What could it cause? was it dangerous? I mean we saw Michael practicing for This Is It and he didn't seem to have any problems breathing and from what I understand this is a condition that he had for a long time and we didn't see any problems in the history tour and such...

Thanks to anyone who answers
 
daisy said:
It makes sense that Michael needed to re-hydrate after the demanding rehersals he must have been exhausted.

Soundmind, do you think lorazepam was fully working at the time when Michael was given propofol, if it´s not even in the liver? Or we can´t say?
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it was listed as a contributing factor so yes it was fully working , but I did not understand why it was not in hospital blood .

heart blood is taken during the autopsy , I read the peripheral blood is much more accurate in many cases, I don't know what was the significance if there was any
 
abigaillovesmj said:
I have a question. In the pulmonary consultation (pages 22-23 of 51) it states the following:

The above findings reflect a depletion of structural and functional reserves of the lung. Reserve depletion is the result of widespread respiratory bronchiolitis and chronic ling inflammation in association with fibrocollagenous scars and organizing/recanalizing thromboemboli os small arteries.
It should be noted that the above lung injury with reserve loss is not considered to be a direct or contributing cause of death. However, such an individual would be especially susceptible to adverse health effects. ​

What does it mean? and especially what does it mean that someone with that in his lungs would be susceptible to adverse health effects? What could it cause? was it dangerous? I mean we saw Michael practicing for This Is It and he didn't seem to have any problems breathing and from what I understand this is a condition that he had for a long time and we didn't see any problems in the history tour and such...

Thanks to anyone who answers
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It means even if it did not contribute to his death , all measures should have be taken because such an illness COULD HAVE caused complications . Ofcourse Chernoff will pay an expert that would come and tell the jurors that was a contributing factor and MJ lied to the doctor and did not tell him about his medical history

sure then he would have to explain since he was giving mj only 50 mg of propofol why he needed two oxygen tanks daily ? :smilerolleyes:
he brought oxygen tanks because jackson TOLD him he had breathing problems .
 
Soundmind said:
it was listed as a contributing factor so yes it was fully working , but I did not understand why it was not in hospital blood .

heart blood is taken during the autopsy , I read the peripheral blood is much more accurate in many cases, I don't know what was the significance if there was any
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OK thanks, I was wondering whether we could say somethign about the real time of administering lorazepam (second dose, if there was the first at all), as compared with what Murray declares.
 
Probably the reason why MJ lip-synched a number of his songs in concert..his lungs were not optimal. If he got a lower respiratory tract infection he may have a harder time than others.

I don't think Murray was just there to give IV fluids because he had O2 tanks with him.
 
If MJ had breathing problems that required O2, he would be on O2 when he is active much less when he is sleeping, so I don't believe MJ told Murray to bring O2 tanks for that purpose.
 
LisaB said:
Probably the reason why MJ lip-synched a number of his songs in concert..his lungs were not optimal. If he got a lower respiratory tract infection he may have a harder time than others.

I don't think Murray was just there to give IV fluids because he had O2 tanks with him.
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MJ's breathing problems according to your post may have prevented him from singing , would not it be logical that he used those oxygen tanks because he felt he could not breath ? and they were not solely there because of propofol .Under sedation levels you don't need oxygen , only in general anesthesia , MJ hired Murray to sedate him , not to put him in general anesthesia and end up killing him .

MJ suffered from it since he was a teenager , and he was using oxygen tanks WITHOUT PROPOFOL as early as the BAD tour .
 
Gaz said:
Thread closed for cleaning and possible 7 day bans.

MJJC is impartial to accuse otherwise you will seriously be offending me,

And yes I to am becoming sick of this will to hate and scathe those who are not in agreement with either the conspiracy/fantasy theories or that of facts that are known.

If I see one member personally attack stalk accuse (being pro murray/working for murray/AEG/Sony) and vice versa based on their standing on how Michael's life took shape in his last days and months, you will be removed from this fan club.

I will to the bitter end protect and support any member of my community irrelevant of your thoughts and theories.

Now this thread will be cleaned today and my moderation team will remove threads using the words disrespect, if I get to ten you will be removed for 7 days for those who have ignored my request not a week ago.
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Thanks for opening this back up Gaz....:)
 
Beachlover said:
Is it at all possible that Michael called from his cell phone at the Staples Center?
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well IMO..The witness statement (Murray) says that Michael called Murray because he was dehydrated and was not feeling well....I think he would of had to of called him from home...I dont understand WHY he would of called him from Staples.
 
Soundmind said:
well, it is assoctiated with Lupus in nonsmokers -_-
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Lupus isnt even mentioned in the autopsy so how are people supposed to make the connection.

And to say that Michael wasn't examined for Lupus is ridiculous being it was a medical condition he had that would be in his medical files. Vitiligo was mentioned in the autopsy and so should have Lupus.
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
Lupus isnt even mentioned in the autopsy so how are people supposed to make the connection.

And to say that Michael wasn't examined for Lupus is ridiculous being it was a medical condition he had that would be in his medical files. Vitiligo was mentioned in the autopsy and so should have Lupus.
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I agree it's odd but maybe just the symptomsare mentioned like michael had pleurisy but i don't think the autopsy mentions it specifically. Maybe this is another reason some family mambers want the medical records.
 
nena said:
I agree it's odd but maybe just the symptomsare mentioned like michael had pleurisy but i don't think the autopsy mentions it specifically. Maybe this is another reason some family mambers want the medical records.
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also we all know that the family had a independent autopsy done..I wonder what if anything different showed up in that one..

Now I do know that my sister-in law has Lupus...she has problems breathing if she does to much or if she gets nervous...and it also compromises her meaning if she gets sick with a cold...she really gets sick...just thought I would through that out there....I dont know if it means anything to anyone..:)
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
Lupus isnt even mentioned in the autopsy so how are people supposed to make the connection.

And to say that Michael wasn't examined for Lupus is ridiculous being it was a medical condition he had that would be in his medical files. Vitiligo was mentioned in the autopsy and so should have Lupus.
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Read your post , you suggested it was one of the ODD things in the autopsy and it's related to smokers . I said it's associated with lupus in nonsmokers , so where was the odd thing about it ?

whether they stated lupus or not , I care less, they did their job and mentioned all of his health problems . lupus meant vitiligo+ respiratory bronchiolitis...etc

No need to argue more over this issue , you made your point clear and I made my point clear , we shall leave it up to the other members to believe what they want .
 
u cant just cut someone up and go ''oh he's got lupus'' it doesn't work like that Michael had symptoms which may or may not have been associated with lupus. though lupus causes some problems for the person suffering from it it's not like a tumor which is visible.
 
twinklEE said:
u cant just cut someone up and go ''oh he's got lupus'' it doesn't work like that Michael had symptoms which may or may not have been associated with lupus. though lupus causes some problems for the person suffering from it it's not like a tumor which is visible.
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That's one possibility but wasn't he diagnoised with lupus by a doctor so one can agrue that the coroner should have associated they sympotoms with Lupus.
 
Soundmind said:
Read your post , you suggested it was one of the ODD things in the autopsy and it's related to smokers . I said it's associated with lupus in nonsmokers , so where was the odd thing about it ?

whether they stated lupus or not , I care less, they did their job and mentioned all of his health problems . lupus meant vitiligo+ respiratory bronchiolitis...etc

No need to argue more over this issue , you made your point clear and I made my point clear , we shall leave it up to the other members to believe what they want .
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You're mood describes your post here. No need to be angry/hostile or on the attack. Please calm down.

All ailments and diseases need to be documented just like vitiligo is. It has to be there in black and white.
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
Lupus isnt even mentioned in the autopsy so how are people supposed to make the connection.

And to say that Michael wasn't examined for Lupus is ridiculous being it was a medical condition he had that would be in his medical files. Vitiligo was mentioned in the autopsy and so should have Lupus.
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Vitiligo can be seen by a visual inspection of the skin. Lupus does different things to different people, and within the medical community, it can be debated even from doctor to doctor whether one actually has it. There are two types of Lupus also. There are some things that may or may not have to do with Lupus seen on the autopsy but they can not make a positive diagnosis based on these findings alone.

The issue with his lungs from what I have seen and understood from looking at the autopsy was that it left him vulnerable to infections and such. Chronic allergy sufferers can also have these issues. Also, Lupus usually affects multiple organs and they did not report problems with other organs.

His use of oxygen could have been something he felt 'better' using. There are many people that say they feel better when using oxygen. He may have used oxygen at night just because he felt better. By the way, you need a doctors prescription to obtain oxygen.

I think lip syncing is done a lot more than we realize and not just Michael, but many entertainers do it when they have to dance hard during a song. Its near impossible to do aerobics and sing well.
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
You're mood describes your post here. No need to be angry/hostile or on the attack. Please calm down.

All ailments and diseases need to be documented just like vitiligo is. It has to be there in black and white.
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I'll update my state ,I'm no longer angry :D

and I stand by my previous post . They may very well were not 100% sure it was lupus , so they refrained from mentioning it , as you said black or white , probably it was non .
 
The symtoms where there and Michael's medical history which they should have for reference should have allowed them to note that he had Lupus. It does not. Its that simple.
 
Would the autopsy report consult with medical records though? Isn't it simply an observation of the body at the time of death?
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
The symtoms where there and Michael's medical history which they should have for reference should have allowed them to note that he had Lupus. It does not. Its that simple.
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Whats that simple? I am trying to understand your whole point here about the Lupus. It seems to be important to you.

The autopsy is done based on findings they have before them. They don't have to look at the medical record to come up with an autopsy report. In fact, the medical records are not usually used before they complete an autopsy for the simple fact that they are supposed to be checking what is and is not there...not what they presume to be there. They are looking for a cause of death. They check everything for possible cause of death.

After the autopsy is done they can compare records, sure...but it won't change the autopsy findings. Its black and white.
 
StaceyMJ said:
Would the autopsy report consult with medical records though? Isn't it simply an observation of the body at the time of death?
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Forensic science is quite different from what our brains understand. Yes, they may consult the medical records and look closely at certain areas, but they are not going to make a statement if they can not positively say it is true.

What I guess I am saying is that Lupus is not one of the things they saw strong enough evidence for to make a differential diagnosis. They would not use blood tests from other institutions as far as I know.
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
The same 2 against the grain hey? Im not getting caught up in that again thanx Beachlover and Soundmind. Ive said it and Im out.........................
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Dangerous, I'm trying to help you understand or understand why you feel this is so important at least. Does Michael having Lupus change something that I am not aware of?

You came in here and said it should be on the report so it must be important to you so maybe you can help me understand what it is that you feel is wrong or why. I'm not trying to annoy you....really I'm not. I read your posts and much of what you say makes sense. I may not always agree with you but I still try to understand where you are coming from, but here I just don't.
 
Ok. Here is a great link to Diagnosing Lupus: http://www.lupus.org/webmodules/web...earndiagnosing.aspx?articleid=2240&zoneid=524

A doctor who is considering the possibility of lupus will look for signs of inflammation. The signs of inflammation are pain, heat, redness, swelling, and loss of function at a particular place in the body. Inflammation can occur on the inside of your body (your kidneys or heart, for example), on the outside (your skin), or both.

However, there are many challenges in confirming that a person has lupus and not some other disease. Lupus is known as "the great imitator," because its symptoms mimic many other illnesses. Also, lupus symptoms can be unclear, can come and go, and can change. Therefore, a lupus diagnosis is made by a careful review of:

* your current symptoms
* your laboratory test results
* your medical history
* the medical history of your close family members (grandparents, parents, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins)

All of this information may be necessary for a doctor to make a diagnosis of lupus because, for a number of reasons, laboratory tests alone cannot give a definite "yes" or "no" answer.

* No single laboratory test can determine whether a person has lupus.
* Test results that suggest lupus can be due to other illnesses, or can even be seen in healthy people.
* A test result may be positive one time and negative another time.
* Different laboratories may produce different test results.

Frequently Asked Questions

Is there a test for systemic lupus?
There is not a single diagnostic test for systemic lupus. A variety of laboratory tests are used to detect physical changes or conditions in your body that can occur with lupus. Each test result adds more information to the picture your doctor is forming of your illness.
 
Beachlover said:
I think lip syncing is done a lot more than we realize and not just Michael, but many entertainers do it when they have to dance hard during a song. Its near impossible to do aerobics and sing well.
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True. You cannot look to lip syncing and say that the reason is because he had a problem with his lungs.

Like you said many performers use lip syncing because
- it is hard to both sing and dance and it leaves you out of breath. once you start panting, gasping believe me it does not sound nice over the sound system.
- some artists do not sound as well as they do on recordings - (although I'm sure that this does not apply to Michael). recordings are either the best takes or engineered to sound better so some artists may not have that good live singing abilities and therefore they lip sync.
- tours (singing for several hours every other day for a long period of time) eventually take its toll on most artist and their voice and vocal chords become strained, they lose their voice, it gets hoarse etc. so many times artists will lip sync a part of (or even full)concerts to preserve/ rest / heal their voice.
 
ivy said:
True. You cannot look to lip syncing and say that the reason is because he had a problem with his lungs.

Like you said many performers use lip syncing because
- it is hard to both sing and dance and it leaves you out of breath. once you start panting, gasping believe me it does not sound nice over the sound system.
- some artists do not sound as well as they do on recordings - (although I'm sure that this does not apply to Michael). recordings are either the best takes or engineered to sound better so some artists may not have that good live singing abilities and therefore they lip sync.
- tours (singing for several hours every other day for a long period of time) eventually take its toll on most artist and their voice and vocal chords become strained, they lose their voice, it gets hoarse etc. so many times artists will lip sync a part of (or even full)concerts to preserve/ rest / heal their voice.
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Oh Ivy.
BTW My late great aunts name was Ivy............such a beautiful name so pretty.:)
Your post reminded me of TII where Michael says.............''Please understand I am just trying to conserve my throat''............:wub:
My fav bit of TII that is..............I just cant stop loving you......wish I knew how to post u tube vids.............:doh:
Maybe? Maybe I can?

PS editing post as just remembered it was I'll be there that he said I am just trying to conserve my throat!!
will try............howwwld onnnn!!! lol :clapping:
 
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